If love is the acid test of our Christian walk.....

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Gideons300

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Jesus was speaking under the old covenant which was conditional and not under the new covenant of His blood.
Again, this thread is going in a different direction. Would it be possibleif you guys made a new thread about rewards? I really appreciate it.

Thanks. ☺️
 
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Lost4words

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Dog jumps over the fence.

There is only one meaning to that phrase.

The Bible can be as simple and as easy to understand as that phrase.
Context, cross references, prayer, etc. can help to nail down the meaning if it is a verse or passage that is challenging.

We can be assured that God is good.
So God would not agree with a belief that would seek to justify sin or evil in any way.

What you just said confirms my post above #116. Thanks
 
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Lost4words

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What if people live and die based on what they believe. After all, God Himself said "My people perish for lack of knowledge." (Hosea 4:6) So, what if, though the forum people who think they are right, but aren't, are exposed by God to something they hadn't considered and have a change of heart? And, what if, they don't, but because of someone truly speaking God's Doctrine, the Spirit comes through and overtakes them? Is that a bad thing?

Even by posting such a thing, you suggest that you know better--either that there is no correct interpretation or that your people have it. Either way, you would be wrong. Your lack of clarity on Scripture doesn't mean that it isn't possible to have some clarity.

I would suggest, if you don't like hearing people with strong opinions about what is right and what is wrong, you stay off parts of this forum where you will be offended by people who do or just stay off the forum completely. It is designed to be a discussion site.

I was talking in general. About the whole forum. Not just this section.

Every day we have someone come along proclaiming to have a nessage from God and knowing the real truth from scripture.
 
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Lost4words

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So, if you believe what you write. You believe you are a sinner, not a saint. This is in contrast to what Scripture says about those God regenerates. If you are a sinner, you can't help but sin. But, if you are a saint, sinning should be the exception to the rule, not your rule of life. God is faithful to forgive when you genuinely repent and ask for forgiveness. The idea that you just can't help yourself but sin, is not supported in New Testament Scripture and only leads to numbing the Voice telling you not to do it. Even Jesus didn't say to the adulteress: "you can't help yourself, so go and sin." He said: "Go and sin no more." Why would He tell her to do something that He knew was impossible for her to do?

And that was before the Holy Spirit was given. We, who are truly regenerated by God, are given the Holy Spirit for a reason. We are to "walk in the Spirit"--who will never lead us to sin--"not in the flesh"--which will routinely lead us to sin and which Paul said brings corruption and death. Can we still make mistakes (sin) in our walk with God? Yes, but it is the exception, not our rule of life. We were given a new nature and the Holy Spirit to lead us. We don't have to succumb to the old nature. But, if and when we do, and we repent and ask His forgiveness, He is faithful to forgive.

We are all sinners. We all need Jesus. Even the greatest Saints sinned and sought confession and absolution.
 
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Gideons300

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Hi guys, this thread was actually going quite well until it sort of started to wobble off course in a few directions. If I could, I would like to summarize here and then request to have the thread closed. Those that identify with the just of what is being shared, if you have any questions, and I know some will, feel free to message me or read back over my past posts. I haven’t strayed much in the past, lol. I probably sound like a broken record.

To those who disagree, trust me, I get it. It can be a head scratcher initially. All I ask is that you read this summary and if you find your cannot wrap your head around it, simply ask God about it. Is that fair?

To all of you, thank you for putting up with my many words. Short winded ness is not a skill I have been blessed with, lol. May God bless you all.

Hmmmmmm.... dep breath.... ok. Summary. Our main goal as believers is not just to get saved but to become light bearers, to be transformed into the image of God. Ultimately, God is love, amen? And God longs for us to know that love not just by written words but by abiding in Him and yes, feeling loved. What good is it to read that God loves us if we never actually feel it?

But how many of us struggle in our walks because we do not feel that intimacy? Our prayer lives have more often than not become dry wastelands of one sided requests. Our worship requires dimmed lights, crowds around us with raised hands, professional worship leaders, and emotion generating music. All this is great, if at home, after a hard day in the world, we still can enter His presence, say “Lord?” and immediately hear Our Father’s sweet reply “I am right here.”

And because we have lost that closeness, we ours lives are not filled to overflowing and constantly flowing with God’s immense love for us, so we have none to share with others.

We share the message of God’s love to the sinners in the world, lost and dying, and the message may be correct, but we have no love to display or to share with them, so it comes out cold and with a distinct “religious” feel.

