How can you determine which is true?

aiki

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It's quite obvious by your response that you lack basic knowledge of Koine Greek.

You have absolutely no idea what my knowledge of Koine Greek is or is not. None. You're merely assuming - imagining, really - what I know of Koine Greek. Seems to be par for the course with you.

Thus it is impossible as you claim for this verse to be referring to a one-time choice whether to live according to the flesh or Spirit as in when one decides to obey or disobey the gospel message.

Who said anything about a "one-time choice"? I didn't. From the moment an unbeliever hears the Gospel until the time they stand before their Maker face-to-face, the choice to trust in Christ or not, to live according the flesh or Spirit, remains before them. See how all your blustering about Greek grammar is making you look foolish? I do.

FYI "for" as used in this verse is a coordinating conjunction. Do you know what that means? It connects both verses. Paul references BRETHREN in v.12 so he is specifically addressing the brethren in v.13. Brethren never refers to the unsaved or persons claiming to be saved. At this point, you are grasping at straws.

Yes, I know what a coordinating conjunction is. Paul is, as I explained, warning the "brethren" to whom he is writing that if they claim to be saved, to be brethren, but are not living according to the Spirit but the flesh, they are not saved at all but still lost. The appearance of "for" at the beginning of verse 13 does not defeat this understanding of Paul's words. As far as I'm concerned, you're the one grasping at straws.

Why not? You made your claim and I asked you about it. What harm is that?

Harm? Did I say anything about harm? No. But I did make it clear that I am not going to put myself in a place where you become the judge of my credentials. Doing so sets a precedent to which I refuse to become subject.

Now days anyone who teaches at an educational institution has his/her credentials and affiliation plainly listed online with that institution. Your refusal to do so despite your claim speaks volumes.

I'm sure it does - to one who desperately wants to establish himself in a position superior to that of his opponent quite apart from the content of his arguments.

Moreover, I asked you for your interpretation of how Rom 8:13 being a first class conditional sentence affects its interpretation. You also declined to do that. I can only surmise that you are incapable of doing so. If you teach as you so claim, that should be a very simple thing for you to do.

But, you see, I'm not going to jump through your hoops. I'm here to argue for a particular understanding of Scripture soteriologically, not prove myself to you - or anyone else on this website. If you have a problem with that, well, tough nuts. I despise it when a person trots out their credentials as though their credentials somehow make their words gold, or make up for crummy argumentation. They don't. Some of the worst thinkers I've encountered were seminarians and/or university graduates. So, I'm not going to do what I despise and make myself answerable to you at the same time. Not for a second.
 
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aiki said in post #178:

[Re: Hebrews 10:26]

It describes, not a single willful sin, but a persistent, ongoing, manner of wicked living plainly inconsistent with the behaviour of a truly born-again believer (1 John 3:10).

1 John 3:10 brings to mind Matthew 7:21-23, which shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24; 1 John 2:4). But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole. For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are true Christians, true believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17). People must be careful not to fall into the unforgivable presumption of Mark 3:22-30.

aiki said in post #178:

[Re: Hebrews 10:26]

. . . the verse is speaking of a lost person, not a saved one, and so it makes perfect sense for such a person, who has known the truth of the Gospel but rejected it for a life of sin, to be described as one for whom the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary "no longer remains."

Note that Hebrews 10:26 refers to sanctified people (Hebrews 10:29). Similarly, 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b), they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

aiki said in post #178:

[Re: Hebrews 10:26]

Isn't the writer of Hebrews speaking to "brethren"? Yes, but among the brethren there were "tares," false converts who thought of themselves as members of the Church, participating in the community of believers as such, but who were not actually born-again.

Note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots. For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will. Also, the mistaken doctrine of assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that a Christian can have no present assurance that he is truly saved. For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved because no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

But under true, Biblical doctrine, every believer in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31) can know that he is presently saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4), if, after he became a Christian, he repented from his sins (1 John 3:6) and confessed them to God (1 John 1:9). And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24). And no matter how many tests a Christian fails during his lifetime, sometime subsequent to his initial repentance, even if he fails and commits sin seventy-times-seven times in a single day (Matthew 18:21-22, Luke 17:4), he can be sure that so long as he sincerely repents from every act of sin and confesses it to God, he will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9). He will lose his salvation ultimately only if he wrongly employs his free will to do something like committing a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).
 
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aiki said in post #178:

Bible2+ said:

For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

None of the verses/passages you cite here teach that one can lose one's salvation. For every one of them it perfectly possible to argue, not for a saved-and-lost construction, but a never-was-saved one.

Then are you saying, for example, that it was possible that the apostle Paul was never saved (1 Corinthians 9:27)?

Also, regarding Luke 12:45-46, for example, note that some Christians, at the judgment of the Church by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30), at His future, Second Coming (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27), will lose their salvation because of such things as unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8; 2 Timothy 2:12b). That is why Christians know the "terror" of the coming judgment of the Church by Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:10-11), why they must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46), why they must be careful to work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, regarding 1 John 5:16, for example, it means that if a Christian sees a fellow Christian commit a sin, before that fellow Christian dies it is possible for the first Christian to exhort him to repent from that sin (Hebrews 3:13) and to pray with him that God would forgive him for it (1 John 1:9). But 1 John 5:16b means that it is possible for a Christian to wrongly employ his free will to commit a sin without repentance until he dies, at which point there is no use praying for forgiveness for that sin. For there is no forgiveness for a sin which is not repented from while someone is still alive (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

Also, regarding James 5:19-20, for example, it is addressing "brethren" Christians, telling them that if any of them wanders away from the truth and falls back into a course of sinful living, and then a fellow Christian succeeds in exhorting that sinful Christian to repent from his sin (Hebrews 3:13), the second Christian will save the first from ultimately losing his salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27). To "save a soul from death" (James 5:19-20) means to save a soul from eternal suffering in hell (Matthew 10:28, Hebrews 10:39).

aiki said in post #178:

There is no such thing as "initial salvation."

