No deal BREXIT looms

Goonie · Dec 24, 2018

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Perhaps you prefer the EUSSR?

It is not the 4th reich or eussr, the big clue being that it's members are free to leave.

DanishLutheran · Dec 24, 2018

Goonie said:
It is not the 4th reich or eussr, the big clue being that it's members are free to leave.

"Free to leave"....except the Fourth Reich's officials have gone on record as saying that they want it to be as difficult and punitive a process as possible to keep others from wanting to be free.

Yet another reason why an "EU military" is a bad idea, btw. The idea'll be sold on "humanitarian interventions" abroad, and before anyone notices what's happening, German tanks will be crossing the Polish border again, this time not because of Danzig, but because of Poland's lack of willingness to accept "cultural enrichment".

JazzHands · Dec 24, 2018

lesliedellow said:
You won’t be relishing it so much after the fact, if it happens.

I beg to differ and I'm pretty certain it will, sooner rather than later.

JazzHands · Dec 24, 2018

Goonie said:
It is not the 4th reich or eussr, the big clue being that it's members are free to leave.

In theory, yes, in practice, it's not so easy as Brexit is proving. Still, I remain optimistic.

SoldierOfTheKing · Dec 24, 2018

Goonie said:
It is not the 4th reich or eussr, the big clue being that it's members are free to leave.

That claim is currently being tested. Results are due in another three months.

lesliedellow · Dec 24, 2018

SoldierOfTheKing said:
That claim is currently being tested. Results are due in another three months.

Yep, the EU’s troops are massing at Calais, already to launch an invasion to prevent Britain leaving the EU. It reminds one of the Prague Spring in 1968. Eh, what?

Brexiteers kill me, they really do.

JazzHands · Dec 24, 2018

lesliedellow said:
Yep, the EU’s troops are massing at Calais, already to launch an invasion to prevent Britain leaving the EU. It reminds one of the Prague Spring in 1968. Eh, what?

Brexiteers kill me, they really do.

I'm not sure that's what he was implying, rather that hard line remainers were doing much of the EU's footwork for them using whatever Machiavellian tactics they can feasibly employ.

I'm not quite sure why Remoaners are so contemptuous of National sovereignty but it's academic anyway, I stopped humouring them some time ago.

mindlight · Dec 25, 2018

DanishLutheran said:
<

Ah yes. The go-to "Gotcha!"-quote of federalists trying to dress themselves in borrowed robes.
Anyone who thinks that Churchill meant anything like the current situation is quite honestly mistaken to a degree that it is not possible for me to specify here, because of the "tone policing" that frequently rules in forums like this.

That was not my point. The Dream of Europe was not an invention of the Nazis or indeed of Napoleon. It is older than that and does not have to be associated with imperial ambition.

mindlight · Dec 25, 2018

Francis Drake said:
It is a complete fallacy to claim that Europe was united under the Romans or Charlemagne. It's easy to confirm on Google that both those empires only covered certain parts of Europe.

But this is ancient history anyway, and of no relevance to the recent Nazi plans to create the European Union as we see fulfilled today.
Additionally, the EU today is modelled on a fascist state largely run for the benefit of multinational corporations, just as the Third Reich was run to the benefit of Germany's industrial corporations and cartels.

The Dream of Europe is older than the ambitions of Hitler or Napoloen. Most of what Europe does is quite practical and helpful e.g. food standards, easy movement between countries.

Hahaha, yet another load of fake news.
I have a large collection of Churchill books and on the table beside me is "Churchill, Walking with Destiny" written by Andrew Roberts in 2018.
I have only just finished reading and it is the very best by far. I can assure you that Churchill was adamant that Britain would never be a part of a United Europe!
Churchill supported the idea for the European nations alone, not Britain, and being a strong democrat, he was completely against it becoming a Federal State as that would destroy the democratic sovereignty of the individual countries.

People keep quoting Churchill for support of Britain's membership of the EU, but such nonsense could not be further from the truth. Churchill would have given his life to prevent his beloved country being betrayed into membership of the EU.

You said the Nazis invented the concept of a united Europe. That was a clearly false statement as the Churchill quote illustrates. It is irrelevant whether Churchill envisaged the UK as a part of that United States of Europe or not.

Britain clearly benefitted economically and in terms of standard of living from its membership. It is hard to see where all this fascist oppression you speak of is manifesting itself. Any visits from the Gestapo recently!!!??? Indeed for many in Europe who actually lived under regimes with a secret police like the Stasi your comments are ignorant and insulting. East Germany and much of Eastern Europe has experienced liberation by its membership of the European community. Not communist or Nazi oppression.

If we are about to engage on a new path independent of Europe it will require a leadership and purposefulness that is not merely reactionary to what people falsely perceived the EU to be but is also visionary as to what British independence can accomplish in the global context.

