Approaches to Eschatology

Erik Nelson · Dec 29, 2018

Biblewriter said:
There is actually very string reason for believing that our Lord was using these same two words to mean two different generations.

And that reason is that if He was not referring to two different generations, many of the other ststements inspired by the same Holy Spirit would be inconsistent.

I see now how difficult it is to be systematic. In interpreting Matthew.

"This generation" Ought to mean the same "this generation" Every time it's used. Yet applying the same systematic logic. The "coming of the son of man" Ought to me the same thing every time it is used.

And in the Olivette Discourse. of Matthew 24. To 25, "this generation" is used. Which would imply the "first century?" Yet coming of the son of Man in glory. Is also repeatedly used? Both in reference to the destruction of the temple in 70ad. But also to final eternal judgment. Matthew 25:46.

Being blunt. The only systematic way. Of harmonizing all of the language used. In a completely straightforward manner. Would require that final eternal judgment occurred in 70 AD.

You are taking one way out of the impasse. By "bending" the interpretation of this generation in Matthew 24.

I understand full hyper preterists take another way out by Spiritualizing. The fiery final judgment. Language of Matthew 25 and 2 Peter. 3. And reading it into. 70. AD.

As of this moment I'm very confused. It's almost as if final eternal judgment should have occurred in 70. AD.

The only thing I can add is that in 70. AD there really was some. Sort of sorting of sheep from goats. Jesus ordered the Christians to flee. Jerusalem to Pella. On the other side of the Jordan River. Whereas non Christians remained in Jerusalem. So, in some sense there really was a sorting of sheep from goats. In a physical. Literal way. per Matthew 25:31-46

BABerean2 · Dec 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
As of this moment I'm very confused. It's almost as if final eternal judgment should have occurred in 70. AD.

Was the whole earth covered by water in the flood, or did it only cover the city of Jerusalem?

Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Were the men of Nineveh, and the queen of the south resurrected from the dead during 70 AD?

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
I see now how difficult it is to be systematic. In interpreting Matthew.

"This generation" Ought to mean the same "this generation" Every time it's used. Yet applying the same systematic logic. The "coming of the son of man" Ought to me the same thing every time it is used.

And in the Olivette Discourse. of Matthew 24. To 25, "this generation" is used. Which would imply the "first century?" Yet coming of the son of Man in glory. Is also repeatedly used? Both in reference to the destruction of the temple in 70ad. But also to final eternal judgment. Matthew 25:46.

Being blunt. The only systematic way. Of harmonizing all of the language used. In a completely straightforward manner. Would require that final eternal judgment occurred in 70 AD.

You are taking one way out of the impasse. By "bending" the interpretation of this generation in Matthew 24.

I understand full hyper preterists take another way out by Spiritualizing. The fiery final judgment. Language of Matthew 25 and 2 Peter. 3. And reading it into. 70. AD.

As of this moment I'm very confused. It's almost as if final eternal judgment should have occurred in 70. AD.

The only thing I can add is that in 70. AD there really was some. Sort of sorting of sheep from goats. Jesus ordered the Christians to flee. Jerusalem to Pella. On the other side of the Jordan River. Whereas non Christians remained in Jerusalem. So, in some sense there really was a sorting of sheep from goats. In a physical. Literal way. per Matthew 25:31-46

Erik, you should go to Ezekiel, 39, the 7 years, and Jesus's second coming is in that chapter. Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29.

It is after Gog/Magog that the 70th week will begin. This a 100% reliable certainty. I show on my chart how Matthew 24:15 abomination of desolation comes about, down near the bottom, if you would just follow through it.

Erik Nelson · Dec 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Was the whole earth covered by water in the flood, or did it only cover the city of Jerusalem?

Pe 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation.
2Pe 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Pe 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
2Pe 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Were the men of Nineveh, and the queen of the south resurrected from the dead during 70 AD?

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

.

Hum those are all excellent scriptural references and right to the point. Those all sound like they apply to A. "Far from the first century future event".

So I feel like I'm with you so far. Yet as Little Lamb Bones Jesus observed. Those references all. Resemble the Olivet discourse. In Matthew 24 to 25. The Olivet discourse is United top to bottom by specific language life "coming of the son of Man in glory."

But the top of the Olivet discourse appears to clearly apply to 70ad whereas the bottom appears to clearly apply to eternal final judgment.

Eternal final judgment.
2 Peter 3.
Matthew 12:41-42
Matthew 25.
|
Matthew 24.
70AD

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
.

Were the men of Nineveh, and the queen of the south resurrected from the dead during 70 AD?

Mat_12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Mat_12:42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

.

Don't forget Luke's parallel accounts of the 70ad discourse

Co 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.

