The violence in the OT

Dkh587 · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
No. Your analogy is horrible. First you make the king who killed somebody who is a traitor which isn't aligned to the OT events in where families of the guilty where ordered to be slaughtered. Second, your analogy forces you to support various tyrants in the past.

Your analogy is so bad that it has actual examples in real life. Look at Adolf Hitler, he was a ruler of Germany.. he made all these laws in Germany that jews must be killed. So i guess, by your logic that means he is not guilty of murder. These are his laws.

Same thing with Nero he made it a crime to believe in Jesus, and this crime would result being fed to lions no matter how old you are. So by your logic he is not guilty of murder.
I can go on and name drop more rulers, whether historical to mythical and the point there is that regardless of them being rulers and that doesn't mean what they did wasn't wrong.

Yes, but they are saying the same form of reason that you are doing. The whole act of evil is justifiable because of the law of their god. Just like you, to them beheading the infidels or flying planes to buildings filled with people isn't wrong because their god commands it. This god of theirs is the ruler, their law maker, and all those things you are arguing in defense of god.

And lets just be theoretical and say that they are actually the religion worshiping the right god... does that mean the terrorist who beheaded an 8 year old and all these mass killings we've seen in current events are now good things? Your logic forces you to say yes.

Yes. As a catholic, we (should) adhere to reason and rationality on certain subjects. These events of the OT are no way good at face value so there has to be much intelligent form of reasoning to explain this. The reasoning i'm seeing here though is appalling because you guys support genocide and the killing of babies and animals all because someone of high authority says so.

Your arguments and reasoning sound like those of an atheist.

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
I understand that topics like this have been done a million times. The occasional atrocities in the OT that Atheists normally use as a reference to the evils in religion.

"slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Is an example of one verse. I've read and heard arguments being that they where sinners and they were doing bad things to the Hebrews for 400 years.. but does this justify the killing of babies and animals?

I'm not going to debate because I and most of you certainly have encountered these arguments many times. I'm just interested to see how believers here can explain it intelligently and in ways that (if possible) is understandable for secular people.

For your reference:
Canaanites Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21
Amalekites 1 Samuel 15
The harsh death penalties in Leviticus.

Couple of reasons. The main one being what they devolved and degraded into in those 400 years. God as the head of a government has to be able to show in the strongest terms possible what he will not tolerate his creation.
Secondly: It is the only way possible to shut the door to the demons and demonic activity the Canninites opened. Even keeping the children alive would keep the door open. As you can see in Ancient Israel’s future. They failed at this.
Third: The weakness of the law to contend with such madness. The Gospel is a lot more powerful. But not coming for a long time.
There are more reasons than this. But basically it was necessary, not optional for God who so loves the world.
A picture is worth a thousand words as far as the depravity and madness. Here is that picture.

Cis.jd · Dec 29, 2018

Daniel Martinovich said:
Couple of reasons. The main one being what they devolved and degraded into in those 400 years. The God as the head of a government has to be able to show in the strongest terms possible what he will not tolerate his creation.
Secondly: It is the only way possible to shut the door to the demons and demonic activity the Canninites opened. Even keeping the children alive would keep the door open. As you can see in Ancient Israel’s future. They failed at this.
Third: The weakness of the law to contend with such madness. The Gospel is a lot more powerful. But not coming for a long time.
There are more reasons than this.
A picture is worth a thousand words as far as the depravity and madness. Here is that picture.

I consider your post a good argument. I can understand the acts to be a form of retribution if there is actual historical proof that the activities of the Canaanites and Amalakites where just as that Apocalypto movie. Sure. However i don't understand how infant babies and animals should be slaughtered as well. This is where the main problem is. It isn't seeking revenge or security against the canannites but the butchering of the innocents. We know infants and animals have 0 faults in whatever their tribe did.

One of the best logical forms of reasoning was from @Doctor.Sphinx in where we have a theory that these infants where not fully human, sadly we just need a better form of sources (whether biblical or historic) to support this.

Dkh587 · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
I consider your post a good argument. I can understand the acts to be a form of retribution if there is actual historical proof that the activities of the Canaanites and Amalakites where just as that Apocalypto movie. Sure. However i don't understand how infant babies and animals should be slaughtered as well. This is where the main problem is. It isn't seeking revenge or security against the canannites but the butchering of the innocents. We know infants and animals have 0 faults in whatever their tribe did.

