Rev 11- 1st 3.5 years of Final 7 not a time of peace, after all?

iamlamad said:

No, because if it was in John's present - around 95 AD, Jesus would have been seen at the right hand of the Father - where Stephen SAW Him. If it was in 95 AD, Jesus would have been found worthy in the first search John watched - the one that ended in failure. In fact, if it was the throne room of 95 AD, the search for one worthy would have been successful around 60 years before - around 32 AD when Jesus rose from the dead.

If it was the throne room of 95 AD the Holy Spirit would have been sent down and John would not have seen Him there in the throne room - and in chapter 5 John would not have written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down. All that happened 60 years into the past.

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You are creating your own theory instead of what is present in the text.

....and in chapter 5 John would not have written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down.

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What verse in Revelation 5, exactly, that you are saying John had written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down?

iamlamad said:

You can doubt a 70th week in our future if you want. Many do. But it is going to happen whether or not you believe it.

What happened when Antiochus entered the most holy place in the temple? It was declared polluted. The daily sacrifices had to stop. It was 2300 days before it could be cleansed and the daily sacrifices began again. Antiochus was a type of the beast of Rev. 13, because the Beast will copy what Antiochus did. The moment the man of sin enters the most holy place in the new Jewish temple, the daily sacrifices must cease. It is very likely he will bring some kind of idol with him and place it there.

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just fyi, I am as much of a futurist as you, but of a less supernatural stripe.

And this paragraph about Antiochus doesn't answer my question.

I asked where the 'holy place' is right now. Apparently, you think that it is a future Jewish temple, meaning, it doesn't exist right now - which means one has to be 'anointed', right?

But it is only anointed at the end of 70 '7's which is the basis for the idea of 'Daniel's 70th week' (as per Daniel 9:24). Which means the beast from the abyss (= sea & earth) can only arise from the abyss at the end of this so-called '70th week'.

Also, the beast is not copying Antiochus per se, the beast is copying Jesus (the new covenant will replace animal sacrifices that are going on in service to Ezekiel's temple (and / or the 3rd Temple.)

Julian King said:

Ok, so the Hebrew word 'chetsiy' that has been translated as 'middle' in Daniel 9:27 can also be translated as 'half', which means that, in addition to the verse being translated as saying that 'sacrifices ceased in the middle of the week', it can also be translated as saying that 'sacrifices ceased for half of the week'. Which therefore means that the Bible could be telling us that sacrifices will cease at anytime in the 1st half of the week, which means that they could cease on Day 220, as in the scenario I have presented.

It also of course means if they cease before Day 1260, that they will resume in the 2nd half of the week, 1260 days after they ceased.

So, to return to an earlier question, if chetsiy should be translated as 'half', which would then allow sacrifices to cease in the 1st half of the week, do you know of any other scripture that might prevent sacrifices ceasing on, or after, the day that the 1290 Days start in your scenario?

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to amplify the ambiguity of the Hebrew in Daniel 9, another meaning of 'breaking the covenant' would be 'giving the sanctuary over to foreigners/ Gentiles/ United Nations/ etc'

regarding Ezekiel's temple and a prior temple
Ezekiel 44:6-10

Also
Ezekiel 43

the implication, to me, is that the 3rd Temple will be administered by a sort of 'United Religions' (which has been hinted at here & there, can't find the articles now) (the 'foreigners' in charge of the sanctuary)

Israelis (and / or Christian 'Israel') defile their temple with idols devoted to their dead kings (killed at the 6th Seal seemingly when the kings are announcing the day of the Lord's wrath?) and allow foreigners to administer the sanctuary.

Israel has 'broken the covenant' and at the same time, sacrifices are going on. Put another way, the 3rd temple will have animal sacrifices, in addition to the presence of an idol/ idols devoted to their dead kings.

Because of this 'transgression', then the little horn stops these animal sacrifices. The little horn will also 'break the covenant' with another idol (in the style of Zeus, like Antiochus did).

Douggg said:

There is nothing wrong with the context of the verses I gave. The problem is that you don't understand verses 20 thru 23.

Historic to us - verse 20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.

