The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
Your wrong again, the preachers preached by the spirit, the word of God came to the preachers and God spoke through the prophets. So again it was a God doing the work and preaching in creation and in the hearts of man and in the preachers.

I'm glad you've now admitted you were wrong about God being the preacher in Rom 10:14. It is quite clearly referring to human-to-human preachers as the next verse make clear. And as Jason rightly points out they were preaching the gospel, God's word about Christ.

That is clearly the "word that is near you" in Rom 10:8, "the word of faith that we preach". Not as you try to make it say - Christ in people's hearts even in the absence of the gospel or in OT times.


And I did provide quotes from authors who some of them did speak of Romans 10 in similar thinking as I have, go read them again. This was known way back in those days and after that as well. The quotes I gave do mention Romans 10 and connected to Moses in Deut 30!and they tie this in with the verses about the Light that lighteth every man and the seed as shown in the sower parable as I have done also.

If you read my words carefully you will see that I spoke off this word in the heart , Christ, the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world and the seed sown as a common theme. Many of the quotes I gave do this also. I don’t say that God preached in the heart by Romans 10 only. But I speak of many of His means in doing this using many scriptures.

I took another look at the quotes you provided. Not one of them said that God was the preacher in Rom 10:14, which is what I asked you to provide.

But I did notice something which I didn't spot before. All 3 of your quotations are from Robert Barclay a prominent Quaker in the 1600s. Now Quakers are very unorthodox in their beliefs, rejecting that any form of preaching or clergy, instead saying God teaches people directly by an "Inner Light". This seems to be very close to your own views, so I must ask you, are you a Quaker? It would explain a lot if you are.

Also, you seem to think that if some of the men you read don’t see something then it must not be right. Imagine how the early reformers might have felt if they started to see things about faith and doctrine that the Catholic Church had not seen for a long time. They must have heard similar arguments that you give and of other men who may have accused them of not being orthodox or in the understanding of thousands of priest. But the hundreds of thousands of priest or more were wrong in thier understsnding of certain basic doctrines. As the reformers spoke of.

Yes, Reformers were unorthodox in the eyes of Catholics. Just as your views are unorthodox to mainstream Christianity. The difference between you and the Reformers however is they were right, whereas you are wrong.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
The wird used in the KJV is “preacher” the word used in Greek is “κηρύσσω“ G2784 is used. “of uncertain affinity; to herald (as a public crier), especially divine truth (the gospel):--preacher(-er), proclaim, publih“
Mother versions use the word “preacher” also not all but some do

Romans 10:14 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
14 But how are men to call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher“

Romans 10:14 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
14 ..,And how will they hear without a preacher”

Etc

It seems your fighting against your own translators.

Do you not visit the link I posted?

Textus Receptus (Beza 1598)
πως ουν επικαλεσονται εις ον ουκ επιστευσαν πως δε πιστευσουσιν ου ουκ ηκουσαν πως δε ακουσουσιν χωρις κηρυσσοντος

The word used is κηρυσσοντος, not κηρύσσω as you claim.


And no translation should put a noun if the original word in the Greek is a verb.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I'm glad you've now admitted you were wrong about God being the preacher in Rom 10:14. It is quite clearly referring to human-to-human preachers as the next verse make clear. And as Jason rightly points out they were preaching the gospel, God's word about Christ.

That is clearly the "word that is near you" in Rom 10:8, "the word of faith that we preach". Not as you try to make it say - Christ in people's hearts even in the absence of the gospel or in OT times

No I was not wrong.

First of all, your trying to create s straw man argument. I wasn’t talking specifically about the word “preacher” which is what the word is as many commentators and bible versions use besides the KJV. I was talking about the word that is nigh or close to all. This is Where Christ in them speaks or preached his word and gives life since the beginning. This is “Christ in you the hope of glory”, the great mystery that was his from ages and that all men can come into. This is the mystery and life in Christ Jesus.

I also referred to Deuteronomy 30 which is so far unanswered by you and a strong rebuke to your words in this thread. You simply cannot answer it so you rush to your ancient teachers and commentaries to try to find an answer . But, because the few you read don’t see it you assume it’s not there . And you appeal to the ”few” commentators as your proof against the scripture there. But Paul reveals the mystery there to those who have ears to hear. It is there in his words.

Some might ask, “how shall men call on him whom they have not heard?” This is a question? Not a declaration here , just as the QUESTION how shall they hear without a preacher? Is a question also. And how shall they preach except they be sent? These are all QUESTION here . Paul assumes the natural questions to the fact that “whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. Some might say but “what if they have not heard ? What if they are in the most remote parts of the world without scripture? What if they don’t have a preacher?” Paul is showing that God did not leave himself without witness but He is the great divine preacher he preached on the hearts of all by Christ and the word is close to all of them. He also preached through the preachers and prophets. The word of God came unto them first before they preached. How could they preach any other way? Faith comes by hearing that witness in the heart. Not by just reading scripture as the Pharisees did.

This aspect of the gospel, the good news is connected to a two fold aspect the work of “Jesus Christ” on the cross who died and was buried and rise again. This is the history of the Word made flesh and dwelling among us and the gospel revealed to all. But also we read of the power of the gospel , this is the life that comes inwardly us.zthis is connected to Christ in you the hope of glory . This refers to the “hope” of the gospel. This speaks of “Christ Jesus” and his work in the heart even before he came to the earth and until this present day. The gospel is also declaring the righteousness of God that was witnessed to in the Old Testament.

We read these things here he who has ears to hear let him hear, I realize this mystery may only been seen by some, I selected key words hear to see

2 Corinthians 4:3-7. "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: 4. In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 5. For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake. 6. For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.”

Colossians 1:23-29. "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; 25. Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28. Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29. Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.”

Hebrews 11:1. Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.”

Romans 3:21-26 KJV “But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Romans 5:18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
I took another look at the quotes you provided. Not one of them said that God was the preacher in Rom 10:14, which is what I asked you to provide

Yes they mention Romans 10 in connection to The True Light which lighteth every man and the seed sown. This would be the way God preached or witnesses or speaks or shines inwardly to all.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
But I did notice something which I didn't spot before. All 3 of your quotations are from Robert Barclay a prominent Quaker in the 1600s. Now Quakers are very unorthodox in their beliefs, rejecting that any form of preaching or clergy, instead saying God teaches people directly by an "Inner Light". This seems to be very close to your own views, so I must ask you, are you a Quaker? It would explain a lot if you are..
No I am not a Quaker. I agree with some things they write about but not all just as I agree with some things Luther says but not all or some things many others have said but not all.

I also quoted others besides Robert Barclay. The Quakers were much closer in some areas than many in this aspect. His book is an interesting book I found he touches in some things rarely spoken of.

As far as I know the Quaker's did not reject preaching, or teaching or prophesying etc. They did it often. But they taught from thier understanding of the inward reality of being in Christ Jesus and waiting in him to lead. They did speak about Christ the True Light that lighteth every man without which no man can even know the things of God or preach or teach etc.

The primary rule as I have said in another place is to live and move in the Spirit of God in the new creation as we are led. The secondary rule would be the scriptures and the body of Christ.

By the way Jesus spoke of the light and Paul and John and others all through the bible. Go look up the word “light” in scripture it is an enlightening study.

I also quoted other writers besides Barclay.

It seems you cannot figure me out and it troubles you. You seem to want to fit me into some category or some group then you can neatly agree or reject and try to group me with some group of teachings. But I am not part of any man made religious forms or denominations. Paul warns of being carnal in creating sects and division in gathering under a man.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
And no translation should put a noun if the original word in the Greek is a verb.
you mean like these translators did?

Romans 10:14 KJV
"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"



Romans 10:14 Common English Bible (CEB)

"14 So how can they call on someone they don’t have faith in? And how can they have faith in someone they haven’t heard of? And how can they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
"14 How, then, can they call on him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about him? And how can they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
"14 But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 American Standard Version (ASV)
"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
"14 But how shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? a]">[a]and how shall they believe in him, of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
"14 How then shall they inwardly call him [How therefore shall they in-call him], into whom they have not believed? or how shall they believe to him, whom they have not heard? How shall they hear, without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 New Matthew Bible (NMB)
"14 But how can people call on him, on whom they have not believed? How can they believe on him, if they have not heard of him? How can they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 BRG Bible (BRG)
"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 New Matthew Bible (NMB)
"14 But how can people call on him, on whom they have not believed? How can they believe on him, if they have not heard of him? How can they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)
Israel Rejected the Message God Sent
14 So then, how can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one about whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?



Romans 10:14 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
14 But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?


etc etc etc.




 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Yes they mention Romans 10 in connection to The True Light which lighteth every man and the seed sown. This would be the way God preached or witnesses or speaks or shines inwardly to all.


