Approaches to Eschatology

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Matthew 24:34 ?

We have already been over this. Yes, Dispensationalists believe this statement, just as it stands in the text of scripture.

food4thought · Dec 27, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
and what about

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened [70 AD]

Hi Erik. Welcome to the discussion! I think the resolution to that verse is found in it's immediate context.

The question is:

What generation is Jesus referring to?

One possible answer is found in Matthew 24:32-33:

Matthew 24:32-34 NASB "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; (33) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The generation that sees "all these things" begin to take place may be the one that will not pass away until "all these things" comes to pass. This could be the generation that Jesus is speaking of.

Given the fact that Jesus' 2nd coming is mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31, the events around 70 AD cannot fulfill "all these things". BUT, I will concede that the fall of Jerusalem to Titus is prophesied in Matthew 24. Jesus was asked three questions:

1) When will these things (the destruction of the Temple) take place?

This is obviously 70 AD.

2) And what will be the signs of your coming?

This is obviously His 2nd coming.

3) And what will be the signs of the end of the age?

Again, His 2nd coming.

So we see that the prophecy answers 3 questions, 2 of which are interrelated, and Jesus is not clear on distinguishing which question He is answering at any given point.

Hope this helps;
Michael

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

keras said:
Strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

It is an escape from Judea which would protect the 1st century Jewish Christians from the wrath by the Roman army.............
Do you view Daniel 12 and Luke 21 as the same event?

4422 malat a primitive root;
(by implication) to escape (as if by slipperiness); causatively, to release or rescue; specifically, to bring forth young, emit sparks:--deliver (self), escape......

Daniel 12:1
‘And at that time stand up doth Michael, the great head, who is standing up for the sons of thy people, and there hath been a time of distress, such as hath not been since there hath been a nation till that time, and at that time do thy people escape<4422>, every one who is found written in the book.

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may perceiving/seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies, then be knowing that is nigh the desolating of Her...[Revelation 18:19]
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land/Judea and wrath upon this people.

36 “Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape<1628> from all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

1628. ekpheugo from 1537 and 5343;
to flee out:--escape, flee.

.

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

keras said:
Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REB
/snip/
strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

The Greek word translated "escape" in Luke 21:36 is "ekphugein." This word most certaainly does not even imply either strength or passing through. It literally means "to be out fleeing." it is a form of "epheugo," which literally means "escape" or "flee."

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

keras said:
All of the Bible Prophets were proved to be Prophets, some way or another.
Therefore we can be sure that what they have told us WILL happen and just because it has taken 1000's of years and still counting, that is no reason to comment as you have.
In fact your comment is the height of foolishness and means that you simply disbelieve God's Word.

BTW, I like many others here just scroll quickly over all your lengthy and wasted effort posts. We are all tired of your silly helivan and your Revelation 14:6 quote is still future anyway!

The pre 70ad Jews were futurists, the post 70ad Jews would be preterists..........
One example would be Israel's PM saying Ezekiel 37 was fulfilled during the Holocaust of WW2. Fascinating!

Prophecies of Ezekiel 37

The Gryphon said:
In a stunning and remarkable moment, Netanyahu also declared to the people of Europe and the world that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled. The Holocaust, he said, represented the "dry bones" and "graves" of the Jewish people, and out of that horror the State of Israel was resurrected, just as the Lord said would happen through the Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel. Rarely has any world leader given a major address on an international stage declaring End Times prophecies from the Bible have come true. But that is exactly what Netanyahu did. - Joel Rosenberg
NTEB: God's Prophetical Promise To Return The Jews To Israel

I though this was relevant for Christians to read as a part of fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy.

That still leaves this prophecy to be fulfilled for Israel and the Jews:

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA"

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’

.

claninja · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
No, all of these absolutely require their adherents to assume that most of Bible prophecy simply does not mean what it explicitly says.

So because there some aspects of the Bible that I disagree with your interpretation of, I should assume you don't believe that part of the Bible?

What a terrible, subjective argument that would be if I actually believed that.

Biblewriter said:
There can be no escape from this indisputable fact.

you haven't stated a fact

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

keras said: ↑
Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REB
/snip/
strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection.

