Approaches to Eschatology

BABerean2 · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
There are a number of approaches to the study of eschatology. But all of them can be boiled down to two choices. Do we believe that God actually meant what He said, or do we not believe that?

All the various eschatological "isms" except one fall into the first choice. That is, for them to even appear to be rational, it is necessary to begin with an assumption that the many prophetic utterances in the Bible do not actually mean what they say. This takes in Preterism, Historicism, Covenant Theology, and Idealism. All of these deal with the various prophecies in the Bible in different ways. But all of them start with an assumption that they do not really mean what they actually say.

The only "ism" that assumes that the entire Bible actually means everything it says is Dispensationalism.

Is there some reason you left out New Covenant Theology?

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

Douggg · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Actually, this was taught, and clearly taught, in some of the very oldest Christian commentaries on Bible prophecy. And continued to be taught at least up to the fifth century.

James, I disagree with the principle, since...

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

...I maintain there is one way that God relates to man, even before man was created.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

jgr said:
You insist on rejecting God's explicit declaration that His Son is the sole and exclusive Heir, and attempting to substitute a disinherited dead decaying carcass.

In God's New Will and Testament, all covenants and promises are fulfilled in Christ and those who are in Christ.

The OT covenants and promises are the promissory clauses of God's Old Will and Testament, and they are both revoked and fulfilled in the promissory clauses of His New Will and Testament, written in the Blood of His Son Jesus Christ, the Divine Testator, coming into full force and effect upon His death.

If you have made your own Will and Testament, you will see that the very first clause states the following or its equivalent:

"I HEREBY REVOKE all former Wills and other testamentary dispositions by me at any time therefore made and declare this to be my Last Will and Testament."

This means that all former wills and testaments, and all of their promissory clauses in their entirety, are completely null and void. In their place, the promissory clauses of the current last new will and testament are the only ones in force and effect. Any promissory clause which appeared in the old will and testament, but does not appear in the new will and testament, is irrevocably null and void unless yet another new will and testament is made which re-includes it.

Thus we see:

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Hebrews 10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

Hebrews 8
13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

God`s New Will and Testament is everlasting:

Hebrews 13
20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant.

There is none greater.

We see other new promissory clauses of the New Will and Testament in:

Matthew 21:33-45
In this parable, the son, who is identified as the heir, typifies Christ.

Galatians 3:16
Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

In them, we see that the Heir and Beneficiary is Christ alone, that all of the promises are affirmed and confirmed in Him, and that He is Heir of all things. All includes the OT land promises, the restoration promises, the blessings promises, and all else. There are no exceptions.

And His New Will and Testament contains even better promises:

Hebrews 8
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

Such as:

Hebrews 11
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Additional promissory clauses in...:

Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

...make us who are in Christ joint heirs with Him.

But notice:
There are no promissory clauses for anyone, Jew or Gentile, who is not in Christ.

Since its beginnings, dispensationalism has incessantly and loudly proclaimed that it is Israel that is the fulfillment and heir of a vast array of God's promises and bequests. One need only read and hear a small fraction of dispensationalism's prodigious prophetic output to recognize that Israel is the chief cornerstone in the foundation of the dispensational prophetic edifice.

Consequently, not even Christ Himself is permitted to replace Israel as the anointed recipient of that which dispensationalism believes it is entitled to. In any and every instance whenever it appears that Israel's entitlements are being questioned, charges such as “calling God a liar”, “anti-Semitic”, "evil", "heretical", and various other epithets are directed at the perceived offender. It is the equivalent of identity politics within the church of God. Thus Christ is denied His own entire, rightful, and exclusive entitlements as Fulfillment and Heir of all of God's promises and bequests.

The reason is self-evident. Israel's removal as the anointed recipient is the equivalent of the removal of dispensationalism's chief cornerstone, and the consequent and unavoidable collapse of the edifice which it supports. The result is effectively dispensational detonation, and the disappearance of a pervasive, not to mention lucrative, presence and influence within the Church.

But Scripture is unequivocal in its declarations, notwithstanding the denials directed at it.

Revelation 19:10
“...the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy”

Israel does not substitute for Jesus.

Jesus declares Himself to be the Fulfillment of all things concerning Himself.

Luke 24:44
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Other Scriptures confirm His declaration, and further declare Him as Heir of all things.

2 Corinthians 1:20
For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Hebrews 1:1,2
1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

There is no substitute for “all”.

