The Old Covenant and the New Covenant are the same.

reddogs

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Christ was the Son of God establishing the new covenant by perfect obedience to the law of God in fallen human flesh. Jesus was not just a devout Jew living under the old covenant, He was our example of how to live in the covenant with God.

No church or religious institution or denomination can bestow on man a religious experience based on an intimate personal relationship with Christ. This relationship is not given through the acceptance of a dogma, even if it is Biblically correct. Obedience to the commandments and the performing of rituals cannot earn it. The believer can only attain in a constant renewing, growing, and unlimited life with God, or he may slip into a worship in form only.

Paul was so concerned about the slipping into a worship in form only, that he rebuked the churches in Galatia:

Galatians 4:9-11
“9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”

It was necessary to explain to Jews and Gentiles alike the principles of man's salvation as an act of divine grace alone. Since man's obedience and keeping of the commandments could not contribute to his justification, if it was 'grace' alone, why then, obedience? Here we find the balance that excludes obedience as a means of 'earning' salvation but makes true obedience the natural fruit of salvation by faith. Human efforts at salvation by works are replaced by divine omnipotence as the only power to make man ready for the kingdom of righteousness. We must accept it by faith, and completely surrender our lives to Christ.

To show this truth of salvation by faith alone, the apostles in different ways explained the meaning of the old and the new Covenant through their relationship to one another. Too many Christians have failed to grasp the meaning of the two covenants, they were both by faith.

A covenant, in the ancient Near East in general and in Old Testament times specifically, was a solemn promise and/or agreement, often confirmed by an oath. There is still much misunderstanding about the most elementary significance of the covenants, their relationship with law and salvation, and especially to how it relates to Christians today. If you ask the question, "When did the old covenant begin?" most people would say on Sinai, when the law was given. But if you ask, "When did the new covenant begin?" the answers are all over the place, but one text can clarify the situation.

Jeremiah 31:31-33
“31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

This text contains the basic elements of both covenants and also helps in understanding them.

The old covenant has the time, "I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt".
It has the covenant partners, "I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:"
It has the covenant objective, "I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
It has the covenant conditions, "my law"
Now let’s look at the new covenant in Hebrews 8:8-10:

“8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:"

Using the same passage which is repeated, the same elements are found for the New Testament, except for the difference in time.”

The new covenant has the time, "Behold, the days come".
It has the covenant partners, "a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:"
It has the covenant objective, " I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:".
It has the covenant conditions, "my laws"
So except for the time element, there is no difference between the two covenants. The covenant partners are the same, the covenant objective is the same, and the covenant conditions are the same. The old Covenant and the new Covenant are the same, it was by faith and denying self and trusting in God, and we are transformed. We see it here.

Matthew 16:24-25
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 10:1-17
1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.
7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.
12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.
14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.
15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

John 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 12:25-26
25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.
26 If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

The covenants are one and the same, and there is only one gospel, and it is the gospel of Jesus Christ which is of faith. It was always that way from Adam on down. If you have been lead to believe that the apostles preached and taught a different message than that of Christ, you are being deceived. Read, understand, and believe the words of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and all will be well. Accept another gospel, and you will be lost.

1 Corinthians 1:11-13
11 For it hath been declared unto me of you, my brethren, by them which are of the house of Chloe, that there are contentions among you.
12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?

2 John 1:7-9
7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
 
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Tolworth John

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No church or religious institution or denomination can bestow on man a religious experience based on an intimate personal relationship with Christ. This relationship is not given through the acceptance of a dogma, even if it is Biblically correct. Obedience to the commandments and the performing of rituals cannot earn it. The believer can only attain in a constant renewing, growing, and unlimited life with God, or he may slip into a worship in form only.

As you say this shows that the covernants are Not the same.
 
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reddogs

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So what of the Law which as no man has seen the Father, the Son gave after writing it with His own finger:

James 2:8
8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:
9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.
13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The above scriptures are clear reference to the Ten commandments being the perfect law of liberty. Clearly pointing out that love to God and our neighbor is the fulfillment of the law, as both the old and new testaments do in many places. Some try to say that James was referring to the entire Mosaic law (Mitzvot) when he spoke the words of verse 10. Then this would suggest that James completely contradicts the teachings of Paul on the matter, and thus the bible completely contradicts itself. Lets go back to Hebrews for a little context.