"Secondly, That for this end God hath communicated and given unto every man a measure of the Light of his own Son, a measure of grace, or a measure of the Spirit, which the Scripture expresses by several names, as sometimes of "the seed of the kingdom" (Matt. 13:18-19); the "Light that makes all things manifest" (Eph. 5:13); the "Word of God" (Rom. 10:17)" (Robert Barclay 1678)

"That this saving Light and Seed, or a measure of it, is given to all, Christ telleth expressly in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13 from v. 18; Mark 4, and Luke 8:11), he saith That this "seed" sown in those several sorts of grounds is the "Word of the Kingdom," which the apostle calls the Word of faith (Rom. 10:8, James 1:21) the "implanted ingrafted Word, which is able to save the soul"; the words themselves declare that it is that, which is saving, in the nature of it, for in the good ground, it fructified abundantly."(Robert Barclay 1678)

Clement of Alexandria saith (lib. 2, Stromat.), "The divine Word hath cried, calling all, knowing well those that will not obey. And yet, because it is in our power either to obey or not to obey, that none may have a pretext of ignorance it hath made a righteous call and requireth but that which is according to the ability and strength of every one." The selfsame, in his Warning to the Gentiles: "For as" (saith he) "that heavenly ambassador of the Lord, the grace of God that brings salvation, hath appeared unto all, &c. This is the new song, coming, and manifestation of the Word which now shows itself in us, which was in the beginning and was first of all." And again, "Hear, therefore, ye that are afar off; hear ye who are near; the Word is hid from none, the Light is common to all and shineth to all. There is no darkness in the Word; let us hasten to salvation, to the new birth, that we, being many, may be gathered unto the one alone love." Ibid., he saith that "There is infused into all, but principally into those that are trained up in doctrine, a certain divine influence,." And again he speaketh concerning "the innate witness, worthy of belief, which of itself doth plainly choose that which is most honest." And again he saith, "That it is not impossible to come unto the Truth and lay hold of it, seeing it is most near to us, in our own houses, as the most wise Moses declareth, living in three parts of us: viz., in our hands, in our mouth, and in our heart. This," saith he, "is a most true badge of the Truth, which is also fulfilled in three things, namely in counsel, in action, in speaking." And again he saith also unto the unbelieving nations, "Receive Christ, receive Light, receive sight to the end thou mayest rightly know both God and man. The Word that hath enlightened us is more pleasant than gold, and the stone of great value." And again he saith, "Let us receive the Light that we may receive God; let us receive the Light that we may be the scholars of the Lord." And again he saith to those infidel nations, "The heavenly Spirit helpeth thee; resist and flee pleasure." Again (lib. Strom. 5) he saith, "God forbid that man be not a partaker of divine acquaintance, who in Genesis is said to be a partaker of inspiration." And (Paed. lib,. 1, cap. 3), "There is," saith he, "some lovely and some desirable thing in man which is called the in-breathing of God,." The same man (lib. Strom. 10) directeth men unto the Light and Water in themselves, who have the eye of the soul darkened or dimmed through evil upbringing and learning: let them enter in unto their own domestic Light, or unto the Light which is in their own house, unto the Truth which manifests accurately and clearly these things that have been written.

Justin Martyr, in his first apology, saith, "that the Word which was and is, is in all; even that very same Word which, through the prophets, foretold things to come."


The writer of the Call of all Nations, saith (lib. i, cap. 2), "We believe according to the same (viz. Scripture), and most religiously confess, that God was never wanting in care to the generality of men; who although he did lead by particular lessons, a people gathered to himself unto godliness, yet he withdrew from no nation of men the gifts of his own goodness, that they might be convinced that they had received the words of the prophets, and legal commands in services and testimonies of the first principles." Cap. 7, he saith, "That he believes that the help of grace hath been wholly withdrawn from no man." Lib. 2, cap. l, "Because, albeit salvation is far from sinners, yet there is nothing void of the presence and virtue of his salvation." Cap. 2, "But seeing none of that people over whom was set both the doctrines, were justified but through Grace by the Spirit of faith, who can question, but that they, who of whatsoever nation, in whatsoever times, could please God, were ordered by the Spirit of the Grace of God: which albeit in fore-time it was more sparing and hid, yet denied itself to no ages, being in virtue one, in quantity different, in counsel unchangeable, in operation multifarious."

Clement of Alexandria saith (Apol. ii., Strom. lib. i.), that "this wisdom or philosophy was necessary to the Gentiles, and was their schoolmaster to lead them unto Christ, by which of old the Greeks were justified."

"Nor do I think," saith Augustine, in his book of the City of God, lib. 18, cap. 47, "that the Jews dare affirm that none belonged unto God but the Israelites." Upon which place Ludovicus Vives saith, that "thus the Gentiles, not having a law, were a law unto themselves; and the light of so living is the gift of God, and proceeds from the Son; of whom it is written that he enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."

Augustine also testifies in his Confessions (lib. 7, cap. 9), that "he had read in the writings of the Platonists, though not in the very same words, yet that which by many and multiplied reasons did persuade, that 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, this was in the beginning with God, by which all things were made, and without which nothing was made that was made: in him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men: and the Light shined in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And, albeit the soul gives testimony concerning the Light, yet it is not the Light, but the Word of God; for God is the true Light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world'"; and so repeats to verse 14 of John 1, adding, "These things have I there read."

Yea, there is a book translated out of the Arabic, which gives an account of one Hai Eben Yokdan, who, without converse of man, living in an island alone, attained to such a profound knowledge of God, as to have immediate converse with him, and to affirm, "That the best and most certain knowledge of God, is not that which is attained by premises premised, and conclusions deduced, but that which is enjoyed by conjunction of the mind of man with the supreme intellect, after the mind is purified from its corruptions, and is separated from all bodily images, and is gathered into a profound

Seeing then it is by this inward Gift, Grace, and Light, that both those, that have the Gospel preached unto them, come to have Jesus brought forth in them, and to have the saving and sanctified use of all outward helps and advantages; and also by this same Light, that all may come to be saved; and that God calls, invites, and strives with all, in a day, and saveth many, to whom he hath not seen meet to convey this outward knowledge; therefore we, having the experience of the inward and powerful work of this Light in our hearts, even Jesus revealed in us, cannot cease to proclaim the day of the Lord, that it is arisen in it, crying out with the woman of Samaria; "Come and see one, that hath told me all that ever I have done: Is not this the Christ?" That others may come and feel the same in themselves, and may know, that little small thing that reproves them in their hearts, however they have despised it and neglected it, is nothing less than the Gospel preached in them; "Christ, the wisdom and power of God," being in and by that Seed seeking to save their souls.

Of this Light therefore Augustine speaks in his Confessions (lib. 11, cap. 9): "In this beginning, O God! thou madest the heavens and the earth, in thy Word, in thy Son, in thy virtue, in thy wisdom, wonderfully saying, and wonderfully doing. Who shall comprehend it? Who shall declare it? What is that which shineth in unto me, and smites my heart without hurt, at which I both tremble, and am inflamed? I tremble, in so far as I am unlike unto it; and I am inflamed in so far as I am like unto it? It is Wisdom, which shineth in unto me and dispelleth my cloud, which had again covered me, after I was departed from that darkness and 11 of my punishments." And again he saith (lib. x., cap. 27), "It is too late that I have loved thee, O thou beautifulness, so ancient, and so new, late have I loved thee, and behold thou wast within, and I was without, and there was seeking thee! thou didst call, thou didst cry, thou didst break my deafness, thou glancedst, thou didst shine, thou chasedst away my darkness."

Of this also our countryman, George Buchanan, speaketh thus in his book, De Jure Regni apud Scotos: "Truly I understand no other thing at present, than that Light, which is divinely infused into our souls; for when God formed man, he not only gave him eyes to his body, by which he might shun those things that are hurtful to him, and follow those things that are profitable. But also hath set before his mind, as it were, a certain Light, by which he may discern things that are vile from things that are honest. Some call this power nature, others the law of nature; I truly judge it to be divine, and am persuaded that nature and wisdom never say different things. Moreover God hath given us a compend of the law, which in few words comprehends the whole: to wit, that we should love him from our hearts, and our neighbours as ourselves. And of this law all the books of the Holy Scriptures, which pertain to the forming of manners, contain no other but an explication."

