Approaches to Eschatology

food4thought · Dec 26, 2018

The details of Isaiah 13 tell a different story than what happened during the relatively bloodless fall of Babylon to the Medes and Persians... observe:

Isaiah 13:12 NIV I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.

That did not happen, even in Babylon, when it fell to Cyrus. Relatively few people were actually killed at that time.

Isaiah 13:19 NIV Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms, the pride and glory of the Babylonians, will be overthrown by God like Sodom and Gomorrah.

Neither did that. Sodom and Gomorrah were completely wiped off the face of the earth, while Babylon continued to prosper for many centuries after Cyrus conquered it.

Isaiah 13:20-22 NIV She will never be inhabited or lived in through all generations; there no nomads will pitch their tents, there no shepherds will rest their flocks. (21) But desert creatures will lie there, jackals will fill her houses; there the owls will dwell, and there the wild goats will leap about. (22) Hyenas will inhabit her strongholds, jackals her luxurious palaces. Her time is at hand, and her days will not be prolonged.

Nor did any of that, at least not for many centuries.

The reality is that Isaiah is using the fall of Babylon to Cyrus as a jumping point to describe the final fall of Babylon that is further described in Jeremiah, Revelation, and elsewhere. I hope you can see that...

keras · Dec 26, 2018

parousia70 said:
AFTER Davids battlefield defeat of Saul, notice the things David says took place:
(2 Samuel 22:8-16)

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

God sure was a huffin and a puffin right there wasn't He?

Bowing the heavens, starting fires with his nostrils, shooting arrows, actually seen riding on Clouds and Cherubs, shaking the heavens and laying the foundation of the entire earth bare.

Is it your position that these things LITERALLY happened during that Battle, exactly as David said they did?

If not, was David Lying?

No; David was Prophesying. It is repeated in Psalms 18:7-15
Those cosmic and earthly disasters did not happen in ancient times, there is no record written or archeological of such things then or at any time.
But they will happen, as we are told by 2 Peter 3:7, Romans 1:18; Hebrews 10:27, 1 Corinthians 3:13 and Revelation 6:12-17

You will throw all your preterist notions out of the window, when this great world changer comes!

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

parousia70 said:
Yet you said 1 day and 1000 years are relative, did you not?

Can you show me where the Bible teaches you to interpret:
Hebrews 10:37
For yet a very little while,
And He who is coming will come and will not tarry.

from what it actually says into:
"For in yet a few thousand years, He who is coming will finally come after a long, long delay"

The Literal translation is even more precise:

( 10:37 YLT)for yet a very very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;

Very, Very little while.

What do you say is is the point of the author emphasizing "very VERY little while", if, as you assert, such language is meaningless and not applicable to the 1st century Hebrew people who were reading this message delivered TO THEM, FOR THEM??

What other parts of Scripture do you assert are meaningless, unapplicable &/or undiscernable to the original receivers?

Doctrines of Grace?
Baptism?

Since it appears you believe so much of the NT (over 100 verses) was worthless, meaningless, undiscernable, and not at all applicable to the original receivers, I can't help but think you hardly believe any of it was for them?

How did they know which parts were for them and which weren't?

How did the 1st century Hebrews know that "for yet a very very little while, He who is coming will come, and will not tarry;" was not true for them and actually meant the opposite of what it says??

Is our God in the Habit of telling His people the exact opposite of what He really wishes to convey, hoping they will understand that what He is saying is exactly opposite of what He means??

How is that you have built an entire Doctrine that is dependant on God meaning the exact opposite of what over 100 NT verses actually say?

No, I did not say that 1 day and 1000 years are relative. Go back and read my posts. you will find no such statement.

But I have actually not built any doctrine whatsoever. What I have done is to simply stress what God has explicitly stated will come to pass.

You have built a large system of interpretation based on one possible literal interpretation of the meanings of these words, while completely ignoring another possible completely literal interpretation of these same words.

