Approaches to Eschatology

iamlamad

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God is "of the land of Magog." This is a very different place than Assyria.

These two different individuals attack two different locations in Israel at two different times, with two different results.
I think you meant GOG
 
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Douggg

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Isaiah 10:28-32 describes an advance on Jerusalem from the north. But 2 Kings 18:17, 2 Chronicles 32:9, and Isaiah 36:2 all say Sennacherib’s forces came to Jerusalem from Lachish, which was southwest of Jerusalem.
James, isn't it possible that Sennacherib could have come down the west coast of Israel, then once defeating those parts, he then moved north east, and looped around Jerusalem and headed back down to Jerusalem from the north east, as described in Isaiah 10:28-32?
 
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Biblewriter

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James, isn't it possible that Sennacherib could have come down the west coast of Israel, then once defeating those parts, he then moved north east, and looped around Jerusalem and headed back down to Jerusalem from the north east, as described in Isaiah 10:28-32?
I personally conferred with Dr. Ibrim E'phal, the head of the Department of Antiquities from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. (And a curator at the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, where I met him, told me that he is the world's leading authority on the archeology of the Holy Land.) I said to him, "From my reading of the literature I get the distinct impression that there has been extensive evidence of the Assyrian presence found in southern part of ancient Judea, but absolutely nothing has been found in the part that is north of Jerusalem." He answered, with great emphasis, "That's EXACTLY right!"

So not only does such a concept contradict both the historical evidence and the scriptural record, there is also zero archeological evidence to even suggest that such a foray might have taken place.
 
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Douggg

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I personally conferred with Dr. Ibrim E'phal, the head of the Department of Antiquities from the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. (And a curator at the Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago, where I met him, told me that he is the world's leading authority on the archeology of the Holy Land.) I said to him, "From my reading of the literature I get the distinct impression that there has been extensive evidence of the Assyrian presence found in southern part of ancient Judea, but absolutely nothing has been found in the part that is north of Jerusalem." He answered, with great emphasis, "That's EXACTLY right!"
Well, that was over 2500 years ago and the Assyrians may not have stayed in the area north of Jerusalem only for a short time. Maybe a couple of weeks, as they stormed through those towns.
 
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Biblewriter

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Well, that was over 2500 years ago and the Assyrians may not have stayed in the area north of Jerusalem only for a short time. Maybe a couple of weeks, as they stormed through those towns.
Any battle leaves evidence, and an army's stay of even a single night leaves evidence. And the stone and pottery implements they used do not decompose.
 
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Douggg

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Any battle leaves evidence, and an army's stay of even a single night leaves evidence. And the stone and pottery implements they used do not decompose.
James, I personally am not finding the archaeology argument that compelling.

The Micah 5 verses do refer a "the Assyrian" in the end times, it appears. But I would not connect the Isaiah 10:28-32 to it. James, if you had some verse(s) in Isaiah, regarding the Assyrian in Isaiah - as being in the end times, it would be compelling. End times in the text. Like the little horn's transgression of desolation to be in the end times in the text in Daniel 8.

Regarding Micah 5, there is just not enough information to understand, imo. That the verse in Micah 5 cites Nimrod - imo, points to it might be referring to him..
 
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Biblewriter

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James, I personally am not finding the archaeology argument that compelling.

The Micah 5 verses do refer a "the Assyrian" in the end times, it appears. But I would not connect the Isaiah 10:28-32 to it.

There is just not enough information to understand, imo. That the verse in Micah 5 cites Nimrod - imo, points to it might be referring to him..
In Isaiah 10:6, the Lord says of the king of Assyria that “I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.”

Both Hezekiah and his people had been righteous and the Lord promised to save them from Sennacherib. But in the day described in Isaiah 10 the nation will have been ungodly and He will send Assyria to punish them. The first Assyrian was an enemy of God, while the second will actually be His agent.

