The violence in the OT

Cis.jd

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To which I replied: "If God orders it, it cannot be evil. Though a mortal in error might call it that. However, if they're made aware of the evil they've done, I doubt that absolves them or that a person has the authority to erase their own debt, it just means they're aware of their unfaithfulness to the message. It is up to God whether they're given a chance to repent and be reconsecrated. I'm not sure how Catholics see it, but I've never run across the term "absolve" or "absolution" in scripture." (Because a person might call something evil just because they themselves don't like it, which does not actually determine whether something is good or evil. I thought you were implying that somehow by writing down the evils they had done that would automatically grant them "absolution", since you mentioned them being absolved. But you evidently are not being entirely faithful in the belief that while an individual might escape the human concept of justice no one escapes God's justice. Because only He knows what is in a person's heart.)

Then:

Which I thought indicated that you were concerned with people being deceived into doing evil while thinking it was a mandate from the Almighty.
To which I replied:
"Yes, deception is perhaps not only part of Satan's game, maybe most or all of it.
1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. . . . .
1 Corinthians 6:9 . . . Don’t be deceived. . . .
1 Corinthians 15:33 Don’t be deceived! . . .
Galatians 6:3 For if a man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Galatians 6:7 Don’t be deceived . . .
James 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.
James 1:22 But obey God’s word. Do not just listen to it. If you just listen to it, you fool yourselves.
James 1:26 If anyone among you thinks himself to be religious while he doesn’t bridle his tongue, but deceives his heart, . . .
1 John 1:8 Do we say, ‘We have no wrong ways’? Then we are fooling ourselves, and we do not know what is true
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. . . .
1 John 4:1 Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who don’t confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. . . .

There are many more verses warning you not to be deceived, so it evidently is a common thing and a good idea for you to guard against. I too know firsthand that both self-deception, and even willingly believing the lie of someone else, to get what I wanted at the time have led to my being unfaithful. The Holy Spirit will not suggest to anyone that doing something sinful, selfish, carnal, or outright evil is okay or allowable(even just once); if such a messenger as suggests that sort of thing visits you, or anyone you may know, it is not to be believed."

and then:

To which I replied:
"To clear up what seems to be confusion about the OT, NT, and the nature of God, the angry Father of the OT did not go anywhere or get replaced by the NT. Jesus was sent to give us an example to follow, that if one obeys that example he or she may escape the righteous wrath that the Father has towards sin and evildoers. The law wasn't canceled by His example, but fulfilled, as He said:
"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law" Luke 16:17 Therefore "everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man"Matt7:26 and complete will be his destruction.

More NT verification that God hates sin and sinners
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"2Pet2:12
"And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." 2Peter3:7
" It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God." Heb 10:31
"for our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29"


Again thinking you were really seeking to understand that no human, or group of humans, is the authority on what is good or evil in God's eyes; because finite and flawed humans will be making their evaluations from self-serving, very partial, and finite and flawed opinion-based knowledge. But it occurs to me that you are not really seeking to understand that, but instead are playing devil's advocate, and will have an endless amount of "if"s, "and"s, and "but"s for anything anyone says.

The answer "God ordered it so it's not evil" is a vile answer to justifying the murder of infants in that passage. What's even worse is that you portray disagreement on that as being heathen like.

"If we kill babies with out any divine orders, then it's evil... but if god wants us to do it that makes it good"
"If you are against God ordering to kill babies then you are deceived and following satan". Do you understand how this sounds like? This is the same reasoning that caused the violence during the dark ages, the Salem Witch trials, the burning of people to stakes, and other forms of barbarianism in every religion. All of them had this same reasoning that it's not evil due to being of service to the "orders" of their god.

What makes you different from the terrorists and the people back then who commit murder due to "what god said"? Because you think your god is real? (note, i use "your" because i don't believe in a tyrant god. I don't believe the God of Christianity is evil and just changes what is evil based on his authority)

If this story the killing of infant cannanites was of a different religious book like the Quran or the Vedas, you would see this book and this god as completely evil. Imagine your reaction to Jihadists, satanists, and whatever non-christian religion if their response towards infant murder is justified because "their god is above the laws and whatever he decides is holy". You'd think that is absurd and vile.
 
