Did God predestine the Fall?

dad · Dec 28, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Don't know, assume no? You have no reason no justification for uncertainty about something so obvious as not choosing the time in history in which you would be born. You have nothing to support your pre-existence, except for pre-existing in the mind of God, that is in His thoughts, you had no being or existence in time as we count time.

I'll take this as an admission you don't know either.

Conceptual reality and materialized reality differ. I think you're a bit off kilter in reading Jeremiah. But I'll avoid the rabbit trail.

For lurkers, here is what he is scurrying away from

4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Evidently you completely missed or choose to ignore the points. There's actually a couple of points to the particular question you responded to. 1.) no, you did not choose, 2.) you were completely dependent on your parents to change your diapers. Your response does not follow from the question.

I thought I said I did not know? If you claim to know something, out with it.

So you know, if you do the homework, you'll realize that Calvinists do not deny people make choices. Most people, Calvinists and non, will agree our choices are a.) limited and b.) conditioned (by experience) and the role of c.) desires to the choices of the will.

The issue is the big choice in life...accepting Jesus or not. Never mind the rest for now. If someone claims that people are destined regardless of choice for heaven or hell, then our choice to accept the gift of Christ is not conditioned or limited!

What you fail to acknowledge is: a.) the immutability of God, and b.) the omniscience of God, and how these relate to choices, not just choices of beings other than God, but the free will choices of God, and the sovereignty of God's choices over the choices of other beings. Rather you hold the choices of other beings, creature choices in sovereignty over the choices of the sovereign Creator. Just the thought of predestination scares you, essentially it means God is sovereign and you are not!

It takes nothing away from God to realize that He created man to be in His likeness and have choice. It takes away from Him something fierce to claim He doomed people to hell with no choice in the matter.

dad · Dec 28, 2018

Hammster said:
Right. Deluded. Which means they think it’s the truth.

Right, they come to think this as a result of denying Jesus.

dad · Dec 28, 2018

Hammster said:
They have to choice to live perfect lives without sin.

I hope you are not saying people need to live perfect lives? Ha. No one has or will. Let's get real. He asks that we invite the Perfect One in! Then we can begin to be more like Him (although we will never attain this in our lifetimes!)

dad · Dec 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
Dad can you do me a solid on the below and count the “I will” statements and indicate Who is saying them?
Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.a 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

He said He would do wonders for Israel. Was this supposed to lead to a point?

dad · Dec 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
What makes us move to Jesus?

You want a one size fits all answer here? What makes some folks like..anything?

redleghunter · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
He said He would do wonders for Israel. Was this supposed to lead to a point?

The passage is the promise of the New Covenant. Read it again.

Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

dad · Dec 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
Back up the truck a bit.

Acts 9: NASB

1Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem

Since the question on His mind (evidenced by what He asked Jesus and what Jesus said) was whether Jesus was really God or not, was answered on the road trip, we can assume that was on Saul's heart and prayers.

He was not sure yet, so he kept his day job. No surprise there. The surprise is how Jesus answered abruptly and told him to get a new job!

dad · Dec 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
Ok good. Who initiated this telephone call?

If we pray to God it seems we do. Since God is always trying to get through the lines we might say God did, when He sent Jesus to earth. I guess it depends on exactly what call you are talking about.

Apologetic_Warrior · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
I'll take this as an admission you don't know either.

Funny, we both know what I posted is correct.

dad said:
For lurkers, here is what he is scurrying away from

4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

For lurkers, are either of us a prophet to the nations? Go back and read his mess about Christ crawling around with him in his mommy's tummy.

dad said:
I thought I said I did not know? If you claim to know something, out with it.

Already have, I do not take the agnostic approach to the Scriptures, nor reality outside of my mind.

dad said:
The issue is the big choice in life...accepting Jesus or not. Never mind the rest for now. If someone claims that people are destined regardless of choice for heaven or hell, then our choice to accept the gift of Christ is not conditioned or limited!

Christ himself say's no man can come except drawn by the Father, I'd call that a limitation.