Matthew 12:
41
`Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up/anasthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation, this, and shall be condemning IT
that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.
42
`A Queen of the south shall be being roused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:
29
And the multitudes crowding together upon him, he began to say, ‘This generation is evil, a sign it doth seek after, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet,
30
for as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also shall the Son of Man be to this generation.
31
‘A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and lo, greater than Solomon here!
32
‘Men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, because they reformed at the proclamation of Jonah; and lo, greater than Jonah here!

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
DAYS OF NOAH

Matthew 24:
37
As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
38
For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark
39
They didn’t know until the flood came and took-away<142> them all.
This is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be.

622. apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish

Luke 17:
26
“Just as it was in the days of Noah,† so it will be in the days of the Son of Man:
27
People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage† until the day Noah boarded the ark,† and the flood came and destroyed<622> them all.

#622 used 1 time in Revelation concerning the destruction of the great City....

Revelation 18:14
And the fruition of Thee of the yearning of the soul passed away from Thee.
And all of the sumptuous-things<3045> and radiant-things<2986> of Thee were destroyed<622>
and no-still<3675> not no them they shall be finding.

.

Erik Nelson · Dec 29, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Don't forget Luke's parallel accounts of the 70ad discourse
Co 2:14
But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them,
because they are spiritually discerned.

Matthew 12:
41
`Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up/anasthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation, this, and shall be condemning IT
that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.
42
`A Queen of the south shall be being roused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it.
That she came out of the ends of the land to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, more of Solomon here!

Luke 11:
29
And the multitudes crowding together upon him, he began to say, ‘This generation is evil, a sign it doth seek after, and a sign shall not be given to it, except the sign of Jonah the prophet,
30
for as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also shall the Son of Man be to this generation.
31
‘A queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and shall condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and lo, greater than Solomon here!
32
‘Men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it, because they reformed at the proclamation of Jonah; and lo, greater than Jonah here!

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
DAYS OF NOAH

Matthew 24:
37
As the days of Noah were, so the coming of the Son of Man will be.
38
For in those days before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day Noah boarded the ark
39
They didn’t know until the flood came and took-away<142> them all.
This is the way the coming of the Son of Man will be.

622. apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish

Luke 17:
26
“Just as it was in the days of Noah,† so it will be in the days of the Son of Man:
27
People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage† until the day Noah boarded the ark,† and the flood came and destroyed<622> them all.

#622 used 1 time in Revelation concerning the destruction of the great City....

Revelation 18:14
And the fruition of Thee of the yearning of the soul passed away from Thee.
And all of the sumptuous-things<3045> and radiant-things<2986> of Thee were destroyed<622>
and no-still<3675> not no them they shall be finding.

.

I can't justify this position systematically. But I still feel that the beginning of the Olivet discourse clearly refers to a LOCAL event. 70 AD. Whereas. The end of the Olivet discourse. Clearly refers to a GLOBAL cataclysmic event come parable with the biblically global. Noah's flood.

Obviously Jesus uses the exact same language "coming of the son of Man in glory."

Yet most to all of us here seem to sense that we're still talking about 2 different events.

So perhaps there is a way of viewing. seventy AD as a foreshadowing pre figuring "mini second coming" or something like that?

Biblewriter · Dec 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Being blunt. The only systematic way. Of harmonizing all of the language used. In a completely straightforward manner. Would require that final eternal judgment occurred in 70 AD.

You are taking one way out of the impasse. By "bending" the interpretation of this generation in Matthew 24.

No, I am not "bending" the interpretation of "this generation" in Matthew 24. I am pointing out a fully legitimate literal interpretation of the entire sentence, as it is used in that passage.

But your interpretation causes far more problems than it solves.

It leaves no room, for instance, for any fulfillment of the attack by "the Assyrian" whose daily progress is so precisely detailed in Isaiah 10:28-32. We know for a fact that no ancient Assyrian king attacked Jerusalem by following a route even approximately like this one.

It leaves no room for a time when Israel has the borders so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47:15-20, or for the division of the land as Described in the following chapter, Ezekiel 48.

It leaves no room for "all, all of the house of Israel" to again inhabit the land, as is so precisely stated in Ezekiel 36:1-10.

And these are but a few examples of many explicitly stated prophecies, made in plain, clear, language, that have unquestionably never been fulfilled, even now, almost 2000 years after 70 A.D.

Biblewriter · Dec 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
I can't justify this position systematically. But I still feel that the beginning of the Olivet discourse clearly refers to a LOCAL event. 70 AD. Whereas. The end of the Olivet discourse. Clearly refers to a GLOBAL cataclysmic event come parable with the biblically global. Noah's flood.

Obviously Jesus uses the exact same language "coming of the son of Man in glory."

Yet most to all of us here seem to sense that we're still talking about 2 different events.

So perhaps there is a way of viewing. seventy AD as a foreshadowing pre figuring "mini second coming" or something like that?

There are three passages in the gospels that, at first glance, appear to be speaking of the same subject. But when we read closely, we see that they are different.

