Approaches to Eschatology

Biblewriter said:

That is not what Jesus said. That is your interpretation of the meaning of what Jesus said. There is a radical difference between these two statements.

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"this generation" is only two words

hard to mis-interpret two words

Biblewriter said:

The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.

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Great Errors in Dispensational Eschatology: Pastor John Otis


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claninja said:

A generation does not last 2000 years. So how could the same generation that saw the fall of the temple in 70Ad, see the coming of the son of man, and the consummation of the age?



Agree, as history clearly shows that the temple was leveled by the roman's within Jesus' audience's generation, just as Jesus prophesied.


James, and inspired author, wrote that the coming of the Lord was at hand

James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Notice Matthew records that when ALL these things are seen by the 1st century generation, they would know that he is at the gate.

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

Notice James stated that the judge was standing (present tense) at the gate, thus James must have seen the signs given by Jesus.

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the gate.




The end of the ages occurred at the close of old covenant judiasm

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Paul believed he was living at the end of the ages

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

The author of Hebrews states Jesus did away with sin at the end of the age

Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

peter believed the end was at hand

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand;

John stated it was the last hour

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.



All 3 gospels record the questions asked by the disciples. Therefore, Mark 13:4 = Matthew 24:3 = Luke 21:7. And as shown above, the authors of the NT believed Jesus was coming within their own generation at the end of the age. Why? because Jesus told them so (Matthew 24:34).

mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

Matthew 24:3 “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:7 Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

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You've given me a lot to chew on... some of which I don't know exactly how to answer at this time. I'll have to do some further study on those verses.

Can we at least agree that this passage is difficult for both your view and mine, as it is plain that Jesus' 2nd coming did not happen at the time of Jerusalem's fall?

Marilyn C said:

Hi claninja,

The Revelation of Jesus is the Revelation of HIM. And we see that unfold very soon after that statement - re when the Lord revealed Himself in all His glory to John on the island of Patmos. Then we see four presentations of the Lord, revelations of the Lord throughout the book..

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What does revelation newly reveal, specifically about Jesus, that the gospels and epistles didn't already reveal?

The purpose of the book of revelation is to reveal events that were soon about to take place

Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.

Marilyn C said:

1. Christ the Head of the Body. (ch. 1 - 3)

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Christ was already revealed as head of the body, unless revelation was written prior to ephesians?

Ephesians 5:23 the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior

Marilyn C said:

2. Christ the Heir of the World. (Ch. 4 - 7)

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Christ was already revealed to be the heir of all things in the last days, unless revelation was written before Hebrews?
Hebrews 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.

Marilyn C said:

3. Christ the Mediator of the Covenant. (ch. 8 - 13)

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Christ was already revealed to be the mediator of a new covenant, unless revelation was written before Hebrews?
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.

Marilyn C said:

4. Christ the Judge and maker of all things new. (ch. 14 - 22)

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Jesus already revealed that he was the judge of all things prior to revelation
Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

It was already revealed that All things were created through Christ, unless revelation was written before colossians?
Colossians 1:15-16 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

food4thought said:

You've given me a lot to chew on... some of which I don't know exactly how to answer at this time. I'll have to do some further study on those verses.

Can we at least agree that this passage is difficult for both your view and mine, as it is plain that Jesus' 2nd coming did not happen at the time of Jerusalem's fall?

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Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)


Luk 21:5　 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,　

Luk 21:6　 "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down."　

(Mat 24:2　 And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."　)





Luk 21:7　 So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?"　

(Mat 24:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

(　Mar 13:3　 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,　

Mar 13:4　 "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?")　





Luk 21:8　 And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them.　

(Mat 24:5　 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many.　)



Luk 21:9　 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

(Mat 24:6　 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.)　



Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



Luk 21:10　 Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:11　 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.　

(Mat 24:7　 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places.　)



Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



Luk 21:13　 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony.　

Luk 21:14　 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer;　

Luk 21:15　 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.　

Luk 21:16　 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death.　

Luk 21:17　 And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:10　 And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another.　)



Luk 21:18　 But not a hair of your head shall be lost.　

Luk 21:19　 By your patience possess your souls.　

(Mat 24:13　 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.)　



Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



Luk 21:20　 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.　(See also Luke 19:41-44)

(Mat 24:15　 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),　



Luk 21:21　 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.　

(Mat 24:16　 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.)　



Luk 21:22　 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.　