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Der Alte

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Yes but they where offsprings of Fallen angels and humans.. so this theory that some posters here proposed is that those infants where of this line. You here have responded with the definition of Nephilim as if no one knows who they are or posted miss-info on it.
Your post was understood, you think that all the talks i gave (referencing my old thread) about how God loves animals because of how he described on how they should be killed for consumption was all wrong.
Evidently you did not know what Nephilim were because you said the women they were being married to were cross breeding. Where do you get offspring of fallen angels. Angels can't marry.
Mark 12:25
(25) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Matthew 22:30
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
If you want to discuss what God said please quote the scripture. I think your memory is a bit spotty.
 
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Roidecoeur78

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The answer "God ordered it so it's not evil" is a vile answer to justifying the murder of infants in that passage. What's even worse is that you portray disagreement on that as being heathen like.

"If we kill babies with out any divine orders, then it's evil... but if god wants us to do it that makes it good"
"If you are against God ordering to kill babies then you are deceived and following satan". Do you understand how this sounds like? This is the same reasoning that caused the violence during the dark ages, the Salem Witch trials, the burning of people to stakes, and other forms of barbarianism in every religion. All of them had this same reasoning that it's not evil due to being of service to the "orders" of their god.

What makes you different from the terrorists and the people back then who commit murder due to "what god said"? Because you think your god is real? (note, i use "your" because i don't believe in a tyrant god. I don't believe the God of Christianity is evil and just changes what is evil based on his authority)

If this story the killing of infant cannanites was of a different religious book like the Quran or the Vedas, you would see this book and this god as completely evil. Imagine your reaction to Jihadists, satanists, and whatever non-christian religion if their response towards infant murder is justified because "their god is above the laws and whatever he decides is holy". You'd think that is absurd and vile.
If you truly knew God(as sovereign), and that He has given Jesus Christ all authority(control) over heaven and earth, then you would be filled with peace and assurance that nothing has ever, or will ever, transpire that is outside His plan. And such reactionary and disturbed outbursts, which would likely involve frothing at the mouth if witnessed face to face, would be easily seen for what they are.
 
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Cis.jd

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Evidently you did not know what Nephilim were because you said the women they were being married to were cross breeding. Where do you get offspring of fallen angels. Angels can't marry.
Mark 12:25
(25) For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Matthew 22:30
(30) For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
If you want to discuss what God said please quote the scripture. I think your memory is a bit spotty.

Gen 6:1-4. the "sons of God" are interpreted by many to be fallen angels, hence the interpretation of Nephilims to be the offspring of fallen angels and human women.

Why does one have to be married to have offsprings? It looks like you just want to "refute" me in any manner. Now you are putting a "what the nephilims" are in this debate? Why, do you want those murdered babies to be fully human or something or you see it as "blaspheme" or "atheistic" to suggest other reasons to those passage other than god literally allowing babies to get murdered by his people?
 
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Roidecoeur78

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Prophecy does not teach us non violence or non resistance unless that is all that can be done at the time. It teaches us to overcome the wicked and that certainly involves some use of the sword.
This is a falsehood with no scriptural basis, and is likely a result of being steeped within a militant culture. All that live by the sword will die by the sword.Matt26:52 A primary point included in Jesus' example of living, and the one that His true disciples will obey, is to suffer evil rather than to do it, and to be killed rather than to be one of those that kill. That any attempt to resist, avenge, or preemptively do violence to others before something gets done to you is the same as being an animal (the exact opposite of the spirit). The apostles did not fear the death of their bodies, and were subject to stonings, floggings, slanders, conspiracies, with Paul willingly going to be decapitated while Peter to be crucified upside down. Anyone that's truly a servant of Christ in this world will be hated by this world, because the world is evil(John7:7), and runs on its natural instincts such as pride, lust, greed, hunger, fight or flight, etc. Anyone that is predestined to conform to Christ's example of living and dying will tell the truth to power, even if it mean they risk being hated, harmed, or killed. Along with feeding the poor, healing the sick, loving those that hate you, and even disregarding your own family to do these things, that is the example given.