How is the world to know that our way is THE way, when there are a multitude of other voices competing for their attention that contradict ours? I have heard many here say that love is not a feeling. If I tried to pass that off on my wife, she would have my head, lol.

Is joy not a feeling? Peace? Our misunderstanding of this has caused a misrepresentation of who God is to a world desperate to feel loved. So our Christianity paints a picture of a God who simply wants us to say a prayer and begin obeying. The love of God is never shed abroad in their hearts and thus, as hard as it is to hear it, we have blasphemed His holy name by doing so. Ouch.

Now before you begin to gather some nice sharp edged stones or begin boiling tar and plucking chickens, these are not my words, they are God’s, found in Ezekiel 36. Does God not ‘feel’ love for us? Of course He does.

So, to sum up, we as the church have lost our first love. And what happens when that occurs? Sin and disobedience creep back in. Obedience is NOT the same as love. Love produces obedience. Thus, it becomes a great barometer of how we are walking with God.... and we are not walking well, either individually or corporately.

Now this should concern us greatly. First, we have little love to share with others, so few are drawn to come to know Jesus. But more importantly in a one on one basis, our lack of feeling loved by God leads to sin and sin hardens our hearts and erodes what faith we do possess.

I am going to stop here in my summary and let you mull over these words. My next post will explain what God showed me is the reason why this occurs and how to correct it so that we never stray off, and abide in.His love. For when we do that, obedience and love for others will flow out from us as we are changed more and more into His image.

What God has for us all is mind blowing. In my next post, I hope to share the HOW of getting back to entering into God’s for us and then STAY there. I pray that if these words are hitting that sweet spot in your heart, if you know others who have been struggling with keeping their heads above water spiritually, ask them to join us.

Blessings to all,

Gids
 
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Hi guys, this thread was actually going quite well until it sort of started to wobble off course in a few directions. If I could, I would like to summarize here and then request to have the thread closed. Those that identify with the just of what is being shared, if you have any questions, and I know some will, feel free to message me or read back over my past posts. I haven’t strayed much in the past, lol. I probably sound like a broken record.

To those who disagree, trust me, I get it. It can be a head scratcher initially. All I ask is that you read this summary and if you find your cannot wrap your head around it, simply ask God about it. Is that fair?

To all of you, thank you for putting up with my many words. Short winded ness is not a skill I have been blessed with, lol. May God bless you all.

Hmmmmmm.... dep breath.... ok. Summary. Our main goal as believers is not just to get saved but to become light bearers, to be transformed into the image of God. Ultimately, God is love, amen? And God longs for us to know that love not just by written words but by abiding in Him and yes, feeling loved. What good is it to read that God loves us if we never actually feel it?

But how many of us struggle in our walks because we do not feel that intimacy? Our prayer lives have more often than not become dry wastelands of one sided requests. Our worship requires dimmed lights, crowds around us with raised hands, professional worship leaders, and emotion generating music. All this is great, if at home, after a hard day in the world, we still can enter His presence, say “Lord?” and immediately hear Our Father’s sweet reply “I am right here.”

And because we have lost that closeness, we ours lives are not filled to overflowing and constantly flowing with God’s immense love for us, so we have none to share with others.

We share the message of God’s love to the sinners in the world, lost and dying, and the message may be correct, but we have no love to display or to share with them, so it comes out cold and with a distinct “religious” feel.

How is the world to know that our way is THE way, when there are a multitude of other voices competing for their attention that contradict ours? I have heard many here say that love is not a feeling. If I tried to pass that off on my wife, she would have my head, lol.

Is joy not a feeling? Peace? Our misunderstanding of this has caused a misrepresentation of who God is to a world desperate to feel loved. So our Christianity paints a picture of a God who simply wants us to say a prayer and begin obeying. The love of God is never shed abroad in their hearts and thus, as hard as it is to hear it, we have blasphemed His holy name by doing so. Ouch.

Now before you begin to gather some nice sharp edged stones or begin boiling tar and plucking chickens, these are not my words, they are God’s, found in Ezekiel 36. Does God not ‘feel’ love for us? Of course He does.

So, to sum up, we as the church have lost our first love. And what happens when that occurs? Sin and disobedience creep back in. Obedience is NOT the same as love. Love produces obedience. Thus, it becomes a great barometer of how we are walking with God.... and we are not walking well, either individually or corporately.

Now this should concern us greatly. First, we have little love to share with others, so few are drawn to come to know Jesus. But more importantly in a one on one basis, our lack of feeling loved by God leads to sin and sin hardens our hearts and erodes what faith we do possess.