Note that the ideas of initial salvation and ultimate salvation do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "initial salvation" and "ultimate salvation" for them to be true and supported by the Bible, just as, for example, the ideas of the unity of God and the Trinity do not have to be explicitly referred to in the Bible as "the unity" and "the Trinity" for them to be true and supported by the Bible (John 10:30, John 1:1,14, Isaiah 45:5, Matthew 28:19, Acts 5:3-4).

For in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9), while other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, in the Bible, the difference between initial salvation and ultimate salvation is that initial salvation is the salvation which Christians have now (Ephesians 2:5), in their mortal bodies, while ultimate salvation is the salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1:5), and which is always drawing nearer (Romans 13:11), that salvation which Christians are still hoping for (1 Thessalonians 5:8, Romans 8:23-25, Mark 10:30), and which Jesus Christ will bring to obedient Christians at His future, Second Coming (Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 5:9), when He will resurrect (if dead) or change (if alive) their mortal physical bodies into immortal physical bodies just like the immortal physical body which Jesus obtained at His resurrection on the third day after His death (Luke 24:39,46; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4,21-23,51-53, Philippians 3:21, Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:11-14).
 
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aiki said in post #178:

Just like a physical birth, one's spiritual birth is a one-time event, not a protracted process taking place over the span of years.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is both present salvation and a contract for ultimate salvation, just as the birth of an infant is both present life and a contract for life as an adult. Just as children can know that they are actually alive, so initially saved people (that is, Christians) can know that they are actually saved (1 John 5:13; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). And just as an infant cannot "give back" his being born, or become unborn, so a born-again person cannot become un-born-again, or "give back" his being born again, his being initially saved. But just as there is no assurance that children will reach adulthood, so there is no assurance that initially saved people will obtain ultimate salvation. For just as there are conditions placed on children, like not running into traffic, and not drinking the Drano under the sink, if they are to reach adulthood, so there are conditions placed on the born-again, the initially saved, if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 3:6,14; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

aiki said in post #178:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

A Christian becoming a new creature (2 Corinthians 5:17) does not take away his free will. It does not turn him into a robot. So it is possible for him to wrongly employ his free will to the ultimate loss of his salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

OSAS must ultimately negate free will.

aiki said in post #178:

[Re: God and born-again people]

He is their "breath," their spiritual "heartbeat," the life-giving Vine from whom all branches sprout, and grow, and bear fruit.

Note that John 15:2a refers to true Christians, who are truly branches in the vine of Jesus Christ, wrongly employing their free will in such a way that they fail to produce good fruit, so that ultimately they are taken away from Jesus (John 15:2a), cut off from Him for their unrepentant laziness, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30).

True Christians can also be ultimately cut off from Jesus Christ, cast away, and burned; they can ultimately lose their salvation, for not continuing to abide in Jesus (John 15:6), in the sense of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:12b), or unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46; 1 Corinthians 9:27).

For example, Hebrews 6:4-8 shows that Christians, who have repented and become partakers of God's Holy Spirit, can ultimately lose their salvation because of subsequently wrongly employing their free will to "fall away", to commit apostasy, to stop believing (like in Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and 2 Thessalonians 2:3), just as other Bible verses show the same thing (John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

One way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he begins to listen to the lies of demons and latch onto them, to the point where he departs from the Christian faith (1 Timothy 4:1). In a wrong desire to continue in their lusts without repentance, Christians can reach the point where they are no longer able to endure the sound doctrine of the Bible, and instead seek out and latch onto other teachings which will help to support them in their lusts (2 Timothy 4:3-4).

Another way that a Christian could be brought to the point where he commits apostasy would be if he has a terror of being tortured and killed during a persecution against Christians, so that during such a persecution he renounces his faith in Jesus Christ and the Gospel to avoid being tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12). Some Christians will fall away in this sense (2 Thessalonians 2:3) during the future Tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, cf. Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13), when the future Antichrist will take power over the earth, make war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding), and physically overcome them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

There will be no way to repent from committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8), and worshipping the future Antichrist and his image, and willingly receiving his mark on the forehead or right hand, even if this is done just to keep from getting killed (Revelation 13:15-18). Whoever does these things, even if he had been a Christian before, will end up suffering punishment from God in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-12). So Christians must be willing to be killed, even by getting beheaded (Revelation 20:4-6), before they would ever do any of these things (Revelation 14:12-13).

This ties in with the fact that a Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). An example of Christians ultimately "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528), or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2), is found later in the book of Revelation, in Revelation 15:2, which refers to those Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during the future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). Christians will be able to spiritually "overcome" the Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives to the death (Revelation 12:11).
 
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aiki said in post #178:

A new spiritual babe in Christ, then, will "breathe" inevitably and naturally as a consequence of the life of Christ within, not by a fearful working to maintain membership in God's family.

Note that initial salvation by grace through faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5) does not automatically produce good works. That is why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8), and why it is possible for Christians to wrongly employ their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13), because of free will.

OSAS must ultimately negate free will.

*******

aiki said in post #180:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

Note that 1 John 2:19 does not require that apostate Christians were never real Christians but can mean that apostate Christians were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real Christians, who have their names written in the Book of Life, can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3) and so left the Church because of its continued (and correct) insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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OSAS must ultimately negate free will.
Not even just ultimately ! Just read this , and realized if they had free will, they would not believe in osas. But then, what has taken away their free will ? I don't know, never thought about it from this perspective before.
Then also, what, if anything, or who, can help them ? Heal them ?
 