Luk 21:23　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.　

(Mat 24:19　 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!　) (See Luke 23:27-31 where Jesus warned the women weeping for Him.)



Luk 21:24　 And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.　
(Almost all Bible scholars agree that the first part of the verse above is about 70 AD. At the end of the verse we find a period of time known as “the times of the Gentiles”. In the verses that follow we find the future Second Coming of Christ.)


The Coming of the Son of Man



Luk 21:25　 "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring;　

(Mat 24:29　 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.)　



Luk 21:26　 men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.　

Luk 21:27　 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.　

(Mat 24:30　 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.)　



Luk 21:28　 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near."　

(Mat 24:33　 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)

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From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


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BABerean2 said:

Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.

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Where else would they flee to?

food4thought said:

You've given me a lot to chew on... some of which I don't know exactly how to answer at this time. I'll have to do some further study on those verses.

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No problem at all. I appreciate an honest answer. This is definitely not an easy subject. One that we all need to thoroughly study.

food4thought said:

Can we at least agree that this passage is difficult for both your view and mine,

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absolutely. I agree with you food4thought. This is definitely not an easy subject.

food4thought said:

as it is plain that Jesus' 2nd coming did not happen at the time of Jerusalem's fall?

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I don't know if I exactly agree with you at this point based on 4 points of evidence

1.)God came down from heaven multiple times (2 Samuel, Isaiah 19, Micah 1, etc...) in the OT. Why would the coming of Jesus, who is God, be different in the NT?

2.) The holy spirit inspired apostles, that wrote epistles, believed they were living at then end of the age and that Jesus was coming in their life time (Acts 2, 1 Corinthians 10, 1 John 2, James 5, 1 Peter 4).

3.) Jesus explicitly stated "this generation will not pass away before ALL these things happen". This includes the appearing of the sign of the son of man in heaven.

4.) the temple was leveled in 70 AD. This is a historical fact.

Erik Nelson said:

"this generation" is only two words

hard to mis-interpret two words

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Good grief man..............THE GENERATION THAT ?????????????????? Sees all if these things come to pass, the last few of which are the Sun and Moon turning dark which happens during the 70th Week or at the 3.5 year Mark of the Tribulation period or at the 6th Seal into be more precise.

So THE GENERATION that sees ALL THESE SIGNS will be those living during the 70th Week.

The first sign is the Temple and City being destroyed, there are about 10-12 signs, THAT GENERATION that sees ALL THESE SIGNS, means they have to witness the Sun and Moon event that is the 6th Seal, of course THEY SEE all the other signs via History. No man/men lives 2000 years, so it is not saying someone will live 2000 years and see every sign, it is saying you must be alive when the LAST SIGNS come upon mankind, thus you UNDERSTAND THEM ALL !!

Come on man !!

keras said: ↑
Luke 21:29-36 Jesus told them a parable: Look at the fig tree, as soon as it buds you can tell that summer is near. In the same way when you see all this happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is near. Truly, I tell you the present generation will live to see it all. My words will never pass away.
Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REB


The present generation - or the generation present: the same thing. When they see Judah become a nation again, we will know the end times are upon us.

The fig tree – Israel is the vine, Judah is the fig tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10. The parable of the fig tree applies to the House of Judah, Matthew 21:43. Therefore when Judah starts to bud, that is: becomes a nation again, as they formed the State of Israel in May 1948, then within that generation, [a lifetime of 70-80 years] the end times events will commence. Ezekiel 12:25

The great Day – The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the multi prophesied judgement/punishment of the nations, an event that will come unexpectedly, sudden and shocking all those who have failed to understand the Lord's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:5-12, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17

That Day will come upon everyone – There is no ‘rapture’ at this time, all will go through this time of testing. Isaiah 24:1, Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8

Strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

The presence of the Son of Man – Jesus called Himself the ‘Son of Man’, when He was present on earth in a human body. This was necessary so as He could become our ‘kinsman Redeemer’. After the great Day of the Lord, when every faithful Christian has gathered in the holy Land, they will stand in His presence when the 144,000 are selected; Revelation 14:1. Then, later at His glorious Return, His Name will be ‘The Word of God’. Revelation 19:13

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Erik Nelson said: ↑
Yes. As Scripture clearly states. Whatever is the correct interpretation of parables such as that of the figure tree. They all applied to Jesus' immediate audience in the first century AD.