This is that universal, evangelical principle in and by which this salvation of Christ is exhibited to all men, both Jew and Gentile, Scythian and Barbarian, of whatsoever country or kindred he be. And therefore God hath raised up unto himself, in this our age, faithful witnesses and evangelists to preach again his everlasting Gospel, and to direct all, as well the high professors, who boast of the Law, and the Scriptures, and the outward knowledge of Christ, as the infidels and heathens that know not him that way, that they may all come to mind the Light in them, and know Christ in them, "the Just One, whom they have so long killed and made merry over, and he hath not resisted" (James 5:6), and give up their sins, iniquities, false faith, professions, and outside righteousness, to be crucified by the power of his cross in them, so as they may know Christ within to be the "hope of glory," and may come to walk in his Light and be saved, who is that "true Light that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
No I was not wrong.

First of all, your trying to create s straw man argument. I wasn’t talking specifically about the word “preacher” which is what the word is as many commentators and bible versions use besides the KJV. I was talking about the word that is nigh or close to all. This is Where Christ in them speaks or preached his word and gives life since the beginning. This is “Christ in you the hope of glory”, the great mystery that was his from ages and that all men can come into. This is the mystery and life in Christ Jesus.

That is not true. You have made it quite clear you believed the preacher in Rom 10:14 to be a "divine preacher":
The natural question would be to ask the question, "how shall they hear without a preacher? Notice the question mark. Then Paul answers "in vs 18 Have they not heard? yes verily...and then he quotes Psalm 19. He is showing that God is the divine preacher who has preached in the hearts of men by Christ the word of Christ, and even the word Paul preached came from the same word of faith that was spoken of, that word is Christ word in the heart.

Now that you have been proved wrong it is sad you have to tell lies rather than admit you made a mistake.


I also referred to Deuteronomy 30 which is so far unanswered by you and a strong rebuke to your words in this thread.

I have fully refuted your fallacious changing of the meaning of Deut 30. Go back and read it.

You simply cannot answer it so you rush to your ancient teachers and commentaries to try to find an answer . But, because the few you read don’t see it you assume it’s not there . And you appeal to the ”few” commentators as your proof against the scripture there. But Paul reveals the mystery there to those who have ears to hear. It is there in his words.

Firstly I have not just quoted commentaries from the great Christian theologians of the past, but I have included a good number of modern commentaries as well. The older ones are in the public domain so are far easier to find, whereas the modern ones are still under copyright so I cant quote as many.

But the point is there are no respected theologians who agree with your views. If yours is the correct interpretation you would expect there to at least some who agree. Or is it only you that has seen the light and the greatest and most respected Christian theologians have all got it wrong?

However you have shown yourself to be a hypocrite in this matter. You have been only too willing to quote an old commentary when you think it supports your argument. However they consisted of little more than quotations from a crackpot Quaker, or disingenuously misrepresenting a respected theologian by clipping out sentences that disagreed with you - a shameful thing to do.

Some might ask, “how shall men call on him whom they have not heard?” This is a question? Not a declaration here , just as the QUESTION how shall they hear without a preacher? Is a question also. And how shall they preach except they be sent? These are all QUESTION here . Paul assumes the natural questions to the fact that “whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved”. Some might say but “what if they have not heard ? What if they are in the most remote parts of the world without scripture? What if they don’t have a preacher?” Paul is showing that God did not leave himself without witness but He is the great divine preacher he preached on the hearts of all by Christ and the word is close to all of them. He also preached through the preachers and prophets. The word of God came unto them first before they preached. How could they preach any other way? Faith comes by hearing that witness in the heart. Not by just reading scripture as the Pharisees did.

You have completely failed to understand the plain meaning of Rom 10:14. Paul is not asking how people who have never heard the gospel can be saved. That idea is completely alien to the context.

The 'they' in Rom 10:14 are the people referred to in the previous verse, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Paul then asks a series of rhetorical questions about them: How can they [the people in the previous verse] call on Jesus without first believing in him? How can they believe in him without hearing about him? How can they hear about him without someone preaching the gospel? The answer to those rhetorical questions is they can't. Nobody can believe in Jesus without someone preaching the gospel to them. Consequently Paul then highlights the importance of gospel preaching: "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

This is the interpretation by all respected theologians. Do you want me to post another 20+ commentaries on this verse that prove you wrong?

Your theory is completely alien to the context. You are making out the 'they' in Rom 10:14 are people who HAVEN'T heard the gospel when there is no mention of such people in the context. Instead you have eisegetically added your own question which you want Paul to answer in this verse. You are clearly twisting scripture here to try to make it support your heretical claim that people in remote parts of the world can be saved without hearing the gospel message, but rather by hearing an "inner voice".
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
It seems you cannot figure me out and it troubles you. You seem to want to fit me into some category or some group then you can neatly agree or reject and try to group me with some group of teachings. But I am not part of any man made religious forms or denominations. Paul warns of being carnal in creating sects and division in gathering under a man.

No I am certainly not troubled by you. It seems to me you are simply just another anonymous forum poster with erroneous unscriptural ideas that need correcting. There are quite a few on here.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
you mean like these translators did?

Romans 10:14 KJV
"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"



Romans 10:14 Common English Bible (CEB)

"14 So how can they call on someone they don’t have faith in? And how can they have faith in someone they haven’t heard of? And how can they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 Christian Standard Bible (CSB)
"14 How, then, can they call on him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about him? And how can they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 Amplified Bible, Classic Edition (AMPC)
"14 But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 American Standard Version (ASV)
"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 1599 Geneva Bible (GNV)
"14 But how shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? a]">[a]and how shall they believe in him, of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 Wycliffe Bible (WYC)
"14 How then shall they inwardly call him [How therefore shall they in-call him], into whom they have not believed? or how shall they believe to him, whom they have not heard? How shall they hear, without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 New Matthew Bible (NMB)
"14 But how can people call on him, on whom they have not believed? How can they believe on him, if they have not heard of him? How can they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 BRG Bible (BRG)
"14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?"


Romans 10:14 New Matthew Bible (NMB)
"14 But how can people call on him, on whom they have not believed? How can they believe on him, if they have not heard of him? How can they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 Evangelical Heritage Version (EHV)
Israel Rejected the Message God Sent
14 So then, how can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one about whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without a preacher"


Romans 10:14 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
14 How then shall they call on him, in whom they have not believed? Or how shall they believe him, of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear, without a preacher?



Romans 10:14 Holman Christian Standard Bible (HCSB)
14 But how can they call on Him they have not believed in? And how can they believe without hearing about Him? And how can they hear without a preacher?


etc etc etc.

Were you not aware that many of those versions you quoted are not new translations but derivatives of other versions, notably the KJV?

The ASV, Amplified, & BRG are all derivatives of KJV. The New Matthew and Geneva are a derivatives of the Tyndale bible, which made up to 90% of the KJV. CSB is a derivative of Holman. The Wycliffe and Douay-Rheims is not even a translation from the Greek, but from the Latin Vulgate.

So there are significantly less than you make out.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
"Secondly, That for this end God hath communicated and given unto every man a measure of the Light of his own Son, a measure of grace, or a measure of the Spirit, which the Scripture expresses by several names, as sometimes of "the seed of the kingdom" (Matt. 13:18-19); the "Light that makes all things manifest" (Eph. 5:13); the "Word of God" (Rom. 10:17)" (Robert Barclay 1678)

"That this saving Light and Seed, or a measure of it, is given to all, Christ telleth expressly in the parable of the sower (Matt. 13 from v. 18; Mark 4, and Luke 8:11), he saith That this "seed" sown in those several sorts of grounds is the "Word of the Kingdom," which the apostle calls the Word of faith (Rom. 10:8, James 1:21) the "implanted ingrafted Word, which is able to save the soul"; the words themselves declare that it is that, which is saving, in the nature of it, for in the good ground, it fructified abundantly."(Robert Barclay 1678)

Clement of Alexandria saith (lib. 2, Stromat.), "The divine Word hath cried, calling all, knowing well those that will not obey. And yet, because it is in our power either to obey or not to obey, that none may have a pretext of ignorance it hath made a righteous call and requireth but that which is according to the ability and strength of every one." The selfsame, in his Warning to the Gentiles: "For as" (saith he) "that heavenly ambassador of the Lord, the grace of God that brings salvation, hath appeared unto all, &c. This is the new song, coming, and manifestation of the Word which now shows itself in us, which was in the beginning and was first of all." And again, "Hear, therefore, ye that are afar off; hear ye who are near; the Word is hid from none, the Light is common to all and shineth to all. There is no darkness in the Word; let us hasten to salvation, to the new birth, that we, being many, may be gathered unto the one alone love." Ibid., he saith that "There is infused into all, but principally into those that are trained up in doctrine, a certain divine influence,." And again he speaketh concerning "the innate witness, worthy of belief, which of itself doth plainly choose that which is most honest." And again he saith, "That it is not impossible to come unto the Truth and lay hold of it, seeing it is most near to us, in our own houses, as the most wise Moses declareth, living in three parts of us: viz., in our hands, in our mouth, and in our heart. This," saith he, "is a most true badge of the Truth, which is also fulfilled in three things, namely in counsel, in action, in speaking." And again he saith also unto the unbelieving nations, "Receive Christ, receive Light, receive sight to the end thou mayest rightly know both God and man. The Word that hath enlightened us is more pleasant than gold, and the stone of great value." And again he saith, "Let us receive the Light that we may receive God; let us receive the Light that we may be the scholars of the Lord." And again he saith to those infidel nations, "The heavenly Spirit helpeth thee; resist and flee pleasure." Again (lib. Strom. 5) he saith, "God forbid that man be not a partaker of divine acquaintance, who in Genesis is said to be a partaker of inspiration." And (Paed. lib,. 1, cap. 3), "There is," saith he, "some lovely and some desirable thing in man which is called the in-breathing of God,." The same man (lib. Strom. 10) directeth men unto the Light and Water in themselves, who have the eye of the soul darkened or dimmed through evil upbringing and learning: let them enter in unto their own domestic Light, or unto the Light which is in their own house, unto the Truth which manifests accurately and clearly these things that have been written.

