What is "UT"? I'll explain once I know what that means.. (to help me with gauging the context of my speech).
Universal atonement, probably should have abbreviated UA, sorry only half awake today.
I'd like to see the scriptures you are referencing.
John 17:12 (refers to Judas)
PERDITION
per-dish'-un (apoleia, "ruin" or "loss," physical or eternal):
The word "perdition" occurs in the English Bible 8 times (
John 17:12;
Philippians 1:28;
2 Thessalonians 2:3;
1 Timothy 6:9;
Hebrews 10:39;
2 Peter 3:7;
Revelation 17:11,18). In each of these cases it denotes the final state of ruin and punishment which forms the opposite to salvation. The verb apolluein, from which the word is derived, has two meanings:
(1) to lose;
(2) to destroy.
Both of these pass over to the noun, so that apoleia comes to signify:
(1) loss;
(2) ruin, destruction.
The former occurs in
Matthew 26:8;
Mark 14:4, the latter in the passages cited above. Both meanings had been adopted into the religious terminology of the Scriptures as early as the Septuagint. "To be lost" in the religious sense may mean "to be missing" and "to be ruined," The former meaning attaches to it in the teaching of Jesus, who compares the lost sinner to the missing coin, the missing sheep, and makes him the object of a seeking activity (
Matthew 10:6;
15:24;
18:11;
Luke 15:4,6,8,24,32;
19:10). "To be lost" here signifies to have become estranged from God, to miss realizing the relations which man normally sustains toward Him. It is equivalent to what is theologically called "spiritual death." This conception of "loss" enters also into the description of the eschatological fate of the sinner as assigned in the judgment (
Luke 9:24;
17:33), which is a loss of life. The other meaning of "ruin" and "destruction" describes the same thing from a different point of view. Apoleia being the opposite of soteria, and soteria in its technical usage denoting the reclaiming from death unto life, apoleia also acquires the specific sense of such ruin and destruction as involves an eternal loss of life (
Philippians 1:28;
Hebrews 10:39). Perdition in this latter sense is equivalent to what theology calls "eternal death." When in
Revelation 17:8,11 it is predicated of "the beast," one of the forms of the world-power, this must be understood on the basis of the Old Testament prophetic representation according to which the coming judgment deals with powers rather than persons.
The Son of Perdition is a name given to Judas (
John 17:12) and to the Antichrist (
2 Thessalonians 2:3). This is the well-known Hebrew idiom by which a person typically embodying a certain trait or character or destiny is called the son of that thing. The name therefore represents Judas and the Antichrist (see MAN OF SIN) as most irrecoverably and completely devoted to the final apoleia.
Geerhardus Vos - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia (1915, James Orr General Editor)
The following is from an article by John Piper which connects Old Testament Scriptures concerning Judas with their fulfillment in the New:
3. God’s Role in the Murder of His Son
This brings us now to the third and final question — the most important one: Where was God when this happened? Or more precisely: What was God’s role or non-role in the most spectacular sin that ever happened — the murder of Jesus Christ?
To answer a question like that we should put our hands on our mouths and silence our philosophical speculations. Our opinions don’t count here. All that counts is what God himself has shown us in his word. And the first thing he shows us is that the details surrounding the death of Jesus are prophesied in God’s word hundreds of years before they happen.
The Scriptures prophesy that evil men will reject Jesus when he comes.
Matthew 21:42: “Jesus said to them [quoting
Psalm 118:22], ‘Have you never read in the Scriptures: “The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone; this was the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes”?’”
The Scriptures prophesy that Jesus must be hated.
In
John 15:25, Jesus quoted
Psalm 35:19 and said, “The word that is written in their Law must be fulfilled: ‘They hated me without a cause.’”
The Scriptures prophesy that the disciples would abandon Jesus.
In
Matthew 26:31, he quotes
Zechariah 13:7: “You will all fall away because of me this night. For it is written, ‘I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.’”
The Scriptures prophesy that Jesus will be pierced but none of his bones will be broken.
John quotes
Psalm 34:20 and
Zechariah 12:10 and says, “One of the soldiers pierced his side with a spear. . . . For these things took place that the Scripture might be fulfilled: ‘Not one of his bones will be broken.’ And again another Scripture says, ‘They will look on him whom they have pierced’” (
John 19:34–37).
The Scriptures prophesy that Jesus would be betrayed by a close friend for thirty pieces of silver.
In
John 13:18, Jesus cites
Psalm 41:9 and says, “I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’”
And in
Matthew 26:24, Jesus says, “The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed!”
