Open Theism

redleghunter

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Yes. Arminius was trying to preserve the function of grace. So said that no one can have faith without God electing them and bringing them to faith. However God elected those who he foresaw would respond and come to faith.
Yes that was his view and that of the Wesley brothers.

It is not an open theism view.

Now my experience here at CF and other places, some adhere to a semi-Arminianism, semi-Pelagianism, Finneyism. It's an explosive combination and would not be surprised open theism is held too.
 
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DZoolander

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But you exclude that possibility.
Actually, I don't. I believe in free will, which in my mind excludes the possibility of a God with perfect foreknowledge. It's actually the opposite of what you think I mean :)
 
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OzSpen

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Well the words literally exist in Scripture. You want references that open theists recognize the words existence? I never mind providing sources but that's a bizarre request.

It was you who stated: "Well I don't know what you want me to say, open theists have no issues with the words predestination and foreknowledge... yet you keep quoting them".

I asked for evidence (with references) from open theists who state they "have no issues with the words predestination and foreknowledge". I'm not interested in the 'words' for predestination and foreknowledge but the theology of these promoted by open theists.
 
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OzSpen

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Actually, I don't. I believe in free will, which in my mind excludes the possibility of a God with perfect foreknowledge. It's actually the opposite of what you think I mean :)

Well, please tell me what you mean?
 
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Christie insb

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And, yes, time is created,,,and the creator cannot be part of what He created.

See you around.
:)
I find this partof your comment puzzling. Since Jesus came down from heaven, this seems to contradict this idea. I think we get into theological trouble when we try to tell God what He can and cannot do.
God is outside time but I don't think that means that only one path is possible. Besides, God told Moses He was going to destroy the Israelites and Moses pleaded with God, and God relented. Was God lying to Moses when He said He was going to destroy Israel?
 
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OzSpen

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I find this partof your comment puzzling. Since Jesus came down from heaven, this seems to contradict this idea. I think we get into theological trouble when we try to tell God what He can and cannot do.
God is outside time but I don't think that means that only one path is possible. Besides, God told Moses He was going to destroy the Israelites and Moses pleaded with God, and God relented. Was God lying to Moses when He said He was going to destroy Israel?

God's mercy on that occasion! :idea:
 
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(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)

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I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?
I am sure this question has already been answered. But simply, "open theism" or sometimes called "open theology" or "freewill theology" basically defines God's omniscience as knowing all that can be known. Not knowing everything. Since the future cannot be known according to their theology, God cannot know the future. Open theism bases these beliefs on Scripture passages which describe God “changing His mind” or “being surprised” or “seeming to gain knowledge” (Genesis 6:6; 22:12; Exodus 32:14; Jonah 3:10).
 
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DZoolander

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Well, please tell me what you mean?
I don’t exclude the possibility of people choosing from a variety of options - which is what you asked/stated. My answer is that man has free will, and God doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge. That man can surprise God, by God’s design.
 
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Pneuma3

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I have what you might call a semi open view.

God has perfect foreknowledge of what he will do and nothing can stay his hand.
However where man is concerned because God gave man a freewill God does not know what man will do until man has set his heart on doing it. Thus scripture tells us God searches our hearts.. If God foreknew what we as individuals are going to do from a static foreknowledge from eternity past He would have no need to search our hearts.
 
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OzSpen

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I don’t exclude the possibility of people choosing from a variety of options - which is what you asked/stated. My answer is that man has free will, and God doesn’t have perfect foreknowledge. That man can surprise God, by God’s design.

DZ,

If God doesn't have 'perfect foreknowledge', what does this verse mean:

This God—his way is perfect;
the word of the Lord proves true;
he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him (Ps 18:30 ESV).

Would you call yourself an open theist?

From where do you gain the understanding that God does not have perfect foreknowledge?

Oz
 
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hedrick

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DZ,

If God doesn't have 'perfect foreknowledge', what does this verse mean:

This God—his way is perfect;
the word of the Lord proves true;
he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him (Ps 18:30 ESV).

Would you call yourself an open theist?

From where do you gain the understanding that God does not have perfect foreknowledge?

Oz
It's a big jump from God's way being perfect to he has perfect foreknowledge. The Psalm is talking about God's way as how he teaches us to live.
 