One of the best logical forms of reasoning was from @Doctor.Sphinx in where we have a theory that these infants where not fully human, sadly we just need a better form of sources (whether biblical or historic) to support this.

What happens when you get the answer you want?

ETA: what is the answer you want?

Maria Billingsley · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
I understand that topics like this have been done a million times. The occasional atrocities in the OT that Atheists normally use as a reference to the evils in religion.

"slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Is an example of one verse. I've read and heard arguments being that they where sinners and they were doing bad things to the Hebrews for 400 years.. but does this justify the killing of babies and animals?

I'm not going to debate because I and most of you certainly have encountered these arguments many times. I'm just interested to see how believers here can explain it intelligently and in ways that (if possible) is understandable for secular people.

For your reference:
Canaanites Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21
Amalekites 1 Samuel 15
The harsh death penalties in Leviticus.

Is God a killer? That is the simple question here however, the answer is not so simple and fairly impossible to explain to a hardened heart.
If you come across people that want to know the answer to this question because that is the only reason stopping them from believing in a Creator then you have to ask them, who actually did the killing? The answer to that is HUMANS.
Since , I assume, they do not believe God exists then why blame Him for the death of innocent women and children? You may want to tell them that the first murder was performed by a human and not God. Why point out that God is the killer when in fact humans are the killers. The argument falls short when you put it in their perspective. There is no God thus He can not kill. In conclusion, they will need to believe in Him first in order to understand His sovereignty.
Blessings

Cis.jd · Dec 29, 2018

Dkh587 said:
What happens when you get the answer you want?

It means we have a good answer. That we have every right to share or defend the goodness of God. How can christianity be a considered a religion of peace when we ourselves have condoled genocide of innocent babies and animals? That fact is, i don't think the bible nor God ordered it, there has to be a rational explanation.

devin553344 · Dec 29, 2018

Dkh587 said:
Christ did not teach disobedience to God’s law. He was teaching against the improper use of “eye for an eye”. It was being taught incorrectly as a general rule for retaliation, rather than specific circumstances.

John 8:7 Christ could not condemn the woman to death, as the accusers were breaking the law, because they did not bring the man with her (as commanded in the law). Christ would have been breaking the law himself if he told them to stone her, as they were breaking the law by not bringing the man with her.

Christ will destroy/kill billions of people for their wickedness and breaking of God’s law when he returns to set up the kingdom. It doesn’t make sense if he started a new religion, only to judge and kill people for breaking the “Old religion”.

So then only the righteous have the right to kill in your interpretation? I simply don't believe that. Jesus was without sin and could have then stoned her to death on behalf of the people. But somehow that just sounds ridiculous to think of Jesus stoning someone to death. After all he went about healing and forgiving sins and raising from the dead. It seems out of character.

Can you quote scripture please on where it says Jesus the Christ will kill billions of people. Because I think you might be confusing Jesus with someone else.

devin553344 · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
I think you are the first one whose arguments lead to the more rational and intelligent way of answering this.
One of my theories (that i can't substantiate due to my lack of evidence) in defending this is, maybe not everything in the OT historically happened as written. That a lot of it is covered in a form of lore all to give a message rather than history lesson. The only problem here though is the transfiguration in the NT. Everything about Jesus must be historically believed by christians.

Yeah I see your point. After all a lot of what is in Genesis is way before Moses (the writer) was alive. So then Moses must have been receiving revelation from God to have written anything in Genesis. It wasn't simply recording of history facts to Moses, it must have been divinely received? And God does speak parables and visions a lot.

So you mean Jonah in the belly of the whale wasn't literally what happened? That story does sound a little bizarre but then I've seen videos of sea lions smacking kyakers with octopus. Why Did An Octopus-Wielding Seal Slap A Kayaker In The Face?

Varangian Christian · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
No. Your analogy is horrible. First you make the king who killed somebody who is a traitor which isn't aligned to the OT events in where families of the guilty where ordered to be slaughtered. Second, your analogy forces you to support various tyrants in the past.

