Preterists, how do you answer Israel Only?

yeshuaslavejeff

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QUOTE="mkgal1,]
From Acts------>And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they. Acts 15:7-11
[/QUOTE
The yoke of Jesus, as He Says Somewhere, is easy, and His Burden is Light.
 
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Bladerunner

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That's an interpretation that you're imposing onto Scripture.

Maybe you missed the part that I was trying to emphasize...this:

"we shall be saved in the same manner as they"

and

"made no distinction between us and them"



It's not about "land" and never has been.

The Bible isn't about secular land ownership.

"Israel" = people of God.

Are you understanding that secular Israel being declared a state in 1948 was "Israel back in their land"? Are you using that as support of the fulfillment of Isaiah 11:11? If so - then how was it fulfilled AT THAT TIME that "the root of Jesse stood as a banner for the people" (because those are tied together in that passage)? You can't separate the two.

Isaiah's prophecy doesn't say anything about "land" - the theology that makes sense in my mind is that God is recovering the hearts and devotion of His people. IOW....it was a spiritual awakening that was prophesied.

Isaiah 11:10-11 ~ On that day the root of Jesse will stand as a banner for the peoples. The nations will seek Him, and His place of rest will be glorious. 11On that day the Lord will extend His hand a second time to recover the remnant of His people from Assyria, from Egypt, from Pathros, from Cush,b from Elam, from Shinar,c from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.

Isaiah 11:1-2 ~ There shall come forth a Rod from the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots. The Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the Spirit of wisdom and understanding, the Spirit of counsel and might, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

Good evening mkgal1...good to speak to you again.

Again, in the BODY of CHRIST, we (you and I) are the same as the Messianic JEW. However, according to scriptures, The Remnant of Israel will survive the AoD by Anti-christ/satan in the midst of Daniel's 70th week. They will flee to Petra which is in Northern Jordan, south of Jerusalem. There they will be protected, they will be feed and watered until the 2nd Advent of Jesus Christ. During this time, He will put himself into their hearts and see their sins no more. These people will (in their mortal bodies) will populate the millennium along with the Gentiles that survive Daniel's70th week. These will have 100 years to make a decision to believe in the Lord Jesus. If they do not, They will die and wind up in HELL.

If they do accept Christ, they will be permitted to live through the Millennium under the iron-hand of Jesus Christ. Although, the bible tells us the Jews had Children, it says nothing about any of them dying.

At the end of the millennium, a New Earth and Heaven will be created by God the father.

A good question that I have not been able to answer is, Why are we not told about any Millennium survivors getting a translated Body?

NOTE: I know there are a lot of Churches mostly amellinnialists, who do not believe in a Millennium therefore throw the Book of Revelation to the wind. Revelation is as the other scriptures throughout the Bible are God's WORD.

References to the Millennium in the Holy Bible (KJV):

Old Testament:
1,845 references
in 17-18 Books

New Testament:
318 references
in 22 Books

As you can see, unless one disregards most (40 books) of the Holy Bible, only one conclusion can be made: There will be a Millennium. Now, the question is, WHO will POPULATE it.

I have enjoyed this conversation but unless you have specific questions, I will no longer respond to this subject in this thread.

Thank you again for the rigorous discussion..

Blade
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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There will be a Millennium. Now, the question is, WHO will POPULATE it.
Sorry for just dropping in like this, but I hope/think I agree , but
who ever claimed contrary to all Scripture that there will not be a Millennium !? Why would they do this !?

1 or 2 peoples, here and there? where are they !? (don't really need nor want to know this..... they are in enough trouble already without naming names.... )
 
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Bladerunner

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Sorry for just dropping in like this, but I hope/think I agree , but
who ever claimed contrary to all Scripture that there will not be a Millennium !? Why would they do this !?

1 or 2 peoples, here and there? where are they !? (don't really need nor want to know this..... they are in enough trouble already without naming names.... )

yeshuaslavejeff, Amellinialism is rampant around the worlds churches today and that is about as far as I can GO. This forum/website's rules prohibits any picking out of denominations, religions, etc. for discussion.

Hope you have a great day sir:

Blade
 
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mkgal1

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However, according to scriptures, The Remnant of Israel will survive

They will flee to Petra
Pella is where they - the remnant - FLED to (and survived). Not Petra.