John 6:44
John 14:6
Matthew 15:24

dad said:
It takes nothing away from God to realize that He created man to be in His likeness and have choice. It takes away from Him something fierce to claim He doomed people to hell with no choice in the matter.

Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (ESV)

It is not me or Calvinists you find fault with, it is God and His sovereign will. It requires quite the ferocity indeed to bring fault against God.

dad · Dec 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
The passage is the promise of the New Covenant. Read it again.

Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord GOD, “It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for My holy name, which you have profaned among the nations where you went. 23“I will vindicate the holiness of My great name which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst. Then the nations will know that I am the LORD,” declares the Lord GOD, “when I prove Myself holy among you in their sight. 24“For I will take you from the nations, gather you from all the lands and bring you into your own land. 25“Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. 26“Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27“I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. 28“You will live in the land that I gave to your forefathers; so you will be My people, and I will be your God.29“Moreover, I will save you from all your uncleanness; and I will call for the grain and multiply it, and I will not bring a famine on you. 30“I will multiply the fruit of the tree and the produce of the field, so that you will not receive again the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31“Then you will remember your evil ways and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves in your own sight for your iniquities and your abominations. 32“I am not doing this for your sake,” declares the Lord GOD, “let it be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel!”

He was talking there to Israel. Yes, Jesus is going to fix them too. That also will be a result of their crying out as a nation in the end.

dad · Dec 28, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
Funny, we both know what I posted is correct.

Actually I said I do not know about God knowing us before we are born. Apparently He does. Not sure about all the childish diaper nonsense. That is out in left field.

For lurkers, are either of us a prophet to the nations? Go back and read his mess about Christ crawling around with him in his mommy's tummy.

So how does this work, Jeremiah was known before the womb but not the average believer? John jumped for joy in the womb, but the average Christian is not a person till later?

Christ himself say's no man can come except drawn by the Father, I'd call that a limitation.
John 6:44

False. The Jews who rejected Jesus had made their choice, so they were not drawn to Him!

John 14:6

No man can be saved except by Jesus of course, by choosing Him to be specific. Not sure why you post verses that have nothing to do with your claims.

Matthew 15:24

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Again, what has this to do with anything you say!?

Romans 9:19

19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted F36 to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Again, what on earth anywhere in these verses do you think supports some view that we have no real choice?????

Hammster · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
I hope you are not saying people need to live perfect lives? Ha. No one has or will. Let's get real. He asks that we invite the Perfect One in! Then we can begin to be more like Him (although we will never attain this in our lifetimes!)

Should people be punished for their sin?

redleghunter · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
If we pray to God it seems we do. Since God is always trying to get through the lines we might say God did, when He sent Jesus to earth. I guess it depends on exactly what call you are talking about.

The NT is clear God calls us. The vehicle for the general call to all is the Gospel which has the Power of Salvation. Yet as Paul says in Romans 1:16 only to those who believe.

Your comments page after page denies a Holy Spirit calling to the Gospel.

Your presentation is as if someone contemplating while out fishing “let me give this Jesus message a try and see what happens.”

The NT does not support this nor the Old Testament. God called Abraham not Lot.

God chose Israel as His people and not the Canaanites.

God chose His holy prophets and set aside a remnant that did not bow the knee to Baal.

God chose Zachariah and Elizabeth to sire John the Baptist who in the womb was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus chose His disciples and said so in John 6.

And Jesus chose Paul to be His evangelist to the Gentiles while Paul was on a murderous rage to kill the followers of Christ.

You can keep at the “we choose first” meme but the Bible shows this not to be true.

dad · Dec 28, 2018

Hammster said:
Should people be punished for their sin?

Yes, if they have the choice to repent and escape punishment.

dad · Dec 28, 2018

redleghunter said:
The NT is clear God calls us. The vehicle for the general call to all is the Gospel which has the Power of Salvation. Yet as Paul says in Romans 1:16 only to those who believe.

So many are called few choose Him.

Your comments page after page denies a Holy Spirit calling to the Gospel.