Biblewriter said:
The Greek word translated "escape" in Luke 21:36 is "ekphugein." This word most certaainly does not even imply either strength or passing through. It literally means "to be out fleeing." it is a form of "epheugo," which literally means "escape" or "flee."

Thanks. I generally try to look at most greek words in a verse to see how they are used in other verses....

Luk 3:7
Then he said to the multitudes that came out to be baptized by him, “Brood of vipers!
Who warned you to flee<5343>pheugō> from the being about wrath to come?
Mat 23:33
“Serpents, brood of vipers!
How can you flee<5343>pheugō> from the judging of the gehenna?
Mat 24:16
“then let those who are in Judea flee<5343>pheugō> to the mountains.
Mar 13:14
“then let those who are in Judea flee<5343>pheugō> to the mountains.
Luk 21:21
“Then let those who are in Judea flee<5343>pheugō> to the mountains,

Rev 16:20
Then every island fled away<5343>pheugō>, and the mountains were not found.
Rev 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away<5343>pheugō>.
And there was found no place for them.

.

claninja · Dec 27, 2018

food4thought said:
The generation that sees "all these things" begin to take place may be the one that will not pass away until "all these things" comes to pass. This could be the generation that Jesus is speaking of.

A generation does not last 2000 years. So how could the same generation that saw the fall of the temple in 70Ad, see the coming of the son of man, and the consummation of the age?

food4thought said:
1) When will these things (the destruction of the Temple) take place? This is obviously 70 AD.

Agree, as history clearly shows that the temple was leveled by the roman's within Jesus' audience's generation, just as Jesus prophesied.

food4thought said:
2) And what will be the signs of your coming?
This is obviously His 2nd coming.

James, and inspired author, wrote that the coming of the Lord was at hand

James 5:8 You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Notice Matthew records that when ALL these things are seen by the 1st century generation, they would know that he is at the gate.

Matthew 24:33 So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

Notice James stated that the judge was standing (present tense) at the gate, thus James must have seen the signs given by Jesus.

James 5:9 Do not grumble against one another, brothers, so that you may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing at the gate.

food4thought said:
3) And what will be the signs of the end of the age? Again, His 2nd coming.

The end of the ages occurred at the close of old covenant judiasm

Matthew 24:3 As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

Paul believed he was living at the end of the ages

1 Corinthians 10:11 Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come

The author of Hebrews states Jesus did away with sin at the end of the age

Hebrews 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

peter believed the end was at hand

1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is at hand;

John stated it was the last hour

1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour; and just as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. This is how we know it is the last hour.

food4thought said:
So we see that the prophecy answers 3 questions, 2 of which are interrelated, and Jesus is not clear on distinguishing which question He is answering at any given point.

All 3 gospels record the questions asked by the disciples. Therefore, Mark 13:4 = Matthew 24:3 = Luke 21:7. And as shown above, the authors of the NT believed Jesus was coming within their own generation at the end of the age. Why? because Jesus told them so (Matthew 24:34).

mark 13:4 Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to be fulfilled?”

Matthew 24:3 “Tell us,” they said, “when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming and of the end of the age?”

Luke 21:7 Teacher,” they asked, “when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are about to take place?”

BABerean2 · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
We are well aware of all of these scriptures, and we ignore none of them. But we totally reject the interpretation that you place upon them.

Why then have you failed to explain your interpretation of the passages, instead of ignoring them?

Does the word "now" in Dispensational Theology mean something different?

.

Tutorman · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
This is basically saying that roughly a fourth to a fifth of everything God has bothered to tell us is not important.

No, it is basically saying worrying about all he stuff is silly. He will be back when He is ready until then we should live a Christian

parousia70 · Dec 27, 2018

food4thought said:
What generation is Jesus referring to?

One possible answer is found in Matthew 24:32-33:

Matthew 24:32-34 NASB "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; (33) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

claninja touched on this but it bears repeating.

James, writing under the infallible inspiration of the Holy spirit in the late 50s AD recognized Jesus coming was, at that time, "near, and at the door". James 5:8-9

Jesus explicitly said His coming would ONLY be "near and at the door" AFTER certain signs were seen.

Now, either James saw the signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24, and was correct to profess that the coming of the lord was at that time "near and at the door" or James was wrong and was teaching AGAINST what Jesus taught.