"I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles."Matt5:39-41
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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This is a falsehood with no scriptural basis, and is likely a result of being steeped within a militant culture. All that live by the sword will die by the sword.Matt26:52 A primary point included in Jesus' example of living, and the one that His true disciples will obey, is to suffer evil rather than to do it, and to be killed rather than to be one of those that kill. That any attempt to resist, avenge, or preemptively do violence to others before something gets done to you is the same as being an animal (the exact opposite of the spirit). The apostles did not fear the death of their bodies, and were subject to stonings, floggings, slanders, conspiracies, with Paul willingly going to be decapitated while Peter to be crucified upside down. Anyone that's truly a servant of Christ in this world will be hated by this world, because the world is evil(John7:7), and runs on its natural instincts such as pride, lust, greed, hunger, fight or flight, etc. Anyone that is predestined to conform to Christ's example of living and dying will tell the truth to power, even if it mean they risk being hated, harmed, or killed. Along with feeding the poor, healing the sick, loving those that hate you, and even disregarding your own family to do these things, that is the example given.

"I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to them the other cheek also. And if anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, hand over your coat as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with them two miles."Matt5:39-41
Ah, and your the disputer of centuries of Christian thought on justice, and just human government. This one I wrote aught to really set you off.
The Second Amendment
upload_2018-12-30_18-41-12.jpeg
 
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Roidecoeur78

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Ah, and your the disputer of centuries of Christian thought on justice, and just human government. This one I wrote aught to really set you off.
The Second Amendment
View attachment 247960
Many will and do call themselves "Christian", without doing anything He said to do. Their declaration is as genuine as if they call themselves an oak tree. They might even actually believe they are an oak tree, but without having a body made of hardwood, without the right kind leaves, without producing acorns, what they are believing and saying is a lie. Or as the bible puts it "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" 2Thes2:11

and

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’" Matt7:22-23
 
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Ken Rank

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Yes, the excessive violence in the Old Testament has bothered many of us. This is why some of us do not believe that God actually issued all of the commands in the Old Testament. Need an example? How about Exodus 21:15, "Whoever strikes his father or mother must be put to death"?
The problem with having a problem here is that I don't think there is a full understanding of what the law was for. While most of the commandments predate Sinai, they were written at Sinai with the judgments and ability to prosecute because, what was once just a people known only by their tribal affiliation, Israel was now to become a nation. And a nation needs laws. So, God said if a 25 year old man beats the tar out of his dad... he deserves to die. You have a problem with that... but then what, think that the literally millions of taxes laws and penalties in the U.S. are fair? Is it wrong that a man can spend his life in prison for rape or murder in a civil case today... but it isn't fair when God says not to do something and doing it comes with a harsh penalty? We lack His mind, we don't know why He said a certain things carries such a penalty, but He did... so as followers and believers we accept it and simply wait until we can ask face to face, "Why?"
 
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Cis.jd

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The problem with having a problem here is that I don't think there is a full understanding of what the law was for. While most of the commandments predate Sinai, they were written at Sinai with the judgments and ability to prosecute because, what was once just a people known only by their tribal affiliation, Israel was now to become a nation. And a nation needs laws. So, God said if a 25 year old man beats the tar out of his dad... he deserves to die. You have a problem with that... but then what, think that the literally millions of taxes laws and penalties in the U.S. are fair? Is it wrong that a man can spend his life in prison for rape or murder in a civil case today... but it isn't fair when God says not to do something and doing it comes with a harsh penalty? We lack His mind, we don't know why He said a certain things carries such a penalty, but He did... so as followers and believers we accept it and simply wait until we can ask face to face, "Why?"
fair point. However, it isn't just us but what about those who don't believe? How can we bring others to God especially since info like this is mainstream around the net?

This is why i think there has to be actual digging. There has to be a biblical and even historical way to answer these things, the sad thing is people here turned out to condone these things including murdering babies. One guy here saw nothing wrong about killing/harming animals because of them not being made in the image of God. What kind of thinking is that?
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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Many will and do call themselves "Christian", without doing anything He said to do. Their declaration is as genuine as if they call themselves an oak tree. They might even actually believe they are an oak tree, but without having a body made of hardwood, without the right kind leaves, without producing acorns, what they are believing and saying is a lie. Or as the bible puts it "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie" 2Thes2:11

and

"Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness!’" Matt7:22-23
Your just as wrong as wrong can be and totally devoid of any understanding of the times and seasons.