But this latter day Assyrian does not intend to serve God, “nor does his heart think so.” (Isaiah 10:7) He will therefore be punished “when the LORD has performed all His work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem.” (verse 12) This clearly refers to the future, for the Lord's “work on Mount Zion and on Jerusalem” will not be finished until all prophecy concerning them has been fulfilled. Again, we read in the twentieth verse of this chapter, “And it shall come to pass in that day that the remnant of Israel, And such as have escaped of the house of Jacob, Will never again depend on him who defeated them, But will depend on the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.” This is a clear reference to the last days, for even up to our own time Israel has still not learned to “depend on the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.”

In Isaiah 14, immediately after saying the Assyrian would be destroyed, (verses 24-27) the Lord added, “do not rejoice, all you of Philistia, Because the rod that struck you is broken; For out of the serpent's roots will come forth a viper, And its offspring will be a fiery flying serpent... Wail, O gate! Cry, O city! All you of Philistia are dissolved; For smoke will come from the north, And no one will be alone in his appointed times.” (verses 29-31) In stating that “out of the serpent's roots will come forth a viper” and that “its offspring will be a fiery flying serpent,” this passage clearly sets forth two separate attacks, one in the past (relative to the time referred to) and one in the future. These two attacks are separated in time by an unspecified number of generations, as the second attacker is the “offspring” of the first.

Some assume that the words “the rod that struck you is broken” in this passage refer to the death of Judah’s king Ahaz. This is because the preceding verse (Isaiah 14:28) says “This is the burden which came in the year that King Ahaz died.” But there are two reasons this cannot be correct. First, Ahaz could never be called “the rod that struck”Philistia. Indeed, the very opposite was true. We read in 2 Chronicles 28:18-19 that “The Philistines also had invaded the cities of the lowland and of the South of Judah, and had taken Beth Shemesh, Aijalon, Gederoth, Sochoh with its villages, Timnah with its villages, and Gimzo with its villages; and they dwelt there. For the Lord brought Judah low because of Ahaz king of Israel, for he had encouraged moral decline in Judah and had been continually unfaithful to the Lord.” The last king of Judea that had defeated the Philistines was Uzzaiah, the grandfather of Ahaz. (see 2 Chronicles 26:6-7)

But there is another reason “the rod that struck” Philistia cannot be Ahaz. The second attack in this prophecy is referred to as “smoke” that “will come from the north.” Judea, the land of Ahaz, was east of Philistia, not north of it. The significance of this detail will become plain in the next section of this study when we notice the prophecies about “the king of the North.”

Shortly after this prophecy was given, Sennacherib attacked the land of the Philistines. Some might think this was the second attack mentioned in this prophecy. But this would require that the first attack be one that had been made by either Tiglath-Pileser III or Sargon II. Each of these previous Assyrian kings had been an ancestor of Sennacherib. Each of them had conquered Philistia. And both of them were dead. But the words “the rod that struck you is broken” could not realistically be applied to either of them. The power of Assyria had not been “broken” when either of these kings had died. On the other hand, both Isaiah 37:35 and 2 Kings 19:35 tell of a most remarkable destruction of Sennacherib’s army by “the angel of the Lord.” The words “the rod that struck you is broken” clearly fit this defeat. These facts make it clear that Sennacherib is the first attacker in this prophecy, not the second one. So the second one has to be future.
In the first chapter of Nahum “one Who plots evil against the LORD, A wicked counselor,” (verse 11) comes forth from Nineveh, the ancient capitol of Assyria. (Nahum 2:8 and 3:7) In the next to the last verse of the prophecy, this “wicked counselor” is expressly called the “king of Assyria.” (Nahum 3:18) The Lord declares that He will make “an utter end” of this invasion, adding that “affliction will not rise up a second time.” (Nahum 1:9) He then tells His people that “though I have afflicted you, I will afflict you no more.” (verse 12) The Divine history and many prophecies clearly show that Judah’s affliction did not end at the destruction of Sennacherib. The Assyrian invasion was only the beginning of her great and long affliction, which has not yet ended. Indeed, their greatest affliction is still future.
 