Which do you think it was?

keras · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
The Greek word translated "escape" in Luke 21:36 is "ekphugein." This word most certaainly does not even imply either strength or passing through. It literally means "to be out fleeing." it is a form of "epheugo," which literally means "escape" or "flee."

Unfortunately your, and all the 'rapturists here, interpretation of Luke 21:36 as an 'escape' away from, even to heaven, cannot be correct, as the just previous verse plainly states this disaster will come upon everyone the whole world over. My REBible translates it correctly for that reason.
As well as the dozens of prophesies that tell us the Lord will protect His own through that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Isaiah 41:13, 1 Corinthians 10:13, +

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

parousia70 said:
claninja touched on this but it bears repeating.

James, writing under the infallible inspiration of the Holy spirit in the late 50s AD recognized Jesus coming was, at that time, "near, and at the door". James 5:8-9

Jesus explicitly said His coming would ONLY be "near and at the door" AFTER certain signs were seen.

Now, either James saw the signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24, and was correct to profess that the coming of the lord was at that time "near and at the door" or James was wrong and was teaching AGAINST what Jesus taught.

Which do you think it was?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

parousia70 said:
claninja touched on this but it bears repeating.

James, writing under the infallible inspiration of the Holy spirit in the late 50s AD recognized Jesus coming was, at that time, "near, and at the door". James 5:8-9

Jesus explicitly said His coming would ONLY be "near and at the door" AFTER certain signs were seen.

Now, either James saw the signs Jesus spoke of in Matt 24, and was correct to profess that the coming of the lord was at that time "near and at the door" or James was wrong and was teaching AGAINST what Jesus taught.

Which do you think it was?

Luke, James and Peter writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit

Luke 21:
20 - And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies,
then know that the desolation thereof is nigh<1448>.
28 - And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.<1448>

James 5:8
be patient! ye also; establish! your hearts,
because the parousia of the Lord hath drawn nigh<1448>;
.
1 Peter 4:7
And of all things the end hath come nigh<1448>;
be sober-minded, then, and watch unto the prayers,

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24:
32 - Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh<1451>
33 - So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near<1451> even at the doors.
Mark 13:
28 - Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near<1451>
29 - So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh<1451> even at the doors.
Luke 21:
30 - When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh <1451>.
31 - So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh<1451>

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading, and the ones hearing, the Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been Written,
for the Time is nigh<1451>.

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of the Scroll, this.
For the Time Is-nigh<1451>

.

Erik Nelson · Dec 27, 2018

keras said:
Luke 21:29-36 Jesus told them a parable: Look at the fig tree, as soon as it buds you can tell that summer is near. In the same way when you see all this happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is near. Truly, I tell you the present generation will live to see it all. My words will never pass away.
Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REB

The present generation - or the generation present: the same thing. When they see Judah become a nation again, we will know the end times are upon us.

The fig tree – Israel is the vine, Judah is the fig tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10. The parable of the fig tree applies to the House of Judah, Matthew 21:43. Therefore when Judah starts to bud, that is: becomes a nation again, as they formed the State of Israel in May 1948, then within that generation, [a lifetime of 70-80 years] the end times events will commence. Ezekiel 12:25

The great Day – The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the multi prophesied judgement/punishment of the nations, an event that will come unexpectedly, sudden and shocking all those who have failed to understand the Lord's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:5-12, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17

That Day will come upon everyone – There is no ‘rapture’ at this time, all will go through this time of testing. Isaiah 24:1, Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8

Strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

The presence of the Son of Man – Jesus called Himself the ‘Son of Man’, when He was present on earth in a human body. This was necessary so as He could become our ‘kinsman Redeemer’. After the great Day of the Lord, when every faithful Christian has gathered in the holy Land, they will stand in His presence when the 144,000 are selected; Revelation 14:1. Then, later at His glorious Return, His Name will be ‘The Word of God’. Revelation 19:13

Yes. As Scripture clearly states. Whatever is the correct interpretation of parables such as that of the figure tree. They all applied to Jesus' immediate audience in the first century AD.

Whatever Jesus meant it already happened 2000 years ago. As the Gospels of Matthew and Luke say in agreement.