In summation of which, Scripture declares:
Colossians 3:11
“...Christ is all, and in all”

Notice that Israel is conspicuous by its absence in the foregoing declarations.

The reason: It's not about Israel at all.

It's all about Him.

The scriptures indeed explicitly say that Christ is the heir of all things. But they most absolutely never say anything even approaching saying that He is "the sole and exclusive heir of all things." Indeed, they explicitly say the very opposite, that
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Romans 8:16-17

As for your rant, about wills, you are only using human reasoning in a vain attempt to escape the explicitly stated words of God.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Is there some reason you left out New Covenant Theology?

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

That is just a "sub-ism" of Covenant Theology.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

Douggg said:
James, I disagree with the principle, since...

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

...I maintain there is one way that God relates to man, even before man was created.

Did God continue to walk and talk with men after He expelled Adam and Eve from the garden?

BABerean2 · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
That is just a "sub-ism" of Covenant Theology.

Absolutely not.

What is New Covenant Theology?

Pastor Douglas Goodin

.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

claninja said:
Right. Which is exactly my point. You don't take "near" or "soon" to mean "near" or "soon", even though that's what the words mean, but interpret it to mean something different: 2000+ years because God doesn't live in time based on another Bible verse.

How is this different then what the preterists, historicists, etc... do?

I could use the same argument. the 1000 year millennial reign doesn't really 1000 years, it means 1 day based on 2 peter 3. the 1000 years is based on God's time frame, not our time frame.

Actually, we do indeed take both "near" and "soon" to mean exactly what God said. These are relative terms. And I answer, relative to what? You insist it is relative to mankind, and I answer it is relative to God. So we indeed take these words to literally mean what they actually said.

But an explicit statement of a period of time is not a relative term. To change an explicit statement of time, stated six times over in just six verses, into a relative term, is to claim it does not mean what it actually said.

Douggg · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Did God continue to walk and talk with men after He expelled Adam and Eve from the garden?

Genesis 5:24. But obviously things changed for man after Adam and Eve sinned. God has never changed though. Sin separates man from God. There is only one way for any man that brings man back into relationship with God like before the fall, and even better, and that is by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

Douggg said:
Genesis 5:4. But obviously things changed for man after Adam and Eve sinned. God has never changed though. Sin separates man from God. There is only one way for any man that brings man back into relationship with God like before the fall, and even better, and that is by the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Things did not just change for man at that time. God also changed the way He related to mankind.

Another such change is explicitly stated.

30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, Acts 17:30

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Absolutely not.

What is New Covenant Theology?

Pastor Douglas Goodin

.

Very, well, tell us the difference, in your own words. By now you should know that no one listens to the many videos you keep posting.

Douggg · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Things did not just change for man at that time. God also changed the way He related to mankind.

Another such change is explicitly stated.

30 Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, Acts 17:30

I meant Genesis 5:24. I corrected my post.

Nonetheless, to the actual point your are making. God never changed that sin separates man from God. And every man is redeemed from sin, and the broken relationship by one way, that has never changed even before man was created.

As far as eschatology is concerned, there is no reason to introduce the doctrine of dispensationalism. Just as there is no reason to bring up New Covenant theology.

jgr · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
The scriptures indeed explicitly say that Christ is the heir of all things. But they most absolutely never say anything even approaching saying that He is "the sole and exclusive heir of all things." Indeed, they explicitly say the very opposite, that
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, 17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together. Romans 8:16-17

As for your rant, about wills, you are only using human reasoning in a vain attempt to escape the explicitly stated words of God.

Christ is the Heir of all things, making Him the sole and exclusive Heir.

He then in grace and mercy declares through the Spirit that we who are in Him share what the Father has bequeathed Him, as joint-heirs.

The only Israel who are joint-heirs are the Israel who are in Him.

As He has declared in His New Will and Testament.

It's a privilege to rant the Word of God.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

jgr said:
Christ is the Heir of all things, making Him the sole and exclusive Heir.

He then in grace and mercy declares through the Spirit that we who are in Him share what the Father has bequeathed Him, as joint-heirs.

The only Israel who are joint-heirs are the Israel who are in Him.

As He has declared in His New Will and Testament.

It's a privilege to rant the Word of God.

And He has just as explicitly stated that all of the descendants of the ancient twelve tribes of Israel who survive to that time will eventually be brought to repentance, and thus be blessed through the "new will and testament," even though that is a term totally foreign to scripture.

jgr · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
And He has just as explicitly stated that the descendants of the ancient twelve tribes of Israel will eventually be all brought to repentance

Scripture?