Whatever Jesus meant it already happened 2000 years ago. As the Gospels of Matthew and Luke say in agreement.

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keras said: ↑
So you are the arbiter of whether much of what Jesus said doesn't apply to us?
How do you draw the line for that?
No; I totally reject that concept; ALL of what Jesus said that was recorded, is for our instruction and has some application to us today.
Matthew 24:34 is an example, it is for the generation that sees the fig tree bud. That is Judah, represented by the fig tree, returning to the Land and prospering.
The generation alive when Jesus was there, were all killed or sold into slavery.

Preterism such as you believe in, simply leaves you in the dark about what God has planned for our future.

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Erik Nelson said: ↑
Matthew 24 verse 34. is? Very clear. Jesus told the people listening to him. In March or April of thirty ad. That their generation would live to witness all of the. Apocalyptic events, he had just described. According to Josephus. They did.

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Biblewriter said: ↑
That is not what Jesus said. That is your interpretation of the meaning of what Jesus said. There is a radical difference between these two statements.

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Erik Nelson said:

"this generation" is only two words
hard to mis-interpret two words

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You would think so.....

claninja said: ↑
A generation does not last 2000 years. So how could the same generation that saw the fall of the temple in 70Ad, see the coming of the son of man, and the consummation of the age?

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food4thought said:

You've given me a lot to chew on... some of which I don't know exactly how to answer at this time. I'll have to do some further study on those verses.

Can we at least agree that this passage is difficult for both your view and mine, as it is plain that Jesus' 2nd coming did not happen at the time of Jerusalem's fall?

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Hello f4t.
The phrase that Jesus uses "Son of Man" has always intrigued me and especially more so since it is used concerning His "parousia" in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

A lot of times I look up phrases in a concordance to find out where they are used in the Bible [use colons: "phrase"]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

"Son of Man"(NKJV)
"son of man" occurs 194 times in 190 verses in the NKJV.

In John 12, the Jews actually had to ask Jesus who or what is the "Son of Man".

Jhn 12:34
The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains to the age;
and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up'?
Who is this Son of Man?”

Here are the verses from Matt, Mar and Luk that use that term concerning the coming parousia in the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

The word "parousia" occurs in only 4 verses of the Gospels, all in Matt 24:

MATTHEW

Matthew 24:
3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying,
`Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/consummation/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'
27
for even as the lightning/star-flashes<796> comes-out from risings and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia<3952> of the Son of the Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia<3952> of the Son of the Man;
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia<3952> of the Son of the Man.

Mat 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[fn] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

LUKE

Luk 9:26
“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels.
Luk 11:30
“For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation.
[Matthew 12:41
`The Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up/<450> in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning her/it
that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.]

Luk 12:40
“Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
Luk 17
24
“For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
26
“And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
[Matthew 24:37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia<3952> of the Son of Man;]
30
“Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Luk 21
27
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
35
“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[fn] to escape all these things that will come to pass,
and to stand before the Son of Man.”

MARK

Mar 13:26
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”


Will continue on next post........


.

claninja said:

3.) Jesus explicitly stated "this generation will not pass away before ALL these things happen". This includes the appearing of the sign of the son of man in heaven.

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But not the gathering of His elect (Matthew 24:31). That, at the very least, is yet future.

Matthew 24
34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows,

in the mind of a religious first century Jew listening to the discourse. Nothing would have trumped final judgment. Verse 35. Clearly makes a reference. 2 final judgment at the end of earth time. Verse 36 refers back to "that day." Clearly, final judgment at the end of earth time. No way Jesus would have swept final judgment under a verbal rug. And gone back to talking about. coming. Wrath. Upon. Jerusalem.

Everything after verse 36 refers to the final physical second coming of Christ at the end of earth time at final judgement as described in revelation 20:9+

That is the 2000+++ year gap.

Jesus's words will never pass away. In Earth historical time. Jesus prophecies his words would stand. From April 30 AD. Until the end of Earth at final judgment.

Having made such a bold and sweeping statement. He then elaborates upon final judgment.

In 2, Peter 3. Saint Peter. Facing crucifixion. Made similarly sweeping statements designed to Shepherd and lead the church. From then. In approximately 65 AD. Until the end of earth time.

2 PETER 3 AND THE CONSUMMATION (1)

food4thought said:

But not the gathering of His elect (Matthew 24:31). That, at the very least, is yet future.