The analogy was to show that if even an earthly king is not subject to the laws placed on his people then surely God is not subject to His commandments for His people. If you do not understand that then our discussion will be fruitless.

How am I forced to support tyrants? They are beholden to the law of God which I follow. In this thread you are seeking to judge God, who is beholden to nothing and no one.

Cis.jd said:
Your analogy is so bad that it has actual examples in real life. Look at Adolf Hitler, he was a ruler of Germany.. he made all these laws in Germany that jews must be killed. So i guess, by your logic that means he is not guilty of murder. These are his laws.

Same thing with Nero he made it a crime to believe in Jesus, and this crime would result being fed to lions no matter how old you are. So by your logic he is not guilty of murder.
I can go on and name drop more rulers, whether historical to mythical and the point there is that regardless of them being rulers and that doesn't mean what they did wasn't wrong.

So much for not debating like an atheist, now God is literally Hitler, eh? :doh:

And yes, none of those people were guilty of murder under their own laws. God would condemn them, but that is beside the point as we are debating whether you can condemn God who is not subservient to any law.

Cis.jd said:
Yes, but they are saying the same form of reason that you are doing. The whole act of evil is justifiable because of the law of their god. Just like you, to them beheading the infidels or flying planes to buildings filled with people isn't wrong because their god commands it. This god of theirs is the ruler, their law maker, and all those things you are arguing in defense of god.

Are you saying that God is not your ruler and lawmaker? Are you asserting that God is not the giver of morality and its absolute standard? Are you condemning the kings and prophets of the Old Testament and which are to come as murderers? Who are you to judge God!

Your pride repulses me.

Cis.jd said:
And lets just be theoretical and say that they are actually the religion worshiping the right god... does that mean the terrorist who beheaded an 8 year old and all these mass killings we've seen in current events are now good things? Your logic forces you to say yes.

Yes it would, if all those things were ordered by God, and I have no problem admitting that. Deus Vult!

Are you condemning king David, Moses, Elijah and all the other great warriors of our God? Are you calling them evil?

Cis.jd said:
Yes. As a catholic, we (should) adhere to reason and rationality on certain subjects. These events of the OT are no way good at face value so there has to be much intelligent form of reasoning to explain this. The reasoning i'm seeing here though is appalling because you guys support genocide and the killing of babies and animals all because someone of high authority says so.

What I see here is someone who professes Christianity but is atheist in mind. Repent and beware lest in the foolishness of your mind you be drawn away from God. :crosseo:

You are also debating in a completely dishonest manner. Go back to my earlier post and engage with all that I said rather than ignoring it. Your heathen rationalism is anathema to a mind of faith.

JacksBratt · Dec 29, 2018

The answer to this question was hinted at in Post #48.

Devin P said:
Back in genesis 6, it talks of Nephilim, and their forced mating of themselves with women. These Nephilim were the result of fallen angels

There were giants in the land in those days.... and.. after that.

Whether you accept that the fallen angels mated with human women.. or the Sethite view.. the fact is right there for those that want to accept it.... There was something that happened, before the flood that corrupted all flesh.... to the point that God did not just kill women, children, ox and ass of one group of people.. as He commanded the Israelites to do later... No..He killed EVERY man, woman and child.. and every ox and ass...

He wanted to wipe humans out completely.. but.. Noah was of "pure generations".

Noah still had to find wives for his sons.. they were as pure in their generations as I believe could be found... but, none the less.. we have the Canaanites, Hittites... and a bunch of other "ites" that are enemies of the Hebrews.

I know.. I know.. you were not taught any of this in Sunday School. But, does it not make sense?

Somehow.. fallen angels or Sethites.. you pick... corrupted the human bloodline.
The human bloodline that was necessary for our Savior to come and die for us.

Do you not see it? Satan knows that we are all sinners. He also knew that Christ would come to save us. Do you not think that this would have been a sweet plan? Make all humans corrupted... so Christ could never come, as a God/man?

Why do we watch these movies with Captain America, Hulk, Thor, and Wolverine... and accept the little "rules" that make the story a story.. Hulk needs to get mad to be Hulk.. or Thor can and does lose his hammer and has to do some supernatural thing to get it back...

Yet, we fail to believe the very thing that happened before our time.... to cause God to destroy all flesh that had nostrils to breath.

