Jesus of History and Myth

Tom 1

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I care not to squabble further over minutiae. However, the very first search result from Google states:

'A hagiography is a type of biography that puts the subject in a very flattering light. Hagiographies are often about saints. The two halves of hagiography refer to holiness and writing, and it is something written about holy people.'

Jesus never wrote anything to paper that we know of. So of course the flattering biography came from others ;)

C’mon, flattering? That’s a rather strange word to use. Which passage from the gospels would you describe as being ‘flattering’ about Jesus? Maybe you should read a real hagiography so you have something to compare it with. Jesus doesn’t fit easily into those ways of thinking, since the actual reality of a perfect person doesn’t match up very well with our notions about what a perfect person would be like- the same is often true for our ideas about God. If you have the idea that the gospels were written by a bunch of lifelong mystics with a long cultivated notion of a spiritual messiah, who somehow managed to remain completely outside of the Jewish religious community and then tricked them into accepting the gospels, then you could argue that, from their POV at least, it could be seen as hagiographic. But it any case you just seem to be exchanging posts with me to make some other point of your own, whatever that is.
 
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Erik Nelson

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No, only that someone wrote a Jesus narrative based on prophecies.
Cart before the Horse. Why would anyone have followed Jesus if they didn't think he was the Messianic fulfillment of those ancient prophecies...

which you accept. To have been ancient even at that time in the first century.
 
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Erik Nelson

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I've touched on this very topic from time to time, and received little response in the past.

Take for instance... Mark 16:8 - (the original ending point). Then take the later 'addition' of Mark 16:9-20, (as even acknowledged by staunch believers/editors). Then begin to compare the two other synoptics of Luke and Matthew. Then read John. It seems to demonstrate a clear path of growing legend, over time.
That is circular reasoning. Scholars assume Mark was written first because it is the shortest. And they assume the short ending of Mark was first because it is the shortest. So you are assuming a priori that short is early. And using that assumption to justify your final conclusion that long is late. That is circular reasoning.
 
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Erik Nelson

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[QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 73507639, member: 409550]that among the 100/1,000's of claimed witnesses, you only read it from a bias based perspective, you have to wonder :)[/QUOTE]
In the first century AD. Only one in a 100 or 1000 were literate and could write.
 
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inquiring mind

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No, we are in the Matrix ;)

But seriously.... There exists no evidence that such disciples were martyred. This is wishful thinking by later believers in an attempt to further substantiate or justify what they already believed. This is evidence by the fact that we have no accounts of such, other than from the bias source itself, the Bible.

By default, this did not happen. The onus is on the ones whom state it did. And the evidence is severely lacking for such a claim. And yet, for many other acts of martyrdom, we have much evidence. But the conclusion remains regardless.... How does dying for a belief make it true - (especially opposing belief systems)?
You seem to have difficulty getting (or recognizing) my point. I’m trying to avoid what you refer to as Bible bias and just answer your question with common sense. Dying for a belief (as have the Muslims you refer to) and dying for something you saw and know to be a fact (a resurrected Jesus appearing to them just as He said He would) are entirely two different things. Even when they replaced Judas, the replacement had to have seen the risen Lord. There was no second-hand belief involved.

The disciples, at the time of the crucifixion, were apparently not willing to die for a belief (even though later believers did), which tells me they were probably questioning it. A short time later, after claiming they saw the resurrected Jesus, they did a 180 and were willingly martyred (I know, you deny they were)... what could have affected them so? My point: for them there wasn’t enough time after Jesus crucifixion to become so indoctrinated as to become willing martyrs for a belief that they had just denied a short time before, unless they actually saw and heard something profound with their own eyes and ears... namely the resurrected Jesus Himself.
 
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cvanwey

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That is circular reasoning. Scholars assume Mark was written first because it is the shortest. And they assume the short ending of Mark was first because it is the shortest. So you are assuming a priori that short is early. And using that assumption to justify your final conclusion that long is late. That is circular reasoning.

Nice straw man...

I never stated Mark was first because it was 'shorter'.

- Scholars agree Mark was first for various reasons.
- You also have Mark 16:8, which is the original end, and then have Mark 16:9-20, which is an entirely different end.
- You later get John

When you follow the trail, you see the story becomes more and more legendary as the writings continue. My point is that if you want to verify which story was written when, you not only follow what the historians state and claim, but you then read the stories themselves, and see that they become more fictional and elaborate as they are later written. This is exactly how legendary tales work.
 
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cvanwey

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[QUOTE="cvanwey, post: 73507639, member: 409550]that among the 100/1,000's of claimed witnesses, you only read it from a bias based perspective, you have to wonder :)
In the first century AD. Only one in a 100 or 1000 were literate and could write.[/QUOTE]

You have missed my point. I am completely aware that the percentage of illiterate was very high in such a day. My point is that the only ones writing as such, were already believers, and were not direct eyewitnesses. This is why it was bias.
 