This is history (not future). It happened in 66 A.D. and is recorded in church history.

Apostolic era (33-100)
Main article: Timeline of Church History (Apostolic Era (33-100))
Mark Wilson describes a visit to Pella, an ancient city located in the Perean foothills of the Jordan River where Jesus' followers sought refuge while escaping Jerusalem's destruction.

Before writing my doctoral thesis two decades ago, the only Pella that I knew about was a small town in south central Iowa famous for its windows and doors. But in the course of my research, I discovered fascinating data about another Pella located in the Perean foothills of the Jordan River. In March I finally had the opportunity to visit the Pella located in northwestern Jordan.

Jesus, while looking over the temple mount in Jerusalem shortly before his death, prophesied that its beautiful stones would be thrown down within a generation. He warned that the residents should flee Jerusalem to the mountains when they saw the Roman armies surrounding the city. Jesus’ admonition is found in each of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 24:15–22; Mark 13:14–20; Luke 21:20–24). Perhaps Jesus visited Pella during his visit to the Decapolis (Mark 7:31) and Perea (Matthew 19:1; Mark 10:1), and recalling its secure location, cryptically referred to it in this prophecy. Eusebius’s Church History (3.5.3) recounts that the Jewish followers of Jesus heeded his warning and fled to Pella for safety before Jerusalem’s destruction.

Interestingly, the Pella in Iowa was founded in 1847 by 800 Dutch immigrants seeking religious freedom. Their minister Dominee Hendrik P. Scholte knew his church history and decided to name the new city after its Perean counterpart. Pella, old and new, still stands as a symbol of refuge and hope in a time of great crisis. ~ Pella: A Window on Survival - Biblical Archaeology Society

Quoting linked article about confusion between Petra and Pella------->A lingering fascination of some Christians with Petra comes from speculation of a few Christian groups that the site will someday become a "place of safety" where a small number of end-time Christians will escape the Great Tribulation (Revelation 3:10; 12:14-17 when taken with Daniel 11:31-12:1; Matthew 24:16-21; Luke 21:21-23; Mark 12:14-17). Some confuse Petra with Pella. The latter apparently served as a refuge for Jerusalem Christians in the 66-70 CE Roman war with Jewish zealots in the Holy Land. ~ Petra
 
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Residential Bob

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Sorry for just dropping in like this, but I hope/think I agree , but
who ever claimed contrary to all Scripture that there will not be a Millennium !? Why would they do this !?

1 or 2 peoples, here and there? where are they !? (don't really need nor want to know this..... they are in enough trouble already without naming names.... )
I am one. And with that 1 or 2 other people, that makes approximately 3. :wave:

Revelation 20 is the only chapter of the Bible that mentions a one-thousand year interval, almost as if John mentions it merely in passing, quite in contrast to the great weight that futurists assign it. Certainly, as James Stuart Russell says, a period of consummation of the Messianic kingdom was in order, in which Christ put down all hostile rule, authority, and power (1 Cor 15:24). We see in the Scriptures that this transition from old to new was gradual. The church overwhelmed paganism and Jewish resistance over a period of time, which, as Russell says, was “symbolically represented by the chaining and imprisoning of the dragon in the abyss.”

That exactly one thousand years must be something other than symbolic is questionable. Loose references to symbolize timeframes were not uncommon among the ancients. Josephus, for example, refers to a 600-year interval as the Great Year (Antiquities 1.3.9). Russell explains the symbolism thus:

Respecting the duration of this restriction of satanic power it is not easy to determine; but it seems, on the whole, most in consonance with the symbolical character of the Apocalypse to understand the thousand years as significant of a long but indefinite period. When we have high numbers stated in the Apocalypse they are usually, if not invariably, to be understood indefinitely. For example, it is not to be supposed that the hundred and forty and four thousand of the sealed signify exactly that number, and no more and no less. It would be absurd to say that there were exactly twelve thousand, to a man, saved out of each of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel. The conception is appropriate in a vision, but incredible in a historical statement. In like manner the army of the horsemen in Chap. 9:16 is set down as two hundred millions; but no sane commentator ever ventured to assign to this a precise and literal signification. Following these analogies we are disposed to regard the thousand years as a definite for an indefinite period, covering doubtless more than that space of time, but how much more none can tell.[ii]

Other schools assert that the thousand-year interval does not refer to a timeframe at all, symbolically or otherwise; rather that it implies fullness or immensity (Dt 7:9; Ps 50:10, 84:10). In Chapter 20, therefore, John tells us that the Messiah’s rule on the earth is endless and complete. The Lord did say on the Cross after all that it is finished.