I am going to stop here in my summary and let you mull over these words. My next post will explain what God showed me is the reason why this occurs and how to correct it so that we never stray off, and abide in.His love. For when we do that, obedience and love for others will flow out from us as we are changed more and more into His image.

What God has for us all is mind blowing. In my next post, I hope to share the HOW of getting back to entering into God’s for us and then STAY there. I pray that if these words are hitting that sweet spot in your heart, if you know others who have been struggling with keeping their heads above water spiritually, ask them to join us.

Blessings to all,

Gids

I disagree. Our main objective is to not just be light bearers over being saved. Salvation is our main objective. A person can be a light bearer and point others to Jesus, but if they are not saved themselves (like a prosperity preacher, etc.) then they are not doing anyone a true service. While God can use prosperity preachers to lead a person to Christ, that person cannot follow such an individual and his prosperity gospel message. They would be lost if they did that, even if they pointed others to Christ and taught some of his good ways. Not everyone preaches the same Jesus.

The acid test is love, but it is love as defined in the Bible.
Jesus defines this love by saying..... "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

That's the acid test!
Keeping God's commandments.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

Side Note:

When I say to keep God's commandments, I am not talking about the 613 laws of Moses as a whole (i.e. the Old Contract, or the Old Testament Laws contractually speaking). I am talking about the commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers in the New Covenant. The ceremonial laws (like the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws), and judicial laws of the OT are no longer in effect. Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

Obeying God's commands includes believing in Jesus and His grace for salvation, repentance (seeking forgiveness with the Lord), and the Sanctification process (Holy living).
 
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fhansen

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The acid test is love, but it is love as defined in the Bible.
Jesus defines this love by saying..... "If you love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

That's the acid test!
Keeping God's commandments.

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).
I think this sounds a bit confusing, from the New Covenant perspective. John 14:15 is generally translated, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". Love, by its nature, fulfills the Law (Rom 13). Love is the key to obedience, not the other way around. Obedience cannot produce love IOW, while genuine love produces true obedience. Solomon was right in Eccl 12:13; Jesus just shows us how-and gives us the grace, the Spirit-to fulfill it, the right way. Just a point of clarification for myself.

Without doubt breaking the commandments reveals a lack of love for God and neighbor but keeping them is no proof of that love either, which is what Paul was getting at in Phil 3, where he claims he was faultless as a Pharisee at keeping the law. Anyway, just a point. In my mind the acid test is keeping the Greatest Commandments; if we think about it there's really no wiggle room there so long as we understand and don't abuse the term "love".

Either way, I think we must understand that there will be struggle with sin in this life, even as we must resolve not to commit it. We must 'go, and sin no more' while recognizing our continuous need for help in accomplishing that. For myself the real problem begins when we remove any real acid test at all by insisting that righteousness is merely imputed, that no obligation for internal authentic righteousness, "the righteousness that comes from God" (Phil 3:9), is required for salvation. And this righteousness is defined by love. And it's a "must". It's the real acid test, by which we'll be judged.
 
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SteveIndy

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The 1913 dictionary says:
n. 1. the doctrine that all violence is unjustifiable.
2. The belief that all international disputes can be settled by arbitration.

Source:
pacifism | Definition of pacifism by Webster's Online Dictionary

Webster's Dictionary:

1. Opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes specifically. Refusal to bear arms on moral or religious grounds; For Quakers pacifism is a major tenet of belief.

2: An attitude or policy of nonresistance; Efforts toward pacifism and civil rights.

Source:
Definition of PACIFISM

As for war or violence:

I believe God in the Old Testament had used His people (Israel) to go to war against enemy nations. I also believe Jesus will return and will destroy all nations that will come up against Him. I also believe that while God does not want the bride of Christ (Christians) to go to war under the New Covenant, God does use the police and military for His greater plan for good. Romans 13 comes to mind. For unbelieving governments can be God's ministers of righteousness to execute justice on those who do evil. This does not mean they are saved, but that they are an arm of justice for God. For God even used an enemy nation (Assyria) as a rod of correction against His own people (Israel) because they were being wicked.

Popular Christianity of America (and the world) is not the Christianity of Christ or of the first 300 years of Church history. But, since Constantine's merging of Church and state and Augustines heretical doctrine of Just War to bolster the ranks of an increasingly Christianized Roman army Christians have adopted an attitude of killing that never existed in the first 300 years as modeled by Christ.