Justin Martyr, in his first apology, saith, "that the Word which was and is, is in all; even that very same Word which, through the prophets, foretold things to come."


The writer of the Call of all Nations, saith (lib. i, cap. 2), "We believe according to the same (viz. Scripture), and most religiously confess, that God was never wanting in care to the generality of men; who although he did lead by particular lessons, a people gathered to himself unto godliness, yet he withdrew from no nation of men the gifts of his own goodness, that they might be convinced that they had received the words of the prophets, and legal commands in services and testimonies of the first principles." Cap. 7, he saith, "That he believes that the help of grace hath been wholly withdrawn from no man." Lib. 2, cap. l, "Because, albeit salvation is far from sinners, yet there is nothing void of the presence and virtue of his salvation." Cap. 2, "But seeing none of that people over whom was set both the doctrines, were justified but through Grace by the Spirit of faith, who can question, but that they, who of whatsoever nation, in whatsoever times, could please God, were ordered by the Spirit of the Grace of God: which albeit in fore-time it was more sparing and hid, yet denied itself to no ages, being in virtue one, in quantity different, in counsel unchangeable, in operation multifarious."

Clement of Alexandria saith (Apol. ii., Strom. lib. i.), that "this wisdom or philosophy was necessary to the Gentiles, and was their schoolmaster to lead them unto Christ, by which of old the Greeks were justified."

"Nor do I think," saith Augustine, in his book of the City of God, lib. 18, cap. 47, "that the Jews dare affirm that none belonged unto God but the Israelites." Upon which place Ludovicus Vives saith, that "thus the Gentiles, not having a law, were a law unto themselves; and the light of so living is the gift of God, and proceeds from the Son; of whom it is written that he enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."

Augustine also testifies in his Confessions (lib. 7, cap. 9), that "he had read in the writings of the Platonists, though not in the very same words, yet that which by many and multiplied reasons did persuade, that 'in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, this was in the beginning with God, by which all things were made, and without which nothing was made that was made: in him was Life, and the Life was the Light of men: and the Light shined in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it. And, albeit the soul gives testimony concerning the Light, yet it is not the Light, but the Word of God; for God is the true Light, which enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world'"; and so repeats to verse 14 of John 1, adding, "These things have I there read."

Yea, there is a book translated out of the Arabic, which gives an account of one Hai Eben Yokdan, who, without converse of man, living in an island alone, attained to such a profound knowledge of God, as to have immediate converse with him, and to affirm, "That the best and most certain knowledge of God, is not that which is attained by premises premised, and conclusions deduced, but that which is enjoyed by conjunction of the mind of man with the supreme intellect, after the mind is purified from its corruptions, and is separated from all bodily images, and is gathered into a profound

Seeing then it is by this inward Gift, Grace, and Light, that both those, that have the Gospel preached unto them, come to have Jesus brought forth in them, and to have the saving and sanctified use of all outward helps and advantages; and also by this same Light, that all may come to be saved; and that God calls, invites, and strives with all, in a day, and saveth many, to whom he hath not seen meet to convey this outward knowledge; therefore we, having the experience of the inward and powerful work of this Light in our hearts, even Jesus revealed in us, cannot cease to proclaim the day of the Lord, that it is arisen in it, crying out with the woman of Samaria; "Come and see one, that hath told me all that ever I have done: Is not this the Christ?" That others may come and feel the same in themselves, and may know, that little small thing that reproves them in their hearts, however they have despised it and neglected it, is nothing less than the Gospel preached in them; "Christ, the wisdom and power of God," being in and by that Seed seeking to save their souls.

Of this Light therefore Augustine speaks in his Confessions (lib. 11, cap. 9): "In this beginning, O God! thou madest the heavens and the earth, in thy Word, in thy Son, in thy virtue, in thy wisdom, wonderfully saying, and wonderfully doing. Who shall comprehend it? Who shall declare it? What is that which shineth in unto me, and smites my heart without hurt, at which I both tremble, and am inflamed? I tremble, in so far as I am unlike unto it; and I am inflamed in so far as I am like unto it? It is Wisdom, which shineth in unto me and dispelleth my cloud, which had again covered me, after I was departed from that darkness and 11 of my punishments." And again he saith (lib. x., cap. 27), "It is too late that I have loved thee, O thou beautifulness, so ancient, and so new, late have I loved thee, and behold thou wast within, and I was without, and there was seeking thee! thou didst call, thou didst cry, thou didst break my deafness, thou glancedst, thou didst shine, thou chasedst away my darkness."

Of this also our countryman, George Buchanan, speaketh thus in his book, De Jure Regni apud Scotos: "Truly I understand no other thing at present, than that Light, which is divinely infused into our souls; for when God formed man, he not only gave him eyes to his body, by which he might shun those things that are hurtful to him, and follow those things that are profitable. But also hath set before his mind, as it were, a certain Light, by which he may discern things that are vile from things that are honest. Some call this power nature, others the law of nature; I truly judge it to be divine, and am persuaded that nature and wisdom never say different things. Moreover God hath given us a compend of the law, which in few words comprehends the whole: to wit, that we should love him from our hearts, and our neighbours as ourselves. And of this law all the books of the Holy Scriptures, which pertain to the forming of manners, contain no other but an explication."

This is that universal, evangelical principle in and by which this salvation of Christ is exhibited to all men, both Jew and Gentile, Scythian and Barbarian, of whatsoever country or kindred he be. And therefore God hath raised up unto himself, in this our age, faithful witnesses and evangelists to preach again his everlasting Gospel, and to direct all, as well the high professors, who boast of the Law, and the Scriptures, and the outward knowledge of Christ, as the infidels and heathens that know not him that way, that they may all come to mind the Light in them, and know Christ in them, "the Just One, whom they have so long killed and made merry over, and he hath not resisted" (James 5:6), and give up their sins, iniquities, false faith, professions, and outside righteousness, to be crucified by the power of his cross in them, so as they may know Christ within to be the "hope of glory," and may come to walk in his Light and be saved, who is that "true Light that enlighteneth every man that cometh into the world."

Everything you have quoted here are the works of Robert Barclay, a Quaker, an unorthodox group who hold similar erroneous views to your own. The Quakers were/are known to sit in silence and meditate until they felt the 'Inner Light' teaching them something. ie the same as you with your extra-biblical revelations through feelings. They were rejected as heretics by the Church of England.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
That is not true. You have made it quite clear you believed the preacher in Rom 10:14 to be a "divine preacher":

Now that you have been proved wrong it is sad you have to tell lies rather than admit you made a mistake.




I have fully refuted your fallacious changing of the meaning of Deut 30. Go back and read it.



Firstly I have not just quoted commentaries from the great Christian theologians of the past, but I have included a good number of modern commentaries as well. The older ones are in the public domain so are far easier to find, whereas the modern ones are still under copyright so I cant quote as many.

But the point is there are no respected theologians who agree with your views. If yours is the correct interpretation you would expect there to at least some who agree. Or is it only you that has seen the light and the greatest and most respected Christian theologians have all got it wrong?

However you have shown yourself to be a hypocrite in this matter. You have been only too willing to quote an old commentary when you think it supports your argument. However they consisted of little more than quotations from a crackpot Quaker, or disingenuously misrepresenting a respected theologian by clipping out sentences that disagreed with you - a shameful thing to do.



You have completely failed to understand the plain meaning of Rom 10:14. Paul is not asking how people who have never heard the gospel can be saved. That idea is completely alien to the context.