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Douggg

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In Isaiah 10:6, the Lord says of the king of Assyria that “I will send him against an ungodly nation, And against the people of My wrath I will give him charge, To seize the spoil, to take the prey, And to tread them down like the mire of the streets.”

Both Hezekiah and his people had been righteous and the Lord promised to save them from Sennacherib. But in the day described in Isaiah 10 the nation will have been ungodly and He will send Assyria to punish them. The first Assyrian was an enemy of God, while the second will actually be His agent.
Well, Israel, the northern ten tribes went into Assyrian captivity.

And that in Isaiah 10, it is not a second Assyrian.

The Divine history and many prophecies clearly show that Judah’s affliction did not end at the destruction of Sennacherib. The Assyrian invasion was only the beginning of her great and long affliction, which has not yet ended. Indeed, their greatest affliction is still future.
Judah, the southern two tribes, went into Babylonian captivity.
 
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Biblewriter

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Well, Israel, the northern ten tribes went into Assyrian captivity.

And that in Isaiah 10, it is not a second Assyrian.

Judah, the southern two tribes, went into Babylonian captivity.
The first and second Assyrians I spoke of were Sennacherib and the unnamed future one.

And immediately after Sennacherib's attack, the next account in the account in the life of Hezekiah is the story of his sickness and the visit from the Babylonian emissaries. It was the report these emissaries carried back to Babylon which was the direct cause of the Babylonian invasion that came later.
 
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Biblewriter

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If you think we can be so detailed, please draw a map from Isaiah 10:28-32, and show where it's inconsistent with what we "know" of his route from other surviving sources?
I have now added the map, with notes, to my previous post responding to this request.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Actually, I have done that very thing, and the map is included in my forthcoming book, "Keys to Bible Prophecy," which is at the publisher's and is currently scheduled for release in the first quarter of next year.

The prophecy that details this invasion is:

“He has come to Aiath, He has passed Migron; At Michmash he has attended to his equipment. They have gone along the ridge, They have taken up lodging at Geba. Ramah is afraid, Gibeah of Saul has fled. Lift up your voice, O daughter of Gallim! Cause it to be heard as far as Laish; O poor Anathoth! Madmenah has fled, The inhabitants of Gebim seek refuge. As yet he will remain at Nob that day; He will shake his fist at the mount of the daughter of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem.” (Isaiah 10:28-32)

please note the passage I have highlighted in boldfaced red. This says that between Michmash and Geba, "they have gone along the ridge." Examination of a highly detailed relief map shows that there is a 200 meter high (600 foot high) horseshoe shaped ridge that runs from Michmash to Geba, as seen in the shaded relief map shown here.

The following details show the daily progress of this attack. Each stop specifically mentioned is marked by a red star in the map above.

Day 1:

“At Michmash he has attended to his equipment.”

Day 2:

“They have taken up lodging at Geba.”

Day 3:

“As yet he will remain at Nob that day.”

Day 4:

“He will shake his fist at the mount of the daughter of Zion, The hill of Jerusalem.”

This passage describes a defeat of ten cities in only four days. Even by modern standards, this is remarkable progress for an advancing army. There is no strength to resist his advance, for “he shall come against princes as though mortar, As the potter treads clay.” (Isaiah 41:25)
appreciate your scholarship!

route in, from, and back to Judea looks very plausible

How did Sennacherib get to Judea in the first place, though? He didn't just appear on your map... he came from some direction -- did he come in from the "top" of your map ?
 
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Biblewriter

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appreciate your scholarship!

route in, from, and back to Judea looks very plausible

How did Sennacherib get to Judea in the first place, though? He didn't just appear on your map... he came from some direction -- did he come in from the "top" of your map ?
This map does not show the route of Sennacherib. It shows the route of the Assyrian described in Isaiah 7, 10, 14, 30, and 31, in Micah 5, and in every chapter of Nahum. The route followed by Sennacherib was about thirty-five to forty miles west, totally off this map. He himself never even came to Jerusalem, but only sent one of his generals, called the Rabshakeh, who approached from Lachish, which was south of Jerusalem. (Rabshakeh was a title, not a name, as most English translations make it seem.)
 