But my interpretation of these words allows me to accept many other passages of scripture as meaning exactly what they say, while your interpretation of these same words absolutely requires you to insist that many other passages of scripture simply do not mean what they so explicitly state.

BABerean2 · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
I have actually not built any doctrine whatsoever. What I have done is to simply stress what God has explicitly stated will come to pass.

Your doctrine is built upon an ignorance of the New Covenant.

We are still waiting on you to show us what you have written in your books about the New Covenant...

Still waiting...

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

Tutorman said:
Christ will come back. Having this or that ism is folly, we should always live as if this is our last moment and live the Christian life; let God figure out when He will come again.

This is basically saying that roughly a fourth to a fifth of everything God has bothered to tell us is not important.

I agree that "isms" are not important. But "isms" are simply shorthand for groups of beliefs that typically come together, in a package, as it were. As the various eschatological "isms" are so radically different, no more than one of them can even possibly be correct.

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Your doctrine is built upon an ignorance of the New Covenant.

We are still waiting on you to show us what you have written in your books about the New Covenant...

.

No, my doctrine is based on simply believing everything God said, not just part of it. I am not aware of even one system of eschatological interpretation, other than Dispensationalism, that does not absolutely require its adherents to assume that most of the prophecies in the Bible simply do not mean what they so very explicitly say.

claninja · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
No, I did not say that 1 day and 1000 years are relative. Go back and read my posts. you will find no such statement.

In post #48 you stated the following in response to Parousa talking about 1 day and 1000 years. You may have not meant it toward 1 day and 1000 years but you didn't really specify:

Biblewriter said:
ALL of these use relative terms,

Near and soon are relative terms, yes. But they are not so relative as to make them mean the opposite of what they actually mean.

Biblewriter said:
But my interpretation of these words allows me to accept many other passages of scripture as meaning exactly what they say,

This is a subjective statement, because it's based on YOUR interpretation of scripture. Preteristism, historicism, idealism, etc... can all say the same thing: "this is what scripture exactly means".

As you have shown throughout this thread, you yourself don't take everything literally but use other scripture to interpret scripture based on your overarching believe system: dispensationlism. Which is what all other schools of interpretation do as well.

Biblewriter said:
What I have done is to simply stress what God has explicitly stated will come to pass.

So does every other belief system. I'm not aware of any Christian who doesn't believe God's promises will not come to pass.

Biblewriter said:
You have built a large system of interpretation based on one possible literal interpretation of the meanings of these words, while completely ignoring another possible completely literal interpretation of these same words.

and this is different from any other school of interpretation how?

Erik Nelson · Dec 27, 2018

jgr said:
Good.

Then dispensationalism actually believes what this actually says.

Genesis 12
7 And the Lord appeared unto Abram, and said, Unto thy seed will I give this land: and there builded he an altar unto the Lord, who appeared unto him.

Galatians 3
16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

and what about

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened [70 AD]

Erik Nelson · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
No, my doctrine is based on simply believing everything God said, not just part of it. I am not aware of even one system of eschatological interpretation, other than Dispensationalism, that does not absolutely require its adherents to assume that most of the prophecies in the Bible simply do not mean what they so very explicitly say.

Matthew 24:34 ?

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Your doctrine is built upon an ignorance of the New Covenant.

We are still waiting on you to show us what you have written in your books about the New Covenant...

Still waiting...

The Jews of today should be understanding the 2 Covenants...........

New Covenant of Jeremiah 31 Hebrew 8

Jeremiah 31:31
'Behold! days are coming', a declaration of Yahweh 'and I-Cut/Make<3772 karath> with the house of Yisra'el and with the house of Y@huwdah New Covenant
Hebrews 8:8
"For faulting to-them He is saying 'behold! days are coming' is saying Lord
'and I shall-be-consummating<4931> upon the house of Israel and upon the house of Judah a New Covenant'
4931. sunteleo soon-tel-eh'-o from 4862 and 5055;
to complete entirely; generally, to execute (literally or figuratively):--end, finish, fulfil, make.