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

Douggg said:
I meant Genesis 5:24. I corrected my post.

Nonetheless, to the actual point your are making. God never changed that sin separates man from God. And every man is redeemed from sin, and the broken relationship by one way, that has never changed even before man was created.

This is absolutely correct. But God has indeed changed the details of how we are to approach Him. In the past, He required the sacrifices of animals. Now He does not even accept such sacrifices.

As far as eschatology is concerned, there is no reason to introduce the doctrine of dispensationalism. Just as there is no reason to bring up New Covenant theology.

I bring up Dispensationalism simply because that is the label men have pasted on a simple belief that God is indeed going to keep all the ancient promised He made.

jgr · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
And He has just as explicitly stated that all of the descendants of the ancient twelve tribes of Israel who survive to that time will eventually be brought to repentance, and thus be blessed through the "new will and testament," even though that is a term totally foreign to scripture.

Hebrews 9
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

A testament which is of force after men are dead is also known as a will.

What do you think it is?

Douggg · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
This is absolutely correct. But God has indeed changed the details of how we are to approach Him. In the past, He required the sacrifices of animals. Now He does not even accept such sacrifices.

I bring up Dispensationalism simply because that is the label men have pasted on a simple belief that God is indeed going to keep all the ancient promised He made.

The issue of the doctrine of Dispenationalism is not a priority topic for me. I think New Covenant theogy persons are focused on it though. And their objection to dispensationalism bleeds over into so many threads, it seems.

I focus on eschatology from the futurist frame of reference.

Biblewriter · Dec 26, 2018

jgr said:
Scripture?

I have quoted the scripture for this here many times.

When Israel finally sees their long awaited Messiah, “one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ (Zechariah 13:6) The result is that “In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.” (Zechariah 12:11-14)

"And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem." (Isaiah 4:3)

" 'And it shall come to pass in all the land,' Says the LORD, 'That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The LORD is my God.' " (Zechariah 13:8-9)

Again, we read, “Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7) “And so all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26)

And the fact that this restoration will include absolutely all of them is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 36:10.

jgr · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
I have quoted the scripture for this here many times.

When Israel finally sees their long awaited Messiah, “one will say to him, ‘What are these wounds between your arms?’ Then he will answer, ‘Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.’ (Zechariah 13:6) The result is that “In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. And the land shall mourn, every family by itself: the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shimei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that remain, every family by itself, and their wives by themselves.” (Zechariah 12:11-14)

"And it shall come to pass that he who is left in Zion and remains in Jerusalem will be called holy--everyone who is recorded among the living in Jerusalem." (Isaiah 4:3)

" 'And it shall come to pass in all the land,' Says the LORD, 'That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die, But one-third shall be left in it: I will bring the one-third through the fire, Will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on My name, And I will answer them. I will say, 'This is My people'; And each one will say, 'The LORD is my God.' " (Zechariah 13:8-9)

Again, we read, “Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart.” (Jeremiah 24:7) “And so all Israel will be saved” (Romans 11:26)

And the fact that this restoration will include absolutely all of them is explicitly stated in Ezekiel 36:10.

Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

All Israel:
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only one Israel shall be saved.

All Israel.

The faithful obedient elect beloved foreknown remnant of Romans 11.

parousia70 · Dec 26, 2018

Biblewriter said:
Actually, we do indeed take both "near" and "soon" to mean exactly what God said. These are relative terms. And I answer, relative to what? You insist it is relative to mankind, and I answer it is relative to God.

Yet you have no scriptural mandate to do that.

Everytime scripture speaks about a time frame relevant to the fulfillment of prophesy, it is given to be understood by how time relates to men, NOT how time relates to God.

Philippians 2:19
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timothy shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.

Are you waiting for Timothy's SOON arrival to YOU?
When are you expecting Ol'e Tim to show up?
Tomorrow? Next Week? Next Month, next year?
Certainly "shortly" can't go beyond YOUR lifetime, if in fact this passage is written to and for YOU, right?

Is not this God Breathed scripture written TO and FOR you?
Are you, not the "you" in this passage to whom the HS has directed and inspired Paul to address this passage to?

If not why not?
Is not the Holy Spirit, through Paul, telling YOU in this passage that He Hopes Jesus will send Timothy to YOU Shortly??