I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.
Isaiah 42:1“Behold, My Servant, whom I uphold; My chosen one in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit upon Him; He will bring forth justice to the nations. 2“He will not cry out or raise His voice, Nor make His voice heard in the street. 3“A bruised reed He will not break And a dimly burning wick He will not extinguish; He will faithfully bring forth justice. 4“He will not be disheartened or crushed Until He has established justice in the earth; And the coastlands will wait expectantly for His law.” 5Thus says God the LORD, Who created the heavens and stretched them out, Who spread out the earth and its offspring, Who gives breath to the people on it And spirit to those who walk in it, 6“I am the LORD, I have called You in righteousness, I will also hold You by the hand and watch over You, And I will appoint You as a covenant to the people, As a light to the nations, 7To open blind eyes, To bring out prisoners from the dungeon
Psalm 72:2 He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment. 3 The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. 4 He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor. 5 They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
Psalm 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. 27 All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the families of the nations shall worship before you. 28 For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
Isaiah 60: 3 And nations shall come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your rising. 4 Lift up your eyes all around, and see; they all gather together, they come to you; your sons shall come from afar, and your daughters shall be carried on the hip. 5 Then you shall see and be radiant; your heart shall thrill and exult, because the abundance of the sea shall be turned to you, the wealth of the nations shall come to you. (ESV)
Isaiah 49:6 He says: “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob and to bring back the preserved of Israel; I will make you as a light for the nations, that my salvation may reach to the end of the earth.”...8 Thus said the LORD, In an acceptable time have I heard you, and in a day of salvation have I helped you: and I will preserve you, and give you for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;

Then there are these.
Isaiah 54:14 In righteousness shall you be established: you shall be far from oppression; for you shall not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near you. 15 Behold, they shall surely gather together, but not by me: whoever shall gather together against you shall fall for your sake.....17 No weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against you in judgment you shall condemn.
Isaiah 60:26 And they shall bring the glory and honor of the nations into it 12 For the nation and kingdom that will not serve you shall perish; yes, those nations shall be utterly wasted.
Zechariah 13:8 In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.
Psalm: 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; 8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; 9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honor have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
Daniel 7:27. And the kingdom and empire, and the greatness of the dominion under the whole heaven, will be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all empires shall serve and obey him.
Revelation 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow to it. 3 And many people shall go and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. 4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
A word about this last prophecy. The Lords house is his people. Indisputable NT apostolic declaration. The Mountain of the Lord in prophecy is his invisible kingdom. All nations shall flow to it and say, Come you, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: Where do people go to be taught of the Lord and to learn his ways and walk in his paths? Well for the last 2000 years to a Church, or the Bible or a Christian. They shall beat their swords and their spears into farming instruments? That is a prophecy about how this invisible kingdoms influnce is spread in the earth. The farmer sows the Word. Not by force, not by the sword.
Nations not lifting up sword against nation? The nations that are founded in Biblical principle. Where the Gospel has been been preached for centuries in power are not conquering their neighbors and looting their wealth, selling the captives into slavery. The norm of the ancient world. Or as another similar prophecy says.

Isaiah 11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. 7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. 8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.10 And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
Makes for a nice picture hanging in a child's Sunday school class. But these animals illustrate nations under the influnce of Gods Word, his People, the Gospel, .....or Gods invisible kingdom. (In this age of promise.)
 
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Daniel Martinovich

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That any attempt to resist, avenge, or preemptively do violence to others before something gets done to you is the same as being an animal (the exact opposite of the spirit).
PS. I like how you paint a picture of those who disagree with you as some evil Neanderthal redneck thugs. What about the Christian cop using his arms to save innocents from the mass murderer? Or the Christians soldiers fighting Hitler or the USSR's mass murderers? Are they disobeying Christ's commands? Are we supposed to just allow the mass murdering, psychopathic, genocidal, raping, war mongers who are a minority dominion over mankind to destroy , kill rape and pillage whatever they want?
I have a parable for you Mr. Spiritual. See if you can discern it.
The Parable of John the Baptist
 
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Varangian Christian

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Well, that defines your views. Good and Evil is only defined on what god says no to. So if God says murdering babies is evil - then it's evil but if God tells you to murder babies then it is now holy.

