The quiet despair of Protestants

Hazelelponi · Dec 28, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
many of the Protestants I talk to believe that there is a Biblical truth, we just can't find it

believing we have an inability to resolve our differences is a far cry from believing we can't find the truth.

I believe we have an inability to resolve our theological differences. You offering up a human being and calling him infallible doesn't help to resolve any difference. It serves only to highlight the fact our differences will never be able to be resolved.

I have a hope. That hope is Jesus the Christ. God. I place my hope no where else.

DamianWarS · Dec 28, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!

sola scriptura comes from a place when the church had a lot of misgivings and abuse of power in the name of infallibility. to protect against this abuse a credible and non corruptible solution was to go back to the beginning and this is why it's called the reformation as by design it is meant to reform.

This was able to happen because of something called the printing press invented in the mid-15th century which made information widely available and inexpensive compared to what they used to be and people of power who want to keep an ignorant following don't like this. The printing press led to the first printed critical greek text in the early 16th century which then lead to the scripture being translated into different languages by reformist like tyndale which got him burned at the stake and also luther in his famous luther bible. This same critical greek text also was the greek base text behind the Geneva Bible (1560) and the KJV (1611). Essentially the reformation was inevitable and it's primer was the printing press.

Sola Scriptura is not about rejecting divine inspiration it is about rejecting human corruption. History shows us there was a wide array of examples of corruption in the church from the top down and during the 16th century sola scriptura was a good solution.

marineimaging · Dec 28, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

With all due respect I do not see how anyone can believe this if you have visited a Holy Spirit filled church in America today. How many of those students who gather in a club fashion were actually raised in a true bible believing Christian home - because the truth is preached as Jesus Christ and it is He who walks in the light and leads us to the truth. Men have issues and manifest them as confusion to those who are not sure what to believe either.

Albion · Dec 28, 2018

Just Another User said:
Of course they were considered lawlessness because the rejected the church and the state being one.

That's not the reason, however. Watching them brought this impression from onlookers. It was not a judgment made on the basis of them disagreeing with some dogmas or the claimed authority of one of the established churches.

Albion · Dec 28, 2018

☦Marius☦ said:
Actually over the years most historians agree that the Inquisition was greatly exaggerated by Protestant press. They estimate out of the 160k trialed in the two inquisitions, only 1% of that were actually executed.

"Actually executed" isn't much consolation, if we consider what the Inquisition did short of execution.

And then we have the wholesale destruction of peoples without the bother of holding trials and formal executions. In any case, there is nothing in the history of Protestantism that rises to the level of the RC Inquisitions.

Albion · Dec 28, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but many of the Protestants I talk to believe that there is a Biblical truth, we just can't find it.

Thank you, Alex. Maybe we are getting somewhere. So the issue is NOT that "Protestants" think that there are no Biblical truths.

Looking back at it, I suppose that would've been a better way to word it.

All right, but I think it would be helpful if you would be explicit about what you have in mind. Tell us, if you remember, exactly what you remember was said by those people about knowing the truth. Is it the case that Protestant churchgoers really did say, in effect, "who knows?" or "there is no way of telling (from the Bible) what is true and what is not?"

This was a very good, peaceful post, but it means so much more to see it coming from a non-Catholic (I assumed you were Catholic at first!). It's posts like this that bring about unity & legitimate discussion across people of different groups.

You're very kind.

chilehed · Dec 28, 2018

Tree of Life said:
Your argument is that since God has spoken infallibly in the Scriptures that therefore the Roman church teaches infallibly concerning faith and morals.

No, that's not at all what he said, nor is it the position of the Catholic Church.

Christie insb · Dec 28, 2018

I think many things we don't understand. When we see Him face to face, things that seem contradictory will fit together. I think God gave us these theological mysteries to contemplate and rejoice in God's complexity. It's beautiful, like the Grand Canyon, a testimony to the fact that He is God and we ... are not. We can't even understand how the human brain works . How on Earth do we think our intellect can comprehend God? Yet He meets us when we think deeply and prayerfully on His nature.

The only thing I want to disagree with you on is the idea that only the Catholic Church claims to be led by the Holy Spirit

redleghunter · Dec 28, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!

Sounds like a college age despair.

redleghunter · Dec 28, 2018

BBAS 64 said:
Good day,

Most of what you have stated here and the conclusions you have adopted for yourself lie out side of the Scholarship of the Roman Church herself...

You are an island.

Raymond E. Brown: Roman Catholics who appeal explicitly to Spirit-guided church teaching are often unaware that their church has seldom if ever definitively pronounced on the literal meaning of a passage of Scripture, i.e., what the author meant when he wrote it. Most often the church has commented on the on-going meaning of Scripture by resisting the claims of those who would reject established practices or beliefs as unbiblical. Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), p. 31.

Continuing in the next sentence, Brown says, “Moreover, church interpretations of Scripture in Roman Catholicism are affected by qualifications laid out in reference to church teaching in general which have the effect of recognizing historical conditioning.” Raymond E. Brown, An Introduction to the New Testament (New York: Doubleday, 1997), pp. 31-32.