With the mindset of violence and murder that has been ingrained, for many hundreds of year, in the hearts of modern Christians, the New Testament cannot be read without finding justification for all of their evil deeds. The truth is that there is no justification for violence, war, or condemning the enemies of society unless that truth is filtered through the warped idea that Christ has changed His mind on the issue of loving our enemies.

The answer to the problem is proper exegesis. The most common problem is that we read into the New Testament things that are not there. You cannot use the O.T. to interpret the N.T., it is the other way around. Today, a favorite method is to deliberately neglect the nonviolent nature of Jesus and of the love that He taught to His disciples as being the divine way of the Kingdom. Many Christian Churches try to explain away Jesus’ teaching of nonviolent love by demanding that He did not really mean what He said, others just ignore it or replace it with some philosophical blather which they then raise to an equivalent status to the teaching of Jesus, e.g.,

“It is a God-given natural right to kill those who are trying to kill you. Killing other human beings is a tragic necessity in the present state of a fallen humanity with its immoral societies. To do what is natural or necessary cannot be sinful when done in good Christian conscience!”

With this strategy, Jesus’ teaching does not even get a hearing, except to be pridefully dismissed as simplistic or stupid. He is allowed to be considered only after the decision to kill has been well implanted and accepted. To present the Bad News of the gun you must first put down the Good News of the Gospel.

But, getting back to exegesis, what should be our proper view of the O.T.?

Here are some N.T. Scriptures that show us how to view the Old Testament.

In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word . . . .” Hebrews 1:1-3.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.’” Hebrews 8:7-9

“Therefore, He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance, because a death has taken place for redemption from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. Where a will (i.e. last will and testament) exists, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will is valid only when people die, since it is never in effect while the one who made it is living.” Hebrews 9:15-17.

Jesus says five times, “You have heard that it was said . . . .” “But I tell you . . . .” Matthew 5:27,28a; 31,32a; 33,34a; 38, 39a; 43, 44a. Where were these things “heard . . . said”? Of course, the answer is in the Old Testament Law of Moses, but with an authoritative move Jesus re-writes His will and closes the door on anyone wanting to use the old document to prove a point. With the declaration of “But I tell you . . .” He established Himself as the sole authority, maker of the will, and interpreter of everything that has come before Him. No other person has any right to overrule anything that has been spoken by Jesus or to build any other structure on the foundation of His sure words. When the Father’s Son speaks He leaves no room for presumption or creative thinking; His plain and simple words carry the weight of God the Father Himself; and the Father says, “Listen to Him.”

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” John 18:36.
Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: ‘If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:19-21.

There is no question that one side or the other of this argument is wrong, we cannot have it both ways. We can follow the broad way of conformity, but the “way is narrow.” We can take the easy way with no controversy or conflict, but the “gate is difficult and strait.” We can place our bets with the fast and the strong, but the “meek will inherit the earth.” All the advantage is with the majority, but “very few will enter in.” We can appeal to the celebrities of the Reformation: Zwingli, Luther, and Calvin or we can search-out those who refused to defend themselves who held on tight to that scarlet thread weaving its way through blood, suffering, persecution, and loneliness, from Calvary to our doorstep and bids us come and die. Yes, one of us is wrong. If non-resistant Christians are wrong they have lost nothing by living a sacrificial life, if popular Christianity is wrong??????????. The first coming of our Lord was like a defenseless Lamb and it is that Lamb that we are to imitate while fulfilling His mission and not the Lion of His second coming.

All of your arguments for violence are a sinking ship and cannot hold water when seen properly. There are no N.T. arguments that will justify killing, judging, or condemning your enemy.
 
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Gideons300

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Ok, just one or two last posts on this subject for now to try to clarify exactly what the message I have been asked to share is. I will continue posting the message I have been asked to share in other threads. If you get to know me, you will realize I am like a broken record. :)

I do have a request however. I fully realize that this may seem ‘new’ to many of you. And thus it takes time to fully absorb. If you disagree, and initially, many probably will, would it be possible to start your own thread on why you think what I share is error. However, if my words are bearing witness with your spirit, and yet you have sincere questions that need to be andwered, I will be more than happy to try to answer them to the best of my ability. Is that fair? Thanks in advance.

Ok, picking up where we left off....

When God poured out His Spirit on the day of Pentecost, the love of God was poured out as well. The fact of God’s love for us was no more just words. God filled them with it to the point of overflowing. And for the next 70 years or so, the message of God’s love spread like wildfire. That was the early rain.