Then, again, we condemn Him for having His people kill men, women and children again.. while we still know that there are giants and those that "look upon us like we are grasshoppers".

He has given us a book. It is the Holy Bible. He has told us, in this book, all that we need to know to understand..

So.. read it and accept it.

He had all those people killed to maintain the generations of the Hebrews so that you and I could have a savior.

Basil the Great · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
I love your answer, and this is also my view. However, just to play devils advocate.. doesn't this raise the question to secularists on the good commandments as well?

Yes, I suppose you make a valid point.

Cis.jd · Dec 29, 2018

Varangian Christian said:
The analogy was to show that if even an earthly king is not subject to the laws placed on his people then surely God is not subject to His commandments for His people. If you do not understand that then our discussion will be fruitless.

How am I forced to support tyrants? They are beholden to the law of God which I follow. In this thread you are seeking to judge God, who is beholden to nothing and no one.

The point I am saying is that regardless of the king being immune to the laws doesn't exclude the fact that it is wrong.

The reason why it forces you to support tyrants is because of your argument based on authority. Just because someone is of higher authority and is immune to the laws means that whatever is done is just correct.

So much for not debating like an atheist, now God is literally Hitler, eh?

No. This quote shows you were unable to understand what I was saying. Learn to read and understand before using emoji's like that.

Are you saying that God is not your ruler and lawmaker? Are you asserting that God is not the giver of morality and its absolute standard? Are you condemning the kings and prophets of the Old Testament and which are to come as murderers? Who are you to judge God!

Your pride repulses me.

I am saying he is the giver of morality therefore there has to be a reasonable explanation as to why he ordered infants and animals to be murdered for whatever members of the tribe has done. Your argument of "well, he's god so anything he does it ok" is not reasonable and there is no intelligent way that can be seen as attributes of a good and loving God.

What I see here is someone who professes Christianity but is atheist in mind. Repent and beware lest in the foolishness of your mind you be drawn away from God.

You are also debating in a completely dishonest manner. Go back to my earlier post and engage with all that I said rather than ignoring it. Your heathen rationalism is anathema to a mind of faith.

Sir, if your religion supports murdering of infants, murdering of animals, and murdering of innocents then it's a bad religion. You are way too sheep like and thoughts like yours are completely dangerous because it justifies violence due to authoritative and dictator like power. This isn't about atheism this about being reasonable. Your entire reason can be used by terrorists and other murders.. so as i've asked.

Lets just say, the god of the Isis is the true god, does this mean that the beheading and murders they've done to innocent people is now justified and does this god retain the reputation of being all good? This is what you need to answer.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
I understand that topics like this have been done a million times. The occasional atrocities in the OT that Atheists normally use as a reference to the evils in religion.

"slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Is an example of one verse. I've read and heard arguments being that they where sinners and they were doing bad things to the Hebrews for 400 years.. but does this justify the killing of babies and animals?

I'm not going to debate because I and most of you certainly have encountered these arguments many times. I'm just interested to see how believers here can explain it intelligently and in ways that (if possible) is understandable for secular people.

For your reference:
Canaanites Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21
Amalekites 1 Samuel 15
The harsh death penalties in Leviticus.

Well, everybody dies at some point in their life. The question is a matter of when. If a person's life is sinful and evil, it is not wrong for GOD to take their life and to judge them. For He is GOD and they will have to answer to Him. Everyone will be resurrected bodily and give an answer to GOD. Those who are evil, will be a part of the resurrection of damnation. They will then be judged and destroyed (annihiated or erased from existence) after they had been punished fairly for their crimes in the Lake of Fire. Justice will be served. But the end of our lives is not physical death. Only the wicked will come to an end (in time).

But I know what you are saying. One of the challenges I briefly had was GOD commanding the slaughter of children along with the adults (of God's enemies). However, after praying about it and doing a lot of research on the topic, I have come to a better understanding on it.

Well, first, it needs to be said that the church is forbidden in taking life. They are commanded by God to love their enemies and to pray for them. We are to bless those that curse us. Jesus said to turn the other cheek if somebody smites you. We are not to repay evil for evil but we are to conquer evil with good. For believers today are under a New Covenant with God in Jesus Christ. Israel was a political power or nation where God was to be their King. This nation was literally supposed to be the arm of God.