The 'they' in Rom 10:14 are the people referred to in the previous verse, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Paul then asks a series of rhetorical questions about them: How can they [the people in the previous verse] call on Jesus without first believing in him? How can they believe in him without hearing about him? How can they hear about him without someone preaching the gospel? The answer to those rhetorical questions is they can't. Nobody can believe in Jesus without someone preaching the gospel to them. Consequently Paul then highlights the importance of gospel preaching: "How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!"

This is the interpretation by all respected theologians. Do you want me to post another 20+ commentaries on this verse that prove you wrong?

Your theory is completely alien to the context. You are making out the 'they' in Rom 10:14 are people who HAVEN'T heard the gospel when there is no mention of such people in the context. Instead you have eisegetically added your own question which you want Paul to answer in this verse. You are clearly twisting scripture here to try to make it support your heretical claim that people in remote parts of the world can be saved without hearing the gospel message, but rather by hearing an "inner voice".
Did you even read what I wrote. I was not denying that God preached or works first in preachers and that they are needed. I said God preached in creation in the hearts of all by Christ and his word, and he preaches through preachers he sends. God is the initiator and power behind believers actions.

But you said,

“The answer to those rhetorical questions is they can’t. Nobody can believe in Jesus without somebody preaching the gospel to them”

This is your error clearly seen by all. You would have eliminated all those who are saved from The beginning until the day of Pentecost and those who are in the most remote parts of the world who have no scripture or men to preach.

But Paul answers his question in Romans 10:18 and he says,

"18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."(Romans 10:18 KJV)

YES, they have heard and quotes Psalm 19 you are in great error here . As has now been shown.

I could give many other scriptures that show that God can reach all men no matter what time or place such as Acts 17 Romans 2:1415 etc.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,508
7,861
...
✟1,194,503.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
God cannot be separated from the Bible. So God is assumed as a part of Scripture and abiding by His Word. For His Word will not return void. The Spirit seeks to convict people of sin as per what the Word says. I cannot know anything about the faith unless I have a Bible. So the rule of faith and practice of that faith is the Bible. God is assumed in working with me in putting my faith in the Bible into practice because the Bible says that if we obey Him, the Lord Jesus and the Father will make their abode in us (John 14:23).

In the OT, and the early church: God communicated via both by audibly and by the Scriptures. Today, God communicates to us by His Word and He helps us to put our faith (from the Bible) into practice. This would not be some extra biblical revelation that we are putting into practice.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Now that you have been proved wrong it is sad you have to tell lies rather than admit you made a mistake....
I have fully refuted your fallacious changing of the meaning of Deut 30. Go back and read it.
I have not been proven wrong in what I have shown. And you have not refuted me in what I have said. It is plain to see if you have eyes to see.
 
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Were you not aware that many of those versions you quoted are not new translations but derivatives of other versions, notably the KJV?

The ASV, Amplified, & BRG are all derivatives of KJV. The New Matthew and Geneva are a derivatives of the Tyndale bible, which made up to 90% of the KJV. CSB is a derivative of Holman. The Wycliffe and Douay-Rheims is not even a translation from the Greek, but from the Latin Vulgate.

So there are significantly less than you make out.
lol, the sad thing is you simply cannot admit to even the smallest error, and you make big ones too. It is so simple many men were involved in these Bibles, and they all put the word "preacher" in them. You are so clearly corrected by this but you just wont admit anything, not even one error. That is the big problem here. Intellectual reasoning of men often thinks it has all the answers. But when a few strong scriptures about the true Light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world is used, they crumble into natural human reason to try and avoid the spiritual language and meanings and rationalize everything into a natural understanding.

This section applies today to many I believe.


Matthew 11:25
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes."
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Everything you have quoted here are the works of Robert Barclay, a Quaker, an unorthodox group who hold similar erroneous views to your own. The Quakers were/are known to sit in silence and meditate until they felt the 'Inner Light' teaching them something. ie the same as you with your extra-biblical revelations through feelings. They were rejected as heretics by the Church of England.
You are wrong again...

I quoted other men as well, if you read carefully. The point is that I quoted men that are in agreement with me on some of these matters and these things have been seen and written about for centuries by others. So your false claim that what i teach has never been seen before is false. Paul saw these things and Peter and John and many others in ancient times.

I believe I quoted Robert Barclay, Clement of Alexandria, Augustine, George Buchanan, Justin Martyr, and i could quote more...

Just making stuff up about me doesn't help your case. In fact not much can if you simply deny and seek to distort certain strong scriptures.

and Barclays arguments in this area are much closer than yours. There were men that argued with the men (called by some "Quakers") who said that Jesus Christ was not in believers but that he was far off in heaven and so could not be in believers. To which the Quakers would respond that if they did not have Jesus Christ in them they were reprobate. These sound like similar arguments to day and I'm sure they would use the same arguments today they met some of these early writers.

a section to consider

"O lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. 2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. 3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. 5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. 7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? 8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."(Psalm 139 1-8 KJV
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

LoveofTruth

Christ builds His church from within us
Jun 29, 2015
6,381
1,750
✟167,085.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Quakers were/are known to sit in silence and meditate until they felt the 'Inner Light' teaching them something.

Isaiah 40:31, 41:1 KJV
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Keep silence before me, O islands; and let the people renew their strength: let them come near; then let them speak: let us come near together to judgment."

1 Corinthians 14:28-31 KJV)
"28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God. 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted."

Romans 12:3-7 KJV
3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. 4 For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation:"(Romans 12;3-7 KJV)

John 4:23
"But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him."


1 Peter 4:7
"But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer."


John 16:13
"Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."
(Spoken to believers not just for apostles 1 Corintians 2 and 1 John 2:27 KJV)

Ecclesiastes 5
"Keep thy foot when thou goest to the house of God, and be more ready to hear, than to give the sacrifice of fools: for they consider not that they do evil. 2 Be not rash with thy mouth, and let not thine heart be hasty to utter any thing before God: for God is in heaven, and thou upon earth: therefore let thy words be few.
3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool's voice is known by multitude of words.
4 When thou vowest a vow unto God, defer not to pay it; for he hath no pleasure in fools: pay that which thou hast vowed.
5 Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay.
6 Suffer not thy mouth to cause thy flesh to sin; neither say thou before the angel, that it was an error: wherefore should God be angry at thy voice, and destroy the work of thine hands?

7 For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God."

Many are inwardly estranged and ravening from the Spirit of God and the pure leadings and empowering of His Spirit, and think to go forth in their own wills and minds and do works and worship that is in the flesh, who see no benefit at all for waiting on the Lord to be led by Him, in fact, they think it was the height of folly and confusion to even try to seek the Lord to lead, empower and give understanding and direction in a gathering of believers in this way. Instead, they rush ahead in their own wills and minds in fleshly forms denying the power and seek to speak in the words which mans wisdom teacheth. With a unending flow of excellency of speech and natural understandings, their human intellect is elevated to the highest heights and they glory in their so called unbiblical "Masters Degrees" and" "flattering titles". They present themselves before others in these roles. These things they see as their marks of thier approval and honour of men, but the opposite is true, they are marks of their error and dominion over men which they should not have (2 Cor 1:24 KJV).


But if we ask such men if they have ever heard the voice of the Lord they will scoff at you and deride you with contempt for even suggesting such a thing exist today. How sad for some of those who walk in the darkness and vanity of their mind alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them (Ephesians 4:17-22 KJV). How many among those that in darkness and those also who have some light are unaware that Christ as the head works effectually in every part of the body to make increase of the body unto the edifying of it self in love (Ephesians 4:15,16 KJV). How much stronger and secure in the Light and power of Christ would they come to understand if they let the Peace of God rule in them, as God governs in their hearts, in trembling and patience. If all those who profess Christ were to Let the Word of Christ dwell in them richly and from this leading they teach and admonish one another and build up one another (Colossians 3:15,16 KJV).they would come to know the reality of being led by the Spirit. But this can only happen as they meet the test of 2 Cor. 13:5KJV.

But, in this “form” that they call a "worship" and "church service" they feel that they have done a great deed and press this “form” upon all the faithful. Though, some grace is given to the babes and those who seek the Lord in truth in such places. These “forms” often hinder many who are draw away into the busy activity of religious vigour and the distracting confusion in such an order that can clutter the mind and heart of those who wait upon the Lord. In fact, many are not even taught to wait n the Lord for Him to lead in their meetings. Instead all is pre programed and on a tight time frame. The spirit can easily be quenched by such things and this hinders the body ministry in Christ. They do not follow the commands of the Lord to edify one another as they are led (1 Cor 14:26-38 KJV). Instead they are bound up in a man made programs, where most of the body is not on the "program", and neither I fear is the Lord in many places. He truly may be outside knocking and wanting to come into them and sup with them, and to participate with them. But they think all is well and they need nothing. They are rich and increased with goods and rich in their own opinion of themselves and their vast knowledge collected for centuries. Rich in their large man made edifices unbiblically called "churches", with their rituals and human led order of "service". All of which can be shown to be against the order of God for the church.