But we know that the rain dried up and a long hot dry summer entailed. This was God’s plan all along. But praise God, there is a final part to that plan. The church, sleepwalking and holding on to just the core beliefs, now filled with both wheat and tares, lacked the intimacy with God that He so longed for. Our witnessing efforts were now a duty, rather than a driving desire to see others come to our loving Heavenly Father. Our prayer closets resembled one way streets, devoid of the abiding Father/son and Father/daughter relationships He longed to have with us.

We somehow assumed that love and obedience were the same thing, so we concentrated on obedience, and ended up failing at both. We needed RAIN! And praise God, in these final days, the bride, woefully unprepared to meet her groom, was going to get it... the latter rain.

We look on the saints in the book of Acts with admiration, and wish our churches could be like that. We have tried to duplicate it, as if Christianity is a recipe we can mimic, but all we have done is succeed in displayed a Jesus to the world that either judges sin harshly, or winks at sin as if it is nothing. Disobedience rules. Love is as elusive as a flower in the desert.

But praise God, He is even now gathering the rain clouds. Saints are getting restless, wondering if this is all there is. That is God dealing with their hearts, letting them know there is more.

We have gone astray but do not know the way back. Multitudes of voices tell us this and that, but in the end, nothing changes and we get even more demoralized.

So how do we get back to our first love? It seems hopeless, and so we determine to just go to church, do the best we can and wait to either die or be raptured away. So how..... HOW.... do we get out of this mess? How do we rediscover the joy of our salvation? And yes.... that is a feeling to. LOL

Ok, here come the meat and potatoes. Grab a fork. More to come....

Blessings,

Gideon
 
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fhansen

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Popular Christianity of America (and the world) is not the Christianity of Christ or of the first 300 years of Church history. But, since Constantine's merging of Church and state and Augustines heretical doctrine of Just War to bolster the ranks of an increasingly Christianized Roman army Christians have adopted an attitude of killing that never existed in the first 300 years as modeled by Christ.

With the mindset of violence and murder that has been ingrained, for many hundreds of year, in the hearts of modern Christians, the New Testament cannot be read without finding justification for all of their evil deeds. The truth is that there is no justification for violence, war, or condemning the enemies of society unless that truth is filtered through the warped idea that Christ has changed His mind on the issue of loving our enemies.
It might be beneficial to read the church doctrine on Just War. Love dictates that the innocent are protected, that we have the right to defense.
 
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Gideons300

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Ok, continuing on. As I have stated, when I received my miraculous visitation twelves years ago, exhausted in my sin and failure, almost at the point of giving up, God appeared to me and led me to the HOW of which I speak. In those amazing years since, the change I have witnessed in my life is almost beyond description. My angry, judgmental spirit has been replaced with the fruits of patience and kindness. The love and acceptance I craved from God has been found, and just as He promised, as I have leaned to abide in Him, obedience has replaced sinfulness and joy has replaced the depression I had always walked under.

Have I arrived? Ha! Far from it. I have a long way to go on my journey. But I would also be lying if I did not also say that I simply am not the same person I once was. Not even close. And that happened not because I obeyed, but because His love shed abroad in my heart caused me to become obedient.

This is no instant perfection of which I speak. He takes us right where we are and begins to change us from glory to glory. We do not have to get ‘good enough’ to enter into this highway of holiness. Heck, that is why we need it, amen?

So when God appeared to me and shared with me the answer I so desperately needed, it did not entail fasting, or prayer, or doing for others, or going to church, or letting go and letting God. It was not hinted upon the passage of time. Our hearts simply needed to be hungry for more of Him and we needed to understand that our old sinful self loving nature was not cutting it. We needed new hearts.... like REAL new hearts!

He led me to Romans 6, a chapter I had almost had completely memorized. I knew the facts Paul laid out for us. I knew that we died when Christ died. Our old nature was dead. I also knew that when Christ rose from the dead, so did we. We have new natures. Most of us agree with this.

So what is the deal? Why, if these two facts are true, do we still act old and not new? Why do we still feel condemned and guilty when we are told there is no more condemnation? Why do the sins that we have always ruled over us if God says sin shall not have dominion over us? Why do we not feel the loved God has shed abroad in our hearts? Why are we not being changed into a His image even after, in my case, 38 years, of trying to please Him the best we can? Why are our prayer lives such a one sided lonely and unfulfilling place?

If the joy of the Lord is our strength, is it no wonder we are failing? Should we not, like David cry out to God to restore unto us the joy of our salvation? There is an answer, clean and clear. It is not hard to do, and your failure and hatred of that failure is a distinct advantage. How is that for good news? ☺️

Ok, this is it. The door. The answer He gave me. In Romans 6, after Paul tells us these facts, he then instructs us to DO something. He asks us to reckon ourselves dead to sin and alive unto Him. In other words, He instructs us to appropriate those truths as OUR truths. And when we do, we have finally entered our good fight of faith, and we have just hoisted our shields of faith up that keeps the devil at bay.