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cvanwey

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C’mon, flattering? That’s a rather strange word to use. Which passage from the gospels would you describe as being ‘flattering’ about Jesus? Maybe you should read a real hagiography so you have something to compare it with. Jesus doesn’t fit easily into those ways of thinking, since the actual reality of a perfect person doesn’t match up very well with our notions about what a perfect person would be like- the same is often true for our ideas about God. If you have the idea that the gospels were written by a bunch of lifelong mystics with a long cultivated notion of a spiritual messiah, who somehow managed to remain completely outside of the Jewish religious community and then tricked them into accepting the gospels, then you could argue that, from their POV at least, it could be seen as hagiographic. But it any case you just seem to be exchanging posts with me to make some other point of your own, whatever that is.

I think it is (you) whom are extending this needless topic far beyond it's natural needed progression... The Bible states Jesus is the Messiah. Period. Now go back and read the very first vanilla definition of the word. It's rather straight forward.
 
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cvanwey

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You seem to have difficulty getting (or recognizing) my point. I’m trying to avoid what you refer to as Bible bias and just answer your question with common sense. Dying for a belief (as have the Muslims you refer to) and dying for something you saw and know to be a fact (a resurrected Jesus appearing to them just as He said He would) are entirely two different things. Even when they replaced Judas, the replacement had to have seen the risen Lord. There was no second-hand belief involved.

The disciples, at the time of the crucifixion, were apparently not willing to die for a belief (even though later believers did), which tells me they were probably questioning it. A short time later, after claiming they saw the resurrected Jesus, they did a 180 and were willingly martyred (I know, you deny they were)... what could have affected them so? My point: for them there wasn’t enough time after Jesus crucifixion to become so indoctrinated as to become willing martyrs for a belief that they had just denied a short time before, unless they actually saw and heard something profound with their own eyes and ears... namely the resurrected Jesus Himself.

No, it is you whom are missing two very distinct points....

-We are not even speaking about 'second hand' belief. You don't think that many martyrs claims they receive direct contact from their God(s). Why else would they die with such conviction? People claim to speak directly to God all the time, not just in the case of the ancient past with Saul and friends. Heck, I have family members whom claim to speak with God directly today.

- Furthermore, as I stated more than one time now, there appears no evidentiary account of the apostles actually dying as martyrs. As concluded, it was more-so plausible as apocryphal means or legend/lore.
 
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No, it is you whom are missing two very distinct points....

-We are not even speaking about 'second hand' belief. You don't think that many martyrs claims they receive direct contact from their God(s). Why else would they die with such conviction? People claim to speak directly to God all the time, not just in the case of the ancient past with Saul and friends. Heck, I have family members whom claim to speak with God directly today.

- Furthermore, as I stated more than one time now, there appears no evidentiary account of the apostles actually dying as martyrs. As concluded, it was more-so plausible as apocryphal means or legend/lore.
We’re on two different planes with this conversation... I’ll just leave it at that.
 
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cvanwey

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We’re on two different planes with this conversation... I’ll just leave it at that.

Here's the dealio... Outside the Bible, there exists no accounts of martyred men for Jesus. You must admit, though you can claim the Bible is written by more than one person, the objective is/was exactly the same. Furthermore, many stories were intended to either be direct copies, or to instead 'better' or bolster their own account of the same event, in which the author them self most likely did not witness first hand. I know you don't agree. And yes, there exist academic accolades on both sides of the fence.

We have contemporary eyewitness attestation for 'mass UFO' sightings, haunted houses, Gods, etc... In all such cases, the only way to 'verify' such acts, would be first hand eyewitness attestation. So of course, if one is going to analyze the textual criticism of such ancient claims, it would be nice to know the reports came not exclusively from bias accounts, where the majority of the writers/authors were most likely not there in the first place.

When you read the Bible, there exists some give-aways, as to acknowledge the authors were not there themselves, but were instead reporting what others believed. This is not direct eyewitness accounts. Many will argue that if I'm to scrutinize to this level, then I must exclude any written works from antiquity. In which I might retort, the only way to validate a one time miraculous event, is direct eye witness accounts from non bias publications. In regards to Jesus martyrs, the raising of the dead, and the like, we simply do not have as such. What we instead have, is a collection of bias written texts; some directly copying each other, and some extrapolating the existing story to write their own intended one historical event. And then later, due to the likes and inspiration from Marcian, a collection of works were later picked by the bias believing council of the day, we now call the NT.
 
