Did God predestine the Fall?

Hammster said:

Why do you willingly believe lies?

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Why do you falsely claim other posters believe lies??

Hammster said:

Doomed to hell? You’ll need to explain what you mean by that.

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Well, if people are destined to go to hell, that means they are doomed to hell. If they choose hell, then that is their destination of choice.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Isa 53:10 Yet it was the LORD’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes[fn] his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

Isaiah 53:1 (NIV)

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I almost cheered when I noticed you posted this Scripture. The words from Scripture in the sub-conscience of my mind, but could not remember exactly where the verse is located. Long days, crazy busy every day life, medical issues working on my memory, and at the same time reminding me how I need to spend more time with more frequency studying the Word of God!

What a powerful sermon preached by Piper on Judas and the sovereignty of God! (from the link at the bottom of post #313)

dad said:

If they show that the false teaching that God predestined billions to hell, that is perpetuated by certain religious pretenders, they don't need to insert anything into the truth.

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Calling the teaching that God predestines billions to hell false, is not an argument and certainly does not falsify the teaching.

In response to "billions to hell", veiled attempts at pitting one attribute of God namely love against another attribute of God namely wrath/justice against one another, here read this passage of Scripture for meditation:

mark kennedy said:

No, we are all cursed, that is the Pauline doctrine:

Sin came as the result of, 'many died by the trespass of the one man' (Rom. 5:15), 'judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation' (Rom. 5:16), the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man (Rom. 5:17), 'just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men' (Rom. 5:18), 'through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners' (Rom. 5:19).​

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You must be born again:

At one time we too were foolish, disobedient, deceived and enslaved by all kinds of passions and pleasures. We lived in malice and envy, being hated and hating one another. But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life. (Titus 3:3-7)​

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I never said there was no such thing as free will or a time of decision, that's a strawman. The emphasis in the New Testament is on what God did and does, not your choice. So far I've yet to see Predestination seriously refuted as a formal doctrine. It would be hard to do since we get the word from Paul:

In him we were also chosen,​

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Christians were chosen, yes. Because they chose Him

having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ,​

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What he worked out was providing us a way to choose eternal life. That is the will of God.

might be for the praise of his glory. And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory. (Eph. 1;11-14)​

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There we have it WHEN we chose to believe. Not before. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thous shalt be saved.

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God predestined and foreknew what how we are saved,

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?? What does this even mean?

What was determined before was that all who believe in Jesus, (ask to be saved) would be saved. THAT is how.

because righteousness can only come from him. Of course you have a choice, predestination isn't fate, it's the plans and purposes of God that have not changed since the foundation of the world.

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Well, long as you define 'predestinity' as having the choice, fine. Too bad that is not really what most people define it as.

Who denies that we have a choice whether or not we 'put our hope in Christ', as Paul describes it? The issue here is justification by grace through faith and the washing, renewing and regeneration that comes from the Holy Spirit. Faith is not a work, Jesus being the author and finisher of our faith:

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No. The issue here is whether billions of people were pre fated to go to hell, and others pre fated to go to heaven regardless of choice. We just had one Calvie here recently say that our choice was 'insignificant'.

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I'm told by some that I'm not a very good Calvinist, I can live with that, I've also been told I'm not really a Creationist, I'm not buying that either. But if you want to consider this from the perspective of a solid Calvinist, try this guy:

1. Based on 2 Timothy 2:25–26, how would you describe yourself before God granted you repentance? What language does Paul give to describe our condition?

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This seems to be talking about believers. Believers that messed up, and got on the wrong track. So if they were already saved believers, they had repented already for salvation. That would not be the condition of people before they choose to get saved.

Faith and repentance are gifts of God, just like grace and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit

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They are gifts we can get, or refuse!

. At some level you have a choice, when did God know what that would be is a pointless question.

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Millions of us actually know precisely when we got saved.

Salvation is based on a revelation only God can make to you (Romans 3:21-22).

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He revealed it to all men, or wants to. That was His command to us, help reveal it! Salvation is something we have after we ask and accept Jesus.

I have always been puzzled how people could turn the Sabbath or water baptism into works, yet somehow they manage.

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Can't help you there. I am not sure why religious folks gravitate to certain pet doctrines.

What I find absent in your arguments is the gospel, where does the cross and the work of the Holy Spirit fit into your ideas regarding salvation?

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They are the reason we can get saved. That was the way God made for us.

Everything related to salvation whether justification, sanctification or works of righteousness are gifts of God.

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Gifts that we choose to accept or refuse. People are not pre fated to hell, but they end up there by their deliberate choice to reject Christ.

