The violence in the OT

Cis.jd said:

Yes.. but the problem is that infants and animals where brought in. That is where it gets hard to justify. One can say "well, that was war.. even during our modern wars innocent people get killed due to the cross fire or just being with in the vicinity of the bomb. However back then it was through the sword in where crossfiring was non-existent unless through archery or catapults but even then these infants and animals where ordered to be killed.

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It is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for 'violence' in those two verses above is 'ha'mas'.

This kind of sidesteps the question, but when I have heard this before from non-believers, they have said, "just read Exodus". Thing is, I can only find the Israelites killing one person in the book of Exodus. Pharaoh does plenty of killing, God does plenty of killing, but...Moses kills a guard.

While I still have to address their main point in the end (since there are 3 books after that), pointing this out does highlight the fact that they are arguing something they know very little about. Getting them to not just parrot what someone else told them and get them to actually study that which they're arguing is important.

Cis.jd said:

Because they are infants. It's like if i am seeking vengeance on an Isis member by not just giving him death but also killing his wife, mother, and 1 month year old baby. Unless all of them were involved, killing all of them for the Isis-man's transgressions is mafia-like.

I'm not here to argue against anyone, just playing the role of "devils advocate". There has to be a much reasonable answer here because regardless of what you think about non-believers these answers are not rational reasons.

God is the author of morality but not an alterer. Now, i for one believe that certain things that are considered immoral (or in catholic views mortal sins) can change depending on the circumstances.
Murder for example is obviously immoral however we know that there are imaginable circumstances in where we may have to do it (self-defense, bringing justice).

So the problem here isn't trusting in God but bringing a rational to it because even though God's ways surpass our own, he is still an intelligent God. So these things can and should have a rational behind them.

For example, the killing of the 1st born in Egypt (i believe) can be rationally explained. There are some arguments from theologians that believe the 1st born being the actual first born child of an Egyptain is a misconception and the real "first born" was the actual Egyptian court or advisors of the Pharaoh.

While others have explained to be that God was giving retribution by returning what the Egyptians did to the hebrews as told in during the early story of Moses.. and God didn't shed blood but just took their soul. Whatever of the two, they are both actually understandable. Noah's flood can also be rationalized.

This however needs one.

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God is not subject to the laws He gives to mankind. If a king commands the beheading of a traitor is the king or executioner guilty of murder under the law? Of course not! Again, who is the creator of morality, you or God? You cannot both claim God is "mafia-like" for ordering the extermination of heathens and at the same time acknowledge God is justified in taking anyone's life whenever He chooses. You cannot eat your cake and have it too. God giveth and God taketh away all life, it does not matter how He does so, it is never wrong for Him to do so.

Furthermore, in commanding the Israelites to kill the heathen children God did NOT command them to sin. What God prohibits is murder, killing unjustly and unlawfully, thus killing by the command of God is not murder and not a sin because God's commands are by nature always inherently just, right and good.

(That is not to say killing is something God wishes were present in the world or that there are no consequences for even righteous killing, but killing under God's orders is not a sin as it is not against God)

The answer to this supposed problem is reasonable. God is just in doing and commanding whatever He wants and those who follow those commands are also good and just. The old, the young, the innocent and the evil, all of these live and die by the hand of God.

Check out Divine Command theory: Divine command theory - Wikipedia

Also, you are a Catholic right? Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius. Deus lo Vult!

If you want to know why all the stuff in the OT happen, well here it is, but whether you can except or not, I can't help you there.


1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
1Co 10:3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
1Co 10:4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
1Co 10:5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

This goes back to "why would a good God kill people." First off, that neglects the fact that God is who even created that life in the first place. But second, everyone dies.

Cis.jd said:

I understand that topics like this have been done a million times. The occasional atrocities in the OT that Atheists normally use as a reference to the evils in religion.

"slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Is an example of one verse. I've read and heard arguments being that they where sinners and they were doing bad things to the Hebrews for 400 years.. but does this justify the killing of babies and animals?

I'm not going to debate because I and most of you certainly have encountered these arguments many times. I'm just interested to see how believers here can explain it intelligently and in ways that (if possible) is understandable for secular people.

For your reference:
Canaanites Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21
Amalekites 1 Samuel 15
The harsh death penalties in Leviticus.

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I don't get why this question is often seen as separate to 'why is there so much violence in the world'. In all armed conflicts women and children are often victims. During all wars over the last century we, as in the West, have killed huge numbers of civilians - women, children, the elderly etc., in much higher numbers than the comparatively tiny state of Israel ever did. Violent conflict in which innocent people are killed has been a regular part of human behaviour as far back as records go, and in the ancient near east it was a frequent occurrence. If the fledgling Hebrew nation hadn't defended itself or taken aggressive measures to ensure some level of security then it would have disappeared.