J Stuart Russell, The Parousia: A Critical Inquiry into the New testament Doctrine of Our Lord’s Second Coming (Public Domain, originally published in 1887 in London by T. Fisher Unwin) Kindle eBook.

[ii] Russell.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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It would be absurd to say that there were exactly twelve thousand, to a man, saved out of each of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
I 'almost' thought you might have had a point until I read this,
so , sorry, totally invalidates all in the post.
 
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Bladerunner

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Pella is where they - the remnant - FLED to (and survived). Not Petra.

This is history (not future). It happened in 66 A.D. and is recorded in church history.

Apostolic era (33-100)
Main article: Timeline of Church History (Apostolic Era (33-100))
Mark Wilson describes a visit to Pella, an ancient city located in the Perean foothills of the Jordan River where Jesus' followers sought refuge while escaping Jerusalem's destruction.

Before writing my doctoral thesis two decades ago, the only Pella that I knew about was a small town in south central Iowa famous for its windows and doors. But in the course of my research, I discovered fascinating data about another Pella located in the Perean foothills of the Jordan River. In March I finally had the opportunity to visit the Pella located in northwestern Jordan.

Jesus, while looking over the temple mount in Jerusalem shortly before his death, prophesied that its beautiful stones would be thrown down within a generation. He warned that the residents should flee Jerusalem to the mountains when they saw the Roman armies surrounding the city. Jesus’ admonition is found in each of the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 24:15–22; Mark 13:14–20; Luke 21:20–24). Perhaps Jesus visited Pella during his visit to the Decapolis (Mark 7:31) and Perea (Matthew 19:1; Mark 10:1), and recalling its secure location, cryptically referred to it in this prophecy. Eusebius’s Church History (3.5.3) recounts that the Jewish followers of Jesus heeded his warning and fled to Pella for safety before Jerusalem’s destruction.

Interestingly, the Pella in Iowa was founded in 1847 by 800 Dutch immigrants seeking religious freedom. Their minister Dominee Hendrik P. Scholte knew his church history and decided to name the new city after its Perean counterpart. Pella, old and new, still stands as a symbol of refuge and hope in a time of great crisis. ~ Pella: A Window on Survival - Biblical Archaeology Society

Quoting linked article about confusion between Petra and Pella------->A lingering fascination of some Christians with Petra comes from speculation of a few Christian groups that the site will someday become a "place of safety" where a small number of end-time Christians will escape the Great Tribulation (Revelation 3:10; 12:14-17 when taken with Daniel 11:31-12:1; Matthew 24:16-21; Luke 21:21-23; Mark 12:14-17). Some confuse Petra with Pella. The latter apparently served as a refuge for Jerusalem Christians in the 66-70 CE Roman war with Jewish zealots in the Holy Land. ~ Petra

mkgal1,,please forgive my past writings as I did not intend to offend anyone.

Having said that, I am of a different opinion than that of the Catholic Church and cannot debate nor voice my opinion in this forum.

Again please accept my apologies.

Blade
 
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mkgal1

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No need to apologize. No offense taken. History IS history, though... it's not a denominational interpretation or opinion. Just saying.

I don't know if it matters to you or not, but that church timeline is from the Greek Orthodox Church (not the RC church).

Greek Orthodox Church - Wikipedia
 
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ToBeLoved

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You may already know the I/O position, but I’ll summarize just in case.

Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as he says to the Syrophoenician woman in Matthew 15:24. Paul iterates this sentiment to the Galatian churches, telling them that Jesus came to redeem those under the law (Gal 4:5). As the law condemned only Israelites (and Jews), then redemption did not extend to foreigners.

On top of that, both Jesus and St. Paul use epithets in referring to foreigners; Jesus calls this woman a dog (Mt 15:26) and to foreigners in general as pigs, as in the parable of the prodigal son, and St. Paul calls foreigners barbarians, as in Colossians 3:11.