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ToBeLoved

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Your response is irrelevant. Whether one is, or has been born of God still makes that person a believer correct? You can correctly say that you were born of God on a certain date when you first repented and trusted in the blood of Jesus for forgiveness. You can also say that you are born of God in the present tense. In either instance, you are still a believer both in the past and present tense. However, as I pointed out those verses which you did not even bother to address, you as God's child are righteous contingent upon practicing righteous (v.7). Converse logic dictates that you are unrighteous if you do not practice righteousness. Does grace give you a license to sin so that you you would still be considered righteous? That would be ludicrous. That is why John wrote that those children who practice sin are of the devil (v.8). Christians can either choose to walk in the light or to walk in the darkness. Those who walk in the light have their sins cleansed (1 Jn 1:7). Notice that verse states IF we walk in the light.... "If" indicates the possibility - not certainty that believers will walk in the light. This plainly contradicts your notion that all genuine believers will not practice sin. Believers who walk in the light still sin but they do not practice sin. When they occasionally sin, Jesus' blood cleanses upon repentance. No such assurance for believers who choose to engage in the practice of sin. Instead of walking in the light, they walk in darkness and do not even have fellowship with God (1 Jn 1:6). That is why they are children of the devil as their lifestyle evidences no repentance. Scripture interprets scripture.
It would then need to be looked at by WHOSE righteousness we are judged.

It has always been Christ’s righteousness to salvation.

However, we are each going to be judged according to what we have done, but that’s not contingent to salvation.

People get that mixed up and start turns salvation into a works based thing.
 
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ToBeLoved

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OSAS must ultimately negate free will.

*******

Note that 1 John 2:19 does not require that apostate Christians were never real Christians but can mean that apostate Christians were never of the overcomers to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). Real Christians, who have their names written in the Book of Life, can have their names blotted out if they fail to overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). People can really believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel only for awhile, before at some point wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

1 John 2:18-19 can refer to Christians who eventually became Gnostic Christians (cf. 2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3) and so left the Church because of its continued (and correct) insistence that Christ is in the flesh (Luke 24:39).
No proof of this. You are buying into Calvinist doctrine as being the only basis for OSAS
 
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ToBeLoved said in post #187:

. . . we are each going to be judged according to what we have done, but that’s not contingent to salvation.

Note that it is, for:

Romans 2:6 [God] will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath . . .

ToBeLoved said in post #187:

People get that mixed up and start turns salvation into a works based thing.

Note that it is, ultimately, for:

Matthew 7:21 ¶Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

*******

ToBeLoved said in post #188:

You are buying into Calvinist doctrine as being the only basis for OSAS

On what Bible verses do you base your belief in OSAS?
 
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aiki

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You misunderstand our position my friend. We do not claim that salvation is contingent upon our works it is contingent upon our faith and abiding in Christ. Yes you are correct my friend that salvation is not obtained by works but here’s where your making your mistake. “It follows logically that if one cannot do works to obtain salvation, then one cannot do works to retain salvation”. Let’s not use logic to determine the truth of God’s word instead we must let the scriptures do the teaching.

??? Where, exactly, do you think logic originates if not in God? Are you suggesting God is irrational?

If you want to defend your views by suggesting God's truth is illogical, go ahead. Personally, I think in doing so you immediately rule yourself out as a trustworthy source of information.

Using logic often results in making assumptions that can contradict what the scriptures say.

Oh? Example, please. When I read Scripture I see all sorts of appeals to logic and arguments built on rational thought. It is astonishing to me in the extreme that you would suggest Scripture and logic and reason are in contradiction to one another. Yikes!

Isaiah 1:18
18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord...


John 15:1-8 says that works are absolutely necessary for abiding in Christ which is absolutely necessary for salvation. What you are suggesting is that a person can abide in Christ without works which is contradictory to scripture.

No, this is not what John 15:1-8 indicates. No where in the passage does John assert that works are absolutely necessary to abiding, only that they are the inevitable product of abiding. One abides in Christ in order to bear fruit, not in order to abide in Christ. Your thinking is tautological, it is entirely circular here, and so quite irrational. John, in contrast, wrote,

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As
the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

See? Abiding is the means to bearing fruit and not the other way 'round.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

And here again the logical process John lays out is that abiding precedes and gives rise to bearing fruit.

Also, I have never suggested that one can abide in Christ but never produce corresponding works. You will never find such a statement from me in any of the thousands of posts I've made on CF.

Those who are bearing much fruit are abiding. He then goes on to reinforce this by saying for apart from Me you can do nothing. This means we are not trying to abide by bearing fruit we are bearing fruit as a result of currently abiding.

??? How, exactly, does what you've written here reconcile with your earlier statement?:

"John 15:1-8 says that works are absolutely necessary for abiding in Christ which is absolutely necessary for salvation."

If abiding in Christ produces works, how are works necessary for abiding in Christ? It sounds like you're talking in a circle, here. If abiding produces works, then abiding precedes works and so must exist apart from works. A branch growing from the trunk of a tree does not usually bear fruit as soon as it begins to thrust forth from the trunk. It is too small, too weak, to do so. No, it must grow and strengthen, sometimes for months or years, before anything but leaves appear on it. So, the branch may, for a time, "abide" in the tree without bearing fruit, which demonstrates that bearing fruit is not necessary to being a branch in and of the tree.

Those who advocate eternal security suggest that some may do works and some may not but John 15:1-6 explains what happens to those who do not do good works or bear fruit.