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The 144,000 Jewish Christians were the elect chosen Remnant. of national Israel. Drawn from throughout the diaspora across the Pagan Empire. And they were already gathered in revelation 7 And Revelation 14. prior to the destruction of Babylon symbolizing first century Jerusalem. In Revelation 18.

Revealing Times said:

Sees all if these things come to pass, the last few of which are the Sun and Moon turning dark which happens during the 70th Week or at the 3.5 year Mark of the Tribulation period or at the 6th Seal into be more precise.

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Jesus has Hosea 10:8 fulfilled at the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem

Luke 23:27-29 A great number of people followed Him, including women who kept mourning and wailing for Him. But Jesus turned to them and said, “Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children. Look, the days are coming when people will say, ‘Blessed are the barren women, the wombs that never bore, and breasts that never nursed.’ At that time
‘they will say to the mountains, “Fall on us!”
and to the hills, “Cover us!”’c

This corresponds with the 6th seal

Revelation 6:16 And they said to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide usc from the face of the One seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb. For the great day of Theird wrath has come, and who is able to withstand it?”

Revealing Times said:

So THE GENERATION that sees ALL THESE SIGNS will be those living during the 70th Week.

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The context is the destruction of the temple standing in front of Jesus.

mark 13:2 Do you see all these great buildings?” Jesus replied. “Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be toppled.”

"all these things" includes the destruction of the temple standing right in front of jesus.

Revealing Times said:

The first sign is the Temple and City being destroyed,

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incorrect. That is not the first sign. The disciples asked about the sign that the temple was about to be destroyed

Mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

The first sign is in the following verse: false prophets

Mark 13:5 Jesus began by telling them, “See to it that no one deceives you. Many will come in My name, claiming, ‘I am He,’ and will deceive many

Revealing Times said:

THAT GENERATION that sees ALL THESE SIGNS, means they have to witness the Sun and Moon event that is the 6th Seal,

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There are recorded Lunar and Solar eclipses that occurred from 66-70 AD. It was also recorded that there was a sword shaped star seen over Jerusalem during the Jewish-Roman war. Interesting enough there are also recordings of angelic warriors and chariots running through the sky during the jewish-roman war

Revealing Times said:

No man/men lives 2000 years, so it is not saying someone will live 2000 years and see every sgn,

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I agree. people don't live 2000 years in these fleshly bodies. Since the context is the fall of the 1st century temple, then we know "this generation" is simply the generation (roughly 40-70 years) that existed during the time of Christ that saw "all these things".

food4thought said:

But not the gathering of His elect (Matthew 24:31). That, at the very least, is yet future.

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Paul believed the resurrection was "about to be".

Acts 24:15 and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked

Thus I believe that when Christ came in 70 AD he defeated the last enemy death, who's power was the law

1 Corinthians 15:54-46 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come to pass: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”g “Where, O death, is your victory?
Where, O death, is your sting?”h The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the Law.

And by the destruction of the temple which was a picture of the first tabernacle, the way into heaven was disclosed through Christ. for He is the Way, the truth, and the life
Hebrews 9:8 By this arrangement the Holy Spirit was showing that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle is still standing (present tense).

I believe that anyone who dies in the Lord now is brought safely into the heavenly kingdom by the power of the resurrection
Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven telling me to write, “Blessed are the dead—those who die in the Lord from this moment on.”

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will rescue me from every evil action and bring me safely into His heavenly kingdom. To Him be the glory forever and ever. Amen.

2 Corinthians 5:4-5 while we are in this tent, we groan under our burdens, because we do not wish to be unclothed but clothed, so that our mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5And God has prepared us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a pledge of what is to come.

I believe that that man who dies in the Lord at 100 is considered young in the expanse of eternal life given to us by our Faithful Lord and saviour
Isaiah 65:20 for the young man shall die a hundred years old,

Mat 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”
Luk 21
27
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Mar 13:26
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”

LittleLambofJesus said:

You would think so.....
Hello f4t.
The phrase that Jesus uses "Son of Man" has always intrigued me and especially more so since it is used concerning His "parousia" in the Olivet Discourse and Revelation.

A lot of times I look up phrases in a concordance to find out where they are used in the Bible [use colons: "phrase"]

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

"Son of Man"(NKJV)
"son of man" occurs 194 times in 190 verses in the NKJV.

In John 12, the Jews actually had to ask Jesus who or what is the "Son of Man".