Did Christ come to establish a New or Renewed Covenant with Israel?

Matthew 26:28
"For this is the blood of Me, of the New Covenant, the about many being poured out into a remission of sins"

Galatians 4
24 which things is an allegory.
For these are the two Covenants, one indeed from mount Sinai into servitude generating, who-any is Hagar.
25 For the Hagar mount Sinai is in Arabia is together-elemental yet to now Jerusalem slaving/serving the with the offpsprings of Her.

The book of Hebrews is actually written to the converted Christian Hebrew Jews coming to Christ [Coincidentally, Saul/Paul was a Hebrew of Hebrews: Philippians 3:5]

Hebrew 12
18 For ye not have toward to the Mountain[OC] touched and scorched with fire, and to blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 and a sound of a trumpet, and a Voice of sayings, which those having heard did entreat that a Word might not be added to them, [Deuteronomy 4:11]
22 But, ye came to Mount Zion[NC], and to a city of the living God,
to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of messengers,.....

Revelation 8:8
And the second messenger trumpets,
and as it were a great Mountain[OC] with fire burning was cast into the Sea, and the third of the sea became blood, [Micah 7:19 Hebrews 12:18]
Revelation 14:1
And I saw and behold! a Lambkin having stood upon the mount Zion, and with him an hundred forty-four thousands,

That is the fulfillment of Micah 7:19 upon the 1st century Jews in 70ad upon the destruction of the Temple and City........

Micah 7:19
He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities;
and Thou wilt cast all their Sins into the depths of the Sea.[Revelation 8:8]

Matthew 21:21
Yet Jesus answering said to them, "amen I am saying to ye,
if ever ye may be having Faith, and no ye may be doubting, not only the of the fig-tree<4808> ye shall be doing,
but even-ever to this Mountain ye may saying,
'Be being lifted-up!<142> and be being cast! into the Sea',
it shall be becoming"
[Revelation 8:8]

.

Sara Shaffer · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

Of coarse your belief is the correct one.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

keras said:
You will throw all your preterist notions out of the window, when this great world changer comes!

And when it doesn't come, you will throw all your futurist notions out the window...........

Jdg 5:28
“The mother of Sisera looked through the window,
And cried out through the lattice,
‘Why is his chariot so long in coming?
Why tarries the clatter of his chariots?'

This is being said to the 1st century converted Jewish Christians BEFORE 70ad:

What is the "Parousia" in the New Testament

2 Peter 3:4 -
and saying, 'Where is the promise of His parousiaV <3952>?
for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;'
James 5
7 Be patient, then, brethren, till the parousiaV <3952> of the Lord;
behold the husbandman doth expect the precious fruit of the earth, being patient for it, till he may receive rain -- early and latter;
8 be ye patient! also stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared<1448>

Revelation 22:10
And he is saying to me "no thou should be sealing the Words of the Prophecy of this Scroll
For the Time Is-nigh<1451>

Luke 19
43 That shall be arriving days upon Thee, and Thy Enemies shall be casting up a siege-work/rampart to Thee,
and shall be encompassing<4033> Thee, and pressing Thee every which place. 44 And shall be leveling Thee..........

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah !..............

.

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

Sara Shaffer said:
Of coarse your belief is the correct one.

Whether or not I believe it has zero bearing on the question. The point I was making is that there are two approaches to interpreting Bible prophecy that are radically different. One approach, which is applied by all approaches except one, is to assume that many of the Bible's explicit statements about future events simply do not mean what they so plainly say. There is only one approach to interpreting Bible prophecy that assumes that all of these statements actually mean what they so very explicitly say.

Many do not like "labels," and resist putting any label of any kind on their beliefs. but the label that has been (rightly or wrongly) pasted on this approach to interpreting Bible prophecy is Dispensationalism. And that is the only eschatological "ism" that is based on simply believing everything the Bible says.