Historic to us - verse 21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Historic to us - verse 22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

End times - verse 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom [singular, the kingdom of transgressors, the kingdom of the little horn and the ten kings of Daniel 7], when the transgressors are come to the full [the ten kings of Daniel 7, Revelation 17:17], a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The kingdom of the little horn and the ten kings is the EU in its final stage. Yellow vest uprising, brexit, backlash to mass muslim immigration, financial problems, these are all factors that will lead to the ten kings form of government for the EU.

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You can believe that if you choose, and you have chosen. When these things happen, you will discover I was correct all along. The truth is, the entire chapter is about Greece and Persia. Making it about the end times future to us is only your imagination running wild.

tranquil said:

just fyi, I am as much of a futurist as you, but of a less supernatural stripe.

And this paragraph about Antiochus doesn't answer my question.

I asked where the 'holy place' is right now. Apparently, you think that it is a future Jewish temple, meaning, it doesn't exist right now - which means one has to be 'anointed', right?

But it is only anointed at the end of 70 '7's which is the basis for the idea of 'Daniel's 70th week' (as per Daniel 9:24). Which means the beast from the abyss (= sea & earth) can only arise from the abyss at the end of this so-called '70th week'.

Also, the beast is not copying Antiochus per se, the beast is copying Jesus (the new covenant will replace animal sacrifices that are going on in service to Ezekiel's temple (and / or the 3rd Temple.)

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Did you ever think that perhaps Jesus will be anointed KING when the millennial reign begins. That will certainly be AFTER the 70th 7.

Right, the holy of holies is only in imagination right now. But it will soon be manifested in the new temple. No, the beast rises up at the MIDPOINT exactly where John shows us.

Perhaps "copy" is not the right word. The beast is going to repeat what Antiochus did, as it polluting the most holy place.

The big question is, will this new temple be the Millennial temple? I doubt it.

Douggg said:

You are creating your own theory instead of what is present in the text.


What verse in Revelation 5, exactly, that you are saying John had written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down?

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If you have to ask, then it is no wonder you have not understood it yet. I am creating nothing. It is called understanding. The Author went over and over this with me for weeks on end until I got it. (I was SLOW)

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

iamlamad said:

You can believe that if you choose, and you have chosen. When these things happen, you will discover I was correct all along. The truth is, the entire chapter is about Greece and Persia. Making it about the end times future to us is only your imagination running wild.

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The vision regarding the transgression of desolation by the little horn is time of the end - in the text. In Daniel 7, Revelation 17, the ten kings are of the fourth kingdom, which is the Roman Empire. Daniel 8:9 is the geographical location that the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27 will wax strongly from.

Daniel 8:12-13 transgression of desolation (end times)
Daniel 12:11-12 abomination of desolation (end times) , prefigured historically by Antiochus in Daniel 11:31.

lamad, what you should do is go to my post #121 to realize the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation are two different things.

iamlamad said:

If you have to ask, then it is no wonder you have not understood it yet. I am creating nothing. It is called understanding. The Author went over and over this with me for weeks on end until I got it. (I was SLOW)

6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

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In that verse, John had not written, in actual written words, " that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down?"

You are telling me that you have gotten some message from Jesus... as to that is what the written text means. But it is not just an understanding when you say "John had written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down", but a private interpretation.

Whatever message(s) you say you get from Jesus doesn't mean anything to others - because those cannot be validated by others. What you are doing is making a claim that Jesus directed you to some understanding - which it cannot be validated by others whether Jesus actually did what you say.

There are many so called charismatic prophets who spiel out - "the Lord told me" on a almost daily basis, when the Lord didn't tell them.

This means nothing to others...because we did not participate in it.
"The Author went over and over this with me for weeks on end until I got it. (I was SLOW)."

Anyway, you shouldn't be saying "John had written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down" When everyone can see the written text for themselves.

Julian King said:

Daniel 9:24 tells us that Daniel's 70 Weeks will put an end to sin, finish the transgression, and anoint a most holy place/one. Surely the harlot of Babylon's rule and the Beast's hour of authority will be a massively sinful period, which suggests that it will form part of Daniel's 70th Week, and not come after it as you suggest. Or do you think that sin will end and the anointing occur in Daniel's 70th Week, and that then the harlot of Babylon will either begin, or resume, her period of sinfulness, and then we have the Beast's hour of authority which ends when he's defeated by Jesus (Rev 17:14). I think it's much more likely that the period of sinfulness described in Revelation 17 will occur before we see the end to sin prophesied in Daniel 9:24.