Hebrews 8:1-13
1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

The above does not say anything at all about the law of God being done away with. To the contrary, it states that the new covenant will establish the law of God within the minds and hearts of His people. What is clearly being done away with in the above verses, is the old covenant temple, services, and High Priest. They have been replaced by Christ as our High Priest, the temple in heaven where He "ever liveth to make intercession for us", and the spiritual sacrifices of the new covenant which are Christ and Him crucified by the subjection of His body, which is the Church, to the will of God.

These things are clearly taught in the book of Hebrews, and other books of the New Testament. Observe the following -

Hebrews 10:4-10
4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Are we a part of the above body or not. The law of God has not been done away for members of Christ's body, but to the contrary, it has been established within their minds and hearts. So we come to the understanding that the Ten commandments, and the fourth commandment in particular, have not been done away with. Lets look at the Bible and understand:

Colossians 2:10-22
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.
20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men?

Can we call the Ten commandments which God spoke with His own mouth to humanity, and wrote with His own finger in tables of stone, the commandments and doctrines of men? We have to think that through.


God wrote the ten commandments, He would not allow man to do so. Moses wrote the rest, because God would allow man to do so. He carved the former in stone as immovable, and the latter was written by a man as that which would one day pass away. The ceremonial laws pertaining to the nation of Israel simply could not continue to apply in a world where all that the ceremonial laws pointed to, had been fulfilled in Christ. Nor could the civil laws pertaining specifically to the nation of Israel be enforced upon all, once the blessings conferred solely upon the nation of Israel, were opened up to all humanity through the same individual who was verily the Son of God, and the Savior of the entire world.


 
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reddogs

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As you say this shows that the covernants are Not the same.
If we drive in a dusty rough road with a 30 mph sign then on a highway with a 70 mph sign, of course it is different but the Law which we are under is still the same.
 
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reddogs

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Christ is the High Priest of the sanctuary in heaven, which the Lord pitched, and not man. He is seated at the right hand of God the Father, and when we pray and worship Him, we have direct access to the throne of God Himself, through Christ. There is a temple of the new covenant, it is a living temple. It is the Lord Jesus Christ, and the members of His body. This temple is superior to the old covenant temple in every way. There is also a sacrifice of the new covenant, which is superior also to the old covenant sacrifices in every way. It is of course the Lord Jesus Christ, but also the members of His body, when they sacrifice there own will, to that of the will of the Word of God.

Romans 12:1-2
1I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.
2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

No one needs a temple built with the hands of men, with sacrifices to offer in order to keep the Sabbath, which is no longer, as the new covenant Christian has all of these things and more. The purpose of the sanctuary and it’s services is fulfilled in the Christians life, in a better way than that of the old covenant temple and sacrifices. Nevertheless, the Sabbath was instituted in a perfect world where there was no need of a temple for intercession, and it will be observed in the new heaven and earth.

Isaiah 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
 
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gadar perets

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The entire Old Covenant had to be abolished and a new one created that would be profitable to a people full of faults. This new covenant would be founded upon a law that was written in their hearts rather than on tables of stone. Through the indwelling Spirit of Messiah, our hearts and minds would be changed. As we abide in the living Torah (Messiah) the Torah would be written on our hearts. As the mind of Messiah formed in us, a mind that was obedient to Torah, Torah would be written in our minds.

This is why Paul wrote the following in 2 Cor 3:9-11:

“For if the ministration of condemnation [O.C.] be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness [N.C.] exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious [O.C.] , much more that which remaineth is glorious [N.C.].”
This new covenant would also include:
  • a better sacrifice in the blood of Messiah Yeshua vs. animal blood (Heb 9:23)
  • a better mediator in Messiah vs. Moses (Heb 8:6; 9:15, 24; 12:24; Gal 3:19 speaking of Moses).
  • a better ministration in the spirit vs. the letter (2 Cor 3:6)
  • a better High Priest in Yeshua vs. Aaron (Heb 7:24-28; 8:1-6)
  • a better priesthood after the order of Melkizedek vs. Levi (Hebrews 7)
  • better promises based on the eternal rather than the temporal (Heb 7:24-25; 8:5; 9:1 vs. 9:11; see also all the promises mentioned above under the subheading, “Yahweh’s Part”.
  • a better tabernacle made without hands (Heb 8:1-6; 9:11, 24)
This covenant is truly a new thing that YHWH has created, totally unlike the Old Covenant. Everything is new and better. The only thing that is not new is Torah. However, we relate to it in a whole new way.
 