In Matthew 24, we read: “Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said to them, ‘Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down.’ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, ‘Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?’ ” (Matthew 24:1-3).

This passage records three specific questions that the disciples asked. They evidently thought these subjects were related, but they were not. Their first question was, "When shall these things be?" That was in reference to the words Jesus had just spoken about the destruction of the temple, which as we know, took place in about 70 A.D. But this passage also records two more questions they had asked. They also asked what would be the sign of His coming, and what would be the sign of the end of the age. So the recorded answer by Jesus covered all three of these questions.

Then, in Mark 13 we read, “Then as He went out of the temple, one of His disciples said to Him, ‘Teacher, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here!’ And Jesus answered and said to him, ‘Do you see these great buildings? Not one stone shall be left upon another, that shall not be thrown down.’ Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, ‘Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?’ ” (Mark 13:1-4)

Here, only two questions are recorded, so only His answer to those two questions are recorded.

And finally, in Like 21, we read: “Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, ‘These things which you see--the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.’ So they asked Him, saying, ‘Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?’ ” (Luke 21:5-7)

Here again, two questions are recorded, so answers to both of them are recorded.

Here, only two questions are recorded, so only His answer to those two questions are recorded.

So Matthew 24 covers both events that occurred in about 70 A.D. and events in the distant future. But both of the other two were only about the events that took place in approximately 70 A.D.

Keeping these points clear will greatly help in interpreting the answers Jesus gave in these three passages.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
I can't justify this position systematically. But I still feel that the beginning of the Olivet discourse clearly refers to a local event. 70 AD. Whereas. The end of the Olivet discourse. Clearly refers to a global cataclysmic event come parable withEdit the biblically global. No, a flood.

Hello Eric.
IMHO, Daniel 9 thru 12, the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse and Revelation are all a local event concerning the Jews of Judea/Jerusalem/Israel, not worldwide.
And one reason I am a Preterist, as true Preterism acknowledges that....

"Where the body/carcass is, there the eagles be gathered" Matt 24 Luke 17 70ad and Revelation

Eze 36:1
1 “And thou, son of adam!, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD!
4 ‘therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around—
Eze 39:4
“You shall fall upon the mountains of Israel, you and all your troops and the peoples who are with you; I will give you to birds of prey of every sort and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
Eze 39:17
“And as for you, son of man, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Speak to every sort of bird and to every beast of the field:
“Assemble yourselves and come; Gather together from all sides to My sacrificial meal Which I am sacrificing for you,
A great sacrificial meal on the mountains of Israel,That you may eat flesh and drink blood.
Revelation 19:17
And I saw one Messenger standing in the sun, and He cries-out in great voice, saying to all the birds, the ones flying in mid-heaven,
"hither! be ye being gathered! into the great Supper of the God.

Captivity and sword Luke 21:24 Revelation 13:10

Jeremiah 15:2
“And it shall be, if they say to you, ‘Where should we go?' then you shall tell them, ‘Thus says the LORD:
“Such as are for death, to death;
And such as are for the sword, to the sword;
And such as are for the famine, to the famine;
And such as are for the captivity, to the captivity.” '

[Sword and captive/captivity are mentioned together in only 2 verses of the NT:]

Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.
And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.
[Deuteronomy 28:68/Revelation 11:2/13:10]

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints

Daniel 11 and 12 are not Global...

Daniel 11:
33 And ones being intelligent<7919> of people they shall cause to understand to many-ones,
and they stumble<3782> in sword and in blaze<3852>, in captivity<7628> and in plunder days<3117>
34 And in their stumbling, they are helped — a little help, and joined to them have been many with flatteries. 35 And some of the teachers do stumble for refining by them, and for purifying, and for making white — till the end of the time, for [it is] yet for a time appointed.

The tribulation will be worldwide

LittleLambofJesus said:
Yeah, lot of itchy ears around on CF:

I will probably be watching it on TV like I did with the Gulf War event. What will you be doing?

Zephaniah 1:15
That day is a day of wrath,
A day of distress<6869> and constaint<4691>,
A day of devastation and desolation, A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,

Luke 21:23
“But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress<318> in the land
and wrath upon this people.

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "choinex of grain/wheat a denari and three choinex of barleys a denari,
and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring".
Revelation 9:6
And in those days men shall seeking the death, and not no shall be finding it;
and shall be desiring/yearning<1937> to be dying, and the death is fleeing from them.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.....

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive. The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;........
At the recital of this melancholy and affecting occurrence, the whole city stood aghast, and poured forth their congratulations on those whom death had hurried away from such heartrending scenes.
.

.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2018

Biblewriter said:
It leaves no room, for instance, for any fulfillment of the attack by "the Assyrian" whose daily progress is so precisely detailed in Isaiah 10:28-32. We know for a fact that no ancient Assyrian king attacked Jerusalem by following a route even approximately like this one.