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YeshuaFan

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How do you get the above to agree with the words of Christ in John 5:27-30, and with the other passages I gave you?

.
Does not state that it was at the same time though, as the saved are raised up, and then 1000 years later the lost!
 
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BABerean2

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Does not state that it was at the same time though, as the saved are raised up, and then 1000 years later the lost!

Joh 5:27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.
Joh 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
Joh 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

The timing of the event is found in Revelation 11:18.

.
 
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AbbaLove

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Not to derail this thread but could someone explain what a theologian means when one says, "l'm reform (calvinism) when it comes to soteriology, but not eschatology." I understand what they imply when it comes to their belief of how one becomes among the "chosen/elect" (soteriology), but not sure of the implication of the eschatology (non-Calvinsim) part. Perhaps you could suggest a Youtube that explains it all.
 
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Douggg

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Not to derail this thread but could someone explain what a theologian means when one says, "l'm reform (calvinism) when it comes to soteriology, but not eschatology." I understand what they imply when it comes to their belief of how one becomes among the "chosen/elect" (soteriology), but not sure of the implication of the eschatology (non-Calvinsim) part. Perhaps you could suggest a Youtube that explains it all.
I think I would ask that question over here ....
Salvation (Soteriology)

probably more theologians there.
 
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claninja

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Isaiah 10:28-32 describes an advance on Jerusalem from the north.

I agree. The Assyrian empire was north of the kingdom of Judah. So Sennacherib and his army would have marched from north to south to advance on Judah.

But 2 Kings 18:17, 2 Chronicles 32:9, and Isaiah 36:2 all say Sennacherib’s forces came to Jerusalem from Lachish, which was southwest of Jerusalem.

I agree. Each account has Sennacherib sending his army to Jerusalem from Lachish

2 Kings 18:17 And the king of Assyria sent the Tartan, the Rab-saris, and the Rabshakeh with a great army from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem

2 Chronicles 32:9 After this, Sennacherib king of Assyria, who was besieging Lachish with all his forces, sent his servants to Jerusalem to Hezekiah king of Judah and to all the people of Judah who were in Jerusalem, saying

Isaiah 36:2 And the king of Assyria sent the Rabshakeha from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem, with a great army


Do you know which side of Jerusalem they arrived at?
2 kings 18:17 And they went up and came to Jerusalem. When they arrived, they came and stood by the conduit of the upper pool, which is on the highway to the Washer’s Field.

Archeologists have found extensive evidence of the Assyrian presence in this southern region, but not in any part of ancient Judea north of Jerusalem.

There is a lot in the Bible that archeology has not found or corroborated yet, that doesn't mean we don't believe the Biblical account.

That is, not along the path described in Isaiah 10:28-32.

According to the Biblical account, in the 14th year of Hezekiah, Sennacherib captured all the fortified cities in Judah, with the exception being Jerusalem. No time frame is mentioned for how long it took for Sennacherib to conquer the fortified cities of Judah

Isaiah 36:1 In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and took them.

2 Chronicles 32:1 After all these acts of faithfulness, Sennacherib king of Assyria came and invaded Judah. He laid siege to the fortified cities, intending to conquer them for himself.

2 Kings 18:13 In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and took them


This correlates with Sennacherib's account of capturing 46 of Judah's fortified cities as well as villages, which were without number, near Jerusalem.

SennacheriAs for Hezekiah, the Jew, who did not submit to my yoke, 46 of his strong, walled cities, as well as the small cities in their neighborhood, which were without number,-by levelling with battering-rams (?) and by bringing up siege-engines (?), by attacking and storming on foot, by mines, tunnels and breaches (?), I besieged and took (those cities).

This also correlates with Josephus' history of Sennecherib. **Notice Josephus states tribe of Benjamin, which is where the 10 cities listed in Isaiah 10:28-32 are located

Antiquities of the Jews Book X chapter 1: It was now the fourteenth year of the government of Hezekiah, King of the two tribes; when the King of Assyria, whose name was Sennacherib, made an expedition against him, with a great army; and took all the cities of the tribe of Judah AND BENJAMIN by force.

