Did God predestine the Fall?

dad said:

How would I know what went on late at night, or as he traveled on the roads, or as he saw the suffering he was helping cause, or as he was reading some verses...etc etc etc?

If you mean, 'did the bible record Saul screaming to Jesus for forgiveness the moments before he fell from the horse' no, of course not.

If you suggest that Saul never prayed, or that he was not desperate inside to know the truth about Jesus...well, good luck proving that.

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Saul was moving towards Damascus with the intent on persecution of the church. Jesus stopped him in his tracks. That’s the story as presented and even told by Paul three times in Acts.

redleghunter said:

“Will” is the operative word.

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Yes, that refers to man's will. That is otherwise known as choice!

redleghunter said:

Saul was moving towards Damascus with the intent on persecution of the church. Jesus stopped him in his tracks. That’s the story as presented and even told by Paul three times in Acts.

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Hey, a lot can happen in a week or two! If Saul was desperate with God as to whether he was doing the right thing, and had prayed about it, he would still be on the road. Saul did not receive an answer before he started on that journey so naturally he would still do his job as planned. The answer came on the road!

dad said:

Yes, that refers to man's will. That is otherwise known as choice!

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Indeed. What is exactly the will of fallen man?

dad said:

Hey, a lot can happen in a week or two! If Saul was desperate with God as to whether he was doing the right thing, and had prayed about it, he would still be on the road. Saul did not receive an answer before he started on that journey so naturally he would still do his job as planned. The answer came on the road!

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Can you treat the actual Scriptures?

Acts 9: NASB

1Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; 4and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” 5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, 6but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.” 7The men who traveled with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8Saul got up from the ground, and though his eyes were open, he could see nothing; and leading him by the hand, they brought him into Damascus.9And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

10Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and the Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” 11And the Lord said to him, “Get up and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for a man from Tarsus named Saul, for he is praying, 12and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him, so that he might regain his sight.”13But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he did to Your saints at Jerusalem; 14and here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.” 15But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel; 16for I will show him how much he must suffer for My name’s sake.”17So Ananias departed and entered the house, and after laying his hands on him said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road by which you were coming, has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18And immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he regained his sight, and he got up and was baptized; 19and he took food and was strengthened.

DZoolander said:

It seems to me, though, that a lot of the time when I engage in this topic with people, that those I'm discussing it with get hung up on the issue of God *causing* things to happen and it's that question that they want to talk about. Kind of like - it's the issue of "can God cause sin" that motivates their answer...and of course...the answer is "no"

But - in a sense - that's a separate issue from what I'm interested in. I understand how they're related - but I think the "can God cause sin" issue brings into it a lot of other topics that need to be hashed out - and then the other (more simple) question never really gets addressed.

TBH - I really don't have an answer for the "does God *cause* your actions" question. Philosophically, I have a lot of deist leanings...so I could go into what my PERSONAL view is on the topic...but that's just my personal opinion(s) which are just like everyone else's.

The question I'm interested in is a lot simpler.

If your action is known with absolute divine certainty beforehand (heck, even back to the beginning of time), is there actually choice when the moment arrives?

I think once that is answered, then it's a lot easier to address those other questions (or at least you have a more solid basis to address them).

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The traditional answer for those who support the idea of free will is that God does, indeed, know what we are going to do, but it is a matter of observing our choice, not a matter of enforcing our choice. And it is a fact that many events in our universe have a random component in their occurrence. Of course, this alone does not make them a matter of free will, either! If I decide to that heads means I take in a movie and tails mean I go to a concert, does my subsequent visit to the concert come because of my free choice? Does God's knowledge of the outcome of the coin toss make any difference about that?

There are random events in our brains, some of them from chaotic interactions of whole systems of nerve impulses, some of them from fundamental quantum true randomness beyond any physics constraints. We also have formed in our personalities something we call "character" . . . patterns of behavior leaning us in certain directions including moral decisions. From an outsider view, looking the whole person, the whole person is free to follow their own will. In that sense, we have free will. At the microscopic levels . . . any particular nerve impulse seems to be constrained by its inputs and its outputs are as they have grown to be by now . . . having had alternate opportunities to grow alternate ways in the past . . . its current growing of new connections and its current threshold of sensitivity to inputs is perhaps what we would call "random" within certain constraints. At that level we wouldn't see free will operating.

So as long as I see you as a whole and don't see your individual molecules, your individual cells, I say you have free will. As a summary judgement on you as a whole person.

Your single cells . . . maybe not. Doesn't matter.

God, of course, watches it all at all levels.

DZoolander said:

Thanks for the thoughtful answer. I can accept most of that. Sure. The scope of choices available may all be sinful - and none are pleasing to God.

But when people talk about free will, they're not really talking about whether or not the individual has the choice between "Righteous action" or "sinful action"...but rather that they do actually have choice in action regardless. The person could do A, or they could do B. They have free will to decide between the two.

The part that gives me problems when it comes to free will and God's omniscience (perfect foreknowledge of what the choice will be) is that if God knows it "will be A" - then it cannot by definition ever be B. The fact that it cannot be B is known ahead of time. So when the time comes, it cannot be A or B. It can only be A.

...and if it can only be A, how does that work with the idea that man has been blessed with free will? Only one possible choice does not exactly sound like freedom to choose.

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We have free will to go into a greasy spoon diner and say “I’ll have pork chops today.” What happens when the waiter says “sorry we are all out.”

dad said:

I don't know. I assume no.