God created all life, and He has the right to take it. If God did not create you with a moral compass to think you know who's "guilty", you would not be asking that question.

Let's get real, shall we? God deals in reality, so we should be real as much as possible. In reality, our God was at war in the O.T. He was at war with a serpent, and a nest of serpents was discovered in His yard.

Now if you discover a nest of serpents in your yard, what are you going to do? Be real now. Do you think you are supposed to be nice because you are a Christian? I don't believe that. My bible says blessed are the meek, not the weak. No, in reality you are going to dig out that nest of serpents and kill every last one, males, females, babies, even any living thing you find together with them. Is that an atrocity? I don't call it that, I call it self defense. You have the right of self defense: I think we can allow our God the same right.

Still talking about reality, what would it be if God allowed those serpents to live and they eventually killed some of His people?

Bottom line: Our God is the God of rightness, not of niceness.

Cis.jd said:

If a king commands the murder of infants, animals, and just who have no involvement other than biological affiliation, then that is an evil king. I'm sorry, i just don't see "he is God, so anything he wants to do just becomes good" as a reasonable argument. It's showing a God of hypocrisy.

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You are clearly twisting an analogy. Just as a finite imperfect king is not subject to the laws of his subjects so to is God not subject to the laws He has set over mankind.

It is not that what God wants to do "becomes" good, rather God and His actions simply are good just as God simply is. Are you implying God is not good to begin with? Be careful of your words.

Cis.jd said:

What was heathen about the infants and animals? There is just no actual rational to right that off as just all because he is god. If I replaced God with Allah or Vishnu you would see this as proof that their religions are satanic.

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If God decided to snuff out their life in their sleep or sent Angels to kill them would you complain? Every time a baby dies do you question God's morality?

And no, your argument that I am hypocritical is not valid. A religion, like any belief system, can only be validly critiqued under its own premise. For example it would be worthless to argue to an ancient Norseman that Thor was not worth worshiping because he killed people who annoyed him, while on the other hand such arguments would be effective against 4th century Romans who could not reconcile the actions of their gods as written in their plays with their philosophical beliefs regarding the gods.

God gives life and God takes life in any way He wishes. There is no difference between God taking a child's life peacefully in their sleep and the child being killed in a God ordered extermination.

Cis.jd said:

This is not reasonable. You are saying "well it's evil but if God says do it, then now it's good because he is god so even it's rape, butchering babies, and killing animals who aren't doing anything is completely justifiable because he is god".

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Please, refrain from trying to vilify one side of the argument by adding in arguments and rhetoric which are invalid in the discussion. We are discussing God ordered killing, stick to it.

And yes, killing is justified if it is God. God kills every day. As i am typing this sentence someone died by God's hand. God is not subject to the laws He gave humanity and killing at the command of God is not murder.

Cis.jd said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not here criticize the Bible the way an atheist would, but you can't seriously think these are actual answers because at the end of the day, even if this God exists.. why would anyone want to worship that? How can i understand what goodness is when everything that I know that i would see is evil and told to be evil by him is nullified by his actions?

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You are debating like an Atheist. Your entire argument revolves around your own standard of right and wrong. You think it is wrong for God to kill a baby... well God clearly disagrees with you.

Is it evil for God to take life that He created and gave? No. We are to follow God's commandments because God is good. God is not good because of His commandments. Step back for a moment, think on this in prayer and let your understanding be in line with the infinite understanding of God.

Cis.jd said:

I understand that topics like this have been done a million times. The occasional atrocities in the OT that Atheists normally use as a reference to the evils in religion.

"slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.’”

Is an example of one verse. I've read and heard arguments being that they where sinners and they were doing bad things to the Hebrews for 400 years.. but does this justify the killing of babies and animals?

I'm not going to debate because I and most of you certainly have encountered these arguments many times. I'm just interested to see how believers here can explain it intelligently and in ways that (if possible) is understandable for secular people.

For your reference:
Canaanites Numbers 21:2-3; Deuteronomy 20:17; Joshua 6:17, 21
Amalekites 1 Samuel 15
The harsh death penalties in Leviticus.

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I agree the OT is bizarre, those are questions that only God can answer maybe. God did visit the earth in the NT and proclaimed a totally different religion than the OT.