Whoa.

More to come....

Blessings,

Gids
 
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Gideons300

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It might be beneficial to read the church doctrine on Just War. Love dictates that the innocent are protected, that we have the right to defense.
I am going to be a bit firmer here. I have asked twice now that you guys take your discussion to another thread. I do not think it is asking too much as it is simply being respectful. Can you help me out here? Thanks.

Gids
 
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Gideons300

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Popular Christianity of America (and the world) is not the Christianity of Christ or of the first 300 years of Church history. But, since Constantine's merging of Church and state and Augustines heretical doctrine of Just War to bolster the ranks of an increasingly Christianized Roman army Christians have adopted an attitude of killing that never existed in the first 300 years as modeled by Christ.

With the mindset of violence and murder that has been ingrained, for many hundreds of year, in the hearts of modern Christians, the New Testament cannot be read without finding justification for all of their evil deeds. The truth is that there is no justification for violence, war, or condemning the enemies of society unless that truth is filtered through the warped idea that Christ has changed His mind on the issue of loving our enemies.

The answer to the problem is proper exegesis. The most common problem is that we read into the New Testament things that are not there. You cannot use the O.T. to interpret the N.T., it is the other way around. Today, a favorite method is to deliberately neglect the nonviolent nature of Jesus and of the love that He taught to His disciples as being the divine way of the Kingdom. Many Christian Churches try to explain away Jesus’ teaching of nonviolent love by demanding that He did not really mean what He said, others just ignore it or replace it with some philosophical blather which they then raise to an equivalent status to the teaching of Jesus, e.g.,

“It is a God-given natural right to kill those who are trying to kill you. Killing other human beings is a tragic necessity in the present state of a fallen humanity with its immoral societies. To do what is natural or necessary cannot be sinful when done in good Christian conscience!”

With this strategy, Jesus’ teaching does not even get a hearing, except to be pridefully dismissed as simplistic or stupid. He is allowed to be considered only after the decision to kill has been well implanted and accepted. To present the Bad News of the gun you must first put down the Good News of the Gospel.

But, getting back to exegesis, what should be our proper view of the O.T.?

Here are some N.T. Scriptures that show us how to view the Old Testament.

In the past, God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days, he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word . . . .” Hebrews 1:1-3.

For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, ‘Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.’” Hebrews 8:7-9

“Therefore, He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called might receive the promise of the eternal inheritance, because a death has taken place for redemption from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. Where a will (i.e. last will and testament) exists, the death of the one who made it must be established. For a will is valid only when people die, since it is never in effect while the one who made it is living.” Hebrews 9:15-17.

Jesus says five times, “You have heard that it was said . . . .” “But I tell you . . . .” Matthew 5:27,28a; 31,32a; 33,34a; 38, 39a; 43, 44a. Where were these things “heard . . . said”? Of course, the answer is in the Old Testament Law of Moses, but with an authoritative move Jesus re-writes His will and closes the door on anyone wanting to use the old document to prove a point. With the declaration of “But I tell you . . .” He established Himself as the sole authority, maker of the will, and interpreter of everything that has come before Him. No other person has any right to overrule anything that has been spoken by Jesus or to build any other structure on the foundation of His sure words. When the Father’s Son speaks He leaves no room for presumption or creative thinking; His plain and simple words carry the weight of God the Father Himself; and the Father says, “Listen to Him.”

Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jewish leaders. But now my kingdom is from another place.” John 18:36.
Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” says the Lord. On the contrary: ‘If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.’ Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. Romans 12:19-21.

There is no question that one side or the other of this argument is wrong, we cannot have it both ways. We can follow the broad way of conformity, but the “way is narrow.” We can take the easy way with no controversy or conflict, but the “gate is difficult and strait.” We can place our bets with the fast and the strong, but the “meek will inherit the earth.” All the advantage is with the majority, but “very few will enter in.” We can appeal to the celebrities of the Reformation: Zwingli, Luther, and Calvin or we can search-out those who refused to defend themselves who held on tight to that scarlet thread weaving its way through blood, suffering, persecution, and loneliness, from Calvary to our doorstep and bids us come and die. Yes, one of us is wrong. If non-resistant Christians are wrong they have lost nothing by living a sacrificial life, if popular Christianity is wrong??????????. The first coming of our Lord was like a defenseless Lamb and it is that Lamb that we are to imitate while fulfilling His mission and not the Lion of His second coming.