And in
Matthew 27:9–10, it says, “Then was fulfilled what had been spoken by the prophet Jeremiah, saying, ‘And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him on whom a price had been set by some of the sons of Israel, and they gave them for the potter’s field, as the Lord directed me’” (
Jeremiah 19:1–13;
Zechariah 11:12–13).
And not only the Scriptures, but Jesus himself prophesies, down to the details, how he will be killed.
In
Mark 10:33–34, he says, “See, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and the scribes, and they will condemn him to death and deliver him over to the Gentiles. And they will mock him and spit on him, and flog him and kill him. And after three days he will rise.”
And on that last night, Jesus looked at Peter and said, “Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times” (
Matthew 26:34).
According to His Sovereign Will
From all these prophesies, we know that God foresaw, and did not prevent, and therefore included in his plan that his Son would be rejected, hated, abandoned, betrayed, denied, condemned, spit upon, flogged, mocked, pierced, and killed. All these are explicitly in God’s mind before they happen as things that he plans will happen to Jesus. These things did not just happen. They were foretold in God’s word. God knew they would happen and could have planned to stop them, but didn’t. So they happened according to his sovereign will.
And all of them were evil. They were sin. It is sin to reject, hate, abandon, betray, deny, condemn, spit upon, flog, mock, pierce, and kill the morally perfect, infinitely worthy, divine Son of God. And yet the Bible is explicit and clear that God himself planned these things. It is explicit not only in all the prophetic texts we have seen, but also in passages that say even more plainly that God brought these things to pass.
God Brought It to Pass
For example, in
Isaiah 53:6,
10, it says, “All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned — every one — to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. . . . It was the will of the Lord to crush him; he has put him to grief.” So behind the spitting and flogging and mocking and piercing is the invisible hand and plan of God.
And I say that carefully and with trembling. This truth is too big and too weighty and too shocking to be glib about or to be cocky about. I choose to say that the invisible hand and plan of God are behind these most spectacular sins in all the universe — more grievous and more spectacular than the fall of Satan or any others. The reason I use these very words is because the Bible says it in those very words.
The Hand and Plan of God
In
Acts 4:27–28, we have the clearest, most explicit statement about God’s hand and plan behind the horrific crucifixion of his Son.
Truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand (
cheir) and your plan (
boule) had predestined to take place.
Those are the two words I am using: the hand of God and the plan of God. It is a strange way of speaking — to say that God’s hand and plan have predestined something to happen. One does not ordinarily think of God’s “hand” predestining. How does a hand predestine? Here’s what I think it means: the hand of God ordinarily stands for God’s exerted power — not power in the abstract, but earthly, effective exertions of power. The point of combining it with “plan” is to say that it is not just a theoretical plan; it is plan that will be executed by God’s own hand.
This explains
Isaiah 53:10: “It was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief.” Or more literally, with the King James Version, “It pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief.” The Lord bruised him. Behind Herod and Pilate and the Gentiles and the people of Israel was Jesus’s own Father who loved him with an infinite love.
The Gospel: God at Work in Death
Why should this matter to you? It should matter because if God were not the main Actor in the death of Christ, then the death of Christ could not save us from our sins and we would perish in hell forever. The reason the death of Christ is the heart of the gospel — the heart of the good news — is God was doing it.
Romans 5:8: “God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” If you break God’s activity from the death of Jesus, you lose the gospel. This was God’s doing. It is the highest and deepest point of his love for sinners — his love for you.
“If you break God’s activity from the death of Jesus, you lose the gospel.”
Romans 8:3)
God condemned sin in Jesus’s flesh with our condemnation. So we are free.
- Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us. (Galatians 3:13)
God cursed Jesus with the curse that belonged on us. So we are free.
- For our sake [God] made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (2 Corinthians 5:21)
God imputed our sin to him, and now we go free in God’s righteousness.
- He was wounded for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities. (Isaiah 53:5)
God wounded him. God crushed him. For you and me. And we go free."
SOURCE 
hello MDC, I understand both points of view. Thing is, God can/has/does save His elect even despite...inferior, flawed, erroneous systematics of whatever Christian group they may be learning from at the given time. With enough time, and serious study in the Scriptures, they may come to a truer understanding of Scripture, or Calvinism. I am with you in believing the doctrines of grace are the truest expression of the gospel according to Scripture. At the same time, because monergistic regeneration is the work of God alone, the extent of what follows so far as knowledge and metal ascension to propositions, well God knows, and I think it is real basic, so basic a child can understand. I confess to having come from years and years of Wesleyan doctrines drilled into my conscience, and by the sovereign grace and mercies of God, became a convinced Calvinist after a book's worth of details that led up to the moment.