Jhn 12:34
The people answered Him, “We have heard from the law that the Christ remains to the age;
and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up'?
Who is this Son of Man?”

Here are the verses from Matt, Mar and Luk that use that term concerning the coming parousia in the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

The word "parousia" occurs in only 4 verses of the Gospels, all in Matt 24:

MATTHEW

Matthew 24:
3
He is yet sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples toward-came to Him according to own, saying,
`Tell us, when? shall these be and what? the sign of Thy ParousiaV <3952>,
and of the together-finish/consummation/sun-teleiaV <4930> of the Age?'
27
for even as the lightning/star-flashes<796> comes-out from risings and is appearing till of west, thus shall be the parousia<3952> of the Son of the Man;
37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia<3952> of the Son of the Man;
39
and not they know till came the flood and took/lifted all! away. Thus shall be also the parousia<3952> of the Son of the Man.

Mat 25:31
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[fn] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory.
Mat 26:64
Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

LUKE

Luk 9:26
“For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father's, and of the holy angels.
Luk 11:30
“For as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so also the Son of Man will be to this generation.
[Matthew 12:41
`The Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up/<450> in the judging with this generation and shall be condemning her/it
that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here.]

Luk 12:40
“Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”
Luk 17
24
“For as the lightning that flashes out of one part under heaven shines to the other part under heaven, so also the Son of Man will be in His day.
26
“And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:
[Matthew 24:37
For as even the days of the Noah thus shall be the parousia<3952> of the Son of Man;]
30
“Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.
Luk 21
27
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
35
“Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy[fn] to escape all these things that will come to pass,
and to stand before the Son of Man.”

MARK

Mar 13:26
“Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
Mar 14:62
Jesus said, “I am. And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven.”


Will continue on next post........
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food4thought said:

But not the gathering of His elect (Matthew 24:31). That, at the very least, is yet future.

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Erik Nelson said:

The 144,000 Jewish Christians were the elect chosen Remnant. of national Israel. Drawn from throughout the diaspora across the Pagan Empire. And they were already gathered in revelation 7 And Revelation 14. prior to the destruction of Babylon symbolizing first century Jerusalem. In Revelation 18.

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Excellent!

That is shown in Reve 11 and 14 concerning the Harvest of the 2 witnesses/wheat/sheep, IMHO.

So we have Matthew, Mark and Luke agreeing concerning the Son of Man coming with/in/upon the cloud/s in the 70ad Jerusalem/Temple discourse.
[btw, I have a thread on Luke 21:27 use of the singular "cloud" if others are interested]

Why does Luke 21:27 use the singular "cloud" instead of "clouds"?

Matthew has "upon the clouds"

Matthew 24:30
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of Man in the heaven; and then shall all the tribes of the earth smite the breast,
and they shall see the Son of Man coming upon<1909> the clouds of the heaven, with power and much glory;

Mark has "in clouds"

Mark 13:26
'And then they shall see the Son of Man coming in<1722> clouds with much power and glory,

Luke has "coming in a cloud"

Luke 21:27
‘And then they shall see the Son of Man, coming in<1722> a cloud, with power and much glory;

Reve 1 has "with the clouds":

Revelation 1:7
Behold! He is coming with<3326> the clouds and shall be seeing Him every eye even/also those who Him they pierce
and shall be grieving over Him all the tribes of the land. Yea, Amen.

Reve 14 shows "one like as a Son of Man upon a cloud" having a sickle in His hand getting ready to Harvest the land:

Revelation 14:
14 And I looked and behold! a white cloud
and upon the cloud like-as a Son of Man sitting having a golden crown upon His head and in His hand, a sharp sickle

Here He is first gathering the firstfruit elect witnesses after they have completed preaching the Gospel to the 1st century Jews/Gentiles and like Jesus in Acts 1, they ascend to the heaven in a cloud:

Revelation 11:12
And they hear a great Voice out of the Heaven saying to them "ascend ye here!
And they ascended into the heaven in the cloud and their enemies behold them.

Acts 1:
9 And these things having said — they beholding — He was taken up, and a cloud did receive him up from their sight;
10 and as they were looking stedfastly to the heaven in his going on, then, lo, two men stood by them in white apparel,
11 who also said, ‘Men, Galileans, why do ye stand gazing into the heaven?
this Jesus who was received up from you into the heaven, shall so come in what manner ye saw him going on to the heaven.’