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Here's the dealio... Outside the Bible, there exists no accounts of martyred men for Jesus. You must admit, though you can claim the Bible is written by more than one person, the objective is/was exactly the same. Furthermore, many stories were intended to either be direct copies, or to instead 'better' or bolster their own account of the same event, in which the author them self most likely did not witness first hand. I know you don't agree. And yes, there exist academic accolades on both sides of the fence.

We have contemporary eyewitness attestation for 'mass UFO' sightings, haunted houses, Gods, etc... In all such cases, the only way to 'verify' such acts, would be first hand eyewitness attestation. So of course, if one is going to analyze the textual criticism of such ancient claims, it would be nice to know the reports came not exclusively from bias accounts, where the majority of the writers/authors were most likely not there in the first place.

When you read the Bible, there exists some give-aways, as to acknowledge the authors were not there themselves, but were instead reporting what others believed. This is not direct eyewitness accounts. Many will argue that if I'm to scrutinize to this level, then I must exclude any written works from antiquity. In which I might retort, the only way to validate a one time miraculous event, is direct eye witness accounts from non bias publications. In regards to Jesus martyrs, the raising of the dead, and the like, we simply do not have as such. What we instead have, is a collection of bias written texts; some directly copying each other, and some extrapolating the existing story to write their own intended one historical event. And then later, due to the likes and inspiration from Marcian, a collection of works were later picked by the bias believing council of the day, we now call the NT.
I believe the Bible to be God’s word; you obviously do not. Everything about it, including the Gospel account, sings of the truth to me. It’s not for me, a believer, to provide evidence for anything beyond what it says. If you do not believe the Bible, you would not believe anything else presented anyway. So it is on you, an unbeliever and questioner, to provide credible period sources that contradict it, or it is you that has the groundless argument.
 
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Erik Nelson

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In the first century AD. Only one in a 100 or 1000 were literate and could write.

You have missed my point. I am completely aware that the percentage of illiterate was very high in such a day. My point is that the only ones writing as such, were already believers, and were not direct eyewitnesses. This is why it was bias.[/QUOTE]
John stood at the foot of the cross
Mark was the secretary of saint Peter
Matthew was an apostle from before the crucifixion
 
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Erik Nelson

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the only way to validate a one time miraculous event, is direct eye witness accounts from non bias publications. In regards to Jesus martyrs, the raising of the dead, and the like, we simply do not have as such. What we instead have, is a collection of bias written texts; some directly copying each other, and some extrapolating the existing story to write their own intended one historical event. And then later, due to the likes and inspiration from Marcian, a collection of works were later picked by the bias believing council of the day, we now call the NT.
How about a hostile witness? the Jewish Talmud records that Jesus was a sorcerer. Even his opponents. Acknowledged and attributed. Supernatural phenomena to him.
 
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cvanwey

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How about a hostile witness? the Jewish Talmud records that Jesus was a sorcerer. Even his opponents. Acknowledged and attributed. Supernatural phenomena to him.

Claims of witches and sorcerers were common in this era. So?
 
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cvanwey

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You have missed my point. I am completely aware that the percentage of illiterate was very high in such a day. My point is that the only ones writing as such, were already believers, and were not direct eyewitnesses. This is why it was bias.
John stood at the foot of the cross
Mark was the secretary of saint Peter
Matthew was an apostle from before the crucifixion[/QUOTE]

You have missed my point again. Such accounts were not written by the claimed eyewitnesses, but by authors much later. The vast majority of the claimed eyewitnesses were not literate. The Gospel accounts were written much later, taken from oral tradition and legendary tales.
 
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cvanwey

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So it is on you, an unbeliever and questioner, to provide credible period sources that contradict it, or it is you that has the groundless argument.

I hope you realize that you are severely shifting the burden of proof. Claims written to paper are not true by default. It is quite the opposite. And when one objectively researches such assertions and claims, only to find lack in evidence to correlate such claims, one has no choice but to question.

But I wouldn't expect a true presup. to understand what I'm saying.
 
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Erik Nelson

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Such accounts were not written by the claimed eyewitnesses, but by authors much later. The vast majority of the claimed eyewitnesses were not literate. The Gospel accounts were written much later, taken from oral tradition and legendary tales.
You don't know that. Everyone for the past 2000 years has said that John wrote the (first 20 chapters of the) Gospel of John

You are assuming that 2000 years of tradition "must" be wrong

Oral traditions were put in writing beginning about 20 years after the Crucifixion, perhaps inspired by the writings of St. Paul. Some time was required for the Apostles to learn foreign languages, both how to speak and how to write

The oldest copies (fragments) we still have today are not from the original very first documents to be put on paper
 
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Erik Nelson

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I hope you realize that you are severely shifting the burden of proof. Claims written to paper are not true by default. It is quite the opposite. And when one objectively researches such assertions and claims, only to find lack in evidence to correlate such claims, one has no choice but to question.