What do you think?

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The Beast will have 42 months of authority (not one hour). But after the vials of God's wrath are poured out, he and his armies will be rendered helpless, thereby ending the days full of great tribulation. The days will continue - to the end of the 42 months - ending when Jesus returns and gets him. His reign will be the second half of the week. But as I read the text, the week ends but Jesus does not return then. The Beast's life extends past the end of the week.

You look at a telescope view which covers the week in one verse, while I look at the details of the week. I don't see anywhere in Revelation that Jesus will be anointed during the 70th week - unless perhaps at the 7th trumpet when He gets planet earth back. But He remains in heaven then. Question: is "sin" involved at the end of the 1000 year reign when Satan is loosed and hoards of people surround the Holy City? I would say yes. Therefore, the verse in Daniel must be understood in a different light.

I think what we see in chapters 17 and 18 is a close up view of the destruction of Jerusalem as the angel said: "Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:"

As far as timing, perhaps this is what happens at the 7th vial and great earthquake. Perhaps there is very little time shown by chapters 17 & 18 as Jerusalem is destroyed.

This still leaves the time of the marriage and supper in heaven before Jesus returns. I believe John shows us that the marriage will not take place until AFTER the week ends and after the destruction of "Babylon" as shown in Rev 19:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

I take Revelation in the order it is written. I am convinced that is the way God intended it. As for "putting a stop to sin" (HCSB) I am stumped. Perhaps the meaning is, the 70th week brings on the millennial reign of Christ.

Good questions!

Douggg said:

In that verse, John had not written, in actual written words, " that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down?"

You are telling me that you have gotten some message from Jesus... as to that is what the written text means. But it is not just an understanding when you say "John had written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down", but a private interpretation.

Whatever message(s) you say you get from Jesus doesn't mean anything to others - because those cannot be validated by others. What you are doing is making a claim that Jesus directed you to some understanding - which it cannot be validated by others whether Jesus actually did what you say.

There are many so called charismatic prophets who spiel out - "the Lord told me" on a almost daily basis, when the Lord didn't tell them.

This means nothing to others...because we did not participate in it.
"The Author went over and over this with me for weeks on end until I got it. (I was SLOW)."

Anyway, you shouldn't be saying "John had written that Jesus ascended and the Holy Spirit was sent down" When everyone can see the written text for themselves.

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Is there any question that John penned that verse?

Notice what Jesus said:
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

In other words, when Jesus ascends, He will send the Holy Spirit down. Where was the Holy Spirit seen in chapter 4?

5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

(You can believe this is the Holy Spirit or not: it is up to you. When Jesus was teaching me, He said, “Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4, when I said I would send Him down as soon as I ascended?” Again, you can choose to believe or not: I can only tell you what He said.)

Now look at chapter 5, verse 6:

New International Version
Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain, standing at the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.


King James Bible
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Christian Standard Bible
Then I saw one like a slaughtered lamb standing in the midst of the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth.

Amplified
6 And there between the throne and the four living creatures (beings) and among the elders [[c]of the heavenly Sanhedrin] I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God [the sevenfold Holy Spirit] Who have been sent [on duty far and wide] into all the earth.

Most translations read about the same. We see two actions in this verse: Jesus suddenly appears in the throne room, and the Holy Spirit is sent down - Just as Jesus told the disciples He would do.

You don't want to believe the message of these two chapters. I get that part. They don't fit your preconceptions. But you not getting it does not take away from what John actually wrote. These two chapters tell us a story.

You can search to your heart's content, but in chapter four, John DID NOT see Jesus. Jesus words to be about that:

“When John first saw into the throne room, why didn’t he immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father? There are many scriptures that say that is where I should be. Stephen saw Me at the right hand of the Father years before John saw this vision.”

(Again you are left with a choice: you can believe Jesus spoke to me or not: that is up to you.)

Do those words fit what John wrote? I say they DO. I think I have counted at least 12 verses that tell us Jesus went to be at the right hand of the Father.