I am of the OSAS view but I don't believe that some Christians may live a holy life and some may not. And John 15:1-6 does not talk about believers losing salvation, either. The phrase "takes away" in verse 2 ought to be translated "lifts up" or "takes up" in reflection of the viticultural practices of the time. Verse 6 is speaking of one who is not abiding in Christ, that is, one who is not saved. To be saved is to be in Christ (Romans 8:1-2; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 1:30, etc.)

Many OSAS advocates say this means to be lifted up but there is a specific definition pertaining to something that is attached to something.

In the spring, lifting up the branches growing along the ground is what the vinedresser's would have done in the time when Jesus spoke what he did in John 15:1-5 about branches in the vine. What's more, the primary meaning of the verb "airo," translated "takes away" in verse 2, is "to lift" and is rendered this way more than 32 times in Scripture.

This is not true at all.

I'm afraid it is.

Are we not devoted to serving and pleasing those we love? Surely it is not by fear that we do things to please those we love.

A love motive is certainly what Scripture urges - really, commands - of the Christian believer.

I would maintain that we do things to please them because of our love. The same applies to our love of God.

Yes, it should. But for a great many of the SAL view, fear stands where love ought to stand.

In every gospel and every epistle obedience is absolutely mandatory for salvation.

No, it's not. You're mixing up what is inevitable with what is necessary. They aren't the same thing. Good works are inevitable when one is saved, but they aren't, therefore, necessary to being saved. An apple tree, if it is healthy and well-nourished, will inevitably produce apples, but an apple tree is still an apple tree even if it doesn't. Bearing apples isn't, then, necessary to being an apple tree. If birds are in proximity to a fully-functional cat who is free to chase them, it is inevitable that the cat will chase the birds. Doing so isn't necessary to being a cat, however. If a cat never chased a bird it would still be a cat. Not everything, then, that is inevitable - as good works are for the Christian - is necessary. As Ephesians 2:10 explains, a Christian is saved unto good works, not by them.
 
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BNR32FAN

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??? Where, exactly, do you think logic originates if not in God? Are you suggesting God is irrational?

If you want to defend your views by suggesting God's truth is illogical, go ahead. Personally, I think in doing so you immediately rule yourself out as a trustworthy source of information.



Oh? Example, please. When I read Scripture I see all sorts of appeals to logic and arguments built on rational thought. It is astonishing to me in the extreme that you would suggest Scripture and logic and reason are in contradiction to one another. Yikes!

Isaiah 1:18
18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord...




No, this is not what John 15:1-8 indicates. No where in the passage does John assert that works are absolutely necessary to abiding, only that they are the inevitable product of abiding. One abides in Christ in order to bear fruit, not in order to abide in Christ. Your thinking is tautological, it is entirely circular here, and so quite irrational. John, in contrast, wrote,

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As
the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

See? Abiding is the means to bearing fruit and not the other way 'round.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

And here again the logical process John lays out is that abiding precedes and gives rise to bearing fruit.

Also, I have never suggested that one can abide in Christ but never produce corresponding works. You will never find such a statement from me in any of the thousands of posts I've made on CF.



??? How, exactly, does what you've written here reconcile with your earlier statement?:

"John 15:1-8 says that works are absolutely necessary for abiding in Christ which is absolutely necessary for salvation."

If abiding in Christ produces works, how are works necessary for abiding in Christ? It sounds like you're talking in a circle, here. If abiding produces works, then abiding precedes works and so must exist apart from works. A branch growing from the trunk of a tree does not usually bear fruit as soon as it begins to thrust forth from the trunk. It is too small, too weak, to do so. No, it must grow and strengthen, sometimes for months or years, before anything but leaves appear on it. So, the branch may, for a time, "abide" in the tree without bearing fruit, which demonstrates that bearing fruit is not necessary to being a branch in and of the tree.



I am of the OSAS view but I don't believe that some Christians may live a holy life and some may not. And John 15:1-6 does not talk about believers losing salvation, either. The phrase "takes away" in verse 2 ought to be translated "lifts up" or "takes up" in reflection of the viticultural practices of the time. Verse 6 is speaking of one who is not abiding in Christ, that is, one who is not saved. To be saved is to be in Christ (Romans 8:1-2; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 1:30, etc.)



In the spring, lifting up the branches growing along the ground is what the vinedresser's would have done in the time when Jesus spoke what he did in John 15:1-5 about branches in the vine. What's more, the primary meaning of the verb "airo," translated "takes away" in verse 2, is "to lift" and is rendered this way more than 32 times in Scripture.



I'm afraid it is.



A love motive is certainly what Scripture urges - really, commands - of the Christian believer.



Yes, it should. But for a great many of the SAL view, fear stands where love ought to stand.



No, it's not. You're mixing up what is inevitable with what is necessary. They aren't the same thing. Good works are inevitable when one is saved, but they aren't, therefore, necessary to being saved. An apple tree, if it is healthy and well-nourished, will inevitably produce apples, but an apple tree is still an apple tree even if it doesn't. Bearing apples isn't, then, necessary to being an apple tree. If birds are in proximity to a fully-functional cat who is free to chase them, it is inevitable that the cat will chase the birds. Doing so isn't necessary to being a cat, however. If a cat never chased a bird it would still be a cat. Not everything, then, that is inevitable - as good works are for the Christian - is necessary. As Ephesians 2:10 explains, a Christian is saved unto good works, not by them.