But I wouldn't expect a true presup. to understand what I'm saying.
Do you expect CNN or FOX News to show up with video cameras?

The whole entire point of the Gospel is Jesus began as a poor peasant worker "mustard seed" whose movement germinated & grew until it "moved the mountain" of the pagan empire

It started small, the only people who had "eyes on" were:
  • Jews who became Christians
  • Jews who rejected the Christians & whose survivors became modern Rabbinical Judaism
  • Romans
All three groups make more mention of Jesus Christ in the paltry meager amount of writings to have survived until today, than anyone has a right to expect or demand.

Roman writers knew of conflicts regarding "Chrestus" causing quite a commotion in Rome, Josephus mentions him specifically. (Pilate's own wife allegedly viewed Jesus as a magical holy man.)

Jewish accounts call him a "sorcerer".

Every direct eye-witness knew of him, acknowledging both his existence and profound to even supra-natural para-normal phenomena to accompany him.

If all that was true, what else would you expect to have on hand, today, in the scant records surviving from the 1st century? Video? Photographs?

CNN & FOX weren't there with cameras rolling. But Jewish Christians, Jewish non-Christians, & Romans all were there with pens slowly scrawling across paper, parchment & vellum.

What does come down to us is, there was a man & movement, and widespread reports of supra-natural phenomena occurring around them. If that really was true... what else would you expect to have to "prove" it? Video? Photos? Gravity waves? Neutrinos & dark matter particles?

You are raising your bar completely out of the realm of any & all possibilities. "I won't acknowledge even the possibility... b/c CNN & FOX weren't there to video record it and air it on TV"

IF it was true, the evidence we would reasonably expect to have... is exactly what we do in fact have

Even if we can't automatically accept everything we "hear" from the first century, e.g. John wrote the Gospel of John... neither can we automatically reject it, either

What we hear from the 1st century is, "John wrote the Gospel of John"... that claim is possible, plausible, probable -- who else would have bothered, in the 1st century, when the movement was still small? What other "Pillars of the Church" were there with Authority in the early Christian community? If not John, then... Paul? Peter? Mark, Matthew, Luke?

You really only have a few names to choose from, and even if we somehow got mixed up, and Peter wrote John, John wrote Mark, and Luke wrote Matthew, it doesn't really change the authority or accuracy of the writings

You are basically inventing unknown shadowy "Ghosts of history" who popped into the year 100 AD, wrote the Gospels, and passed them off to the entire Christian community, which entire community was gullible enough to accept the fraudulent attributions to the early Church Pillars...

If John didn't write John, who else did? Some random guy nobody knew, knows or remembers? It's more likely that some random dude wrote John... and successfully passed it off as genuine John... rather than just attribute it to John, the man in the right place, right time, with the right training & authority to write the book?

Which of those theories is more parsimonious?
  • John = right place, right time, right training, right authority, on scene, on hand, pen in hand
  • ??? = mystery man who "simulates John", acquiring all those same attributes, but isn't John
I mean, what, maybe it was Batman's great great … great grand ancestor! Maybe T-1000's time-travelled back to the 1st century and impersonated John!

Or, maybe, just maybe... it was just John -- cause there was nobody else who was going to bother writing for the "nothing" Christian community the Romans didn't even really care about at the time
 
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Erik Nelson

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Claims of witches and sorcerers were common in this era. So?
Not really -- 99.999% of the people alive in the 1st century received no acknowledgements of, nor attributions of, supra-natural phenomena associated with them

reports of para-normal, extremely unusual phenomena... have always been... extremely unusual

You cannot generalize from the surviving historical records, which record the "highlights" and "most exciting news stories" of the 1st century...

you cannot generalize from those "exciting & exceptional" news-worthy, record-worthy events...

to the whole general population at large

lots of strange stuff happens on earth, people talk about it, then as now, "truth is stranger than fiction"

but it's always unusual... or it wouldn't attract so much attention

again, our surviving historical records from the 1st century are like a CNN "Century in Review" episode aired in December 1999 about the 20th century... all the highlights & remarkable events will be there... but all those events were still exceptional & remarkable, in the grand scheme of things, even if they happen to be presented altogether in one episode

you can't generalize from that one episode of "The 20th Century in Review"... to everybody everywhere everywhen

Josephus is only going to bother to write about exceptional newsworthy topics; Tacitus, too...

doesn't mean exceptional events were a "dime a dozen" or commonplace

strange stuff happens, people talk about it... now you come along, and say strange stuff never happens... but it must have, or otherwise people would've been talking about something else
 
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