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DZoolander

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DZ,

If God doesn't have 'perfect foreknowledge', what does this verse mean:

This God—his way is perfect;
the word of the Lord proves true;
he is a shield for all those who take refuge in him (Ps 18:30 ESV).

Would you call yourself an open theist?

From where do you gain the understanding that God does not have perfect foreknowledge?

Oz
Yeah, I'm not really sure where to go with your first question for the reasons stated above.

As for where I "gain the understanding that God does not have perfect foreknowledge" - it's a matter of taking two beliefs - and seeing if they make sense together. If they don't - which do you think weighs more?

Subjectively - I think free will is more important (in the grand scheme of things) when it comes to a just and good God than His prognostication skills are. But that's just my take on it. You are perfectly free to feel differently. lol
 
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lesliedellow

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I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?

Open theists deny God’s omniscience because they can see that, along with his omnipotence, it implies absolute predestination. Unfortunately, the denial of omniscience leads to the collapse of virtually the whole of Christian theology.
 
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Christie insb

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Open theists deny God’s omniscience because they can see that, along with his omnipotence, it implies absolute predestination. Unfortunately, the denial of omniscience leads to the collapse of virtually the whole of Christian theology.
I don't see that. If God has predestined everything it would be like a high school chemistry teacher running an experiment he ran every year in December for the last 20 years, and performed it himself when he was in high school. I think God's creation is more complex than that. But God is always more than we can imagine, so I expect there is some element of predestination in there too.
Also if everybody is predestined why did Jesus tell the story of the wise and foolish virgins? There would be no reason to tell people not to be like the foolish virgins, because you either are foolish or you're not.
 
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DZoolander

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Open theists deny God’s omniscience because they can see that, along with his omnipotence, it implies absolute predestination. Unfortunately, the denial of omniscience leads to the collapse of virtually the whole of Christian theology.
And it's always weird for me to have to explain why perfect foreknowledge of things (omniscience) negates the idea of free will (I don't like to use the term predestination, because that term carries a lot of other baggage along with it that I don't care to get into)...because to me it's just so self evident.
 
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lesliedellow

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I don't see that. If God has predestined everything it would be like a high school chemistry teacher running an experiment he ran every year in December for the last 20 years, and performed it himself when he was in high school. I think God's creation is more complex than that. But God is always more than we can imagine, so I expect there is some element of predestination in there too.
Also if everybody is predestined why did Jesus tell the story of the wise and foolish virgins? There would be no reason to tell people not to be like the foolish virgins, because you either are foolish or you're not.

God creates Mr X.

God is omniscient, so he knows what Mr X’s eternal destiny will be.

God is also omnipotent, so if he wished Mr X’s eternal destiny to be something other than what he foresees, he could create Mr X with a different history in front of him.

Therefore, whether Mr X is destined for heaven or hell, God must have foreseen and approved of his destiny from the outset.
 
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DZoolander

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God creates Mr X.

God is omniscient, so he knows what Mr X’s eternal destiny will be.

God is also omnipotent, so if he wished Mr X’s eternal destiny to be something other than what he foresees, he could create Mr X with a different history in front of him.

Therefore, whether Mr X is destined for heaven or hell, God must have foreseen and approved of his destiny from the outset.
(the baggage I don't want to get into...lol I'd rather simply address whether or not it makes sense for God to have perfect foreknowledge. If that's denied - these other issues are moot)
 
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Christie insb

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It just doesn't make sense to warn or reprimand people then. If someone is bound for hell, this is the best they will ever have. No sense making them miserable in an attempt to get them to know God or flee their wicked deeds or even "come to Jesus." Besides, "He is not willing that any should perish."
 
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redleghunter

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Open theists deny God’s omniscience because they can see that, along with his omnipotence, it implies absolute predestination. Unfortunately, the denial of omniscience leads to the collapse of virtually the whole of Christian theology.
Thanks for the comment. Have to say your profile pic is a bit obtrusive. I feel the need to rotate my device for some reason.
 
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OzSpen

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It's a big jump from God's way being perfect to he has perfect foreknowledge. The Psalm is talking about God's way as how he teaches us to live.

hedrick,

Did Elihu make a true statement about God?

“Hear this, O Job;
stop and consider the wondrous works of God.
15 Do you know how God lays his command upon them
and causes the lightning of his cloud to shine?
16 Do you know the balancings of the clouds,
the wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge.... (Job 37:14-16 ESV).
Oz
 
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