The church is not a political power or nation like the Israelite Nation during the Old Testament times. Second, yes, it is true. God did command the Israelites to wipe out children. But you have to understand the context and situation, though. God did not just tell them to kill only children. No doubt many of these children were damaged by the horrible sinful ways of their parents. These children no doubt would have corrupted the Israelites with the sin that they had learned from their parents. These children also probably carried many diseases like the animals because many of them were sexually abused in horrible pagan rituals to false gods, too. So the health of the Israelites was at risk. Also, some of these tribes attacked the Israelites in a cowardly fashion from behind (Where the woman and children stayed). No doubt, the Israelites children were probably killed at times during these battles. Can you imagine if your child was killed by evil people? What if your best friend's child was killed, too? How would you feel?

For example: What if a bunch of children today had let loose a deadly virus inside a mountain and if one of them had gotten out, they would in effect put the whole world at risk in being killed. Would the nearby containment team be wrong for shutting them inside the mountain? Would the President of the United States be wrong for ordering a missile strike against that mountain if he knew that one of those children was about to get out (Thereby killing most everyone on the planet)?This is similar to what God was doing with the Israelites. Except the deadly disease was sin and infection that would lead the hearts of the Israelites away from God and put at risk the line of the Messiah which was to save all mankind by dying on the cross for man's sins.As for God taking life: Again, you have to understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life. They are in no way the same thing. God created all life. Man did not create all life. God owns all of creation. Man does not own all of creation. God decides who ultimately lives and who dies in this life. Man does not ultimately decide who lives and dies within this life. For even believers die. However, they go to be with God, though. Whereas the unbeliever is placed in a prison and is eventually destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Also, babies and children who are not aware of right and wrong yet go to be with God. So their existence does not end at death. The body is just a shell, temple, or vessel.

We have to remember that this life is a test of our faith in GOD.
This life is but a stage.

SaintCody777 · Dec 29, 2018

I'm not surprised that atheists and humanists would raise this kind of charge:
https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/reasons-humanists-reject-bible/
What they don't understand is those all happened in the age of the ceremonial law, which is done away with.
They think that the God of the NT is a lot more crueler. They don't understand that a sin is an offense against an eternal God. And punishment is not really punishment unless its is experienced and felt.
Sure, I may not be as bad as people like Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones, Ariel Castro, or Stephen Paddock. But Humanists feel that because of all the OT atrocities as well as the promise to punish unbelievers and those who don't obey Him, The God of the Bible aka Yahweh fits in this same category of bad apples.
What people with this kind of humanistic ideology don't understand is that the justice of punishment fits not only the gravity of the crime, but also who they did it too. For instance, one same bad deed, lying to my 5 year old cousin obviously does not have the same level of consequences as lying to a judge and jury, under oath.
Isaiah 55:8-9 describes the humanist ideology perfectly.

Cis.jd · Dec 29, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Well, everybody dies at some point in their life. The question is a matter of when. If a person's life is sinful and evil, it is not wrong for GOD to take their life and to judge them. For He is GOD and they will have to answer to Him. Everyone will be resurrected bodily and give an answer to GOD. Those who are evil, will be a part of the resurrection of damnation. They will then be judged and destroyed (annihiated or erased from existence) after they had been punished fairly for their crimes in the Lake of Fire. Justice will be served. But the end of our lives is not physical death. Only the wicked will come to an end (in time).

But I know what you are saying. One of the challenges I briefly had was GOD commanding the slaughter of children along with the adults (of God's enemies). However, after praying about it and doing a lot of research on the topic, I have come to a better understanding on it.

Well, first, it needs to be said that the church is forbidden in taking life. They are commanded by God to love their enemies and to pray for them. We are to bless those that curse us. Jesus said to turn the other cheek if somebody smites you. We are not to repay evil for evil but we are to conquer evil with good. For believers today are under a New Covenant with God in Jesus Christ. Israel was a political power or nation where God was to be their King. This nation was literally supposed to be the arm of God.