Yes, good and evil are only defined by God and His commands. To think anyone else can define good or evil is heresy.

You debate like a snake, never giving a straight answer. Do you believe morality, good and bad, right and wrong, are only definable by the person, actions and commands of God? Answer without whining, virtue signalling or dodging.

You are aware this is the same thinking of Isis and other Terrorists?

Yes, i am. Are you aware that you have already asked this question several times and each time i gave you the same answer and told you that it was an inane argument?

Again, a terrorist may feel he is justified in the same way Joshua was justified, but only one is actually obeying God and that is the difference.

Yup, and you simply didn't understand that authority and rank doesn't change the fact that it is wrong. You were the first to give the king analogy and it failed.

:doh:

The king analogy showed that even a human king is not subject to the laws he gives his people. That was the purpose of the analogy and it is 100% correct. Stop playing the idiot.

The only way my argument would fail would be if you could show that God has an authority above Him, which is impossible both from a Christian and purely philosophical standpoint.

You sound like a biased devout. It's chirstians like you who give christianity a bad name and i wouldn't blame anybody for choosing not to be a christian if they are going to be associated by people who sees no wrong in murdering babies and animals. That is a religion of an evil god.

Firstly, every Christian should be devout and radical about their faith. You claim not to debate like an atheist but you follow their tactics to a T.

Secondly, are you seriously trying to guilt trip me? This is a theological and philosophical argument, I don't care if you or other secularized humanists get your feelings hurt. Truth is truth.

Thirdly, you have yet to provide any coherent argument for how God would be evil for ordering killings. All you have done is virtue signal about how awful such ideas are and try to use emotional manipulation. Grow a spine and provide straight forward answers and arguments.

You described god to be a tyrant. Right now, you don't care about being good or doing good, you just care about being a servant towards an authority. Right now you are showing the same thought process a islamic terrorist.

Again, for what seems like the hundredth time, my king analogy was used to show that even an earthly king is not subject to the laws he places on his citizens and so God cannot be subject to laws He places on us. I am unsure if you honestly do not have the capacity to understand simple analogies or if you are purposely being manipulative and deceitful.

Who are you to lecture me about what is good? You have not provided any basis for what good even is other than your own subjective preferences!

You think what I am saying, or this "atheistic" programming is worse than you agreeing to infant murdering because god approved it?

If you were in the place of king Saul would you have slaughtered Amelek as God commanded or would you have disobeyed? Going by what you have posted it seems you would have disobeyed, and we all know how that turned out for Saul. ;)

You've confirmed what kind a person you are a gain. Your views are highly disturbing.

Oh no, did i commit a thought crime?

Animals are not made in the image of God and killing them is not murder. You can love animals and it is good to care for them, but calling God evil for killing them is incredibly stupid. Get that hippy Buddhist nonsense out of here.

Ok, i'll answer you by giving you a question.

No wormtongue, answer the questions I gave you with actual straight forward answers.
  • What is good and evil?
  • Who defines good and evil or what is good and evil defined by?
  • Is good eternal or does good rely upon evil for its existence and definition?
  • Who creates, sustains, and takes all life?
I am sick of your bafflegarble.

If this god of yours told you to rape and then murder some 8 year old girl, do you consider it now a good/holy thing? i mean, god commanded it so he does have the authority and since he's ok with it that means it's now good, right?

First off, when did God ever command rape? I do not remember that ever happening in Scripture, so yet again i see you are trying to avoid honest argument by using emotional manipulation. If you had any logic or Scriptural support for your view you could debate honestly, but you don't.

Secondly, I do not believe God would command such a thing now because (a) God never commanded rape before and (b) under the New covenant we are supposed to love everyone as our self. So in the scenario you have proposed we are not even dealing with the God of Christianity but rather a God you have made up purely to try and win an argument.