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CherubRam

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The Revoked Covenant and Converts



The mission was to convert the NATIONS to Judaism.


Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.




Genesis 17:10
This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.


Genesis 17:12
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.

Foreigners—those who are not Abraham’s offspring were also included in the covenant.

Zech 11:10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]



Genesis 17:13
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Forever is forever, unless something should change that; like a revoked covenant.



Genesis 17:14
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”


Genesis 17:23
On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him.

Abraham also had people from other nations living with him.




Genesis 17:4
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.


Genesis 17:5
No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

The covenant that Abraham would be the father of many nations will never be revoked.
 
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BobRyan

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Christ was the Son of God establishing the new covenant by perfect obedience to the law of God in fallen human flesh. Jesus was not just a devout Jew living under the old covenant, He was our example of how to live in the covenant with God.

No church or religious institution or denomination can bestow on man a religious experience based on an intimate personal relationship with Christ. This relationship is not given through the acceptance of a dogma, even if it is Biblically correct. Obedience to the commandments and the performing of rituals cannot earn it. The believer can only attain in a constant renewing, growing, and unlimited life with God, or he may slip into a worship in form only.

Paul was so concerned about the slipping into a worship in form only, that he rebuked the churches in Galatia:

Galatians 4:9-11
“9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”

It was necessary to explain to Jews and Gentiles alike the principles of man's salvation as an act of divine grace alone.

You are right to say that the Gospel (the same Gospel) operates from Adam to Revelation - and as Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel.

But the old covenant and new covenant are not the same.

The Old Covenant is "Obey and Live" there is no Gospel there. Gal 3 makes this clear

Gal 3
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”"

Paul uses the term "the Law" in Gal 3 for the old covenant "type" because sinai is a "type" of the Old Covenant..

Gal 3
"17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. "

2 Cor 3
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

All are lost under the old covenant. Sinai is a "type" of the old covenant rule of "obey and live".

Moses stands with Christ in glory in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens - because he is saved under the NEW Covenant with the law written on heart and mind --- before the cross. Just as were all the saints of Hebrews 11.

Obey and Live - is the first covenant - it is the one made with Adam and Eve in their sinless state. They could have remained sinless had they chosen to.. but they did not.

Now it is the covenant by which all mankind is condemned as sinners -- it remains to this very day.

By contrast the NEW Covenant creates the new heart and has the LAW of God written on the heart Jer 31:31-33. It is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was preached to Abraham Gal 3:8
 
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BobRyan

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The Revoked Covenant and Converts
The mission was to convert the NATIONS to Judaism.


Matthew 23:15
“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.

Genesis 17:10
This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised.

Genesis 17:12
For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring.

Foreigners—those who are not Abraham’s offspring were also included in the covenant.

Zech 11:10 Then I took my staff called Favor and broke it, revoking the covenant I had made with all the nations.
11 It was revoked on that day, and so the afflicted of the flock who were watching me knew it was the word [Yahshua] of [the Lord / Yahwah.]

Genesis 17:13
Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.

Forever is forever, unless something should change that; like a revoked covenant.

Genesis 17:14
Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Genesis 17:23
On that very day Abraham took his son Ishmael and all those born in his household or bought with his money, every male in his household, and circumcised them, as God told him.

Abraham also had people from other nations living with him.

Genesis 17:4
“As for me, this is my covenant with you: You will be the father of many nations.

Genesis 17:5
No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations.

The covenant that Abraham would be the father of many nations will never be revoked.

Hi CherubRam - welcome! Good to see you here.

Israel in the OT was God's chosen "evangelist" for the whole World. Before the cross "God so loved the WORLD" not simply after the cross. Before the cross "God was not willing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" 2 Peter 3... not merely after the cross.

Israel was not given the mission of having the entire planet live in Israel - rather they were to convert mankind to God. Worship of the one true God. but they were never commanded to tell all gentiles that they had to become circumcised Jews or they could not be saved. Acts 15:1 says this is the error that some Christian Jews had invented - but no NT or OT text calls for it. In fact in Acts 13 we see gentiles that are not circumcised worshiping with Jews in the synagogue Sabbath after Sabbath just as we see in Acts 17:1-6 and in Acts 18:4
 
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Tolworth John

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If we drive in a dusty rough road with a 30 mph sign then on a highway with a 70 mph sign, of course it is different but the Law which we are under is still the same.