All of your arguments for violence are a sinking ship and cannot hold water when seen properly. There are no N.T. arguments that will justify killing, judging, or condemning your enemy.
Steve, I am going to make the same request from you. Thanks and God bless.

Gids
 
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fhansen

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I am going to be a bit firmer here. I have asked twice now that you guys take your discussion to another thread. I do not think it is asking too much as it is simply being respectful. Can you help me out here? Thanks.

Gids
My apologies-will do next time.
 
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I think this sounds a bit confusing, from the New Covenant perspective. John 14:15 is generally translated, "If you love me, you will keep my commandments". Love, by its nature, fulfills the Law (Rom 13). Love is the key to obedience, not the other way around. Obedience cannot produce love IOW, while genuine love produces true obedience. Solomon was right in Eccl 12:13; Jesus just shows us how-and gives us the grace, the Spirit-to fulfill it, the right way. Just a point of clarification for myself.

To believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So having faith in God's grace is a commandment. Repentance (or seeking forgiveness with the Lord) is a commandment (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To love God (that includes certain details) and to love your neighbor are commandments that are a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). To love your neighbor is the equivalent of the moral law like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc. (See Romans 13:8-10). To love your neighbor is to help the poor and beat up person on the side of the road (See Luke 10:29-37).

As for your statement that love fulfills the Law:

This is talking about the Moral Law and not the whole of the Old Covenant Law (like the 613 laws of Moses as a whole). This aspect of the Old Law is called the "righteousness of the Law" in Romans 8:3-4. Paul was not talking about the New Covenant commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.

Without doubt breaking the commandments reveals a lack of love for God and neighbor but keeping them is no proof of that love either, which is what Paul was getting at in Phil 3, where he claims he was faultless as a Pharisee at keeping the law.

No. Paul was blameless in touching the Law.

"...touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6).

We see that Paul gave us an account of when he was a Pharisee in trying to keep the Law in Romans 7:14-24 and he failed to keep it. He only touched the law and he did not fully take hold of it and obey it entirely. He did not have the power or ability to do so. Only by the power of God can a person obey His commands. Paul says put on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14). Lusts of the flesh is sin. Paul did not have Jesus before he was a Christ follower.

You said:
Anyway, just a point. In my mind the acid test is keeping the Greatest Commandments; if we think about it there's really no wiggle room there so long as we understand and don't abuse the term "love".

I think it involves proper doctrine that does not justify sin or evil that leads a believer to obey God righteously if that is their choice. This leads a person to properly love God and love others according to the greatest two commandments. A person can say they love God and love their neighbor and can even do these things according to how they see it. They may see loving God as praying in vain repetition or bowing down to statues. They may see loving their neighbor as standing out in front of abortion clinics and telling them not to have abortions. But are these things in the Bible? If a Christian holds to men's traditions, I suppose it does not really matter. But Jesus had a problem with man made traditions.

You said:
Either way, I think we must understand that there will be struggle with sin in this life, even as we must resolve not to commit it. We must 'go, and sin no more' while recognizing our continuous need for help in accomplishing that.
For myself the real problem begins when we remove any real acid test at all by insisting that righteousness is merely imputed, that no obligation for internal authentic righteousness, "the righteousness that comes from God" (Phil 3:9), is required for salvation.

There is no need to "go and sin no more" if one can just believe in Christ's righteousness for salvation on their behalf. Paul was talking about the whole of the Old Law or Law Alone without God's grace in Philippians 3:9. Paul was not advocating the necessity of good works that follows God's grace. He talks about the righteousness of God by faith. There are works of faith that play a part of the faith (See 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, James 2:17-18, and James 2:24).

You said:
And this righteousness is defined by love. And it's a "must". It's the real acid test, by which we'll be judged.

Well, that is odd. This is not really what we see at the Judgment. In Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus says to those who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin. Jesus did not say to depart from Him because they did not trust in His sacrifice alone while they downplayed sin in their life.
 
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Gideons300

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To believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So having faith in God's grace is a commandment. Repentance (or seeking forgiveness with the Lord) is a commandment (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To love God (that includes certain details) and to love your neighbor are commandments that are a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). To love your neighbor is the equivalent of the moral law like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc. (See Romans 13:8-10). To love your neighbor is to help the poor and beat up person on the side of the road (See Luke 10:29-37).