So to answer your question, if i lived in this alternate reality and this God, who i am assuming you mean to be the supreme omnipotent creator of this reality, commanded me to do the above actions would i do them? Yes, obviously. In this reality such actions would be good as good is defined by God.

See how i provided a straight forward and reasoned answer to your question? Do me the same courtesy and stop the virtue signalling. Begging for brownie points does not make your argument more valid, it just shows how many people share your same secular view.

I pray you let go of your enslavement to humanism which is based in subjectivity and emotions, and place your trust in God as the lawmaker who is the unquestionable judge of reality.
 
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Varangian Christian

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Your ad hominem reaction to this earnest seeker of truth is more likely to push him or her towards atheism.

Do not use words if you do not know what they mean.

AD HOMINEM:
  1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect.
  2. marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.
  3. Definition of AD HOMINEM
I have not engaged in ad hominem as I have based my arguments entirely on Scripture and reason and have answered all his contentions even as he repeats them like a broken record. It is @Cis.jd whose argument would be classified as ad hominem, as it is based entirely on subjective feelings and he repeatedly seeks to attack my character rather than engaging in honest debate.

He is already on the way to atheism as he places subjective human feelings above God and absolute truth. I am en devouring to hammer the foolishness of this depraved secular mindset into his head.

You are responding with authoritarianism and proving their points.

God is authoritarian. “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” - John 15:14

Exactly what points have i proved of his argument, heck, what points has he even made? Tell me now what you were impressed by from @Cis.jd. Was it his denying that morality is based entirely on God? His claims that God has to answer to man's questioning? His inability to give a straight forward answer? What?

My question for you is: if we cannot judge god, how do we know who the true god is? There are many religions claiming their god is the one god - without applying judgement how do we know which is the true god?

Firstly, we know who the true God is by faith and experience. It must be remembered that God reveals Himself to us and our relationship with Him is beyond the material or physical understanding.

Secondly, we use logic, philosophy, history, etc to prove the Christian view of God already laid down in Scripture. Through logical thinking it is proven there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. Through studying history we can find many proofs of the Scriptures reliability in historical accuracy, prophecies, the historicity of Christ, etc. Through comparing the Bible with other holy books we can see it is the only one which has no errors and is entirely consistent within itself. There are many more ways to know the truth of Christianity in comparison to other religions, but in all of these we do NOT judge God, rather we use logic to affirm what He has already said and done.

What it seems you and @Cis.jd are claiming is that we believe the Christian God is the true God based on if He fits into our own subjective ideas of right and wrong. That is plain stupid. I'll let you figure out why.
 
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misput

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fair point. However, it isn't just us but what about those who don't believe? How can we bring others to God especially since info like this is mainstream around the net?

This is why i think there has to be actual digging. There has to be a biblical and even historical way to answer these things, the sad thing is people here turned out to condone these things including murdering babies. One guy here saw nothing wrong about killing/harming animals because of them not being made in the image of God. What kind of thinking is that?
V. C. and others have answered your O. P. very well and you continue to debate, which you said you would not do. Why are you doing so? If you do not understand just be gracious enough to admit it and rely on faith which we all must do to some extent if we are to be counted a child of God. If an unbeliever is letting these kinds of doubts stand between them and a relationship with God that must be worked out through faith. No one will hide behind this kind of doubt in the judgement.
 
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Sparagmos

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Do not use words if you do not know what they mean.

AD HOMINEM:
  1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect.
  2. marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.
  3. Definition of AD HOMINEM
I have not engaged in ad hominem as I have based my arguments entirely on Scripture and reason and have answered all his contentions even as he repeats them like a broken record. It is @Cis.jd whose argument would be classified as ad hominem, as it is based entirely on subjective feelings and he repeatedly seeks to attack my character rather than engaging in honest debate.

He is already on the way to atheism as he places subjective human feelings above God and absolute truth. I am en devouring to hammer the foolishness of this depraved secular mindset into his head.



God is authoritarian. “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” - John 15:14

Exactly what points have i proved of his argument, heck, what points has he even made? Tell me now what you were impressed by from @Cis.jd. Was it his denying that morality is based entirely on God? His claims that God has to answer to man's questioning? His inability to give a straight forward answer? What?