Who is that leader? Where is that going to come from?

mindlight · Dec 25, 2018

andy b said:
I actually voted to stay but because of the blatent abuse of the democratic process I not only want to leave but want the UK devolved and Ireland to have full sovereignty of itself

A united Ireland would actually solve a lot of problems but with the presence of so many Unionists in the Irish mix could create entirely new ones also.

I do not see abuse in Westminster but rather confusion and chaos. The politicians are divided on the way forward and no clear consensus seems possible.

mindlight · Dec 25, 2018

SoldierOfTheKing said:
Perhaps you prefer the EUSSR?

A European Union of Soviet Socialist Republics would of course require a number of things that are unlikely to happen soon. Countries getting rid of their constitutional monarchs for instance, adopting communist policies which have proven a disaster everywhere they have ever been tried and the domination of a militaristic and oppressive elite who rule by force of arms and the presence of a highly organised secret police. It would also require the nationalisation of various large companies.

Since the above list is obviously not true of the EU the comparison is null and void.

andy b · Dec 25, 2018

mindlight said:
A united Ireland would actually solve a lot of problems but with the presence of so many Unionists in the Irish mix could create entirely new ones also.

I do not see abuse in Westminster but rather confusion and chaos. The politicians are divided on the way forward and no clear consensus seems possible.

I now fully want us out a big part of that as i Igo the polar opposite of anything Tony Blair suggests.....plus I'm sick of being told what I can or cant say the European Union is one of the reasons behind the decline in the Christian faith ..the soone Germany realises that and opts out the better

mindlight · Dec 25, 2018

andy b said:
I now fully want us out a big part of that as i Igo the polar opposite of anything Tony Blair suggests.....plus I'm sick of being told what I can or cant say the European Union is one of the reasons behind the decline in the Christian faith ..the soone Germany realises that and opts out the better

Political correctness is a global disease and is unlikely to be cured by BREXIT alone. My American boss writes us all Happy Holidays Emails here in Germany. This is endemic to a business community that thinks inclusiveness and social harmony with diversity is a key to global business success. Local markets operate on a different logic I suppose.

DanishLutheran · Dec 25, 2018

lesliedellow said:
Yep, the EU’s troops are massing at Calais, already to launch an invasion to prevent Britain leaving the EU.

The Fourth Reich has no troops.....yet.
And that's all the response I'm going to give that strawman.

Tom 1 · Dec 25, 2018

Daniel C said:
What happens if there is a second referendum and this time remain wins? Do we need to hold a third referendum?because after all both sides have won a referendum at this point.What happens if leave wins,again?Do you think the opposition will finally accept the outcome?

I think the resistance caused by remain and the left wing in general has caused an extreme amount of damage to the country by roadblocking our exit and making the European politicians in the EU positions much stronger in the exit negotiations in these constant delay tactics with legal and parliamentary challenges. If the remain politicians/people can't bring themselves to cooperate with a democratic decision and prefer to weaken our negotiation options than of course things will be drawn out and disadvantaged for us.

What has the left done to roadblock the exit? Jeremy Corbin seems pretty noncommittal about the whole thing either way.
A reason for a second referendum would be the number of falsehoods peddled by the leave campaigners during the campaign. Leavers might still carry the vote, but at least they might do so having a better idea of the issues involved. I don’t think it’s unrealistic to assume that a fair percentage of leave voters didn’t have a clear understanding of the issues involved.
How representative a referendum of this sort really is of what is ultimately best for UK citizens is a bit dubious in any case, I think, letting the views a of a marginal majority disrupt the lives of so many people to (maybe) gain some eventual benefits for a minority kind of proves Churchill’s jaded notions about the nature of Western democracy.

lesliedellow · Dec 25, 2018

DanishLutheran said:
The Fourth Reich has no troops.....yet.
And that's all the response I'm going to give that strawman.

The “Forth Reich” is the product of Brexiteers’ febrile imagination. Meanwhile the real world passes them by.

DanishLutheran · Dec 25, 2018

lesliedellow said:
The “Forth Reich” is the product of Brexiteers’ febrile imagination. Meanwhile the real world passes them by.

Nice attempt at ad hom, bro

Not very effective, however. Aren't ad homs against the rules, btw?

lesliedellow · Dec 25, 2018

DanishLutheran said:
Nice attempt at ad hom, bro Not very effective, however. Aren't ad homs against the rules, btw?

When I want to insult Brexiteers, I go to a forum where I can do the job properly.

timtams · Dec 25, 2018

lesliedellow said:
When I want to insult Brexiteers, I go to a forum where I can do the job properly.

A calvinist and a liberal democrat. What an odd world we live. in.

timtams · Dec 25, 2018

There's probably no time for another referendum before article 50 kicks in. Had there been, a sensible one would have been as follows:

1. No deal and pursue trade with USA, Canada, Russia, China, India, etc.
2. Pursue Norway-type deal with free movement and free trade.

May's deal may yet prevail, when the opposition MPs realize that it's her deal or no deal. I suspect that is why she is ramping up preparations, hoping that a reality check will win her a chance.

No deal BREXIT looms

Not so Mystic Mog.

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