Raymond E. Brown: To the best of my knowledge the Roman Catholic Church has never defined the literal sense of a single passage of the Bible.” Raymond E. Brown, The Critical Meaning of the Bible (New York: Paulist Press, 1981), p. 40.

In Him,

Bill

You would think an infallible magisterium would want to infallibly interpret the Sacred Scriptures.

prodromos · Dec 28, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

John Henry Newman was wrong about that. I wonder what else he was wrong about?

Quid est Veritas? · Dec 29, 2018

It is a difference of perspective. Everyone agrees Jesus is the Truth, or they wouldn't be Christian, but the question is how much can we humans grasp of such truths? Can an institution really define and delimit it, in its biblical variant or not? What man touches often he defiles, as the hypocrisy and sins present in most churches clearly point to. That is why we need Christ even more, as we are not capable of doing so alone. Catholics feel that Christ is present within the Catholic Church, doing this in fact; Protestants are more wary. As Jesus says, you'll know them by their fruits.

This speaks of the difference in their underlying paradigms, of integrative vs symbolic: I posted something CS Lewis wrote about it recently.

The difference between Catholics and Protestants according to CS Lewis

Catholics integrate our mundane worldly institutions and understandings with divine Grace, with infallibility. The Pope is the Vicar of Christ afterall. Protestants see them as too worldly, too human, but pointing perhaps to a perfected Form, to Christ - but that also means that they themselves are still fallible in the here and now.

Just Another User · Dec 29, 2018

Albion said:
That's not the reason, however. Watching them brought this impression from onlookers. It was not a judgment made on the basis of them disagreeing with some dogmas or the claimed authority of one of the established churches.

I think you're too quick to separate both probabilities to be mutually exclusive. Due to them rejecting church and state and other facilities of earthly government power which rejected Christ's law (e.g. oaths) they were thus claimed to be lawless. Interestingly however, they were probably the most law abiding citizens in their respective nations if it didn't contradict their main tenets of faith.

BobRyan · Dec 29, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!

1. The entire Protestant Reformation is based on the irrefutable fact that the Bible is the Word of God - and is to be used to test doctrine and tradition as we see in Acts 17:11 and in 2 Tim 3:16. This is irrefutable.

2. The entire Protestant Reformation is founded on the idea that the RCC has some doctrinal error that is refuted by scripture. This is irrefutable.

3. All Christian denominations claim to be lead by the Holy Spirit - especially the one I belong to. Why even suggest that only the RCC claims that about itself?? This is irrefutable.

4. Every denomination has its own magisterium just as the RCC denomination does. If the solution were "believe whatever your magisterium tells you to believe" like the RCC post above says about its own magisterium - then no progress at all is made... all groups remain as they are. This too is irrefutable.

aiki · Dec 29, 2018

Oscarr said:
A very good example of Christian bullying. "We are bigger than you, have Apostolic authority, therefore if you don't agree with us, we will torture you, hang you, or burn you at the stake."

And this is one of the reasons why a monolithic hierarchy in Christendom is such a bad idea. It consolidates and centralizes power within the Church in such a way as to make evil pogroms against the "infidel" and "heretic" and manipulative, power-serving control of Scripture possible.

RDKirk · Dec 29, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
[I know this is somewhat of a long post, so I have a request to make for those of you who will skim it: If you only read 1 paragraph, read the one I've bolded. Thank you, and may God's blessings be ever in your soul!]

Since coming to college, I've gotten very involved in the Christian Campus House (CCH). Due to the demographic of the area, most of the people I know are Protestant. I've been involved in small groups with CCH for 2 years now, talked a lot with a lot of my Protestant friends, and occasionally they say something that should be deeply worrying to all Christians: They believe that we don't have a Biblical truth. We often discuss many theological issues, like the dispute of faith-alone or faith-and-works, where a thoroughly Biblical argument can be made for both. In my small group now, we're reading through Romans, and various verses point in either direction.

But it's very unsettling to hear how so many decently devout Christians so readily accept the idea that we just don't know how to settle issues like faith-alone or faith-and-works. We all believe the Bible has the truth; Catholics, non-denominationals, Orthodox, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, even the Christians often thought to be unbiblical are fierce in reverence to Holy Scripture holding the truth. But interpretations within Scripture vary wildly, and far too many Christians say that we'll never know how to settle theological issues, because everyone's interpretation of the Bible is different.

In some ways, this is correct. Sermons have applied Scripture to various parts of life for 2,000 years now, and applying a given verse or idea to various circumstances can yield different results. This is the flexibility of Scripture.

But to say there is no theological truth seems like a contradiction to the nature of God!

Jesus is the truth; no one here will deny that. But does the truth say that we are saved by faith alone (believe in me and be saved), or by faith and works (all will be judged according to their works)?