The church is not a political power or nation like the Israelite Nation during the Old Testament times. Second, yes, it is true. God did command the Israelites to wipe out children. But you have to understand the context and situation, though. God did not just tell them to kill only children. No doubt many of these children were damaged by the horrible sinful ways of their parents. These children no doubt would have corrupted the Israelites with the sin that they had learned from their parents. These children also probably carried many diseases like the animals because many of them were sexually abused in horrible pagan rituals to false gods, too. So the health of the Israelites was at risk. Also, some of these tribes attacked the Israelites in a cowardly fashion from behind (Where the woman and children stayed). No doubt, the Israelites children were probably killed at times during these battles. Can you imagine if your child was killed by evil people? What if your best friend's child was killed, too? How would you feel?

For example: What if a bunch of children today had let loose a deadly virus inside a mountain and if one of them had gotten out, they would in effect put the whole world at risk in being killed. Would the nearby containment team be wrong for shutting them inside the mountain? Would the President of the United States be wrong for ordering a missile strike against that mountain if he knew that one of those children was about to get out (Thereby killing most everyone on the planet)?This is similar to what God was doing with the Israelites. Except the deadly disease was sin and infection that would lead the hearts of the Israelites away from God and put at risk the line of the Messiah which was to save all mankind by dying on the cross for man's sins.As for God taking life: Again, you have to understand that God taking life is not the same as a man taking life. They are in no way the same thing. God created all life. Man did not create all life. God owns all of creation. Man does not own all of creation. God decides who ultimately lives and who dies in this life. Man does not ultimately decide who lives and dies within this life. For even believers die. However, they go to be with God, though. Whereas the unbeliever is placed in a prison and is eventually destroyed in the Lake of Fire.

Also, babies and children who are not aware of right and wrong yet go to be with God. So their existence does not end at death. The body is just a shell, temple, or vessel.

We have to remember that this life is a test of our faith in GOD.
This life is but a stage.

While your argument is good the problem is there is no source that fully supports the theory that the infants and animals carried diseases or anything that would contaminate the Hebrews.

Cis.jd · Dec 29, 2018

SaintCody777 said:
I'm not surprised that atheists and humanists would raise this kind of charge:
https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/reasons-humanists-reject-bible/
What they don't understand is those all happened in the age of the ceremonial law, which is done away with.
They think that the God of the NT is a lot more crueler. They don't understand that a sin is an offense against an eternal God. And punishment is not really punishment unless its is experienced and felt.
Sure, I may not be as bad as people like Adolf Hitler, Jim Jones, Ariel Castro, or Stephen Paddock. But Humanists feel that because of all the OT atrocities as well as the promise to punish unbelievers and those who don't obey Him, The God of the Bible aka Yahweh what people with this kind of humanistic ideology don't understand is that the justice of punishment fits not only the gravity of the crime, but also who they did it too. For instance, one same bad deed, lying to my 5 year old cousin obviously does not have the same level of consequences as lying to a judge and jury, under oath.
Isaiah 55:8-9 describes the humanist ideology perfectly.

I don't think you have to be a humanist or just any form of non-christian to determine that violently slaughtering infants, animals, and other innocent lives is barbarianism. You would only understand if the god in the story was a different god like Allah, Vishnu, or whoever.

Daniel Martinovich · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
I consider your post a good argument. I can understand the acts to be a form of retribution if there is actual historical proof that the activities of the Canaanites and Amalakites where just as that Apocalypto movie. Sure. However i don't understand how infant babies and animals should be slaughtered as well. This is where the main problem is. It isn't seeking revenge or security against the canannites but the butchering of the innocents. We know infants and animals have 0 faults in whatever their tribe did.

One of the best logical forms of reasoning was from @Doctor.Sphinx in where we have a theory that these infants where not fully human, sadly we just need a better form of sources (whether biblical or historic) to support this.

I am having great difficult on this discussion board along these types of lines trying to get people to realize the outrageously awesome things God has wrought in the earth as far as making it better and more moral. They are so myopic it's like they believe history started the day they were born. They live in a world that has been transformed by the influnce of the Gospel and the Word of God and Christians. Yet they some how in an almost insane ignorance and arrogance believe this world less moral than the ancient world was. That is the power of their acceptance of false prophecy in the guise of end time prophecy teachings.