You reliance on the word "all" in 2 Kings 18:13 is unfortunate. For that is not the operative word here. The word "fenced" is. It says Sennacherib took all the FENCED cities of Judah. So your argument that this would include the ten cities mentioned in this prophecy simply falls to the ground.

Not following this logic. The bible states that King Sennacherib had captured all of the fortified cities of Judah except Jerusalem. My argument is that I believe that which the Bible states.

Further, Sennacherib indeed, as you have observed, boasted that he had conquered 46 of Hezekiah’s fortified cities, with their neighboring small towns, by the use of siege ramps and battering rams. But you missed the fact that he said he accomplished this by boring holes and making breaches, as well as by relentlessly attacking with foot soldiers. Such a campaign would clearly take a long time. So it could not even possibly be the swift advance described in Isaiah 10:28-32, in which "the Assyrian" was prophesied to defeat ten cities in only three days.

Couple issues with this argument:
1.) 3 days seems to be an assumption based on "at Geba they lodge for the night". This doesn't necessarily mean that this part of the prophecy takes place over 3 days.
2.) An assumption that a battle or siege was done at each city.


Isaiah 10:28-32 He has come to Aiath; he has passed through Migron; at Michmash he stores his baggage; they have crossed over the pass; at Geba they lodge for the night; Ramah trembles; Gibeah of Saul has fled.Cry aloud, O daughter of Gallim! Give attention, O Laishah! O poor Anathoth! Madmenah is in flight; the inhabitants of Gebim flee for safety. This very day he will halt at Nob; he will shake his fistat the mount of the daughter of Zion, the hill of Jerusalem.

Interesting to note, in the Aggadah, Sennacherib's army is recorded as resting at nob and raising a platform prior to attacking Jerusalem.
"After having previously conquered the rest of the world (Meg. 11b), Sennacherib equipped a massive army against Hezekiah, consisting of 45,000 princes, each enthroned in a golden chariot and accompanied by his ladies and courtesans, 80,000 warriors in coat of mail, 60,000 swordsmen, and numerous cavalry (Sanh. 95b). With this vast army Sennacherib marched on Judea in accordance with the disclosures of his astrologers, who warned him that he would fail to capture Jerusalem if he arrived too late. He rested at Nob and from a raised platform observed the Judean capital, which appeared weak and small to him. When his warriors urged him to attack, he bade them rest for one night before storming the city the next day. This delay spared Jerusalem since Saul's sin against the priests at Nob was fully expiated on that very day (Sanh. 95a)." Ginzberg, Legends, 4 (19475), 267–72; 5 (19463), 361–6.

These seven monuments are listed on page 10 and translated on page 129 of “Sennacherib’s Campaign to Judah : new studies,” by William R. Gallagher, Leiden; Boston; Köln: Brill, 1999. This authoritative book clearly presents the current state of historical scholarship on this subject. Working from a purely logical basis, it demonstrates the error in many objections to the historical reliability of Biblical accounts of this campaign. It devotes well over a hundred pages to these accounts, but doesn’t even mention any portion of Isaiah 10:28-32.

From Pages 10-11 of Sennacherib's Campaign to Judah: new studies

"Needless to say, the annals are very biased. Because they were meant to exalt the Assyrian King, the scribes concealed or explained away certain facts which did not fit this picture. There were also problems of space. A lot of information has been omitted from annals and when one tries to reconstruct an event in all its from what remains, one can see how little they have told"

"another problem of the annals is their order. They seem to have been arranged chronologically, but there are cases in which a topical arrange was preferred. The main question is to what extent the chronological order of the annals have been disrupted. The question becomes most crucial for the Assyrian invasion of Philistia and Judah"


"a lot of information has been omitted from the annals". Sennacherib never mentions the path of the 46 fortified cities an neighboring villages he conquered. Thus, based on Sennacherib's annals it is impossible to determine the path that was taken to conquer the 46 fortified cities and un numbered villages of the kingdom of Judah


However, the Bible specifically states that he did take all the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah. Thus, even though we do not know the path based on 2 kings 18-19, 2 Chronicles 32, or Isaiah 36-37, we do know that all the fortified cities were taken. And if we believe that he took all these cities, that would include those in Isaiah 10:28-32.