By Not waiting on the Lord for all things in leading, empowering and understanding many go forth in their own flesh carnal apprehension and do not acknowledge or wait on the Lord. But we read that God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure and to make us perfect unto every good work, working in us that which is well pleasing through Jesus Christ (Hebrews 13:20,21 KJV). This is the normal Christian life to those who are exercised in this walk in the order of God who seek to live in the rule of Christian life, which is to walk and live in the Spirit in the new creation in Christ Jesus and to be led therin. Jesus said without him we can do nothing (John 15). So why do men assume to try and do all things without him in their gatherings and lives and go about to establish their own works and efforts and in a feverish frenzy try to work hard to create a "service" where the show must go on??

But these things are not right and as God said to some of the old days, there is a similar warnings.


"11 To what purpose is the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the Lord: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats.
12 When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts?

13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.


14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.


15 And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood.


16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;

17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow.

18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."(Isaiah 1:11-18 KJV)

Matthew 7:15
"Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves."


Matthew 23:27
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness."


Isaiah 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:"


Matthew 23:14 KJV

"14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.'

1 Thessalonians 5:17
Pray without ceasing."

Ephesians 6:18
Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;"


1 Cor 2:1-14 KJV

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
But you said,

“The answer to those rhetorical questions is they can’t. Nobody can believe in Jesus without somebody preaching the gospel to them”

This is your error clearly seen by all. You would have eliminated all those who are saved from The beginning until the day of Pentecost and those who are in the most remote parts of the world who have no scripture or men to preach.

But Paul answers his question in Romans 10:18 and he says,

"18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world."(Romans 10:18 KJV)

YES, they have heard and quotes Psalm 19 you are in great error here . As has now been shown.


As I have previously explained to you, the OT saints were in a different dispensation and were not saved the same way as us. They did not have the gospel as we do today, so they could not look back to the Cross. Instead they looked forward to the coming Messiah as spoken of in the OT. And prior to the OT by trusting in God's verbal promises. Nor did they receive the Holy Spirit as we do, and so were not born of the Spirit. But the context of Rom 10 does not include OT saints, it is clearly referring to gospel preaching in the current dispensation. Note the plethora of future tenses in v13-15. So you are wrong to try and shoehorn them into the passage. And pagans and unbelievers in unevangelized parts of the world are not saved no matter how enlightened they feel. Without the gospel of Jesus Christ nobody can be saved as the plain reading of Rom 10 and many other verses indicate (Acts 4:12, Acts 11:14, Acts 16:14, John 3:16, John 5:24, Rom 1:18-23, etc). Hence the Great Commision and the need for missionaries.

The 'they' in verse 18 is also not OT saints or those in remote parts. They are not in the context here either. "They" are the people spoken of in v16 - Jews who have not obeyed the gospel call. Paul asks is there a reason for their disbelief, perhaps they didn't hear the message. "Have they not heard?", he asks. Yes they have heard the gospel he answers, "Yes verily, their [the gospel preachers] sound went into all the earth, and their words [the gospel message] unto the ends of the world [the known world at the time]." Despite hearing the gospel, they still refused to believe. Paul then goes on to explain why in verses 19-21.
 
Upvote 0

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
I couldn't find a single commentator that agrees with your bizarre view of Romans 10. You have quite clearly failed to grasp the true meaning of this passage, especially verses 14-15 & 18. Rather than relying on your own faulty logic, I suggest you study the following expositions of those verses by respected Christian theologians which will help you to understand the meaning better than you currently do.




Douglas Moo (1996)

Verse 14

14-15 Verse 14 and the first part of v. 15 contain a series o f four parallel rhetorical questions, each beginning with the interrogative "how." 8 By repeating the verb from the end of one question at the beginning of the next, Paul creates a connected chain of steps that must be followed if a person is to be saved (v. 13). Paul in v. 13 has asserted a universally applicable principle: that salvation is granted to all who call on the Lord. But people cannot call on the Lord if they do not believe in him. They cannot believe in him if they do not hear the word that proclaims Christ. And that word will not be heard unless someone preaches it. But a preacher is nothing more than a herald, a person entrusted by another with a message. Thus preaching, finally, cannot transpire unless someone sends the preachers.

Verse 18

18 Verse 17 has focused attention on the critical step of "hearing" in the sequence of steps leading to salvation. Paul now goes back to this step and asks "have they not heard?" Probably here again (as in vv. 14-15) Paul is speaking generally about all people but with special reference to Jews. Paul puts his question in a form that makes it legitimate to paraphrase it with an assertion: people have heard. In keeping with his concern throughout this paragraph and Rom. 9-11 generally, Paul substantiates this assertion with an appeal to Scripture: "Indeed," Paul says, they have heard, for Ps. 19:4 asserts that "their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words unto the ends of the inhabited world." Paul's use of this text raises two questions. First, what is Paul's purpose in using a passage that extols God's revelation in nature (as Ps. 19:1-6 does) in this context? The implied object of the verb "heard" in Paul's question must be "the word of Christ"; "their voice" and "their words" in the Psalm verse must then refer to the voices and words of Christian preachers (see vv. 14-16). Paul is not, then, simply using the text according to its original meaning. His application probably rests on a general analogy: as God's word of general revelation has been proclaimed all over the earth, so God's word of special revelation, in the gospel, has been spread all over the earth. His intention is not to interpret the verse of the Psalm, but to use its language, with the "echoes" of God's revelation that it awakes, to assert the universal preaching of the gospel. But this brings us to our second question: How could Paul assert, in A.D . 57, that the gospel has been proclaimed "to the whole earth"? Two implicit qualifications of Paul's language are frequently noted. First, as the word oikoumene in the second line of the quotation might suggest, Paul may be thinking in terms of the Roman Empire of his day rather than of the entire globe. Second, Paul's focus might be corporate rather than individualistic: he asserts not that the gospel has been preached to every person but to every nation, and especially to both Jews and Gentiles. Both these considerations may well be relevant. But perhaps it would be simpler to think that Paul engages in hyperbole, using the language of the Psalm to assert that very many people by the time Paul writes Romans have had opportunity to hear. It cannot be lack of opportunity, then, that explains why so few Jews have come to experience the salvation God offers in Christ.


Robert Haldane (1835)

Verse 14

He had said in the preceding verse, that whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. From this he urges the necessity of preaching the Gospel to all men; for when it is said that whosoever calls on Him shall be saved, it is implied that none shall be saved who do not call upon Him. What, then, is the consequence to be drawn from this? Is it not that the Gospel should with all speed be published over the whole world? If the Gentiles are to be partakers of Divine mercy, it is by seeking it from Jesus Christ, who has died that mercy might be extended to Jew and Gentile. Is it not by the Holy Ghost speaking to the heart of the Gentiles without the instrumentality of the word, that they are to be converted and saved. They must hear the word and call on the Lord.

Whoever is saved by Jesus Christ must call upon Him. How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? — If, in order to salvation, it be necessary to call on Christ, how can the Gentiles call on Him when they do not believe in Him? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? — This is impossible. In this state were the Gentile nations before the Gospel reached them. Hence the great importance of communicating to them the glad tidings of salvation. And how shall they hear without a preacher? — The Gospel was not to be immediately declared by the voice of God from heaven, or by the Holy Ghost speaking without a medium of communication, or by angels sent from heaven; it was to be carried over the world by men. How, then, according to this Divine constitution, could the nations of the earth hear the Gospel without a preacher? It is unnecessary to refute the opinion of those who hold that the Gospel cannot speak to men savingly in the Scriptures, and that it is never effectual without the living voice of a preacher. This is not the meaning of the Apostle. His doctrine is, that the Gospel must be communicated to the minds of men through the external instrumentality of the word, as well as by the internal agency of the Spirit.

Men are not only saved through Christ, but they are saved through the knowledge of Christ, communicated through the Gospel.

Verse 18

ButI say, Have they not heard? Yes, verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

The Gospel had now been everywhere preached, Colossians 1:23. The Apostle applies to this fact what is said in the nineteenth Psalm. That Psalm literally refers to the preaching of the great luminaries of heaven, the sun, moon, and stars; but typically it refers to the preaching of the word of God. The sun of the creation preaches to all nations the existence, the unity, the power, the wisdom, and the goodness of God. He speaks in a language all nations may understand. All nations, indeed, have departed from the doctrine thus preached; but this results from disaffection to the doctrine, and not from the obscurity of the language of the preacher. The Apostle tells us that all nations, even the most barbarous, are without excuse in their idolatry. God is revealed in His character as Creator in the works of His hands, and all men should know Him as such. The sun carries the intelligence of God’s perfections and existence to every nation under heaven, which are successively informed that there is an almighty, all-wise, and beneficent Being, the author of all things. In like manner, the Gospel of Christ preaches to all nations, and informs them of the glorious character of God, as manifested in the incarnation and death of His Son Jesus Christ, while it reveals His mercy concerning which the works of creation are silent.