The 2 verses concerning the High Priest and Jewish rulers"

Question about the High Priest seeing Jesus coming on clouds of heaven

Mat 26:64
Jesus saith to him, 'Thou sayest;
nevertheless I am saying to ye, hereafter ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming upon the clouds of the heaven.'

Mar 14:62
and Jesus said, 'I am;
and ye shall see the Son of Man sitting on the right hand of the power, and coming with the clouds, of the heaven.'

Heb 7:27
who does not need daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the people's,
for this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

Continue on next post........


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Biblewriter said:

Actually, we do indeed take both "near" and "soon" to mean exactly what God said. These are relative terms. And I answer, relative to what? You insist it is relative to mankind, and I answer it is relative to God.

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So when Jesus said this:

33 So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!

You insist He meant "near" as it is relative to God?

And though we are addressing "near", what of it's opposite?

If near can be thousands of years to God, how long is "a long time" to God?

In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a message was revealed to Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar. The message was true, but the appointed time was long; and he understood the message, and had understanding of the vision. Daniel 10:1

Is A million years a Long time to God?
2 million?
10 Million?

Biblewriter said:

Actually, we do indeed take both "near" and "soon" to mean exactly what God said. These are relative terms. And I answer, relative to what? You insist it is relative to mankind, and I answer it is relative to God. So we indeed take these words to literally mean what they actually said.

But an explicit statement of a period of time is not a relative term. To change an explicit statement of time, stated six times over in just six verses, into a relative term, is to claim it does not mean what it actually said.

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claninja said:

Right. Which is exactly my point. You don't take "near" or "soon" to mean "near" or "soon", even though that's what the words mean, but interpret it to mean something different: 2000+ years because God doesn't live in time based on another Bible verse.

How is this different then what the preterists, historicists, etc... do?


I could use the same argument. the 1000 year millennial reign doesn't really 1000 years, it means 1 day based on 2 peter 3. the 1000 years is based on God's time frame, not our time frame.

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Good post.......

That is a major reason why I vehemently oppose the Dispensationalist doctrine............


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claninja said:

What does revelation newly reveal, specifically about Jesus, that the gospels and epistles didn't already reveal?

The purpose of the book of revelation is to reveal events that were soon about to take place

Revelation 1:1-3 This is the revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants what must soon come to pass. He made it known by sending His angel to His servant John, who testifies to everything he saw. This is the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear and obey what is written in it, because the time is near.



Christ was already revealed as head of the body, unless revelation was written prior to ephesians?

Ephesians 5:23 the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, His body, of which He is the Savior



Christ was already revealed to be the heir of all things in the last days, unless revelation was written before Hebrews?
Hebrews 1:2 But in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, and through whom He made the universe.



Christ was already revealed to be the mediator of a new covenant, unless revelation was written before Hebrews?
Hebrews 9:15 Therefore Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, now that He has died to redeem them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.



Jesus already revealed that he was the judge of all things prior to revelation
Matthew 25:32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate the people one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will place the sheep on His right and the goats on His left.

It was already revealed that All things were created through Christ, unless revelation was written before colossians?
Colossians 1:15-16 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him.

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Hi Claninja,

Thank you for your good reply. Yes we are told that the Lord is the `Head, Heir, Mediator and Judge,` however.....in the `unveiling of Jesus` the apostle John actually has a vision of the Son of God in all His glory.
The Lord is seen `walking,` attending to the Body of Christ;

then being enthroned as the Heir in the third heaven amid all heaven`s acclaim;

further on the Lord is shown when He will be operating as the Mediator of the Covenant to Israel, and bringing fire down upon the rebellious;

finally John sees the vision of the Lord operating as the Judge of all the earth, bringing in the harvest & then coming to deliver Israel and deal with the rebellious nations.

We are also given the climax of summing all things up in Christ, by the vision of the New heavens and New Earth populated with those accepted in God`s Great Kingdom. All rule and authority comes under the Lordship of Christ.

All these visions are the fulfilment of what was foretold. We get to see what will be the actual workings out by the Lord as He brings every power and authority under Him.

regards, Marilyn.

Maria Billingsley said:

Which is the one eschatological view most in error unfortunately.

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Which is why I am a Covenant pre Mil person at the present time, as do not see the Rapture as distinct from the second coming event, but still do see a literal Kingdom Jesus will set up here at His returning!