Some Preterists have despaired of these passages and implications, even to the point of abandoning their faith. I/O advocates are atheists, ultimately. I myself have stood on the edge of the I/O cliff, but in view of historical and cultural context, stopped just short of jumping. And of course I cannot forget my own salvation experience.

Have you ever contemplated I/O? And if so, does it still haunt you in some measure? And how do you combat it?
What we need to understand is the difference between Jesus life and death.

In Jesus life, yes He came to redeem Israel back to Himself and God.

Reading the Old Testament, you know or will see that the Messiah was specifically sent to Israel. Their last chance (besides Christ returning) so to speak.

God always fulfills His promises and their were many converts to Christ, hence the Jerusalem church overseen by James and Peter.

So to get back to the point, in His life He was to Israel or the Hebrews.

However, after they crucified and did not accept Him as the Messiah, in His death and shed blood, His sacrifice as the Lamb of God was for all people.

With Christ’s death, the New Covenant was brought in which is the end of the people group Covenant which was the Old Covenant.

About your reference to the Galatians 4:5 it’s a little misconstrued. All people are judged according to their righteousness according to the Law.

We are all guilty for breaking God’s Law. Just because all people were not part of the Old Covenant.

But in Christ under the New Covenant open to all people with Christ’s death and shed blood, we are all judged by the 10 Commandments which is the holiness of God.

God’s Holiness and what is Holy has not changed, but with Christ’s shed blood, He is our Advocate. He stands in our place to meet God’s Holiness requirements.

I hope this makes sense. Let me know.
 
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mkgal1

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I did some reading. I'd never heard of "Israel Only" until this thread (but preterism is also new to me as well).

The main advocate for I/O that I'm seeing is
Rivers O Feden - correct? I wonder if so many are confusing preterism with this variety - the I/O variety - (because that could explain the strong reaction of rejection we see to hopeful preterism). I/O is far from hopeful. It's also curiously similar to dispensationalism with it's line of distinction between the biological Israelites and everyone else. I can see how it would lead to Athiesm, because it leads people to believe that if they aren't from the biological geneology of the ancient Israelites, then there's no hope of salvation for them. IOW...(according to the I/O view) God excluded us from His plan. I believe that misses the point that God desires all of humanity to be United with Him.
 
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Bladerunner

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What about Focus on the Family's and Zondervan's video series by Ray Vander Laan?

Here's an article about the Jewish revolts:

The Jewish Revolts

Thank you , will read it.... Hope you have a Happy New Year.

Blade
 
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claninja

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You may already know the I/O position, but I’ll summarize just in case.

Jesus came only for the lost sheep of the house of Israel, as he says to the Syrophoenician woman in Matthew 15:24. Paul iterates this sentiment to the Galatian churches, telling them that Jesus came to redeem those under the law (Gal 4:5). As the law condemned only Israelites (and Jews), then redemption did not extend to foreigners.

On top of that, both Jesus and St. Paul use epithets in referring to foreigners; Jesus calls this woman a dog (Mt 15:26) and to foreigners in general as pigs, as in the parable of the prodigal son, and St. Paul calls foreigners barbarians, as in Colossians 3:11.

Some Preterists have despaired of these passages and implications, even to the point of abandoning their faith. I/O advocates are atheists, ultimately. I myself have stood on the edge of the I/O cliff, but in view of historical and cultural context, stopped just short of jumping. And of course I cannot forget my own salvation experience.

Have you ever contemplated I/O? And if so, does it still haunt you in some measure? And how do you combat it?

Late to the party on this one. I've not been on christianforums in a while, as I have actually been in a debate with IO supporter on another forum for the past 6 weeks.

The best argument I have used is one I came across recently while reading through Acts. It involves Paul speaking to the Areopagus in Greece.


Acts 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

Here Paul is quoting from Deuteronomy chapter 32 vs 8:

"When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God"

Paul's understanding of God dividing the nations by separating of the sons of Adam (deut 32:8) is of God making from one, every nation of mankind to the live on the earth and giving them fixed borders and times (acts 17:26). This is likely a reference to the table of nations in genesis 10, as even the IO supporter will agree. And so, regardless if one believes everyone came from Adam (traditional christianity) or they don't (common among IO), this language is not exclusive to biological Israelites only.

Now, if you read to vs 27 of Acts 17, Paul explains God did this (separated and gave fixed borders and times) so that these nations, not exclusive to biological Israel, would seek and perhaps find their way to the one true God.