Erik Nelson · Dec 27, 2018

food4thought said:
Matthew 24:32-34 NASB "Now learn the parable from the fig tree: when its branch has already become tender and puts forth its leaves, you know that summer is near; (33) so, you too, when you see all these things, recognize that He is near, right at the door. (34) "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

The generation that sees "all these things" begin to take place may be the one that will not pass away until "all these things" comes to pass. This could be the generation that Jesus is speaking of.

Given the fact that Jesus' 2nd coming is mentioned in Matthew 24:30-31, the events around 70 AD cannot fulfill "all these things". BUT, I will concede that the fall of Jerusalem to Titus is prophesied in Matthew 24. Jesus was asked three questions:

1) When will these things (the destruction of the Temple) take place?

This is obviously 70 AD.

2) And what will be the signs of your coming?

This is obviously His 2nd coming.

3) And what will be the signs of the end of the age?

Again, His 2nd coming.

So we see that the prophecy answers 3 questions, 2 of which are interrelated, and Jesus is not clear on distinguishing which question He is answering at any given point.

Hope this helps;
Michael

The Bible was written for all generations. But only to. Jesus' own generation in the first century AD.

Marilyn C · Dec 27, 2018

claninja said:
I don't think this is necessarily true. Dispensationalists, at least those I have encountered, don't believe the prophecies of revelation were near or soon to take place. They place them instead 2000+ years later, which would be the opposite of "for the time is near".

Revelation 1:1-3 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servantsa the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.

Hi claninja,

The Revelation of Jesus is the Revelation of HIM. And we see that unfold very soon after that statement - re when the Lord revealed Himself in all His glory to John on the island of Patmos. Then we see four presentations of the Lord, revelations of the Lord throughout the book.

1. Christ the Head of the Body. (ch. 1 - 3)
2. Christ the Heir of the World. (Ch. 4 - 7)
3. Christ the Mediator of the Covenant. (ch. 8 - 13)
4. Christ the Judge and maker of all things new. (ch. 14 - 22)

All revelation OF THE GLORIFIED LORD JESUS CHRIST.

regards, Marilyn.

Marilyn C · Dec 27, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
The Bible was written for all generations. But only to. Jesus' own generation in the first century AD.

Hi Erik,

The Central theme of God`s word is Christ Himself and when He ascended He sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Body of Christ into all Truth. And that truth concerns our generation as well. God`s purposes span the centuries and include the centuries.

regards, Marilyn.

keras · Dec 28, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Yes. As Scripture clearly states. Whatever is the correct interpretation of parables such as that of the figure tree. They all applied to Jesus' immediate audience in the first century AD.

Whatever Jesus meant it already happened 2000 years ago. As the Gospels of Matthew and Luke say in agreement.

So you are the arbiter of whether much of what Jesus said doesn't apply to us?
How do you draw the line for that?
No; I totally reject that concept; ALL of what Jesus said that was recorded, is for our instruction and has some application to us today.
Matthew 24:34 is an example, it is for the generation that sees the fig tree bud. That is Judah, represented by the fig tree, returning to the Land and prospering.
The generation alive when Jesus was there, were all killed or sold into slavery.

Preterism such as you believe in, simply leaves you in the dark about what God has planned for our future.

Erik Nelson · Dec 28, 2018

keras said:
So you are the arbiter of whether much of what Jesus said doesn't apply to us?
How do you draw the line for that?
No; I totally reject that concept; ALL of what Jesus said that was recorded, is for our instruction and has some application to us today.
Matthew 24:34 is an example, it is for the generation that sees the fig tree bud. That is Judah, represented by the fig tree, returning to the Land and prospering.
The generation alive when Jesus was there, were all killed or sold into slavery.

Preterism such as you believe in, simply leaves you in the dark about what God has planned for our future.

The Bible was written for all time. The New Testament. Was given to Early first century Christians.

In other words, the Bible was written for us, but not to us. We are reading somebody else's mail so to speak.

Matthew 24 verse 34. is? Very clear. Jesus told the people listening to him. In March or April of thirty ad. That their generation would live to witness all of the. Apocalyptic events, he had just described. According to Josephus. They did.

Approaches to Eschatology

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