Grace and peace,
Mark[/QUOTE]

Apologetic_Warrior said:

What a powerful sermon preached by Piper on Judas and the sovereignty of God! (from the link at the bottom of post #313)

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That was a spell, not a sermon. You can see that he is gently massaging the mind and getting it ready to jump at a command. His error, and the lie of the devil, is in the words he spoke at this point:

"The Lord bruised him. Behind Herod and Pilate and the Gentiles and the people of Israel was Jesus’s own Father who loved him with an infinite love."

That is a perfect demonstration of how the ignorant and unstable twist the scriptures and bring the way of truth into disrepute.

God is unable to compromise truth and righteousness, right? So if someone is coming up to Him, saying "we have your son and we are going to kill him unless He does an act of obeisance to us", what is He to do?

.. remember, Jesus "laid down His life for His friends" .. why? because they were not ready to endure the day of The Lord (Matthew 26:33-35, Matthew 26:56b).

redleghunter said:

Dad I was speaking of before our conversion. Can you address that please.

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Ask the question you want addressed.

redleghunter said:

You don’t believe God has a say on who is or is not converted?

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His say is that we get to choose!

redleghunter said:

He’s speaking of everyone’s condition even those who are later converted.

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Ok, let's review who Eph 1 is talking to.

1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.


So in times past, we WERE, before getting saved, under the wrath of God. Once we get saved we are NOT appointed to wrath.

Hoo ha.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Calling the teaching that God predestines billions to hell false, is not an argument and certainly does not falsify the teaching.

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So you admit to that teaching? Well admitting to false doctrine does not make it right!

In response to "billions to hell", veiled attempts at pitting one attribute of God namely love against another attribute of God namely wrath/justice against one another, here read this passage of Scripture for meditation:

2 Peter 2:4 "For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment; 5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly; 6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly; 7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked 8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)– 9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment, 10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries, 11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord."​

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Nothing in these verses remotely support a belief that God damns people to hell regardless of their choices.

Pretty lame.

dad said:

So you admit to that teaching? Well admitting to false doctrine does not make it right!

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Interesting, I do not recall admitting to a double predestination where God is active in the destination of the elect AND non-elect. I do believe you're attempting to pin something to nothing.

dad said:

Nothing in these verses remotely support a belief that God damns people to hell regardless of their choices.

Pretty lame.

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Yeah I imagine the folks in Noah's days thought he was pretty lame, but they soon learned who God thought was lame. Here again you're loading statements with either your misunderstanding or worse, of course I am referring to "regardless of their choices". However I suspect you deny the doctrine of original sin and the doctrine of the will in bondage to sin, both clearly taught in Scripture. Further I suspect little acknowledgement from the likes of you that it is God who makes the unwilling willing, that is is God who supernaturally brings life to the dead will. Sure, the elect "choose Christ", after God has made it so, after the supernatural work of regeneration is performed by God the Holy Spirit alone. The naturalistic notion of decisional regeneration is lie from the pit of hell. It assumes that man in his natural unregenerate state can by his will bring about supernatural results! Well that's not only unbiblical, but irrational nonsense.

Apologetic_Warrior said:

I almost cheered when I noticed you posted this Scripture. The words from Scripture in the sub-conscience of my mind, but could not remember exactly where the verse is located. Long days, crazy busy every day life, medical issues working on my memory, and at the same time reminding me how I need to spend more time with more frequency studying the Word of God!

What a powerful sermon preached by Piper on Judas and the sovereignty of God! (from the link at the bottom of post #313)

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Almost good testimony.
Please look into that piper - he's been shown to be teaching false for probably a decade or more, as well as those he associated with.
At least don't promote it.... test everything by Scripture (see online if there's time and Yahweh permits) ....

Apologetic_Warrior said:

Interesting, I do not recall admitting to a double predestination where God is active in the destination of the elect AND non-elect. I do believe you're attempting to pin something to nothing.

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Explain? Do or do you not think that many people are going to hell and have no choice but to do so?

Yeah I imagine the folks in Noah's days thought he was pretty lame, but they soon learned who God thought was lame. Here again you're loading statements with either your misunderstanding or worse, of course I am referring to "regardless of their choices".

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Well, clear it up for us. Should be simple. Do you renounce the doctrine that men are pre destined to hell or not?? Or perhaps you think they are not reaaallly predestined? Or..??

However I suspect you deny the doctrine of original sin and the doctrine of the will in bondage to sin, both clearly taught in Scripture.