Acts 17:27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us.

And so the question becomes was God's plan to redeem only those under the law of Moses or to those whom death and sin spread via Adam?
 
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parousia70

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Assuming your theology is correct?

What happens to the nation of Israel now that they are back in their LAND?

Blade

Who's "they"?

You Do realize todays Jews, whether in the land of Israel or not, have no verifiable genetic link to the pre desolation Hebrews, right?

Is your position that anyone who claims to be a Jew Today is automatically inserted into the proverbial "They" of your above question?
 
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parousia70

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Late to the party on this one. I've not been on christianforums in a while, as I have actually been in a debate with IO supporter on another forum for the past 6 weeks.

The best argument I have used is one I came across recently while reading through Acts. It involves Paul speaking to the Areopagus in Greece.


Acts 17:26 And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place,

Here Paul is quoting from Deuteronomy chapter 32 vs 8:

"When the Most High divided the nations, when he separated the sons of Adam, he set the bounds of the nations according to the number of the angels of God"

Paul's understanding of God dividing the nations by separating of the sons of Adam (deut 32:8) is of God making from one, every nation of mankind to the live on the earth and giving them fixed borders and times (acts 17:26). This is likely a reference to the table of nations in genesis 10, as even the IO supporter will agree. And so, regardless if one believes everyone came from Adam (traditional christianity) or they don't (common among IO), this language is not exclusive to biological Israelites only.

Now, if you read to vs 27 of Acts 17, Paul explains God did this (separated and gave fixed borders and times) so that these nations, not exclusive to biological Israel, would seek and perhaps find their way to the one true God.


Acts 17:27 that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him. Yet he is actually not far from each one of us.

And so the question becomes was God's plan to redeem only those under the law of Moses or to those whom death and sin spread via Adam?

Thx for this claninja.
The Preterist Facebook Group I'm in has become a hotbed of I/O adherents.

I've been debating them there for a while.... I searched CF a while back for any I/O related posts and came up empty... I think this thread is the first.
 
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RickReads

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Who's "they"?

You Do realize todays Jews, whether in the land of Israel or not, have no verifiable genetic link to the pre desolation Hebrews, right?

Is your position that anyone who claims to be a Jew Today is automatically inserted into the proverbial "They" of your above question?

Per the Torah, anyone can join Israel. There is no Genetic requirement, never has been. It`s a religious commitment in a country that was designed to be a theocracy.
 
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claninja

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Thx for this claninja.
The Preterist Facebook Group I'm in has become a hotbed of I/O adherents.

I've been debating them there for a while.... I searched CF a while back for any I/O related posts and came up empty... I think this thread is the first.

Yea, I was searching here as well, but I/O seems to be almost unknown outside of facebook and youtube. IMHO it has several good arguments for understanding OT prophecies of the northern kingdom joining the southern kingdom under Christ. However, it lacks in understanding that non biological Israelites (foreigners and strangers) were to be treated as native born, or in other words, they were to be treated as abraham's offspring.

Leviticus 19:34 You must treat the foreigner living among you as native-born and love him as yourself, for you were foreigners in the land of Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

numbers 15:15 The assembly is to have the same statute both for you and for the foreign resident; it is a permanent statute for the generations to come. You and the foreigner shall be the same before the LORD.

Exodus 12:48-49 f a foreigner resides with you and wants to celebrate the LORD’s Passover, all the males in the household must be circumcised; then he may come near to celebrate it, and he shall be like a native of the land. But no uncircumcised man may eat of it. The same law shall apply to both the native and the foreigner who resides among you.”

Even future prophecies demonstrated strangers and foreigners joining a restored Israel.

Isaiah 14:1-2 For the LORD will have compassion on Jacob; once again He will choose Israel and settle them in their own land. The foreigner will join them and unite with the house of Jacob. The nations will escort Israel and bring it to its homeland.

Ezekiel 47:21-23 You are to divide this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners who dwell among you and who have children. You are to treat them as native-born Israelites; along with you, they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. In whatever tribe a foreigner dwells, you are to assign his inheritance there,” declares the Lord GOD.

While I've gotten a few I/O's to admit to non-Israelites joining Israel and receiving inheritance, they then argue salvation ended in 70ad, and no else receives future salvation.
 
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