Dr. Macknight supposes the question here asked, ‘Have they not heard?’ to be answered by the preaching of the works of creation, according to the words of the Psalm in their literal meaning. This is contrary to the whole train of the Apostle’s reasoning, who is speaking of the preaching of the Gospel. Even Calvin makes the preaching spoken of in that Psalm to refer to the ‘silent works of God’ in ancient times, and not in any sense to the preaching of the Apostles. But it is evident that the Apostle is not referring to the former, but to the present state of the Gentile nations. The words of the Psalmist are thus spiritually, as they always have been literally, fulfilled in the preaching of the silent works of God. The description in the nineteenth Psalm, of the sun in the firmament, has, as above noticed, a strict literal and primary meaning, but it is also typical of Him who is called the Sun of Righteousness, who by His word is the spiritual light of the world. Paul therefore quotes this description in the last sense, thus taking the spiritual meaning, which was ultimately intended. This suits his object, while he drops the literal, although also a just and acknowledged sense. It is not, then, as setting aside the literal application of such passages that the Apostles quote them in their spiritual import, nor in the way of accommodation, as is so often asserted, to the great disparagement both of the Apostles and the Scriptures, but as their ultimate and most extensive signification.


Adam Clarke (1832)

Verse 14

How then shall they call on him - As the apostle had laid so much stress on believing in order to salvation, and as this doctrine, without farther explanation, might be misunderstood, it was necessary to show how this faith was produced; and therefore he lays the whole doctrine down in a beautifully graduated order.

There can be no salvation without the Gospel: a dispensation of mercy and grace from God alone, here called, Romans 10:15, the Gospel of peace; glad tidings of good things.

This must be preached, proclaimed in the world for the obedience of faith.

None can effectually preach this unless he have a Divine mission; for how shall they preach except they be Sent, Romans 10:15. The matter must come from God; and the person who proclaims it must have both authority and unction from on high.

This Divinely-commissioned person must be heard: it is the duty of all, to whom this message of salvation is sent, to hear it with the deepest reverence and attention.

What is heard must be credited; for they who do not believe the Gospel as the record which God has given of his Son cannot be saved, Romans 10:14.

Those who believe must invoke God by Christ, which they cannot do unless they believe in him; and in this way alone they are to expect salvation. Professing to believe in Christ, without earnest, importunate prayer for salvation, can save no man. All these things the apostle lays down as essentially necessary; and they all follow from his grand proposition, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. But, says the apostle, How shall they Call upon him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they Believe in him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they Hear without a preacher? And how shall they Preach except they be sent? And with what message which can bring salvation can they be sent, but with the Gospel of Peace, the Glad Tidings Of Good Things. When, therefore, there is:


1st, a proper Message;

2ndly, a proper Messenger;

3rdly, the message Preached, proclaimed, or properly delivered by him;

4thly, the proclamation properly Heard and attentively considered by the people;

5thly, the message which they have heard, conscientiously Believed;

6thly, the name of the Lord Jesus, by whom alone this salvation is provided, most fervently Invoked; then,

7thly, salvation, or redemption from sin and misery, and the enjoyment of peace and happiness, will be the result of such calling, believing, hearing, preaching, sending, and message sent: - and thus the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith is guarded from abuse.

verse 18

But I say, have they not heard? - But to return to the objection: You say they have not all Believed; I ask: Have they not all Heard? Have not the means of salvation been placed within the reach of every Jew in Palestine, and within the reach of all those who sojourn in the different Gentile countries where we have preached the Gospel, as well to the Jews as to the Gentiles themselves? Yes: for we may say of the preaching of the Gospel what the psalmist has said ( Psalm 19:41) of the heavenly bodies: Their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. As the celestial luminaries have given testimony of the eternal power and Godhead of the Deity to the habitable world, the Gospel of Christ has borne testimony to his eternal goodness and mercy to all the land of Palestine, and to the whole Roman empire. There is not a part of the promised land in which these glad tidings have not been preached; and there is scarcely a place in the Roman empire in which the doctrine of Christ crucified has not been heard: if, therefore, the Jews have not believed, the fault is entirely their own; as God has amply furnished them with the means of faith and of salvation.

In Psalm 19:4, the psalmist has קום kauuam, their line, which the Septuagint, and the apostle who quotes from them, render φθογγος, sound; and hence some have thought that the word in the Psalm was originally קולם kolam, voice. But that קו kau is used for word or speech is sufficiently evident from Isaiah 28:10, line upon line, precept upon precept, etc., where קו is analogous to word or direction. It is very remarkable that these words of David, quoted by St. Paul, are mentioned in Sohar. Genes. fol. 9, where it is said: מלין אינון משיחא עבדי Abdey mashicha innun millin . "These words are the servants of the Messiah, and measure out both the things above and the things beneath." To this notion of them the apostle may refer in his use of them in this place, and to a Jew the application would be legitimate.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

swordsman1

Well-Known Member
May 3, 2015
3,940
1,064
✟252,447.00
Faith
Christian
Charles Hodge (1864)

Verse 14

How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and who shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? etc., etc. Paul considered it as involved in what he had already said, and especially in the predictions of the ancient prophets, that it was the will of God that all men should call upon him. This being the case, he argues to prove that it was his will that the gospel should be preached to all. As invocation implies faith, as faith implies knowledge, knowledge instruction, and instruction an instructor, so it is plain that if God would have all men to call upon him, he designed preachers to be sent to all, whose proclamation of mercy being heard, might be believed, and being believed, might lead men to call on him and be saved. This is agreeable to the prediction of Isaiah, who foretold that the advent of the preachers of the gospel should be hailed with great and universal joy. According to this, which is the common and most natural view of the passage, it is an argument founded on the principle, that if God wills the end, he wills also the means; if he would have the Gentiles saved, according to the predictions of his prophets, he would have the gospel preached to them. "Qui vult finem, vult etiam media. Deus vult ut homines invocent ipsum salutariter. Ergo vult ut credant. Ergo vult ut audiant. Ergo vult ut habeant praedicatores. Itaque praedicatores misit." — Bengel. Calvin's view of the object of the passage is the same, but his idea of the nature of the argument is very different. He supposes the apostle to reason thus. The Gentiles actually call upon God; but invocation implies faith, faith hearing, hearing preaching, and preaching a divine mission. If therefore, the Gentiles have actually received and obeyed the gospel, it is proof enough that God designed it to be sent to them. This interpretation is ingenious, and affords a good sense; but it is founded on an assumption which the Jew would be slow to admit, that the Gentile was an acceptable worshipper of God. If he admitted this, he admitted every thing and the argument becomes unnecessary. According to De Wette, Meyer, and others, the design of the apostle is to show the necessity of divine messengers in order to ground thereon a reproof of disobedience to that message. The whole context, however, shows, that he is not here assigning the reasons for the rejection of the Jews, but vindicating the propriety of preaching to the Gentiles. God had predicted that the Gentiles should be saved; he had provided a method of salvation adapted to all men; he had declared that whosoever called upon the name of the Lord should be saved; from which it follows that it is his will that they should hear of him whom they were required to invoke.

Verse 18

Paul's object in the whole context is to vindicate the propriety of extending the gospel call to all nations. This he had beautifully done in Romans 10:14, Romans 10:15, by showing that preaching was a necessary means of accomplishing the clearly revealed will of God, that men of all nations should participate in his grace. ‘True, indeed, as had been foretold, the merciful offers of the gospel were not universally accepted, Romans 10:16, but still faith cometh by hearing, and therefore the gospel should be widely preached, Romans 10:17. Well, has not this been done? has not the angel of mercy broke loose from his long confinement within the pale of the Jewish Church, and flown through the heavens with the proclamation of love?' Romans 10:18. This verse, therefore, is to be considered as a strong declaration that what Paul had proved ought to be done, had in fact been accomplished. The middle wall of partition had been broken down, the gospel of salvation, the religion of God, was free from its trammels, the offers of mercy were as wide and general as the proclamation of the heavens. This idea the apostle beautifully and appositely expresses in the sublime language of Psalms 19:1-14, "The heavens declare the glory of God, day unto day uttereth speech, there is no speech nor language where their voice is not heard, their line is gone through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world." The last verse contains the words used by the apostle. His object in using the words of the Psalmist was, no doubt, to convey more clearly and affectingly to the minds of his hearers the idea that the proclamation of the gospel was now as free from all national or ecclesiastical restrictions, as the instructions shed down upon all people by the heavens under which they dwell. Paul, of course, is not to be understood as quoting the Psalmist as though the ancient prophet was speaking of the gospel. He simply uses scriptural language to express his own ideas, as is done involuntarily almost by every preacher in every sermon.‹59› It is, however, nevertheless true, as Hengstenberg remarks in his Christology, that "The universal revelation of God in nature, was a providential prediction of the universal proclamation of the gospel. If the former was not fortuitous, but founded in the nature of God, so must the latter be. The manifestation of God in nature, is, for all his creatures to whom it is made, a pledge of their participation in the clearer and higher revelations."