Or, do you say this scripture ONLY relates, and is only applicable, to the 1st century Phillippians, and that Shortly, means, well... Shortly, as they understood it in human terms back then?

Genesis 7:1-4. There, God told Noah:

Enter the ark, you and all your household; for you alone I have seen to be righteous before Me in this time [generation]. You shall take with you of ever clean animal by sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female; also of the birds of the sky, by sevens, male and female, to keep offspring alive on the face of all the earth. For after seven more days, I will send rain on the earth forty days and forty nights; and I will blot our from the face of the land every living thing that I have made.

There are several things in this passage that should be noted. First, this is a prophecy of judgment. Secondly, God declared when the judgment, i.e., the rain, would start. Thirdly, He stated how long the rain would last. Fourthly, God spoke this to Noah, a man trapped in time. God was very specific as to when the rain would begin and to how long it would last. God told Noah that after seven days it would rain for forty days and nights. Now, our first question regarding this passage is not how we should interpret what God said, but how would Noah interpret what God said. Would he understand that God was outside time? That is to say, the references that God made concerning when the judgment would come were to be measured by how time relates to God? Applying the futurist’s interpretation of 2 Peter 3:8-9to this passage, was God telling Noah that after 7,000 years it would begin to rain and once it started raining, it would continue for 40,000 years? Or should the plain, everyday definitions of the terms be understood? We find our answer in verse’s 10 and 12:

And it came about after the seven days, that the water of the flood came upon the earth¼ And the rain fell upon the earth for forty days and forty nights.

Here, just a few short verses later, we have the fulfillment of that prophecy. This shows us that God meant exactly what He said to Noah. Seven days equaled seven days. Forty days and nights equaled forty days and nights.

In Ezekiel 12:21-28, it is written:

Then the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, what is this proverb you people have concerning the land of Israel, saying, ‘The days are long and every vision fails?’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "I will make this proverb cease so that they will no longer use it as a proverb in Israel." But tell them, "The days a draw near as well as the fulfillment of every vision. For there will no longer be any false vision or flattering divination within the house of Israel. For I the Lord shall speak, and whatever word I speak will be performed. It will no longer be delayed, for in you days, O rebellious house, I shall speak the word and perform it," declares the Lord God.’ " Furthermore, the word of the Lord came to me saying, "Son of man, behold, the house of Israel is saying, ‘The vision that he sees is for many years from now, and he prophesies of times far off.’ Therefore say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed," ’ " declares the Lord God.

In this passage the nation of Israel said that the time statements of God’s word were irrelevant.

This is exactly what the futurist claims about the time statements concerning the coming of Christ in the first century. They say, just like Israel, "Those passages were not for the original audience but were ‘for many years from now’ and for ‘times far off.’ " But notice what God thinks about that kind of hermeneutic. God said, "None of My words will be delayed any longer. Whatever word I speak will be performed." He stated that He would say the word and He would perform it. Again, notice the implication of that statement. God Himself fulfills His word. When we try and say that the imminent time statements in the New Testament concerning Christ’s coming in the first century are really "for many years from now," i.e., our time, we are saying that God will not fulfill His word! So the real issue here is not just differences of interpretation concerning eschatology, but the nature and character of God. If the futurist is correct in his interpretation and application new testament time imminency statements (of which there are over 100), then God is made out to be a liar because He will not fulfill His word when He said He would. Plain and simple. If the futurist is correct, then we might as well be atheists because God Himself cannot even be trusted, and then we are lost. Why? Because, if God is dishonest concerning when He would fulfill His word, how do we know He was honest concerning the doctrines of Grace? Or anything else for that matter? It’s simple. We don’t. So, again, this is much more than just a difference of interpretation. Our salvation depends on God keeping every aspect of His word. Including when He was to fulfill it.

Conclusion

1. By letting scripture interpret Scripture, we can see that when God gives a time statement regarding when prophecy would be fulfilled, unless instructed otherwise, the plain meaning of the terms should be used.

2. By using historical documentation we can see that prophecies were fulfilled exactly when God said they would be.

3. That God Himself fulfills His word. And if He doesn’t fulfill it when He said He would, then "we are of all men most miserable."

Therefore, we have a historical, and more importantly, a Biblical interpretation of the time statements of prophecy. Unless otherwise stated, God intended the time statements of prophecy to be interpreted in their plain, everyday meaning. God is faithful to His word. He ALWAYS fulfills it WHEN He said He would.

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Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

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