I say the reason He was not at the right hand of the Father is that this is a VISION and a vision of the past. John was seeing the throne room while Jesus was on earth. Wouldn't that explain why He was NOT at the right hand of the Father?

Next, there was a search made for one worthy, and John watched it in heaven, on earth and under the earth - and that search ended in failure, so John wrote, "no man was found." We must ask then, WHY was "no man found?" Jesus question to me on this:

“Why did the first search that John watched to find one worthy to break the seals, end in failure? If you read ahead, you see that I was found worthy. Why was I not found worthy at the first search? John wept because that search ended in failure.”

(Again you could believe this happened, or you can doubt it happened. It is up to you. The thing is, you could LEARN here if you were open to learning, which I doubt.)

My answer to this question - why Jesus was not found in this first search John watched - is that Jesus had not yet risen from the dead. He could not be found worthy until He rose from the dead. Again, John is showing us TIMING. You can doubt this for the rest of your life - but this is an opportunity for you to learn.

Next, Jesus WAS found worthy, because He had just risen from the dead. Then John saw Him suddenly appear in the throne room - and he wrote that the Holy Spirit was sent down.

It is a scriptural story. You call this an "interpretation." It is just what the text TELLS US. You know as well as I that the Holy Spirit WAS sent down. And you know what Jesus said - that when He ascended to the Father He would send the Holy Spirit down. I don't understand why you find these two chapters so difficult - unless what they say does not fit your preconceived theory.

I had no preconceptions on these two chapters. I approached God and asked Him. And I waited for Him to answer. As I said, you could learn from what God said to me, or you can stay in your current belief.

Douggg said:

The vision regarding the transgression of desolation by the little horn is time of the end - in the text. In Daniel 7, Revelation 17, the ten kings are of the fourth kingdom, which is the Roman Empire. Daniel 8:9 is the geographical location that the prince who shall come in Daniel 9:26-27 will wax strongly from.

Daniel 8:12-13 transgression of desolation (end times)
Daniel 12:11-12 abomination of desolation (end times) , prefigured historically by Antiochus in Daniel 11:31.

lamad, what you should do is go to my post #121 to realize the transgression of desolation and the abomination of desolation are two different things.

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I don't believe you. It is as simple as that. Antiochus committed an abomination. It stopped the sacrifices. The Little Horn of chapter 7 - or the Beast of Rev. 13 - being the same person, will repeat what Antiochus did.

Who says Jesus was not in heaven when John was called up to heaven? Who do you think called John up?

You are creating your own description - making postulations.

Jesus when he presented himself in the midst of the throne - it was in a manner that testified of why he was worthy, to unseal the book.

John was not having a flashback vision, he was literally in heaven, in the Spirit, at his present time.

iamlamad said:

You know as well as I that the Holy Spirit WAS sent down. And you know what Jesus said - that when He ascended to the Father He would send the Holy Spirit down.

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The Holy Spirit was already in the world. The Holy Spirit just was not in the souls of believers, until Jesus left this world . The Holy Spirit did not have to be sent down (from heaven), as you are saying.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus here on earth....

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

iamlamad said:

I don't believe you. It is as simple as that. Antiochus committed an abomination. It stopped the sacrifices. The Little Horn of chapter 7 - or the Beast of Rev. 13 - being the same person, we repeat what Antiocus did.

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Antiochus in Daniel 11:37 was responsible for the abomination of desolation.

Differently, the little horn in Daniel 8:12-13 will be responsible for the transgression of desolation.

lamad, you need to learn the difference between transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation.

The transgression of desolation will be the 2Thessalonians2:4 act. Then later, the image made of the beast, and placed in the temple with be the abomination of desolation.

I show this on my chart.

Douggg said:

Who says Jesus was not in heaven when John was called up to heaven? Who do you think called John up?

You are creating your own description - making postulations.

Jesus when he presented himself in the midst of the throne - it was in a manner that testified of why he was worthy, to unseal the book.

John was not having a flashback vision, he was literally in heaven, in the Spirit, at his present time.


The Holy Spirit was already in the world. The Holy Spirit just was not in the souls of believers, until Jesus left this world . The Holy Spirit did not have to be sent down (from heaven), as you are saying.