It will be perceived that the apostle says, "Their sound has gone, etc.," where as in the 19th Psalm it is, "Their line is gone." Paul follows the Septuagint, which, instead of giving the literal sense of the Hebrew word, gives correctly its figurative meaning. The word signifies a line, then a musical chord, and then, metonymically, sound.


James Coffman (1983)

verse 14

Faith comes by hearing God's word ... This means that faith does not come directly from the Holy Spirit, but comes from that Spirit through his authorship of the holy scriptures, and in the sense of his being the living and causative agent in that word We mean that the Holy Spirit does not enter people's hearts to produce faith, that being the appointed function of the word of God, as revealed here. The Spirit enters our hearts "after we have believed" (Ephesians 1:13) and after we have become sons of God (Galatians 4:6) and in consequence thereof.

verse 18

But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily ... Paul had just said in Romans 10:16, "They did not all hearken," but this is not a contradiction. He meant there that they had not all obeyed, and here the meaning is that they certainly had heard.

Here we have another instance of Paul's using an Old Testament text out of context. Psalms 19:4 speaks of the universal knowledge of God through the revelation of nature; but here Paul applied the words to the worldwide preaching of the gospel. As Murray noted:

Since the gospel proclamation is now to all without distinction, it is proper to see the parallel between the universality of general revelation and the universalism of the gospel. The former is the pattern now followed in the sounding forth of the gospel to the uttermost parts of the earth. The application which Paul makes of Psalms 19:4 can thus be seen to be eloquent, not only of this parallel, but also of that which is implicit in the parallel, namely, the widespread diffusion of the gospel of grace.[17]

The ends of the earth ... translates a Greek expression which means literally, "the inhabited earth," as seen in the English Revised Version (1885) margin.


Paul Kretzmann (1921)

Verse 14

The apostle here explains what is implied in calling upon the Lord, v. 13… How is it possible for them to believe in Him of whom they have not heard, or, where they have not heard? Where the voice of Christ has not been heard in the Gospel, there faith is out of the question. And this leads to the next question: But how can they hear without one that preaches? If there is no one there to proclaim the Gospel, the hearing of the joyful message of salvation is manifestly not to be thought of. And finally: How can they preach the Gospel if they have not been sent? 1Co_1:17. If the Lord does not send preachers of the Gospel, if He does not make men's hearts willing to prepare for the office, if He does not issue His call through the medium of the congregation or the Church, how can the office be supplied? Thus Paul, by a series of convincing logical inferences, brings out his conclusion of the duty of preaching the Gospel to all people. "As invocation implies faith, as faith implies knowledge, knowledge instruction, and instruction an instructor, so it is plain that if God would have all men to call upon Him, He designed preachers to be sent to all, whose proclamation of mercy being heard, might be believed, and, being believed, might lead men to call on Him and be saved. "

Verse 18

But the apostle here himself raises an objection: But I say, have they not heard? It surely is not possible that the Gospel of Jesus Christ has never reached their ears. The apostle wants to correct the impression as though he had said too much, as though his supposition that all the Jews, even those outside of Palestine, had had a chance to hear the Gospel was wrong. But he immediately denies that such an excuse for the unbelief of the Jews may be asserted. Nay, rather: Into every land is gone forth their sound, and to the ends of the earth their words. The apostle here clothes his argument in the words of Psa_19:5. The sound of the Gospel, the voice of the preachers of the Gospel, has gone forth into all the world; even at the time when Paul was writing, it had been carried out into practically all parts of the great Roman Empire, especially to those countries where Jews were living. The name of Christ was known throughout the civilized world. And therefore the Jews cannot excuse their unbelief with the pretext that they had had no opportunity to hear the message of the Gospel.


Thomas Constable (2012)

Verse 14

Paul presented the logical sequence in a lost person"s coming to faith in Jesus Christ in reverse order here. Faith depends on knowledge of facts. Someone has to proclaim these facts for others to know about them. "A preacher" (NASB) unfortunately implies an ordained minister, but Paul meant "someone preaching" (NIV), someone proclaiming.

Verse 18

But perhaps it would be simpler to think that Paul engages in hyperbole, using the language of the Psalm to assert that very many people by the time Paul writes Romans have had opportunity to hear. It cannot be lack of opportunity, then, that explains why so few Jews have come to experience the salvation God offers in Christ. [Note: Moo, p667.]


Mark Dunagan (1999)

Verse 14

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

"They can"t call on someone in whom they haven"t trusted, and, they can"t trust someone they haven"t heard. It is worth stressing here that Paul didn"t believe in people coming to faith in Christ apart from proclamation. There has been a lot of talk about God striking people and directly operating on their heart apart from the Gospel but none of this is countenanced by the Bible writings." (McGuiggan p. 312) (Acts 16:30-33)

Since the offer of salvation is to "whosoever", there arises the necessity of proclaiming the gospel world-wide. (Matthew 28:19)

Verse 18

Romans 10:18 But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world.

"Did they not hear?-"To the grumpy Jew who would claim: "This is the first I"ve heard of it. We weren"t prepared for this:" Paul will reply: "You were told! You just didn"t hear."" (McGuiggan p. 314)

"Their sound.."-(Psalms 19:4) "As clearly and as universally as the creation speaks of God so the Old Testament told about what I"m now teaching, Paul claims. It was the Scriptures which first told of the gospel (Romans 1:2). It was from that source that Paul got righteousness by faith (3:21,4:3 and other places)." (McGuiggan p. 314)

Matthew Henry (1706)

Verse 14-15

How necessary it was that the gospel should be preached to the Gentiles, Romans 10:14,15. This was what the Jews were so angry with Paul for, that he was the apostle of the Gentiles, and preached the gospel to them. Now he shows how needful it was to bring them within the reach of the forementioned promise, an interest in which they should not envy to any of their fellow-creatures. (1.) They cannot call on him in whom they have not believed. Except they believe that he is God, they will not call upon him by prayer to what purpose should they? The grace of faith is absolutely necessary to the duty of prayer we cannot pray aright, nor pray to acceptation, without it. He that comes to God by prayer must believe, Hebrews 11:6. Till they believed the true God, they were calling upon idols, O Baal, hear us. (2.) They cannot believe in him of whom they have not heard. some way or other the divine revelation must be made known to us, before we can receive it and assent to it it is not born with us. In hearing is included reading, which is tantamount, and by which many are brought to believe (John 20:31): These things are written that you may believe. But hearing only is mentioned, as the more ordinary and natural way of receiving information. (3.) They cannot hear without a preacher how should they? Somebody must tell them what they are to believe.

Verse 18

The Gentiles have heard it (Romans 10:18): Have they not heard? Yes, more or less, they have either heard the gospel, or at least heard of it. Their sound went into all the earth not only a confused sound, but their words (more distinct and intelligible notices of these things) are gone unto the ends of the world. The commission which the apostles received runs thus: Go you into all the world--preach to every creature--disciple all nations and they did with indefatigable industry and wonderful success pursue that commission. See the extent of Paul's province, Romans 15:19. To this remote island of Britain, one of the utmost corners of the world, not only the sound, but the words, of the gospel came within a few years after Christ's ascension… In the expression here he plainly alludes to Psalm 19:4, which speaks of the notices which the visible works of God in the creation give to all the world of the power and Godhead of the Creator. As under the Old Testament God provided for the publishing of the work of creation by the sun, moon, and stars, so now for the publishing of the work of redemption to all the world by the preaching of gospel ministers, who are therefore called stars.


Charles Ellicott (1905)

(14-15) Thus there is a distinct order—belief, confession, invocation. But before either the last or the first of these steps is taken the gospel must be preached.

(18) Have they not heard?—The relations of hearing to belief suggest to the Apostle a possible excuse for the Jews, and the excuse he puts forward interrogatively himself: “But, I ask, did they (the Jews) not hear?” Yes, for the gospel was preached to them, as indeed to all mankind.
 
Upvote 0