Ok I’m just going to skip all the garbage replies and just get down to the root of the problem here. You believe in OSAS. The apostles abided in Christ because they produced fruit. Jesus specifically says that. Two questions, why does Jesus tell them to abide (remain) in Him if they cannot fall away? Second question what are the consequences for not abiding? You say they are lifted up but that is not the definition of the word pertaining to something that is attached. Lifted up is not the primary definition it is one definition. How many times it’s used in the Bible is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is what this word means in reference to something that is attached. Not to mention you completely ignored the definition of the word “cast, withered, and burned” that I provided.
 
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BNR32FAN

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??? Where, exactly, do you think logic originates if not in God? Are you suggesting God is irrational?

If you want to defend your views by suggesting God's truth is illogical, go ahead. Personally, I think in doing so you immediately rule yourself out as a trustworthy source of information.



Oh? Example, please. When I read Scripture I see all sorts of appeals to logic and arguments built on rational thought. It is astonishing to me in the extreme that you would suggest Scripture and logic and reason are in contradiction to one another. Yikes!

Isaiah 1:18
18 "Come now, and let us reason together," Says the Lord...




No, this is not what John 15:1-8 indicates. No where in the passage does John assert that works are absolutely necessary to abiding, only that they are the inevitable product of abiding. One abides in Christ in order to bear fruit, not in order to abide in Christ. Your thinking is tautological, it is entirely circular here, and so quite irrational. John, in contrast, wrote,

John 15:4-5
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As
the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

See? Abiding is the means to bearing fruit and not the other way 'round.

5 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing.

And here again the logical process John lays out is that abiding precedes and gives rise to bearing fruit.

Also, I have never suggested that one can abide in Christ but never produce corresponding works. You will never find such a statement from me in any of the thousands of posts I've made on CF.



??? How, exactly, does what you've written here reconcile with your earlier statement?:

"John 15:1-8 says that works are absolutely necessary for abiding in Christ which is absolutely necessary for salvation."

If abiding in Christ produces works, how are works necessary for abiding in Christ? It sounds like you're talking in a circle, here. If abiding produces works, then abiding precedes works and so must exist apart from works. A branch growing from the trunk of a tree does not usually bear fruit as soon as it begins to thrust forth from the trunk. It is too small, too weak, to do so. No, it must grow and strengthen, sometimes for months or years, before anything but leaves appear on it. So, the branch may, for a time, "abide" in the tree without bearing fruit, which demonstrates that bearing fruit is not necessary to being a branch in and of the tree.



I am of the OSAS view but I don't believe that some Christians may live a holy life and some may not. And John 15:1-6 does not talk about believers losing salvation, either. The phrase "takes away" in verse 2 ought to be translated "lifts up" or "takes up" in reflection of the viticultural practices of the time. Verse 6 is speaking of one who is not abiding in Christ, that is, one who is not saved. To be saved is to be in Christ (Romans 8:1-2; Romans 12:5; 1 Corinthians 1:30, etc.)



In the spring, lifting up the branches growing along the ground is what the vinedresser's would have done in the time when Jesus spoke what he did in John 15:1-5 about branches in the vine. What's more, the primary meaning of the verb "airo," translated "takes away" in verse 2, is "to lift" and is rendered this way more than 32 times in Scripture.



I'm afraid it is.



A love motive is certainly what Scripture urges - really, commands - of the Christian believer.



Yes, it should. But for a great many of the SAL view, fear stands where love ought to stand.



No, it's not. You're mixing up what is inevitable with what is necessary. They aren't the same thing. Good works are inevitable when one is saved, but they aren't, therefore, necessary to being saved. An apple tree, if it is healthy and well-nourished, will inevitably produce apples, but an apple tree is still an apple tree even if it doesn't. Bearing apples isn't, then, necessary to being an apple tree. If birds are in proximity to a fully-functional cat who is free to chase them, it is inevitable that the cat will chase the birds. Doing so isn't necessary to being a cat, however. If a cat never chased a bird it would still be a cat. Not everything, then, that is inevitable - as good works are for the Christian - is necessary. As Ephesians 2:10 explains, a Christian is saved unto good works, not by them.

Jesus said those who abide in me will produce much fruit. Anyone who does not produce fruit does not abide in me. So your apple tree and cat analogies don’t fit the scriptures.
 
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aiki

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1 John 3:10 brings to mind Matthew 7:21-23, which shows that both faith and obedience to God are required for Christians to enter ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9, James 2:24; 1 John 2:4).

Actually, I think Matthew 7:21-22 has to do with not loving God. For all of the good deeds those in the passage did, they did not claim to have obeyed the First and Great Commandment which is to love God with everything one is and has. As Paul explains in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3, there is no substitute for loving God and no spiritual value in doing good apart from a love for Him.

There is no such thing as "ultimate salvation." This phrase appears no where in Scripture, nor is it implied. And the idea that works have a salvific effect is exactly opposite the plain declaration of Scripture:

Ephesians 2:8-9
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.


2 Timothy 1:9
9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Titus 3:5
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

All of the verses you offered in assertion of the notion that works are salvific refer to the works that reveal the saved condition of a person, not that earn that saved condition.

But, because of free will, there is no assurance that Christians will choose to obey (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46).

This assumes your premise that works are salvific, which they aren't. Christians may not always choose to obey God, but because their works aren't integral to their being saved, this exercise of their free will isn't spiritually fatal.

Matthew 7:23a could be hyperbole, like Matthew 23:24b is hyperbole.

What could be is not therefore what is; what is possible is not therefore what is probable. Nothing in the passage from Matthew 7:21-23 indicates hyperbole is in play. In Matthew 23:24, Christ is clearly hyperbolic: No man can actually swallow a camel. Where is the hyperbole in Matthew 7:23, though? Those who say to Christ, "Lord, Lord" he has, as their Lord, never known. I don't see any hyperbole in this...