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jesus here on earth....

John 20:21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

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This is just MORE proof John was seeing a VISION. It seems you can't tell the difference between reality and a vision. OF COURSE Jesus called John up, but as soon as John was there, he was seeing a VISION. Go ahead, point out a verse in chapter 4 that shows Jesus there. He wasn't which is one proof John was seeing a vision. By the way, every one of several commentaries all agreed that John was seeing a vision in chapter 4.

I am only understanding what John wrote. I make nothing up. John saw Jesus as a lamb having been slain. I can understand that, for Jesus was the passover lamb. This description was symbolic. Perhaps Jesus looked like he had been beaten and whipped almost to death. John wrote, "as it had been slain." However, you miss the most important point: Jesus had just ascended from earth. He was NOT THERE (in the vision) a moment before. In reality, 60 years before, Jesus spoke to Mary, then ascended. This is what John was seeing in the vision. Oh, the previous verse tells us Jesus had just been found worthy.

Yes, John was literally in heaven, in the Spirit, at his present time in 95 AD, but he was seeing a vision of 60 years in the past. You still don't get it!

The Holy Spirit was already in the world. Yes, in 95 AD the Holy Spirit had been sent down around 60 years previous. You are correct. But IN THE VISION the Holy Spirit was first in the throne room, then JUST THEN sent down as soon as Jesus ascended, another proof that it was a vision.

Jesus was JUST found worthy in the vision...yet another proof it was a vision and not reality. A vision of the past is NOT a difficult concept! However, it is exactly what John is showing us.

Douggg said:

Antiochus in Daniel 11:37 was responsible for the abomination of desolation.

Differently, the little horn in Daniel 8:12-13 will be responsible for the transgression of desolation.

lamad, you need to learn the difference between transgression of desolation and abomination of desolation.

The transgression of desolation will be the 2Thessalonians2:4 act. Then later, the image made of the beast, and placed in the temple with be the abomination of desolation.

I show this on my chart.

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I will agree, there are two different words used: but in the end, the Beast of Rev. 13 will do what Antiochus did. He entered the most holy place in the temple, and so will the man of sin. He put an image of Zeus in the Holy of Holies and the Beast will do the same. Remember, Jesus Himself, prophesying about the Beast called what he will do the abomination of desolation. And from other scriptures we KNOW this will be what divides the week. There goes your argument - as usual - right into the trash.

It seems people try to make mountains out of mole hills but MISS the important texts.

Your chart is wrong - plain and simple fact.

iamlamad said:

OF COURSE Jesus called John up, but as soon as John was there, he was seeing a VISION. Go ahead, point out a verse in chapter 4 that shows Jesus there. He wasn't which is one proof John was seeing a vision

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Jesus was there because he called John up. The whole problem is that you haven't been to heaven yourself, to what is called the throne room, which you have a concept that doesn't take into account the glory of God and brilliance which lightnings and thunders emanated from.

Jesus likely came forth out of that brilliance, and presented himself visually as a lamb slain as a testimony that he was worthy to unseal the book. The slain lamb appearance probably was some transparent visual overlay. We don't know because we weren't there.

Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after the resurrection. He was slain at his crucifixion, three days earlier. When Jesus spoke to Mary, Jesus was in his resurrected body. Mary didn't recognize him, who he was.

iamlamad said:

I will agree, there are two different words used: but in the end, the Beast of Rev. 13 will do what Antiochus did.

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Not just different words, but different concepts.

What Antiochus did regarding the abomination of desolation prefigured the end times event. In similitude. It is actually the false prophet who will have the image placed in the temple, I think, because he is the one who has them who dwell upon the earth make the image. Revelation 13:14.

Interestingly, the Jews in their bible in Daniel 12 refer to the abomination of desolation as being silent, i.e. no life to it.

11And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

It is not until the false prophet gives life - in a seemingly miracle - that the image of the beast should speak. Which that would be one of those working of Satan lying wonders.

Which because in Revelation 13:5, that the world worships the dragon, the coming to life of the image will entail Satan incarnating the image, after Satan is cast down to earth in Revelation 12. I have other verses in Ezekiel 28, that points to this will be the case.