BABerean2 · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
No, my doctrine is based on simply believing everything God said, not just part of it. I am not aware of even one system of eschatological interpretation, other than Dispensationalism, that does not absolutely require its adherents to assume that most of the prophecies in the Bible simply do not mean what they so very explicitly say.

Your doctrine is a doctrine of ignorance.
You ignore the passages below, which kill your doctrine.

Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28, 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 10:16-18, Hebrews 12:18-24

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Your doctrine is a doctrine of ignorance.
You ignore the passages below, which kill your doctrine.

Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28, 2 Corinthians 3:6-8, Hebrews 8:6-13, Hebrews 10:16-18, Hebrews 12:18-24

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

We are well aware of all of these scriptures, and we ignore none of them. But we totally reject the interpretation that you place upon them.

claninja · Dec 27, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Whether or not I believe is has zero bearing on the question. The point I was making is that there are two approaches to interpreting Bible prophecy that are radically different. One approach, which is applied by all approaches except one, is to assume that many of the Bible's explicit statements about future events simply do not mean what they so plainly say. There is only one approach to interpreting Bible prophecy that assumes that all of these statements actually mean what they so very explicitly say.

some scripture is interpreted literally (Jesus riding on a colt, they looked on him who they pierced, none of his bones were broken). But not all scripture is. Here are several examples of those in the NT interpreting OT in a non literal fashion.

Notice the inspired author of Matthew has Jeremiah 31:15 fulfilled when Herod killed all the male children in Bethlehem. Was Rachel literally weeping for her children when Herod killed the children in Bethlehem and surrounding areas? Or has Jeremiah 31:15 been interpreted?
Matthew 2:16-18 Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men. Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah: “A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be comforted, because they are no more.”

Notice the inspired James declares Amos 9:11-12 was fulfilled during his time. The fallen tent of David was rebuilt SO THAT the remnant may seek the Lord and all the Gentiles. This means that the tent was already rebuilt in James day. Was a literal tent rebuilt or was this interpreted by James in relation to Jesus?
Acts 15:13-18 When they had finished speaking, James declared, “Brothers, listen to me! Simona has told us how God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people to be His own. The words of the prophets agree with this, as it is written: ‘After this I will return and rebuild the fallen tent of David. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it, SO THAT the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear My name, says the Lord who does these things that have been known for ages.’

Notice the inspired Peter states that the resurrection of Christ is God setting of David's descendants on the throne. He quotes 2 old testament prophecies to make his point: Psalm 110:1, psalm 16:10.
Acts 2:29-31 Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Jesus clearly states John the Baptist is the Elijah to come. This is not a literal interpretation of scripture, as John the Baptist is not literally Elijah. Why didn't Israel recognize the coming of Elijah, because they interpreted scripture literally.
matthew 11:12-14 From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subject to violence,c and the violent lay claim to it. For all the prophets and the Law prophesied until John. And if you are willing to accept it, he is the Elijah who was to come.
Matthew 17:10-13 The disciples asked Him, “Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?”
Jesus replied, “Elijah does indeed come, and he will restore all things. But I tell you that Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him whatever they wished. In the same way, the Son of Man will suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that He was speaking to them about John the Baptist.

Biblewriter said:
And that is the only eschatological "ism" that is based on simply believing everything the Bible says.

incorrect. Preterism, historicism, idealism, etc.. all believe everything the Bible says. The difference is interpretation.

keras · Dec 27, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
And when it doesn't come, you will throw all your futurist notions out the window........

All of the Bible Prophets were proved to be Prophets, some way or another.
Therefore we can be sure that what they have told us WILL happen and just because it has taken 1000's of years and still counting, that is no reason to comment as you have.
In fact your comment is the height of foolishness and means that you simply disbelieve God's Word.

BTW, I like many others here just scroll quickly over all your lengthy and wasted effort posts. We are all tired of your silly helivan and your Revelation 14:6 quote is still future anyway!