James, I think the Assyrian is likely Gog. I was listening to Irvin Baxter, You Tube, and his saying that Trump's peace plan is the 7 year covenant. I don't agree with him, but it might be that there will be some sort of peace plan entered into, the covenant with death and hell, that sets up Israel living in the peace and safety mode of Ezekiel 38 more definitively.

The Trump plan has been put off till February. But Macron of France said early this fall that if Trump doen't do something by the end of December, that he Macron would introduce his own peace plan. Macron needs to do something to divert away from the yellow vests uprising. We'll see.

BABerean2 · Dec 29, 2018

Douggg said:
I was listening to Irvin Baxter, You Tube, and his saying that Trump's peace plan is the 7 year covenant. I don't agree with him, but it might be that there will be some sort of peace plan entered into, the covenant with death and hell, that sets up Israel living in the peace and safety mode of Ezekiel 38 more definitively.

I learned some things from Pastor Irvin Baxter and bought a set of his DVDs several years ago.

He has rejected the pretrib rapture doctrine, but still retains much of the doctrine which John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
I learned some things from Pastor Irvin Baxter and bought a set of his DVDs several years ago.

He has rejected the pretrib rapture doctrine, but still retains much of the doctrine which John Nelson Darby brought to America about the time of the Civil War.

.

Hi BAB.......are you a Dispensationalist?
JND is quite a character.........

John Nelson Darby - False Teacher/False Prophet?

Dorothea said:
This guy along with others I'd read about and heard about, sound like false teachers during a time in history when much supposed "revelations" were happening in the UK and around that area. Here's some info on Darby:

John Nelson Darby

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A "particular interpretation of Christ's return ... was developed by an Irish Protestant, John Nelson Darby (1800-1882)." Darby saw a second coming of Christ, which he "believed would precede the time of troubles, or 'tribulation,' mentioned in several New Testament passages, [which] he called the 'secret rapture.' It would be perceptible only to the true Christians, both living and dead, who would be united with Christ and protected from the tribulation. This rapture could occur at any time, Darby felt, a belief which added a sense of immediacy to his message. The prophecies relating to non-Christians, such as the binding of Satan and the Battle of Armageddon, would occur later. Christ would come a third time and conclude the history of the world. Furthermore, Darby believed that no denomination could encompass all of the present and past Christians who would be caught up in the secret rapture; hence, he believed that the true church was a spiritual entity, not a physically perceptible structure. Finally, like many other nineteenth-century millenarians and nonmillenarians, Darby divided the history of the world into a series of eras, or 'dispensations.'" [1]
John Nelson Darby spread his beliefs while visiting the United States and Canada 1862-1877. "He was a very appealing speaker and also intolerant to criticism. At first he tried to win members of existing Protestant congregations to his sect, but met with little success. He then spread his end-times message to influential clergymen and laymen in churches in major cities without insisting they leave their denominations." [2]
"The foundation of the Darbyite message was that when evil is seen in society, Christians are to rejoice because that is a sign of the imminent return of Christ." [3]
The "very foundation of the Darbyite philosophy was a belief that all manifestations of the decay or degeneration of civilization were but further signs of the imminent return of Christ to 'rapture' His saints." [4]
"Geographically, the doctrine moved from its original foothold in the large cities of New York, Boston, Chicago, and St. Louis to the northeast and Midwest. Later it spread to the West and South, where it is very strong still. The doctrine is not taught in the liberal Protestant denominations but is taught in independent nondenominational and full-gospel churches and in some evangelical churches. Fundamentalist churches do not realize how relatively new the doctrines are." [5]
"The term 'fundamentalist' has replaced the term 'conservative' in common usage, and the prime division within Protestant Christendom is now held in the public mind to be one between 'liberals' and 'fundamentalists', all the latter being Darbyite in doctrine." [6]
"But what is this Darbyism? We need to go to the British Isles to trace its roots. John Nelson Darby (1800-1882) was trained at Trinity College in Dublin, but soon became dissatisfied with institutional Christianity and its various denominations. At the age of 28 he started a small association devoted to Christian evangelism, and that group grew quickly, soon starting a second branch in Plymouth, England. By 1930 the group was given the name 'The Plymouth Brethren,' and the association continued to grow to form a number of chapters.
"Darby began to develop his seven-age dispensationalism about this time. By 1835 he added 'secret rapture,' and had gradually added dispensations up to 1838. One can imagine the excitement during those years as these men worked on their theories--it must have seemed as if God had unlocked the secrets of the Bible to them. Yet even a superficial study of the Brethrens' proceedings reveals that their road was a very rocky one, full of dissension and acrimony. Napolean Noel's two-volume The History of the Brethren (Denver: W. F. Knapp, 1936), in fact, documents one of the most contentious histories imaginable for a Christian fellowship. It is easy to conclude that Darby ran his organization with an iron hand, and was ruthless when one of the Brethren contradicted him on a fine point of his system." [7]