The law of the road might be the same law, yet the detailed application is different.

Jus as arguing that the same lawllows one to drive at 70 in a 30 limit won't get one anywere so argueing that the sacrifical law will still save won't get one anywere with God under the new covernant.
 
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Dave-W

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The Old Covenant is "Obey and Live" there is no Gospel there. Gal 3 makes this clear
If you believe that, you are buying into a Pharasaic misunderstanding of the Mosaic covenant.
 
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CherubRam

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Dave-W

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Hebrews 8:13
By calling this covenant “new,” he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and outdated will soon disappear
“Soon disappear.” Has that happened yet?

THe Lord will return “soon,” and that has not happened yet. Perhaps they will be simultaneous?
 
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CherubRam

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“Soon disappear.” Has that happened yet?

THe Lord will return “soon,” and that has not happened yet. Perhaps they will be simultaneous?


When the temple was destroyed the festivals and sacrifices stopped. The Romans even took all of the food and animals. There was nothing to offer even if they want to. The people were also taken away as slaves to other nations.

Daniel 8:11
It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Daniel 8:12
Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Daniel 8:13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
 
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BobRyan

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Christ was the Son of God establishing the new covenant by perfect obedience to the law of God in fallen human flesh. Jesus was not just a devout Jew living under the old covenant, He was our example of how to live in the covenant with God.

No church or religious institution or denomination can bestow on man a religious experience based on an intimate personal relationship with Christ. This relationship is not given through the acceptance of a dogma, even if it is Biblically correct. Obedience to the commandments and the performing of rituals cannot earn it. The believer can only attain in a constant renewing, growing, and unlimited life with God, or he may slip into a worship in form only.

Paul was so concerned about the slipping into a worship in form only, that he rebuked the churches in Galatia:

Galatians 4:9-11
“9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.”

It was necessary to explain to Jews and Gentiles alike the principles of man's salvation as an act of divine grace alone.

You are right to say that the Gospel (the same Gospel) operates from Adam to Revelation - and as Gal 1:6-9 says there is only one Gospel.

But the old covenant and new covenant are not the same.

The Old Covenant is "Obey and Live" there is no Gospel there. Gal 3 makes this clear

Gal 3
8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “All the nations will be blessed in you.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer. 10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The righteous man shall live by faith.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices them shall live by them.” 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”"

Paul uses the term "the Law" in Gal 3 for the old covenant "type" because sinai is a "type" of the Old Covenant..

Gal 3
"17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. "

2 Cor 3
12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13 and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14 But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15 But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart;

All are lost under the old covenant. Sinai is a "type" of the old covenant rule of "obey and live".

Moses stands with Christ in glory in Matthew 17 - before the cross even happens - because he is saved under the NEW Covenant with the law written on heart and mind --- before the cross. Just as were all the saints of Hebrews 11.

Obey and Live - is the first covenant - it is the one made with Adam and Eve in their sinless state. They could have remained sinless had they chosen to.. but they did not.

Now it is the covenant by which all mankind is condemned as sinners -- it remains to this very day.

By contrast the NEW Covenant creates the new heart and has the LAW of God written on the heart Jer 31:31-33. It is the "one Gospel" of Gal 1:6-9 that was preached to Abraham Gal 3:8

If you believe that, you are buying into a Pharasaic misunderstanding of the Mosaic covenant.

I was quoting Paul - do you think he was mistaken?
 
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gadar perets

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When the temple was destroyed the festivals and sacrifices stopped. The Romans even took all of the food and animals. There was nothing to offer even if they want to. The people were also taken away as slaves to other nations.

Daniel 8:11
It set itself up to be as great as the commander of the army of the Lord; it took away the daily sacrifice from the Lord, and his sanctuary was thrown down.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Daniel 8:12
Because of rebellion, the Lord’s people and the daily sacrifice were given over to it. It prospered in everything it did, and truth was thrown to the ground.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Daniel 8:13
Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to him, “How long will it take for the vision to be fulfilled—the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, the rebellion that causes desolation, the surrender of the sanctuary and the trampling underfoot of the Lord’s people?”
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
These verses address the sacrifices, but say nothing about the festivals. You add that into the text.
 
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