The best known of the seven monuments left by Sennacherib is often called “The Oriental Institute Prism” because it is held by the Oriental Institute. As this institute is part of the University of Chicago, the monument is also called “The Chicago Prism.” But the Oriental Institute simply calls it the “Clay Prism of Sennacherib.” This is evidently the particular one of these seven monuments you have quoted.

Correct, this contains the quote of Sennacherib attacking 46 fortified cities, as well as other un numbered villages. It's important to notice he never explicitly states the path he took to conquer those 46 fortified cities and un numbered villages. Nor does he mention all 46 names of the cities or un numbered villages.


This monument (and each of the others) lists the cities Sennacherib conquered in this campaign. You incorrectly said that Sennacherib did not state his path as he invaded Judea. His list of the cities conquered clearly show that as he invaded this area he came along the seacoast, not inland through the mountains, which is the route described in Isaiah 10:28-32.

Notice what I specifically stated in post #182: "It never says the path he took to destroy those 46 cities and small villages around Jerusalem, nor are the 46 cities and small villages named."

I stand by that statement. Sennacherib's prism never details the path he took to capture those 46 cities and un numbered small villages.

Do you have a specific quotes from the annals of Sennacherib that state the specific route that he took to capture those 46 fortified cities, as well as un numbered villages?

Comparing the divine account, as recorded in 2 Kings 18, 2 Chronicles 32, and Isaiah 36, with the account left by Sennacherib on his seven monuments, clearly shows that that as he invaded this region, he first pushed south along the seacoast to the southern portion of Judea and conquered that region, and then he came back up north to Jerusalem. (Although Sennacherib himself did not come to Jerusalem, but sent one of his generals there to demand their surrender.)

The biblical account never mentions the entire path he took. The biblical account simply states he took all the fortified cities of Judah in the 14th year of Hezekiah

2 Kings 18:13 In the fourteenth year of King Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria came up against all the fortified cities of Judah and took them.

And that Sennacherib sent an army from Lachish to Jerusalem.

2 Kings 18:17 And the king of Assyria sent the Tartan, the Rab-saris, and the Rabshakeh with a great army from Lachish to King Hezekiah at Jerusalem

The annals of Sennacherib do list a route that he took: He went from victory to victory: Sidon, Ammon, Moab, Edom, Ashkelon, Ekron, and Lachish fell before him.

But this route does not account for the taking of the 46 fortified cities and villages of Judah. Nor does this account for the Bible's claim that the took all the fortified cities in the kingdom of Judah. Additionally, according to the author of Sennacherib's Campaign to Judah: new studies, a lot of information was left out and the order of events that Sennacherib does list as happening in Judah and Philistia are questionable.


The fact that Sennacherib did not follow this route is so well established that A. T. Olmstead quoted Isaiah 10:28-32 in his monumental 650 page “History of Assyria,” with a mocking comment about how badly Hezekiah "blew" this prophecy. (from “History of Assyria,” by A. T. Olmstead, Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1951, pgs. 301 and 302.)

Again, the bible states Sennacherib took all the fortified cities of Judah. Sennacherib states he took 46 fortified cities, as well as an unnumbered amount of villages. Neither the books of Kings or Chronicles nor Sennecharib's annals tell us the route with which he took to conquer all of the cities of Judah (46 fortified cities, un numbered villages). All we know is that he did.

My point here is simply this one point, that it has been thoroughly established that Sennacherib did not invade Judea along the path described in Isaiah 10:28-32.

What has not been established is the path that Sennacherib took to conquer the 46 fortified cities and unnumbered villages that he claimed. What has not been established is the exact path that Sennacherib took to conquer ALL the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah.

What has been established is that according to the Bible, Sennacherib took all the fortified cities of the kingdom of Judah.
 
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