Darby's System

Darby's "system eventually became known as 'dispensationalism,' although it is more properly described as 'seven age dispensationalism' to distinguish it from the biblical 'two age dispensationalism' that recognizes two 'ages'" (Mt. 12:32, Gal. 1:4, Heb. 6:5). The system itself hardly needs explanation due to its immense popularity in modern Christian circles In short it offers the following seven dispensations (Scofield Bible note on Gen. 1:28):

1 - Gen. 1:28 - Innocence

2 - Gen. 3:7 - Conscience or moral responsibility

3 - Gen. 8:15 - Human Government

4 - Gen. 12:1 - Promise

5 - Ex. 19:1 - Law

6 - Acts 2:1 - Church

7 - Rev. 20:4 - Kingdom

"Darby divided the Bible into seven periods of time (dispensations) and eight ages. The present 'age' is not among them, it being unforeseen by Daniel and the rest of the Old Testament prophets and which is a great parenthesis inserted between the 69th and 70th week of Daniel. Advocates vary on whether the 'secret rapture' is to occur in the beginning, middle, or end of the 70th week."

"Darby's system provides for two tracks of salvation--one for Jews, and one for Gentiles. This had been the cause of another of the Brethren's internal battles, centering on B. W. Newton (1807-1899), who regarded this idea as a 'full fledged heresy.' Newton's voice would be echoed in our own era by modern theologian Bernard Ramm who wrote, 'The sharp division of the church and Israel, each going its own unique course through history into eternity is a remarkable piece of theological heresy.' Perhaps Darby had taken Rom. 11:26, 'And so all Israel will be saved,' out of its context--a passage intended to get Gentiles in Rome who had been treating Jews as second class citizens to understand through the olive tree allegory that God's glorious plan (the 'mystery' of Rom. 11:25) provided salvation for both Jews and Gentiles through Christ Jesus. Some of the Roman house churches were working at cross purposes with God by their treatment of the Christians of Jewish ancestry, and Paul wanted them to accept the Jews into their churches with the same love that they had for non-Jewish Christians (Rom 15:7)."

John Nelson Darby - SourceWatch

Darby supposedly had a vision of the Rapture and ideas he got. So did Joseph Smith. In fact, around the same time as Darby, Smith was around. Sounds like a crazy time.

Here is a podcast of the Orthodox view of this whole mess.

The Rapture Part 2 - The Man in Black Orthodox Podcast - Icon New Media Network

LittleLambofJesus said:
I don't think he is any different than the SDAs Ellen White or the JW's or the Mormons's Joseph Smith.
They all sound alike to me
.

BABerean2 · Dec 29, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Hi BAB.......are you a Dispensationalist?
JND is quite a character.........

John Nelson Darby - False Teacher/False Prophet?

I am very surprised that you would ask me that question after all of my posts that you have seen in the past.

The answer is NO.

.

Douggg · Dec 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
I am very surprised that you would ask me that question after all of my posts that you have seen in the past.

The answer is NO.

.

What you should do is post a video... :wave:

Or amend your screen name info to say "non-dispensationalist".

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2018

BABerean2 said:
I am very surprised that you would ask me that question after all of my posts that you have seen in the past.

The answer is NO.

.

Ahhh.....you talk about the Two Peoples of God doctrine....Thanks for reminding me....must be a senior moment, sorry.
Are you then a Preterist, Historicist, or other? Do you view any of the Olivet Discourse and/or Revelation as fulfilled? Thanks
[gotta love the search function]

Approaches to Eschatology
December 26, 2018 • 139 posts • 1396 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

#51 - BABerean2
See Colossians 2:16-17) Unlike Dispensational Theology, we actually can see the fact that Jesus fulfilled Jeremiah 31:31-34, at Calvary. We can see the word "now" in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18. We can see the word "church" in ...

Pre-Tribulation Rapture Refuted with Scripture
December 16, 2018 • 343 posts • 3803 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

#217 - BABerean2
the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, and Hebrews 12:22-24, the Two Peoples of God doctrine falls apart, and its pretrib removal of the Church falls ...
2 results in this thread

Was 1948 the Regathering of Israel in Bible Prophecy?
December 10, 2018 • 643 posts • 12524 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

#505 - BABerean2
Based on Acts chapter 2, the Church as a whole has never been a "Gentile Church". The statement is the Dispensationalists method of twisting reality to make their Two Peoples of God doctrine work. Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the ...

What Did The ECF Believe About End Times
November 28, 2018 • 127 posts • 1487 views
Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum

#125 - BABerean2
Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, and specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8. Otherwise, your Two Peoples of God doctrine would fall apart, and the pretrib removal of the Church falls with ...