Firstly, we know who the true God is by faith and experience. It must be remembered that God reveals Himself to us and our relationship with Him is beyond the material or physical understanding.

Secondly, we use logic, philosophy, history, etc to prove the Christian view of God already laid down in Scripture. Through logical thinking it is proven there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. Through studying history we can find many proofs of the Scriptures reliability in historical accuracy, prophecies, the historicity of Christ, etc. Through comparing the Bible with other holy books we can see it is the only one which has no errors and is entirely consistent within itself. There are many more ways to know the truth of Christianity in comparison to other religions, but in all of these we do NOT judge God, rather we use logic to affirm what He has already said and done.

What it seems you and @Cis.jd are claiming is that we believe the Christian God is the true God based on if He fits into our own subjective ideas of right and wrong. That is plain stupid. I'll let you figure out why.
  1. appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect.
  2. marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made.
  3. Definition of AD HOMINEM
I have not engaged in ad hominem as I have based my arguments entirely on Scripture and reason and have answered all his contentions even as he repeats them like a broken record. It is @Cis.jd whose argument would be classified as ad hominem, as it is based entirely on subjective feelings and he repeatedly seeks to attack my character rather than engaging in honest debate.

He is already on the way to atheism as he places subjective human feelings above God and absolute truth. I am en devouring to hammer the foolishness of this depraved secular mindset into his head.



God is authoritarian. “Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.” - John 15:14

Exactly what points have i proved of his argument, heck, what points has he even made? Tell me now what you were impressed by from @Cis.jd. Was it his denying that morality is based entirely on God? His claims that God has to answer to man's questioning? His inability to give a straight forward answer? What?



Firstly, we know who the true God is by faith and experience. It must be remembered that God reveals Himself to us and our relationship with Him is beyond the material or physical understanding.

Secondly, we use logic, philosophy, history, etc to prove the Christian view of God already laid down in Scripture. Through logical thinking it is proven there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God. Through studying history we can find many proofs of the Scriptures reliability in historical accuracy, prophecies, the historicity of Christ, etc. Through comparing the Bible with other holy books we can see it is the only one which has no errors and is entirely consistent within itself. There are many more ways to know the truth of Christianity in comparison to other religions, but in all of these we do NOT judge God, rather we use logic to affirm what He has already said and done.

What it seems you and @Cis.jd are claiming is that we believe the Christian God is the true God based on if He fits into our own subjective ideas of right and wrong. That is plain stupid. I'll let you figure out why.
You just insist on being insulting, don’t you?

Your posts are full of ad hominem attacks, and you seem to be more interested in calling this earnest seeker names than you do in helping them understand what you are so proud of knowing. Why would this person listen to you if you are calling them depraved?

You can continue to call my ideas “stupid” simply for disagreeing with you on religious matters, but the OP came here looking for a way to reconcile his faith and scripture and you are pretty much pushing them out the door by acting like a caricature of a self-righteous fundamentalist zealot.

Chillax, dude.
 
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Sparagmos

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If you truly knew God(as sovereign), and that He has given Jesus Christ all authority(control) over heaven and earth, then you would be filled with peace and assurance that nothing has ever, or will ever, transpire that is outside His plan. And such reactionary and disturbed outbursts, which would likely involve frothing at the mouth if witnessed face to face, would be easily seen for what they are.
What outburst are you talking about and what do you mean by frothing at the mouth?
 
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Sparagmos

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The problem with having a problem here is that I don't think there is a full understanding of what the law was for. While most of the commandments predate Sinai, they were written at Sinai with the judgments and ability to prosecute because, what was once just a people known only by their tribal affiliation, Israel was now to become a nation. And a nation needs laws. So, God said if a 25 year old man beats the tar out of his dad... he deserves to die. You have a problem with that... but then what, think that the literally millions of taxes laws and penalties in the U.S. are fair? Is it wrong that a man can spend his life in prison for rape or murder in a civil case today... but it isn't fair when God says not to do something and doing it comes with a harsh penalty? We lack His mind, we don't know why He said a certain things carries such a penalty, but He did... so as followers and believers we accept it and simply wait until we can ask face to face, "Why?"
But it doesn’t say “beat the tar,” it says “strike,” right? Is that the accurate translation?
 