I am not talking about you here but the discussions Ive read and participated in along these lines in the last few weeks. There is no comparing our world, its morality to the ancient one. Especially if you are talking about the parts of the world completely untouched by the influnce of the Kingdom of God. Like the America's. Once small family or tribal government started butting heads with other family or tribal governmnet and got themselves kings. Then devolution into what you saw in that movie clip was the norm. There were no innocents as we would like to think of babies today. Death was worshiped, life revolved around death. The good guys never won. The wealthy surrounded themselves with pet children they used for sex. The most depraved sexual practices or mass murder you could imagine, or that occurs in our world influenced by the Gospel was the norm or the ancient world.

We get our idea's of that world by today movies. Without any realization that everyday life back then was rated XXX and we cannot sell entertainment that portrayed life as it was back then. Christians complain about the resurgence of homosexuality and other aberrant sexual practices. For gosh sake the Spartans were 100% homo or bi sexual. The vast majority of /Roman emperors were homosexual. One could accurately say the homosexuals ruled the ancient world. They scream bloody murder about abortion, as they should. But mass abortion has always been part and parcel of the world. It is not new. What new is the Christians worlds surrender to it.

God so loved that insane and mad demon possessed world that he sent his only begotten Son into to it that he might save it. But the messiah could not come into that world of total darkness. Light if not accepted causes the annihilation of people walking in darkness. So he had to prepare a small people, a toe hold, a Normandy beach head for his long planned invasion of planet earth by his moral governmnet. That was why he choose Israel. And look at them. Recipients of the greatest miracles ever seen by man yet it took God over a thousand years to get them to reject idolatry and a few other select sins. Notice the OT rebuke was always over idolatry but in the NT Jesus never said a world to then about it. Because they rejected it. Which was necessary because the messiah could not come to an idolatrous people. He needed a people who accepted enough light that he could bring them more. Yet it still destroyed the nation and saved a minority within it.

My point is. You cannot judge Gods actions in that world by today standards. Those standards did not exist back then and God had to navigate his way to his goal through that darkness and insanity. That is also why the Word does not speak to us to do that. Discerning Bible readers understand that most of the law is laid out in principle not statute. And principle is applied differently in different circumstances.

There is a lot more to it than this. But I can tell you that the reason you have such questions is by design. It's why progressives removed the Bible from our schools. So people would be unfamiliar enough with them that people could say all kinds of trash about the Bible and no one would know any different.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 29, 2018

Cis.jd said:
While your argument is good the problem is there is no source that fully supports the theory that the infants and animals carried diseases or anything that would contaminate the Hebrews.

Actually, the Bible says so. Leviticus 18:1-5 tells Israel to not partake of the pagan ways of Egypt. Then Leviticus 18:6-23 talks about sexual immorality like incest and inappropriate behavior with animals. Then Leviticus 18:24-25 and Leviticus 18:27 says that the pagan nations have defiled themselves and have done of these abominations.

Logic dictates that if the pagan nations around them had partaken in incest and inappropriate behavior with animals, they would naturally have sexual diseases. In fact, the word “defiled” in Leviticus 18 implies that.

derpytia · Dec 29, 2018

Food for thought: if nothing God does is eligible for questioning then why did God create humankind with the ability to reason, to seek answers, and to ask "why"?

And, even a murderer knows what he is being given capital punishment for. An infant does not.

Cis.jd · Dec 29, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Actually, the Bible says so. Leviticus 18:1-5 tells Israel to not partake of the pagan ways of Egypt. Then Leviticus 18:6-23 talks about sexual immorality like incest and inappropriate behavior with animals. Then Leviticus 18:24-25 and Leviticus 18:27 says that the pagan nations have defiled themselves and have done of these abominations.

Logic dictates that if the pagan nations around them had partaken in incest and inappropriate behavior with animals, they would naturally have sexual diseases. In fact, the word “defiled” in Leviticus 18 implies that.

great argument. This is a very interesting explanation that I would love to look into more.

My stance is highly misunderstood here. I am clearly a believer but I believe rationality should be strong in christianity and I believe there is a good rational that explains these verses, just like the one you provided.

The arguments being presented here about how "well..if god is butchering babies, then it's now good because he is god" is a very horrible argument and it's almost disturbing.

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