.

claninja · Dec 29, 2018

Biblewriter said:
t leaves no room, for instance, for any fulfillment of the attack by "the Assyrian" whose daily progress is so precisely detailed in Isaiah 10:28-32. We know for a fact that no ancient Assyrian king attacked Jerusalem by following a route even approximately like this one.

This was in fact fulfilled:

The ancient assyrian king Sennacherib attacked and captured ALL the fortified cities of Judah, except Jerusalem.

2 kings 18:13 in the fourteenth year of the reign of Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria attacked and captured all the fortified cities of Judah.

Aiath, migron, michmash, geba, ramah, gibea, Laishah are all cities in Judah. Interestingly enough, the cities are listed in order of North to South, with Nob being the final city prior to Jerusalem.
Isaiah 10:28-32 Assyria has entered Aiath and passed through Migron, storing supplies at Michmash.
They have crossed at the ford: “We will spend the night at Geba.” Ramah trembles; Gibeah of Saul flees.Cry aloud, O daughter of Gallim! Listen, O Laishah! O wretched Anathoth! Madmenah flees;
the people of Gebim take refuge. Yet today they will halt at Nob, shaking a fist at the mount of the Daughter of Zion, at the hill of Jerusalem.

When King sennacherub attempted to coquer Jerusalem, AFTER conquering the cities of Judah, God sent an angel to kill many in the army, (might warriors, leaders, and commanders) of King sennecherub. Jerusalem was thus delivered from Assyria.
2 Chronicles 32:20-22 In response, King Hezekiah and the prophet Isaiah son of Amoz cried out to heaven in prayer, 21and the LORD sent an angel who annihilated every mighty warrior, leader, and commander in the camp of the king of Assyria. So he withdrew to his own land in disgrace. And when he entered the temple of his god, some of his own sons struck him down with the sword.

22So the LORD saved Hezekiah and the people of Jerusalem from the hand of King Sennacherib of Assyria and of all others, and He gave them rest on every side.

And so Isaiah 10:33-34 was fulfilled by God sending this angel to kill the mighty warriors, leaders, and commanders.
Isaiah 10:33-34 Behold, the Lord GOD of Hosts will lop off the branches with terrifying power. The tall trees will be cut down, the lofty ones will be felled. He will clear the forest thickets with an ax,and Lebanon will fall before the Mighty One

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
I see now how difficult it is to be systematic. In interpreting Matthew.

"This generation" Ought to mean the same "this generation" Every time it's used. Yet applying the same systematic logic. The "coming of the son of man" Ought to me the same thing every time it is used.

And in the Olivette Discourse. of Matthew 24. To 25, "this generation" is used. Which would imply the "first century?" Yet coming of the son of Man in glory. Is also repeatedly used? Both in reference to the destruction of the temple in 70ad. But also to final eternal judgment. Matthew 25:46.

Being blunt. The only systematic way. Of harmonizing all of the language used. In a completely straightforward manner. Would require that final eternal judgment occurred in 70 AD.

You are taking one way out of the impasse. By "bending" the interpretation of this generation in Matthew 24.

I understand full hyper preterists take another way out by Spiritualizing. The fiery final judgment. Language of Matthew 25 and 2 Peter. 3. And reading it into. 70. AD.

As of this moment I'm very confused. It's almost as if final eternal judgment should have occurred in 70. AD.

The only thing I can add is that in 70. AD there really was some. Sort of sorting of sheep from goats. Jesus ordered the Christians to flee. Jerusalem to Pella. On the other side of the Jordan River. Whereas non Christians remained in Jerusalem. So, in some sense there really was a sorting of sheep from goats. In a physical. Literal way. per Matthew 25:31-46

Someone sent me a link to this site that you and/or others may be interested in [I have yet to read thru the whole site].....................

JUDGMENT DAY IS OVER | THE GOOD NEWS ABOUT DADDY GOD's LOVE IN JESUS CHRIST
Statement of Faith | JUDGMENT DAY IS OVER

Judgment Day is over in 70AD | JUDGMENT DAY IS OVER

These Jewish 1st Century believers were previously under the Law. In the past, Israel had voluntarily become the enemies of God by choosing the Law on Sinai instead of trusting in His grace. It was a war that man started against God.
They made Him their judge instead of their provider. God was never angry with them and never wanted to put them under the Law and its wrath.
God is love, and He demonstrated it to the Jews that Christ died for them while they were sinners. Those who believed the words of Christ were saved from the wrath when they escaped the destruction that came upon the Jewish Old Covenant system in Jerusalem and throughout the Roman Empire in 70AD.

The old covenant system ended and God made a New Covenant to never judge the world but He gave His unfailing love and peace to establish us as His righteous children. At the end of Judgment Day, God made a promise that all things were new and there is no more judgment (Revelation 21:4-5).......................