For Matthew 7:22 could refer to Christians, believers in the Gospel of Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31), who had repented from their sins (1 John 3:6) and performed many wonderful works for Jesus to the end (John 15:4-5). But at some point subsequent to their initial repentance, they had fallen back into some unrepentant sin (Matthew 7:23b; 2 Peter 2:20-22), so that they had to be rejected by Jesus in the end despite their continued faith and good works (1 Corinthians 9:27; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, Hebrews 10:26-29).

This is all entirely speculative, adding enormously - and illegitimately - to the details of the story Jesus tells. There is no hint in the story itself of any of the things you've added here. None. Your unwarranted additions, are, of course, convenient to your saved-and-lost perspective but they are nonetheless unwarranted and as such deserve to be rejected outright.

Regarding the ability to cast out demons (Matthew 7:22), that is one of the signs that people are true Christians, true believers in the Gospel (Mark 16:17).

No, it is merely a testament to the power of Christ's name over the demonic.

It is quite disturbing to me to see how you're twisting out of all recognition the story Christ tells in Matthew 7:21-23. You add one twist and a whole series of other twists tumble out of it until you've totally wrested the story into saying what it doesn't. This is very bad handling of God's word. Very bad. Whatever saved-and-lost contortions you want to make about the fact that the people in the story could cast out demons, Jesus said very explicitly to them, "I NEVER knew you."

Note that Hebrews 10:26 refers to sanctified people (Hebrews 10:29).

If the person in view in the passage is a lost person, then the blood of the covenant sanctifies him only potentially, not actually.

Similarly, 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b)

If the "they" in verse 20 refers to the false teachers plaguing the Church, then, clearly, the verse is not speaking of truly born-again people who had actually escaped the "pollutions of the world." If it is referring instead to those who come under the power of the evil false teacher, the verse never says what their end is, only that it is worse than the beginning. It is reading into the verse to say it means "lost salvation." The actual "worse end" I think is hinted at two verses later:

2 Peter 2:22
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

It is one thing to have always been dirty and to become dirtier still; it is quite another to have been thoroughly cleaned and then "wallow in the mire." We don't protest a pair of muddy boots being used to track through a mud puddle, but we do decry a clean, white uniform being spattered with dirt. This is the worse ending referred to in verse 20. The verse, though, never indicates that salvation is lost, only that a person is fouled by false teaching, or is a false teacher who has never been saved.

Note that Calvinism's mistaken doctrine of once-saved-always-saved through assured perseverance unwittingly ends up logically requiring that Christians are robots.

Maybe so, but I'm not a Calvinist.

For if Christians cannot choose to do evil to the point where they can ultimately lose their salvation, then they no longer have free will.

I hold to a soft libertarian view of free will. That is, I think there are moments of genuine free choice in a person's life but as they make a choice in these moments, they begin to confine their will along the line of that choice. These are what as known as "will-setting moments." So, I don't hold to a radically-free view of human choice, but I don't subscribe to determinism, either.

For if a Christian who does not persevere to the end was never truly saved, then no Christian can presently have the assurance that he is truly saved because no Christian can know if he will persevere to the end. Down the road, he could fail to persevere and so end up showing that he was all along only a fake Christian, a self-deceived hypocrite.

You don't appear to understand the doctrine you're trying to criticize. Unlike your view, Calvinism doesn't require perfect obedience for a person to qualify for salvation, only the marks of genuine salvation to be present to certify a person's claim to salvation. If one is not morally perfect at all times but can point to the regular, persistent conviction of God's Spirit, a consistently growing understanding of God's word, strengthening in moments of trouble and temptation, divine comfort in difficulty and sorrow, material provision in times of need, the chastisement of God, the increase of holiness, and the progressive development of the Fruit of the Spirit, then a person is truly saved and will persevere to the end. It isn't, then, that, on Calvinism, salvation is always unknown. As Paul wrote, we can test ourselves to see whether or not we have been saved. And when it is clear by the presence of the appropriate marks of salvation that we are saved, we can be confident that we will persevere to the end. Not because we are strong but because the One who dwells within us is and has promised to bring our fellowship with Him to full, eternal fruition (Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 12:2; etc.).

And he can be sure that as a saved person, he can never be separated from the love of God, so long as he loves God (Romans 8:28-39), which means to obey Him (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24).

No where in the passage from Romans 8 you cite above is the qualification you make ever stated. There is no "saved so long as he loves God" caveat to Paul's remarks on the predestined salvation of the called believer. And love is manifested in obedience but it is not tantamount to obedience. Agape love, the love God gives to us in His Spirit and wants from us, is first and foremost a deep heart's desire to honor and live God's way. Love is not obedience itself, however. This is why Jesus put love of him prior to obedience and made that obedience contingent upon it:

John 14:23-24
23 Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him.
24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.
 
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aiki

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Ok I’m just going to skip all the garbage replies and just get down to the root of the problem here. You believe in OSAS.

"Garbage replies"? The gloves have come off, have they? So, why should I give one moment's attention to anything else you write when you respond to my comments with such dismissive and discourteous things?

The problem, as I see it, isn't that I believe in OSAS but that you don't.

The apostles abided in Christ because they produced fruit.

No, the apostles produced fruit because they abided in Christ. An apple tree is still an apple tree even when it isn't bearing apples, you know.

Jesus specifically says that.

No, actually he doesn't.

Two questions, why does Jesus tell them to abide (remain) in Him if they cannot fall away?

Jesus never says in John 15:1-5 that they can fall away. I explained why in my "garbage reply."

Second question what are the consequences for not abiding?

In verse 2, the consequence is that the unfruitful branch is lifted up.

You say they are lifted up but that is not the definition of the word pertaining to something that is attached.