As for your statement that love fulfills the Law:

This is talking about the Moral Law and not the whole of the Old Covenant Law (like the 613 laws of Moses as a whole). This aspect of the Old Law is called the "righteousness of the Law" in Romans 8:3-4. Paul was not talking about the New Covenant commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.



No. Paul was saying he was faultless according to the Pharisee religion. It says he was blameless in touching the Law in this way.

"...touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6).

We see that Paul gave us an account of when he was a Pharisee in trying to keep the Law in Romans 7:14-24 and he failed to keep it. He only touched the law and he did not fully take hold of it and obey it entirely. He did not have the power of ability to do so. Only by the power of God can a person obey His commands. Paul says put on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14). Lusts of the flesh is sin. Paul did not have Jesus before he was a Christ follower.



I think it involves proper doctrine that does not justify sin or evil that leads a believer to obey God righteously if that is their choice. This leads a person to properly love God and love others according to the greatest two commandments. A person can say they love God and love their neighbor and can even do these things according to how they see it. They may see loving God as praying in vain repetition or bowing down to statues. They may see loving their neighbor as standing out in front of abortion clinics and telling them not to have abortions. But are these things in the Bible? If a Christian holds to men's traditions, I suppose it does not really matter. But Jesus had a problem with man made traditions.



There is no need to "go and sin no more" if one can just believe in Christ's righteousness for salvation on their behalf. Paul was talking about the whole of the Old Law or Law Alone without God's grace in Philippians 3:9. Paul was not advocating the necessity of good works that follows God's grace. He talks about the righteousness of God by faith. There are works of faith that play a part of the faith (See 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, James 2:17-18, and James 2:24).



Well, that is odd. This is not really what we see at the Judgment. In Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus says to those who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin. Jesus did not say to depart from Him because they did not trust in His sacrifice alone while they downplayed sin in their life.
 
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fhansen

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To believe in Jesus is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So having faith in God's grace is a commandment. Repentance (or seeking forgiveness with the Lord) is a commandment (Acts of the Apostles 17:30). To love God (that includes certain details) and to love your neighbor are commandments that are a part of inheriting eternal life (Luke 10:25-28). To love your neighbor is the equivalent of the moral law like do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, etc. (See Romans 13:8-10). To love your neighbor is to help the poor and beat up person on the side of the road (See Luke 10:29-37).

As for your statement that love fulfills the Law:

This is talking about the Moral Law and not the whole of the Old Covenant Law (like the 613 laws of Moses as a whole). This aspect of the Old Law is called the "righteousness of the Law" in Romans 8:3-4. Paul was not talking about the New Covenant commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.



No. Paul was blameless in touching the Law.

"...touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." (Philippians 3:6).

We see that Paul gave us an account of when he was a Pharisee in trying to keep the Law in Romans 7:14-24 and he failed to keep it. He only touched the law and he did not fully take hold of it and obey it entirely. He did not have the power or ability to do so. Only by the power of God can a person obey His commands. Paul says put on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh (Romans 13:14). Lusts of the flesh is sin. Paul did not have Jesus before he was a Christ follower.



I think it involves proper doctrine that does not justify sin or evil that leads a believer to obey God righteously if that is their choice. This leads a person to properly love God and love others according to the greatest two commandments. A person can say they love God and love their neighbor and can even do these things according to how they see it. They may see loving God as praying in vain repetition or bowing down to statues. They may see loving their neighbor as standing out in front of abortion clinics and telling them not to have abortions. But are these things in the Bible? If a Christian holds to men's traditions, I suppose it does not really matter. But Jesus had a problem with man made traditions.



There is no need to "go and sin no more" if one can just believe in Christ's righteousness for salvation on their behalf. Paul was talking about the whole of the Old Law or Law Alone without God's grace in Philippians 3:9. Paul was not advocating the necessity of good works that follows God's grace. He talks about the righteousness of God by faith. There are works of faith that play a part of the faith (See 1 Thessalonians 1:3, 2 Thessalonians 1:11, James 2:17-18, and James 2:24).



Well, that is odd. This is not really what we see at the Judgment. In Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus says to those who did wonderful works in his name to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or sin. Jesus did not say to depart from Him because they did not trust in His sacrifice alone while they downplayed sin in their life.
Matt 25:31-46 tells us we'll be judged on the works we've done "for the least of these". These are the works, of love, spoken of in Eph 2:10.

IOW, nothing that is done, no commandment that is obeyed, has any worth unless motivated by love. And that's why the Greatest Commandments are what they are. Otherwise we're still "under the Law".
 
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