There is no more special status for anyone because all people are equally holy and precious to Daddy God. The proof of the end of the law is the event of 70AD. If there are no more Jews today, then there are no more Gentiles. The Law of Moses is obsolete and therefore there are no more Gentiles today.

When God made “ALL” things new, He was talking about a new humanity where there is no more Jew or Gentile and no more sinners because there is no more Law! We are the new humanity living under the New Covenant where all people are born in Christ. The people under the law were made sinners without their free will but by the will of Adam. In the same way, after the day of 70AD, all people are born in Christ apart from their free will. You have no choice and you are born irreversibly righteous and perfect in Christ!

The wrath of the law was finished in 70AD for both Jew and Gentile, and it will not be repeated.
================================================
This site is a treasure trove of articles concerning the 70ad event:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/category/significance-of-ad70/

The [preterist] system of interpretation which I have adopted is not, I am sorry to say, of quite so easy and flattering a character. It demands an ardent love of truth in the Inquirer, as also extensive and unwearied research; and, when this has been submitted to, it affords nothing beyond Apostolic Christianity in the establishment of the New Covenant; and this as once effected throughout the whole world by miracle, with the fact, that nothing can be, or may be, either added thereto, or taken therefrom. - Samuel Lee

Are there some good reasons to condemn Preterism as heresy? As much as Dispensationalism.
What is a Preterist? Someone that believes there is absolutely nothing left in the future for the elect! If you must give us a label, we are historicists, which means we believe Bible prophecy has been fulfilled and is now fulfilling in world history.............................

.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2018

claninja said:
This was in fact fulfilled:

The ancient assyrian king Sennacherib attacked and captured ALL the fortified cities of Judah, except Jerusalem.
2 kings 18:13 in the fourteenth year of the reign of Hezekiah, Sennacherib king of Assyria attacked and captured all the fortified cities of Judah.
Aiath, migron, michmash, geba, ramah, gibea, Laishah are all cities in Judah. Interestingly enough, the cities are listed in order of North to South, with Nob being the final city prior to Jerusalem.

Very interesting!
That made me think of the "cities of the nations" in Revelation 16. That has always been a tough passage for me and now I may delve into it more. Thanks.......

Rev 16:19
Now the great City was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.
And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

Jer 4:16
“Make mention to the nations,
Yes, proclaim against Jerusalem,
That watchers come from a far country
And raise their voice against the cities of Judah.

Eze 36:4
‘therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD!
Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the rivers, the valleys, the desolate wastes, and the cities that have been forsaken, which became plunder and mockery to the rest of the nations all around—

Zep 3:6
“I have cut off nations,
Their fortresses are devastated;I have made their streets desolate,
With none passing by.
Their cities are destroyed; There is no one, no inhabitant.

Here are some interesting maps from the 1st century Israel and Judea:

https://www.preteristarchive.com/category/significance-of-ad70/

https://www.preteristarchive.com/jerusalem-siege-maps/?highlight=maps

Related

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War: Military
March 26, 2014

In "Arts and Charts"

John Denton: Prophetic Day or Year - Jerusalem's Destruction and the Seventy Weeks (1998)
July 18, 2018

In "2018 Site Updates"

Adam Maarschalk: The Historical Events Leading Up to 70 AD (2009)
January 7, 2018

In "Christian History"

claninja · Dec 29, 2018

Biblewriter said:
It leaves no room for a time when Israel has the borders so precisely defined in Ezekiel 47:15-20, or for the division of the land as Described in the following chapter, Ezekiel 48.

This is where it becomes important to understand that the language of the OT was merely a picture of the true spiritual reality. This can summed up by Christ's statement to nicodemus.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”

The old testament is the picture, not the reality of the true promises of God. Did jesus mean to be literally born again? No, thus we can apply understand like this to the OT. Paul does this multiple times throughout the NT.

Paul quotes Ezekiel 37 as being fulfilled. Noting the sanctuary of God is not a literal brick and mortar building but the spiritual body of Christ.
2 Corinthians 2:16 For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:“I will live with them
and walk among them, and I will be their God,

Ezekiel 37:26-27 I will set My sanctuary among them forever. My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.

The temple and city of Ezekiel 43-48 are the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21-22

1.) water flowing from temple
Ezekiel 47:1 Then the man brought me back to the entrance of the temple, and I saw water flowing from under the threshold of the temple toward the east (for the temple faced east). The water was coming down from under the south side of the temple, south of the altar.

Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me a river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb

2.) fruit trees on either side of the river used for healing
Ezekiel 47:12 Along both banks of the river, fruit trees of all kinds will grow. Their leaves will not wither, and their fruit will not fail. Each month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will be used for food and their leaves for healing.

Revelation 22:2 On either side of the river stood a tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit and yielding a fresh crop for each month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.