God knows the Bible was written by many different authors to different audiences from different time periods. He knows that the Bible can be hard to interpret. He also sent us the gift of the Holy Spirit to help us out. And as long as He's forming a Church, it's only logical that He would grant His Church guidance by the Holy Spirit to lead people to the truth.

And, as convert John Henry Newman noted, there's only 1 church that even claims to have guidance from the Holy Spirit: The Catholic Church.

The infallibility of the Papacy is vital to preserving the truth, and the framework for it is laid out in the Bible. Papal Infallibility | Catholic Answers

While we all have the Holy Spirit guiding us, we're imperfect in accepting it. Much of these forums would not exist if we all accepted the Spirit enough to be led to the truth, because these arguments wouldn't exist. Throughout the Old Testament, it can be said that the Prophets have infallibility. The Bible itself is believed to be true because of inspiration from the Holy Spirit. So it would logically follow that God would grant the modern Church infallibility on theological & moral issues!

And I'll state it again: Everything the Catholic church teaches is thoroughly Biblical. Getting into the apologetics for this would be far too long, but Dave Armstrong has a number of writings on the topic, after he converted from Evangelical Protestantism after doing an in-depth Bible study to disprove Catholicism.

Please remember the Spirit of Gentleness & self-control as you write your responses, and thank you for taking the time to read & think about this critical issue in the Church! May God bless us all, and remind us of our complete & total dependence on Him!

Why in the world would you think you could have all the answers by the time you're in college?

Oh, never mind. I was in college once, and I thought by then I could have answer to the ultimate question of life, the universe and everything too.

Albion · Dec 29, 2018

Just Another User said:
I think you're too quick to separate both probabilities to be mutually exclusive. Due to them rejecting church and state and other facilities of earthly government power which rejected Christ's law (e.g. oaths) they were thus claimed to be lawless. Interestingly however, they were probably the most law abiding citizens in their respective nations if it didn't contradict their main tenets of faith.

I have already responded to this ^ particular objection, but bear in mind that I was only saying in my post that there is another side to the story. I wasn't saying which side a person ought to come down on but rather that it might be worth a second look before deciding.

Just Another User · Dec 29, 2018

Albion said:
I have already responded to this ^ particular objection, but bear in mind that I was only saying in my post that there is another side to the story. I wasn't saying which side a person ought to come down on but rather that it might be worth a second look before deciding.

Fair enough. I think I was arguing for semantics

Unofficial Reverand Alex · Dec 29, 2018

Albion said:
All right, but I think it would be helpful if you would be explicit about what you have in mind. Tell us, if you remember, exactly what you remember was said by those people about knowing the truth. Is it the case that Protestant churchgoers really did say, in effect, "who knows?" or "there is no way of telling (from the Bible) what is true and what is not?"

I've heard it from several of my Protestant friends, always along the lines of, "We have the Bible, and the Bible tells us all we need to know, but we just don't know how to interpret it to get solid teachings. We have discussions about various verses or parts of the Bible to try to figure it out, but we really don't know." They tend to bring it up for issues that aren't explicitly described in the Bible, such as marrying a non-Christian. There's the famous "Don't be yoked with non-believers" line, but in the Old Testament, Hosea is ordered by God to marry a prostitute. Malachi 3:6 says God doesn't change, so He wouldn't break His own law.

While the Catholic Church has never claimed to have a conclusive interpretation of the Bible, it does have a solid set of teachings, in the Catechism. I'm very thankful for God's gift of the Magisterium; even though human flaws are prevalent in the Church's leadership, we still have the fruits of 2,000 years of Scriptural scholars to benefit from for interpretations that go beyond individual verses, and take the Bible as a whole.

Albion · Dec 29, 2018

Unofficial Reverand Alex said:
I've heard it from several of my Protestant friends, always along the lines of, "We have the Bible, and the Bible tells us all we need to know, but we just don't know how to interpret it to get solid teachings. We have discussions about various verses or parts of the Bible to try to figure it out, but we really don't know."

Frankly, I'm very much surprised. Perhaps the key to this is that these are young people and may not have been very well schooled in the teachings of their faith when growing up. For sure, it's not characteristic of Protestants to say what those guys did.

While the Catholic Church has never claimed to have a conclusive interpretation of the Bible, it does have a solid set of teachings, in the Catechism. I'm very thankful for God's gift of the Magisterium; even though human flaws are prevalent in the Church's leadership, we still have the fruits of 2,000 years of Scriptural scholars to benefit from for interpretations that go beyond individual verses, and take the Bible as a whole.

Well, the truth is that those things are more in the category of slogans than reality.

The quiet despair of Protestants

:sighing:

Follower of Isa Al Masih

Texas Baptist now living in Colorado

Facilitator

Facilitator

Facilitator

Veteran

Well-Known Member

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Senior Veteran

In Memoriam to CS Lewis

Active Member

Junior Member

Regular Member

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner

Facilitator

Active Member

Pray in silence...God speaks softly

Facilitator

Similar threads