In the context of the practices of the vinedressers of the time, "lifted up" is exactly the right translation.

How many times it’s used in the Bible is completely irrelevant.

I disagree.
 
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No, the apostles produced fruit because they abided in Christ. An apple tree is still an apple tree even when it isn't bearing apples, you know.

Yes you are correct the context I meant to say we know they abided in Christ because they produce fruit. I didn’t word that clearly. My mistake.
 
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"Garbage replies"? The gloves have come off, have they? So, why should I give one moment's attention to anything else you write when you respond to my comments with such dismissive and discourteous things?

The problem, as I see it, isn't that I believe in OSAS but that you don't.



No, the apostles produced fruit because they abided in Christ. An apple tree is still an apple tree even when it isn't bearing apples, you know.



No, actually he doesn't.



Jesus never says in John 15:1-5 that they can fall away. I explained why in my "garbage explanation."



In verse 2, the consequence is that the unfruitful branch is lifted up.



In the context of the practices of the vinedressers of the time, "lifted up" is exactly the right translation.



I disagree.

John 15:2

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.

away


G142


Lemma:

αἴρω


Transliteration:

aírō


Pronounce:

ah'-ee-ro


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to raise up, elevate, lift up a) to raise from the ground, take up: stones b) to raise upwards, elevate, lift up: the hand c) to draw up: a fish

2) to take upon one's self and carry what has been raised up, to bear

3) to bear away what has been raised, carry off a) to move from its place b) to take off or away what is attached to anything c) to remove d) to carry off, carry away with one e) to appropriate what is taken f) to take away from another what is his or what is committed to him, to take by force g) to take and apply to any use h) to take from among the living, either by a natural death, or by violence i) cause to cease

Look at the definition. This is the full definition of the word aírō. Is a branch attached to the vine? Yes it is so the definition of something that is attached is the correct definition according to Strong’s concordance. Why did you so conveniently stop at verse 5? Is it because you don’t want to address verse 6?

“If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬
 
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aiki said in post #191:

[Re: John 15:1-8]

No where in the passage does John assert that works are absolutely necessary to abiding, only that they are the inevitable product of abiding.

Note that they aren't inevitable (John 15:2a), because of free will.

Similarly, Matthew 25:26,30 shows that even someone who was a servant of Jesus Christ can ultimately lose his salvation because of unrepentant laziness. One way that a Christian could desire to become lazy without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term), that he continues in it over time until his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12). Love for God means choosing to do what God says to do (1 John 5:3). So if one's love for God grows cold (Matthew 24:12), one will no longer choose to do what God says to do (John 14:24), meaning that one will become lazy in God's eyes (Matthew 25:26,30).

aiki said in post #191:

. . . for a great many of the SAL view, fear stands where love ought to stand.

Note that it should not be either/or, but both/and (Philippians 2:12b).

aiki said in post #191:

Good works are inevitable when one is saved . . .

Note that they aren't. That's why Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8).

*******

aiki said in post #194:

Matthew 7:21-22 has to do with not loving God.

In the sense of disobeying Him with regard to a sin (Matthew 7:23).

aiki said in post #194:

There is no such thing as "ultimate salvation."

There is (1 Peter 1:5).

aiki said in post #194:

. . . the idea that works have a salvific effect is exactly opposite the plain declaration of Scripture . . .

Only with regard to initial salvation, not ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8).

aiki said in post #194:

[Re: Casting out demons in Matthew 7:22]

. . . it is merely a testament to the power of Christ's name over the demonic.

Note that it can have no power for non-Christians (Acts 19:13-16), but casting out demons is one of the signs that someone is a true Christian (Mark 16:17).

aiki said in post #194:

[Re: Matthew 7:23]

. . . Jesus said very explicitly to them, "I NEVER knew you."

Note that Jesus also said very explicitly that the Pharisees swallowed camels (Matthew 23:24). That is, both cases can be hyperbole.

Compare how Judas was Jesus' familiar friend before he betrayed Him (Psalms 41:9, John 13:18).

That is, even though Judas the apostle was chosen/elect/saved/empowered like the other apostles (Luke 6:13-16, Mark 6:7-13, Matthew 19:28), he still subsequently became a devil (John 6:70-71) who would ultimately become unsaved (Mark 14:21), because he wrongly employed his free will to begin to love money more than Jesus Christ (John 12:3-6, Mark 14:3-11; cf. 1 Timothy 6:10, Matthew 6:24).

aiki said in post #194:

[Re: Hebrews 10:26-29]

If the person in view in the passage is a lost person, then the blood of the covenant sanctifies him only potentially, not actually.

Note that the person was saved because he "was sanctified" (Hebrews 10:29).

aiki said in post #194:

[Re: 2 Peter 2:20-22]

If the "they" in verse 20 refers to the false teachers plaguing the Church, then, clearly, the verse is not speaking of truly born-again people who had actually escaped the "pollutions of the world."

Note that it does, for truly born-again people can wrongly employ their free will to at some subsequent point become false teachers, such as by them being deceived into doing so. For compare Matthew 24:24, where the original Greek does not say: "if it were possible", in the sense of it not being possible. Instead, it says: "if possible", meaning that false Christs and false prophets will in our future perform great miracles by the power of Satan (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), as part of his intention to deceive as many of the elect as possible. The Bible nowhere says that it is impossible for any elect person to ever be deceived. Instead, Jesus Christ had started out in Matthew 24 by specifically warning the elect: "Take heed that no man deceive you" (Matthew 24:4), meaning that it is possible for the elect to be deceived, if they do not take heed to Jesus' warning regarding great-miracle-working false Christs and false prophets who will appear in our future (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20).