Cis.jd said:

First of all, you are the one who brought in a finite imperfect king in the argument "If a king commands the beheading of a traitor is the king or executioner guilty of murder under the law? Of course not!"

You are saying that the king isn't guilty of murder because he, being the law maker, decided for the traitor to be slain. Now, this analogy is being presented to you it's proper context, where the king not only murders the innocent, but an infant. Now you shrug this off as to how i can't use "finite kings"?

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Right, the king wold not be guilty of murder nor would his executioner. The citizenry might not like it, but according to the law it would not be murder and the only way to change that would be to depose the king, set up a new ruler and change the laws. Do you acknowledge this fact?

Now you and I too in the above scenario would condemn it because of the higher law of God, but of course this was simply an analogy in an argument where you have presumed to judge God, and there is no higher law than God. Tell me if you disagree with any of these assertions:

• God is the creator and source of morality.
  
• God is good. He is unchanging in His goodness.
  
• God is just. All things He does are perfectly just and right.
  
• God cannot sin or command His people to sin.
  
• God gives all life and God takes all life. No one lives or dies but by the breath and hand of God.
  
• God is not subject to laws He gives humanity.
  
• God condemns murder, unjust killing, but not all killing in any circumstance.

If you believe all of these then logically you must admit God and his people are perfectly justified in the actions you have criticized. If you do not believe these things... I'm not going to say who is and is not a heretic, but...

Cis.jd said:

If the baby dies of natural causes or the hands of someone, no. But the ordering of babies getting murdered is eligible for questioning.

There actually is. The earlier isn't violent, while the later is.

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Nothing God does is eligible for questioning.

So a baby dying by violence is worse than a baby dying from natural causes... because? God took the breath of life out of them either way. It was their time to leave this earth, whether the means of their departure was by sickness or termination.

Are you having trouble with this because of your belief in babies burning in hell or being stuck in purgatory? I don't have that problem as I do not believe in original sin.

Cis.jd said:

How is it invalid to the discussion? That was actually what you are saying. There is a high difference between taking someones life as soul taker from taking someones life by getting ordering them to be slaughtered, much more if they are innocent. Come on get some sense here. You know deep down that you would have a problem of this, if this was a different god of a different religion being discussed.
I'm not debating like an atheist, i'm debating with reason.

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You are playing God just like an Atheist. You have set yourself up as the author of morality and are judging God, claiming He may take life in one way and not the other, denying the inherent goodness of God and all His actions, etc. This is reason without wisdom, the foolishness of the world, the sin of pride. Repent.

Cis.jd said:

And your reasoning fits every single radical we know in history. Take a look at Islam, look at all the violence they have under their religious beliefs.. beheading, bombing.. these muslims believe it is not wrong because of the same form of divine authority. We know these jihadists have a evil religion and evil god because what kind of god would allow kids even as young as 8 years old to be crucified or even getting their heads cut off? Whether you believe their god exists is meaningless because they have the same views in justification for their actions as you do.

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May God grant me such grace that I may attain to even a fraction of the holiness of the righteous prophet Elijah who slaughtered the prophets of Baal, or of David who burned the Ammonites in a brick-kiln, or Peter who wrought a twofold slaughter upon Ananias and Sapphira, or of Enoch who shall return again and burn the wicked with fire from his mouth, etc! God wants us to be radicals for the faith.

No, we know Jihadists are evil because they do not worship the true God. That they do many other horrifying acts in the service of evil simply serves to show how evil they are. And yes, in their worldview they are justified, but that does not matter as there is absolute good and absolute evil and both are defined by God. The Israelites when conquering Canaan had much the same justification in their beliefs as Muslims who seek to take Jerusalem have in theirs, but only one was truly justified by God and therein lies the difference.

Are you really Catholic? I don't get how you can be so squeamish on the matter of God ordered killings and belong to the Church of the Crusades and Inquisitions.

Cis.jd said:

infant

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"and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it." Ecclesiastes 12:7

Looking at the entire populations of those ancient cities who were given a death sentence for their way of life, consider the thief on the cross. "And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” Luke 23:43

So what about those infants and where will they appear? It strikes me that they'll be in far better hands than their parents.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

The natural mind cannot grasp the truth.

Even calling that verse an example of an atrocity is carnal, not spiritual.

.... ... what does God call it, and did God give a reason for it ? (in Scripture)...

that's another possible key to understanding ....

yet in any case, God is always Perfect, in Wisdom, Judgment, Justice and Mercy, Perfect in Every Way. Even when not understood ........

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Gee - thats not a very comforting answer. Thats pretty well saying - you cant explain the violence either