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Don't know, assume no? You have no reason no justification for uncertainty about something so obvious as not choosing the time in history in which you would be born. You have nothing to support your pre-existence, except for pre-existing in the mind of God, that is in His thoughts, you had no being or existence in time as we count time.

dad said:

Good questions. In other words did we exist before we came to earth. I used to assume we did, and that I maybe helped pick my parents. Now, I am not sure. Any verses on that issue? We do know He was with us in the womb. Even before He formed us in the belly as Jeremiah says.

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Conceptual reality and materialized reality differ. I think you're a bit off kilter in reading Jeremiah. But I'll avoid the rabbit trail.

dad said:

I can't take that to necessarily mean we existed and watched when He created the universe though...can you?

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Uhh no, and how you came to that question from the questions I asked is far out man...like mormon doctrine out there.

dad said:

That is not the way God set it up. He did set it up that we need to choose to repent and accept Jesus though (or reject Him).

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Evidently you completely missed or choose to ignore the points. There's actually a couple of points to the particular question you responded to. 1.) no, you did not choose, 2.) you were completely dependent on your parents to change your diapers. Your response does not follow from the question.

dad said:

Maybe this is where common sense should enter in. If we had no real choice in life to accept God's spirit rather than the enemy, why would He need to die? It would all just be some big destined event in which we were zombie pawns. We are loved by God and made in His image and shall judge angels and rule with Him. That tells me we are special, and loved and not on some pre arranged cosmic roller coaster.

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So you know, if you do the homework, you'll realize that Calvinists do not deny people make choices. Most people, Calvinists and non, will agree our choices are a.) limited and b.) conditioned (by experience) and the role of c.) desires to the choices of the will.

What you fail to acknowledge is: a.) the immutability of God, and b.) the omniscience of God, and how these relate to choices, not just choices of beings other than God, but the free will choices of God, and the sovereignty of God's choices over the choices of other beings. Rather you hold the choices of other beings, creature choices in sovereignty over the choices of the sovereign Creator. Just the thought of predestination scares you, essentially it means God is sovereign and you are not!

redleghunter said:

We have free will to go into a greasy spoon diner and say “I’ll have pork chops today.” What happens when the waiter says “sorry we are all out.”

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Then you get to enjoy a more kosher meal, in line with TORAH .....

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Then you get to enjoy a more kosher meal, in line with TORAH .....

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Amen some good beef, steaming greens and hold the starches!

mark kennedy said:

Does God get a choice in this?

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By most of the comments here apparently not. Yet the New Testament speaks only of one will and purpose which will prevail. God’s.

Hammster said:

We have no righteousness in and of ourselves. Any righteousness we have is imputed to us by Christ.

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And not many can handle that truth.

dad said:

It seems to mean that a body of believers would exist, He chose that because He died to make it possible. Who that 'us' and when they exist are what matter. The 'us' is ANYONE at all on earth of all peoples, that come to Jesus (get saved, believe, etc). If you choose to repent, you become one of us! If your parents taught you right all your life, you basically always were one of us (at least since you decided at some age of reason)(of course even if you die before that age, if one parent is a believer that counts!)

Therefore the 'us' refers to people who choose Jesus.

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Dad can you do me a solid on the below and count the “I will” statements and indicate Who is saying them?
Ezekiel 36: NASB

22“Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord GOD: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came. 23And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD, declares the Lord GOD, when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes. 24I will take you from the nations and gather you from all the countries and bring you into your own land. 25I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you. 26And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules.a 28You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. 29And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses.And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you. 30I will make the fruit of the tree and the increase of the field abundant, that you may never again suffer the disgrace of famine among the nations. 31Then you will remember your evil ways, and your deeds that were not good, and you will loathe yourselves for your iniquities and your abominations. 32It is not for your sake that I will act, declares the Lord GOD; let that be known to you. Be ashamed and confounded for your ways, O house of Israel.

redleghunter said:

Indeed. What is exactly the will of fallen man?

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When it comes to a decision about Jesus, it is whatever they choose! It is what it is.

dad said:

When it comes to a decision about Jesus, it is whatever they choose! It is what it is.

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What makes us move to Jesus?

redleghunter said:

Can you treat the actual Scriptures?
.

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Sure I can treat em.

I notice Paul liked to pray in this chapter

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

I notice God spoke to a few people here with directions, do you think none of these people prayed or had sought the truth at some point in their lives also??

I see also that Jesus answered a question when He appeared as to who He was!

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


The big issue here and question was that Paul did not know what he was doing, and wanted to do the right thing, and know whether Jesus was really God. This seems to have answered it all! There is NO reason to assume that Saul had not been praying in his heart and seeking, despite his occupation and fanaticism.

Soon as Sail knew Jesus was really God, he instantly wanted to do the right thing. There was no overriding of free choice here in any way!

dad said:

Sure I can treat em.

I notice Paul liked to pray in this chapter

11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,

I notice God spoke to a few people here with directions, do you think none of these people prayed or had sought the truth at some point in their lives also??

I see also that Jesus answered a question when He appeared as to who He was!

4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.


The big issue here and question was that Paul did not know what he was doing, and wanted to do the right thing, and know whether Jesus was really God. This seems to have answered it all! There is NO reason to assume that Saul had not been praying in his heart and seeking, despite his occupation and fanaticism.

Soon as Sail knew Jesus was really God, he instantly wanted to do the right thing. There was no overriding of free choice here in any way!

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Back up the truck a bit.

Acts 9: NASB

1Now Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest, 2and asked for letters from him to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, both men and women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem

dad said:

The big issue here and question was that Paul did not know what he was doing, and wanted to do the right thing, and know whether Jesus was really God. This seems to have answered it all! There is NO reason to assume that Saul had not been praying in his heart and seeking, despite his occupation and fanaticism.

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Ok good. Who initiated this telephone call?