The elect can also be deceived in other ways, whether before they become Christians (Titus 3:3, Romans 7:11), or after (1 John 3:7; 1 Corinthians 6:9; 1 Corinthians 15:33, Galatians 6:7, Ephesians 5:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:3). The apostle Paul warns the elect: "The Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (1 Timothy 4:1). The time will come when some "shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (2 Timothy 4:4). For it is possible for Christians to commit apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

The fact that Christians can be deceived into committing apostasy does not mean that Satan is stronger than God, or that God would for no reason abandon a Christian, but means that the principle of the "deceivableness of unrighteousness" (2 Thessalonians 2:10, Proverbs 17:4a) applies even to real Christians.

aiki said in post #194:

. . . the One who dwells within us is and has promised to bring our fellowship with Him to full, eternal fruition (Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 12:2; etc.).

Regarding Philippians 1:6, it does mean that God will complete the work which He has begun in Christians. But other passages show that He will do this only if they continue to cooperate with Him, work along with Him (1 Corinthians 3:9; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12, Philippians 3:12-14), and do not wrongly employ their free will to, for example, become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Regarding 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, note that it does not require once-saved-always-saved, for God will not sanctify Christians who are wrongly employing their free will to continue in unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29). God remains faithful toward only those Christians who remain faithful toward Him (2 Timothy 2:12b, Romans 11:20-22).

Regarding Hebrews 12:2, the first part of the verse means that it is only because of Jesus Christ that Christians came to believe and have the ability to continue to believe to the end (Colossians 1:23, Hebrews 3:6,14). But Jesus does not take away Christians' free will, so it is possible for them to wrongly employ their free will to depart from the Christian faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Thessalonians 2:3), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b).

aiki said in post #194:

[Re: Romans 8:28-39]

There is no "saved so long as he loves God" caveat to Paul's remarks on the predestined salvation of the called believer.

Note that there is (Romans 8:28).

aiki said in post #194:

Love is not obedience itself . . .

Note that it is (1 John 5:3), for there is no love without obedience (John 14:21-24). That's why ultimate salvation requires obedience (Hebrews 5:9). But obedience is not assured, because of free will (Matthew 25:26,30). OSAS must ultimately negate free will.

*******

aiki said in post #195:

Jesus never says in John 15:1-5 that they can fall away.

That's what John 15:6 means, as does Hebrews 6:4-8.

aiki said in post #195:

In verse 2, the consequence is that the unfruitful branch is lifted up.

No, it is "taken away". For in John 15:2a the original Greek word (airo: G0142) translated as "taken away" can mean just that (Matthew 24:39). For John 15:2a is the same idea as Matthew 25:26,30.

aiki said in post #195:

In the context of the practices of the vinedressers of the time, "lifted up" is exactly the right translation.

No, for vinedressers of all times have taken away unfruitful branches.
 
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Oldmantook

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You have absolutely no idea what my knowledge of Koine Greek is or is not. None. You're merely assuming - imagining, really - what I know of Koine Greek. Seems to be par for the course with you.
Indeed; I have absolutely no idea - because you have not demonstrated any knowledge or application of the Greek language in formulating your interpretations. I on the other hand have had to explain it to you.

Who said anything about a "one-time choice"? I didn't. From the moment an unbeliever hears the Gospel until the time they stand before their Maker face-to-face, the choice to trust in Christ or not, to live according the flesh or Spirit, remains before them. See how all your blustering about Greek grammar is making you look foolish? I do.
For someone who hasn't demonstrated any knowledge of Greek grammar whatsoever, you seem to be oblivious on how you are perceived.

Yes, I know what a coordinating conjunction is. Paul is, as I explained, warning the "brethren" to whom he is writing that if they claim to be saved, to be brethren, but are not living according to the Spirit but the flesh, they are not saved at all but still lost. The appearance of "for" at the beginning of verse 13 does not defeat this understanding of Paul's words. As far as I'm concerned, you're the one grasping at straws.
Sorry FYI in the NT "brethren" always refers to believers - never the unsaved. Don't you teach that at your school?

Harm? Did I say anything about harm? No. But I did make it clear that I am not going to put myself in a place where you become the judge of my credentials. Doing so sets a precedent to which I refuse to become subject.
You made the claim and it's your prerogative to refuse to back it up.

I'm sure it does - to one who desperately wants to establish himself in a position superior to that of his opponent quite apart from the content of his arguments.
I'll ask you one more time since you appear incapable of explaining it but I'll give you another shot at it. How does Rom 8:13 being as 1st class conditional sentence in the Greek affect its interpretation? Care to demonstrate your knowledge of the Greek grammar?
 
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JohnB445 said in post #1:

. . . Born Again Calvinist will say its impossible to fall away once they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit they are eternally secure.

Regarding the sealing of the Holy Spirit, Ephesians 1:13-14, like Ephesians 4:30, 2 Corinthians 1:22, and 2 Corinthians 5:5, means that the measure of God's Holy Spirit which Christians have received now is like a down payment until their future redemption into physical immortality at Jesus Christ's Second Coming (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:20-21, Luke 24:39; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53). But this future redemption is not assured for every Christian, just as a down payment on a house does not always assure that the future purchase-in-full will take place, instead of it being cancelled for some reason, such as the sellers willfully ruining the house after receiving the down payment and before the purchase-in-full has taken place. For the Holy Spirit does not take away Christians' free will. So if they wrongly employ their free will to quench the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), and to do something like committing apostasy, or engaging in some sin without repentance, or becoming utterly lazy without repentance, then they will ultimately lose their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, Hebrews 10:26-29, Matthew 25:26,30; 1 Corinthians 9:27).
 
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