3.) there are 12 gates with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel
These will be the exits of the city:

Beginning on the north side, which measures 4,500 cubits long, 31the gates of the city will be named after the tribes of Israel. On the north side there will be three gates: the gate of Reuben, the gate of Judah, and the gate of Levi.

32On the east side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Joseph, the gate of Benjamin, and the gate of Dan.

33On the south side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Simeon, the gate of Issachar, and the gate of Zebulun.

34And on the west side, which will be 4,500 cubits long, there will be three gates: the gate of Gad, the gate of Asher, and the gate of Naphtali.

Revelation 21:12-13 he city had a great and high wall with twelve gates inscribed with the names of the twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve angels at the gates. There were three gates on the east, three on the north, three on the south, and three on the west.

And the New Jerusalem of Revelation 21-22 is the body of Christ

1.) It is the bride of Christ
Revelation 21:9-10 Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city of Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,

Ephesians 5:31-32 or this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”b This mystery is profound, but I am speaking about Christ and the church.

2.) the foundation is built on the apostles
Revelation 21:14 The wall of the city had twelve foundations bearing the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus Himself as the cornerstone.

3.) where God dwells with his people
revelation 21:3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying: “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man, and He will live with them. They will be His people,

Ephesians 2:22 And in Him you too are being built together into a dwelling place for God in His Spirit.

Thus the fulfillment of Ezekiel is not in a physical land allotment or brick and mortar temple but in the gathering to Christ and his kingdom, which is the true promise land

Isaiah 10:21 A remnant will return,a a remnant of Jacob,to the Mighty God.

2 corinthians 6:1-2 As God’s fellow workers, then, we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain. 2For He says: “In the time of favor I heard you, and in the day of salvation I helped you.”a Behold, now is the time of favor; now is the day of salvation!

Isaiah 49:8 “In the time of favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and appoint you to be a covenant for the people, to restore the land,

1 corinthians 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 29, 2018

claninja said:
This is where it becomes important to understand that the language of the OT was merely a picture of the true spiritual reality. This can summed up by Christ's statement to nicodemus.
The old testament is the picture, not the reality of the true promises of God. Did jesus mean to be literally born again? No, thus we can apply understand like this to the OT. Paul does this multiple times throughout the NT.

Paul quotes Ezekiel 37 as being fulfilled. Noting the sanctuary of God is not a literal brick and mortar building but the spiritual body of Christ.
2 Corinthians 2:16 For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said:“I will live with them
and walk among them, and I will be their God,.............
1 corinthians 2:14 The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned

Excellent!
Have you seen this thread?
Revelation is all COVENANTLE, a battle between the flesh of the OC Mosaic Law[Old Jerusalem and the NC Law of Christ and Faith[New Jerusalem].

New House New Stones
John in OC Tabernacle in Revelation

I like studying about the Camp, Court and Tabernacle in the OT.
While I was recently reading thru this passage in Revelation 1, something just struck out at me.

Revelation 1:
10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind<3694> me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,
12 Then I turned<1994> to see the Voice that spoke with me.
And having turned<1994> I saw seven golden lampstands<3087>,
13 and in the midst of the seven lampstands [One] like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band.

I can vision John standing inside the holy place of a Tabernacle. [John would probably be a Hebrew Jew and perhaps even of a priestly class].
While he is standing there, he hears a Voice BEHIND him.
He TURNS and sees Jesus in midst of lamp-stands. ["turn" can also mean convert]

Symbolically, [this is just my view], John would be facing the OC Table of Showbread. ..North.
The Altar and inner curtain would have been on his left...West
Then be turns, facing Jesus and the lamp-stands...South
The outer veil/entrance would then be on his left .....East

In essence, John is first facing the OC Table of Show-bread
and when he turns, he sees the NC "Living Bread", Jesus,

John 6
48 I AM the Bread of Life.
51 I AM the Living Bread that came down from heaven.
If anyone eats of this Bread, he will live forever.
And this Bread, which I will give for the life of the world, is My flesh.”

I found this rather interesting video which helped me visualize the Camp, Court and inside of the Tabernacle. Pretty nice I think.......

Virtual tour of Tabernacle

This post concerns the "Stones will cry out!" including a video.

New House New Stones
"Stones will cry out!"

Luke 19:
39 And some of the Pharisees from the crowd said to Him, “Teacher! rebuke Your disciples.”
40 And answering He said, “I am saying to ye, that if these will be silent, the stones shall be crying-out.
44 And shall be leveling thee and thy offspring in thee,
and not shall be leaving stone upon stone in thee, instead which not thou knew the time of thy visitation/episkophV <1984>".

Studies In The Scriptures - Tabernacle Shadows - Chapter 1

The Camp--The Gate--
The Court----The Brazen Altar--The Laver----
The First Veil--
The Tabernacle---The Table--The Lampstand--The Golden Altar--
The Second Veil--The Mercy Seat and Ark
The Significance of These and Their Antitypes.

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