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Sparagmos

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To which I replied: "If God orders it, it cannot be evil. Though a mortal in error might call it that. However, if they're made aware of the evil they've done, I doubt that absolves them or that a person has the authority to erase their own debt, it just means they're aware of their unfaithfulness to the message. It is up to God whether they're given a chance to repent and be reconsecrated. I'm not sure how Catholics see it, but I've never run across the term "absolve" or "absolution" in scripture." (Because a person might call something evil just because they themselves don't like it, which does not actually determine whether something is good or evil. I thought you were implying that somehow by writing down the evils they had done that would automatically grant them "absolution", since you mentioned them being absolved. But you evidently are not being entirely faithful in the belief that while an individual might escape the human concept of justice no one escapes God's justice. Because only He knows what is in a person's heart.)

Then:

Which I thought indicated that you were concerned with people being deceived into doing evil while thinking it was a mandate from the Almighty.
To which I replied:
"Yes, deception is perhaps not only part of Satan's game, maybe most or all of it.
1 Corinthians 3:18 Let no one deceive himself. . . . .
1 Corinthians 6:9 . . . Don’t be deceived. . . .
1 Corinthians 15:33 Don’t be deceived! . . .
Galatians 6:3 For if a man thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he deceives himself.
Galatians 6:7 Don’t be deceived . . .
James 1:16 Don’t be deceived, my beloved brothers.
James 1:22 But obey God’s word. Do not just listen to it. If you just listen to it, you fool yourselves.
James 1:26 If anyone among you thinks himself to be religious while he doesn’t bridle his tongue, but deceives his heart, . . .
1 John 1:8 Do we say, ‘We have no wrong ways’? Then we are fooling ourselves, and we do not know what is true
1 John 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray. . . .
1 John 4:1 Beloved, don’t believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
2 John 1:7 For many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who don’t confess that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. . . .

There are many more verses warning you not to be deceived, so it evidently is a common thing and a good idea for you to guard against. I too know firsthand that both self-deception, and even willingly believing the lie of someone else, to get what I wanted at the time have led to my being unfaithful. The Holy Spirit will not suggest to anyone that doing something sinful, selfish, carnal, or outright evil is okay or allowable(even just once); if such a messenger as suggests that sort of thing visits you, or anyone you may know, it is not to be believed."

and then:

To which I replied:
"To clear up what seems to be confusion about the OT, NT, and the nature of God, the angry Father of the OT did not go anywhere or get replaced by the NT. Jesus was sent to give us an example to follow, that if one obeys that example he or she may escape the righteous wrath that the Father has towards sin and evildoers. The law wasn't canceled by His example, but fulfilled, as He said:
"It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law" Luke 16:17 Therefore "everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man"Matt7:26 and complete will be his destruction.

More NT verification that God hates sin and sinners
"But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption"2Pet2:12
"And by that same word, the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men." 2Peter3:7
" It is a fearful thing to fall into the Hands of the Living God." Heb 10:31
"for our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29"


Again thinking you were really seeking to understand that no human, or group of humans, is the authority on what is good or evil in God's eyes; because finite and flawed humans will be making their evaluations from self-serving, very partial, and finite and flawed opinion-based knowledge. But it occurs to me that you are not really seeking to understand that, but instead are playing devil's advocate, and will have an endless amount of "if"s, "and"s, and "but"s for anything anyone says. And the type of religion you seem to be espousing is not one that is in submission to God's will but one that is essentially secular humanism wrapped in the cloak of easy-believism and cafeteria "Christianity".
I was saying something quite simple and perhaps I wasn’t clear.

I was saying that some of the people who wrote the Old Testament may not actually hav3 been inspired by god, but claim to speak for god for a variety of selfish reasons, one of which being to excuse the atrocities they committed. I didn’t mean absolve before the eyes of god, I meant lying about what happened so that the public wouldn’t hold your sins against you.

A lot of people claim to speak for god.

I’m not really “ concerned” about people doing evil in god’s name, am just pointing out that it is a “thing,” and I’m not going to believe anyone who claims to speak for god then tells me to do something I know to be wrong.
 
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