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False. We are free free free to choose the gift of eternal life Jesus offers to all! That is not bondage. As for how we still struggle in this life after getting saved, doing things at times we would rather not...etc etc...that is not bondage really either. That is saved people struggling to do better.

Further I suspect little acknowledgement from the likes of you that it is God who makes the unwilling willing, that is is God who supernaturally brings life to the dead will.

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The likes of me eh? Ha. What like is that in your mind? God does not MAKE people choose. IF we choose, then He helps us. He even paves the way, trying to make it as easy as possible I would think. But He does NOT force people to go to hell, or heaven! THAT would be predestination.

Sure, the elect "choose Christ", after God has made it so, after the supernatural work of regeneration is performed by God the Holy Spirit alone.

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We can't get 'regenerated' until we first GET generated! (saved, invite Jesus inside)

The naturalistic notion of decisional regeneration is lie from the pit of hell.

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It seems you are actually saying, in common English, that we do not decide to get saved. Or are you saying man can get regenerated in the spirit without being saved at all!? In either case, you would be wrong, and shown a false accuser.

It assumes that man in his natural unregenerate state can by his will bring about supernatural results!

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How would inviting Jesus into our hearts and lives and asking for forgiveness NOT involve supernatural results!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????

dad said:

Explain? Do or do you not think that many people are going to hell and have no choice but to do so?

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Do you believe the will dead in sin can make a living choice pleasing to God?

dad said:

Well, clear it up for us. Should be simple. Do you renounce the doctrine that men are pre destined to hell or not?? Or perhaps you think they are not reaaallly predestined? Or..??

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I renounce the false doctrine of inclusivism, I embrace the exclusivist claims of Christ Himself, that He is the way (not one of many), the truth, and the life. Because I hold to the exclusivity of Christ, that alone should give the answer, because it negates all other non-Christian religions from the way, the truth, and the LIFE.

dad said:

False. We are free free free to choose the gift of eternal life Jesus offers to all! That is not bondage.

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Wrong, only in Christ is the will in bondage to sin set free, only those in Christ have been set free. At what point on the road to Damascus did Saul "choose" Christ? Did Christ ask for his permission? I must have missed that part, maybe you can refresh me with Scripture.

dad said:

The likes of me eh? Ha. What like is that in your mind? God does not MAKE people choose. IF we choose, then He helps us. He even paves the way, trying to make it as easy as possible I would think. But He does NOT force people to go to hell, or heaven! THAT would be predestination.

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Naturally a valley of dry bones cannot be anything but a valley of dry bones. Naturally the mind hostile to God cannot be anything but hostile to God. Naturally the hardened heart cannot be anything but stone cold hard. Naturally sons of disobedience cannot be anything but disobedient, it is not in their nature to contradict their own nature.

dad said:

We can't get 'regenerated' until we first GET generated! (saved, invite Jesus inside) It seems you are actually saying, in common English, that we do not decide to get saved. Or are you saying man can get regenerated in the spirit without being saved at all!? In either case, you would be wrong, and shown a false accuser.

How would inviting Jesus into our hearts and lives and asking for forgiveness NOT involve supernatural results!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!???????????

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You're saying a man can choose to go back into his mother's womb. I'm saying this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible.

Hammster said:

Since there’s no choice they will ever make that will affect their destination, then no.

My question: if God is omniscient, and already knows who will be in hell for eternity, is there anything you can do to change that?

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Since Yahweh is eternally unchanging,
there is nothing anyone can do to change Him.

This is part of why the ancient people who knew Him trusted Him - unlike people He does not lie, does not change,
He is Faithful and True and Trustworthy and Perfect in Justice and in Mercy and in Judgmet, Perfect in every Way, there is nothing in Him that could ever be better or worse ! Absolutely Perfect , with no iniquity ever,
with no spot nor wrinkle ever.
Trust Yahweh.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Almost good testimony.
Please look into that piper - he's been shown to be teaching false for probably a decade or more, as well as those he associated with.
At least don't promote it.... test everything by Scripture (see online if there's time and Yahweh permits) ....

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I wouldn't call Pastor Piper a false teacher by any stretch of the imagination, neither would I call the complete body of his teachings the inerrant truth of God, I reserve that notion for the Holy Scriptures alone. I think (in spiritual writings) all men beyond the apostles have their quirks, flaws, areas of struggle, areas where they may be prone to inconsistency. I do find a great deal of consistency and agreement though among Calvinistic/Reformed theologians as a whole, and especially in the Confessions.

Did you read anything in my post needing testing? Certainly I agree with the principal of it!