He put an image of Zeus in the Holy of Holies and the Beast will do the same. Remember, Jesus Himself, prophesying about the Beast called what he will do the abomination of desolation.

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The image of Zeus never came to life, nor spoke. Jesus in the KJV referred to Daniel the prophet in regards to the abomination of desolation, and Jesus said...

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Jesus did not say how the image gets into the holy place. But Jesus does say "standing". Daniel says it will be "setup". The Jews in their bible say "placed".

kjv Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Tanach Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety. Daniel - Chapter 12

And from other scriptures we KNOW this will be what divides the week.There goes your argument - as usual - right into the trash

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You make misleading statements, in order to reject what I have been pointing out to you. In the kjv version, it says in the midst of the week, not mid-point.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Douggg said:

Jesus was there because he called John up. The whole problem is that you haven't been to heaven yourself, to what is called the throne room, which you have a concept that doesn't take into account the glory of God and brilliance which lightnings and thunders emanated from.

Jesus likely came forth out of that brilliance, and presented himself visually as a lamb slain as a testimony that he was worthy to unseal the book. The slain lamb appearance probably was some transparent visual overlay. We don't know because we weren't there.

Jesus did not ascend to heaven until after the resurrection. He was slain at his crucifixion, three days earlier. When Jesus spoke to Mary, Jesus was in his resurrected body. Mary didn't recognize him, who he was.

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I looked at every commentary at Bible Hub. All were in agreement John saw a vision in chapter 4. You can imagine all you want. I know the intent of the Author because He told me. As I said before, this would be a great opportunity for you to learn. You forgot, Stephen SAW Jesus at the right hand of the father. John would have too, except he was shown a VISION of the throne room, not the actual throne room of 95 AD.

Douggg said:

Not just different words, but different concepts.

What Antiochus did regarding the abomination of desolation prefigured the end times event. In similitude. It is actually the false prophet who will have the image placed in the temple, I think, because he is the one who has them who dwell upon the earth make the image. Revelation 13:14.

Interestingly, the Jews in their bible in Daniel 12 refer to the abomination of desolation as being silent, i.e. no life to it.

11And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety.

It is not until the false prophet gives life - in a seemingly miracle - that the image of the beast should speak. Which that would be one of those working of Satan lying wonders.

Which because in Revelation 13:5, that the world worships the dragon, the coming to life of the image will entail Satan incarnating the image, after Satan is cast down to earth in Revelation 12. I have other verses in Ezekiel 28, that points to this will be the case.



The image of Zeus never came to life, nor spoke. Jesus in the KJV referred to Daniel the prophet in regards to the abomination of desolation, and Jesus said...

Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Jesus did not say how the image gets into the holy place. But Jesus does say "standing". Daniel says it will be "setup". The Jews in their bible say "placed".

kjv Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Tanach Daniel 12:11 And from the time the daily sacrifice was removed and the silent abomination placed, is one thousand, two hundred, and ninety. Daniel - Chapter 12

You make misleading statements, in order to reject what I have been pointing out to you. In the kjv version, it says in the midst of the week, not mid-point.

Daniel 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

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I have compared the Hebrew from our bibles with the Tanakh in this verse 11 and find them identical. The "silent" is just one translation. Here is another:

11 And from the time that the continual burnt-offering shall be taken away, and the detestable thing that causes appalment set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

The preferred translation of the Hebrew for (midst) is half:
chêtsîy, khay-tsee'; from H2673; the half or middle:—half, middle, mid(-night), midst, part, two parts.

When John used the 1260 day countdown, that PROVES God knows how to divide in half. The problem is, it does not fit your theory. Again I can tell you Jesus' EXACT words to me when my mind got to the word "midst:" "You could find that exact midpoint clearly marked in the book of Revelation."

Sorry, but I am going to take HIS word for this, over yours. He, Jesus said "exact midpoint." His use of 1260 days twice confirms this. God planed for an exact midpoint. I can tell you, it is marked by the 7th trumpet.
I agree: I too suspect that the image will be place in the temple - or a smaller copy of the image. Where we disagree would probably be WHEN it is placed. I agree Jesus used the a word translated "stand." it is the same Greek word that makes up the last half of Apostasia. It is where we get our English word "stationary."

As usual, we disagree on many points. But we did agree on something!