False, what is denied is that God gave us no choice to receive or reject it.

Your presentation is as if someone contemplating while out fishing “let me give this Jesus message a try and see what happens.”

So?? Why not taste and see that the Lord is good!?

God chose Israel as His people and not the Canaanites.

Yes, and those that choose to disobey got clobbered.

God chose His holy prophets and set aside a remnant that did not bow the knee to Baal.

Great...so?

God chose Zachariah and Elizabeth to sire John the Baptist who in the womb was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Great. So? They chose to follow Him. If they had not have done that He would have used others.

Jesus chose His disciples and said so in John 6.

Of course He did. Judas choose to reject Jesus. The others choose to follow.

And Jesus chose Paul to be His evangelist to the Gentiles while Paul was on a murderous rage to kill the followers of Christ.

Nothing about Saul having prayed and sought truth before this happened changes that. In fact it fits the conversation they had.

You can keep at the “we choose first” meme but the Bible shows this not to be true.

Ridiculous. Just because He knows who will choose Him does not mean He forces them or made them imbeciles who could not choose etc. It is crystal clear that anyone that receives Jesus is saved and anyone that chooses otherwise is damned.

Hammster · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
Yes, if they have the choice to repent and escape punishment.

I’m speechless.

Hammster · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
So many are called few choose Him.

That’s not what scripture says. Maybe you should copy/paste scripture instead of going from memory.

redleghunter · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
So many are called few choose Him.

That was a real hoot there dad.

Here’s the actual quote:

Matthew 22: NASB

1Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying, 2“The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a wedding feast for his son. 3“And he sent out his slaves to call those who had been invited to the wedding feast, and they were unwilling to come. 4“Again he sent out other slaves saying, ‘Tell those who have been invited, “Behold, I have prepared my dinner; my oxen and my fattened livestock are all butchered and everything is ready; come to the wedding feast.”’ 5“But they paid no attention and went their way, one to his own farm, another to his business, 6and the rest seized his slaves and mistreated them and killed them. 7“But the king was enraged, and he sent his armies and destroyed those murderers and set their city on fire. 8“Then he said to his slaves, ‘The wedding is ready, but those who were invited were not worthy. 9‘Go therefore to the main highways, and as many as you find there, invite to the wedding feast.’ 10“Those slaves went out into the streets and gathered together all they found, both evil and good; and the wedding hall was filled with dinner guests.

11“But when the king came in to look over the dinner guests, he saw a man there who was not dressed in wedding clothes, 12and he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you come in here without wedding clothes?’ And the man was speechless. 13“Then the king said to the servants, ‘Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14“For many are called, but few are chosen.” (NASB)

It’s many are called few are chosen dad.

redleghunter · Dec 28, 2018

dad said:
False, what is denied is that God gave us no choice to receive or reject it.

That is your ridiculous presumption

dad said:
Of course He did. Judas choose to reject Jesus. The others choose to follow.

Judas was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures.
Explain that one.

dad said:
Nothing about Saul having prayed and sought truth before this happened changes that. In fact it fits the conversation they had.

You completely ignored the events up to Paul being smacked down to the ground.

Don’t know if you are trying to be cute here but you ignored twice the murderous rage Paul was on until Christ confronted him.

dad said:
Ridiculous. Just because He knows who will choose Him does not mean He forces them or made them imbeciles who could not choose etc. It is crystal clear that anyone that receives Jesus is saved and anyone that chooses otherwise is damned.

This once again is your own ridiculous presumption unsupported by Holy Scriptures.

dad · Dec 28, 2018

Hammster said:
That’s not what scripture says. Maybe you should copy/paste scripture instead of going from memory.

Here's one

Matt 23:37 - O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
So, if they would have heeded, they would have been OK. They were not doomed without choice.

Did God predestine the Fall?

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Thank You Jesus!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Pilgrim

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Psalm 144:1

Thank You Jesus!

Undefeated!

Undefeated!

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Thank You Jesus!

Thank You Jesus!

Undefeated!

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