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 27, 2018

claninja said:
Biblewriter said: ↑
And that is the only eschatological "ism" that is based on simply believing everything the Bible says.

Click to expand...

incorrect. Preterism, historicism, idealism, etc.. all believe everything the Bible says. The difference is interpretation.

I would say both translation and interpretation.
One such word is "gehenna".
I could use some more input from fellow preterists on this thread.
Thanks......

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

LittleLambofJesus said:
In Matthew 23:33, Jesus brings up the word "gehenna" and tells those Jewish religious leaders they are heading there. My question is, could the gehenna in this verse be the same as the "Lake of Fire" in Revelation?
Discuss.............

Matthew 23:33
'Serpents! brood of vipers!
how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

LUKE 16:24
24 "Then he cried and said, 'Father Abraham[NC Faith/Life?]! have mercy on me! and send Lazarus[Resurrection]! that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue;
for I am[OC Law/Death?] tormented in this flame.' "

If the Pharisees and scribes understood Yeshua's prophetic parable, it must have astonished and infuriated them. How could the Jews become alienated from God while the elect Gentiles became the "seed of Abraham"?
Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable.
This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews

In Revelation, both an OC people and a great OC City are shown with smoke burning:

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting<939> of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages.......

Revelation 18:7
‘As much as she did glorify Herself and did revel, so much torment<939> and sorrow give to Her,
because in her heart she saith, I sit a queen, and a widow I am not, and sorrow I shall not see;

Revelation 19:3
And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the Smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

............

.

.

keras · Dec 27, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
and what about

Matthew 24:34
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened [70 AD]

Luke 21:29-36 Jesus told them a parable: Look at the fig tree, as soon as it buds you can tell that summer is near. In the same way when you see all this happening, you will know that the Kingdom of God is near. Truly, I tell you the present generation will live to see it all. My words will never pass away.
Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by dissipation or worldly cares so that the great Day catches you unawares, for that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over. Be on the alert, praying at all times for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to stand in the presence of the Son of Man. Ref: REB

The present generation - or the generation present: the same thing. When they see Judah become a nation again, we will know the end times are upon us.

The fig tree – Israel is the vine, Judah is the fig tree: Isaiah 5:7, Hosea 9:10. The parable of the fig tree applies to the House of Judah, Matthew 21:43. Therefore when Judah starts to bud, that is: becomes a nation again, as they formed the State of Israel in May 1948, then within that generation, [a lifetime of 70-80 years] the end times events will commence. Ezekiel 12:25

The great Day – The Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, the multi prophesied judgement/punishment of the nations, an event that will come unexpectedly, sudden and shocking all those who have failed to understand the Lord's plans and purposes. Isaiah 29:5-12, Isaiah 66:15-16, Revelation 6:12-17

That Day will come upon everyone – There is no ‘rapture’ at this time, all will go through this time of testing. Isaiah 24:1, Psalms 50:1-3, Zephaniah 3:8

Strength to pass safely through – This is often mistranslated as ‘escape all these things’, which is a serious error and is incorrect, as the previous sentence has just stated ‘that Day will come upon everyone’. What the Lord promises, is not a removal from earth – an escape as such, but protection. Psalms 91, Isaiah 43:1-2

The presence of the Son of Man – Jesus called Himself the ‘Son of Man’, when He was present on earth in a human body. This was necessary so as He could become our ‘kinsman Redeemer’. After the great Day of the Lord, when every faithful Christian has gathered in the holy Land, they will stand in His presence when the 144,000 are selected; Revelation 14:1. Then, later at His glorious Return, His Name will be ‘The Word of God’. Revelation 19:13

Biblewriter · Dec 27, 2018

claninja said:
Preterism, historicism, idealism, etc.. all believe everything the Bible says. The difference is interpretation.

No, all of these absolutely require their adherents to assume that most of Bible prophecy simply does not mean what it explicitly says. There can be no escape from this indisputable fact.

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