How can you determine which is true?

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Tragically what you write is true. Those in the flock who are taught eternal security from the pulpit may feel secure when they may in fact not be secure due to disobedience. It is nonsensical to believe that the plethora of warnings against falling away throughout the NT epistles are for unbelievers only. I have asked more than a few Christians who hold to eternal security if they would take the mark of the beast. No one has answered that they would take it despite their closely held belief that there is nothing that can snatch them out of the Father's hand. That says it all about the the fallacy of their soteriological doctrine.

Eternal security eliminates the necessity to abide. That’s the danger of eternal security. My brother foolishly believes that Jesus died to pay for his sins so because all his sins are paid for he can live however he wants. He won’t listen to reason and says if God can’t accept him for who he is then oh well. I pray that God will open his eyes before it’s too late. He won’t listen to me. :(
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Eternal security eliminates the necessity to abide. That’s the danger of eternal security. My brother foolishly believes that Jesus died to pay for his sins so because all his sins are paid for he can live however he wants. He won’t listen to reason and says if God can’t accept him for who he is then oh well. I pray that God will open his eyes before it’s too late. He won’t listen to me. :(
I'll try to remember your brother in prayer. Many have been deceived. I was taught eternal security by my seminary professors - all of who were Reformed in their belief. I just accepted what I was taught without questioning what I was taught. It was several years later that I began to question what I was taught and had to unlearn what I learned in order to understand Scripture correctly.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
I'll try to remember your brother in prayer. Many have been deceived. I was taught eternal security by my seminary professors - all of who were Reformed in their belief. I just accepted what I was taught without questioning what I was taught. It was several years later that I began to question what I was taught and had to unlearn what I learned in order to understand Scripture correctly.

Same here. I started off believing in faith alone and eternal security then after much study began to see flaws in the beliefs. I still believe in faith alone just a different understanding of the term than most people believe. Many believe we can live having not done any good works we will be saved simply by believing. I believe perhaps this could be true for those who do not have the ability or opportunity to do good works. But for those who are just being lazy or lukewarm they will not receive salvation because they did not abide. As for eternal security it didn’t take long to see that there were many discrepancies in this idea.
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
PERFECT ! YES !
As you sought God's Will and His Kingdom, READING HIS WORD, He Taught You Truth.

QUOTE="BNR32FAN, Same here. I started off believing in faith alone and eternal security then after much study began to see flaws in the beliefs. I still believe in faith alone just a different understanding of the term than most people believe. Many believe we can live having not done any good works we will be saved simply by believing. I believe perhaps this could be true for those who do not have the ability or opportunity to do good works. But for those who are just being lazy or lukewarm they will not receive salvation because they did not abide. As for eternal security it didn’t take long to see that there were many discrepancies in this idea.[/QUOTE
 
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Must I repeat my request yet another time?? How can Paul write to the unbeliever IF you live according to the flesh.... The unbeliever can only live according to the flesh; it is not a matter of IF.

And as I pointed out, this is not true of the unbeliever who has heard the Gospel, which is the "power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes." (Romans 1:16) Having heard the Good News of salvation, the unbeliever can choose to be saved and live according to the Spirit, or remain lost and continue to live according to the flesh. I don't hold to the Calvinist notion that a lost person is incapable even of recognizing their lostness and the choice that exists between eternal hell and eternity with God.

Only a believer can choose if he lives according to the flesh or according to the Spirit. I'm still waiting for your explanation of how "if" applies to unbelievers. Shall I wait any longer??

No, you should simply more carefully read what I write. See above.

You ignore the IF FACTOR - unless you reconcile that little word with you write, then what you believe is a non-factor.

The ignoring is all on your side, not mine. I have already explained in the very post to which you're replying here that the "if" applies to unbelievers who have heard the Gospel and so are faced with a choice to live according to the Spirit or the flesh. They can choose to receive salvation in Christ and be indwelt by the Spirit and live thereafter according to, and by the power of, the Spirit, or not.

Is verse 12 not part of v.13? Apparently you have a blind eye to the conjunction which connects v.13 to v.12. That conjunction is the word "FOR." The word "for" indicates that Paul's warning in v.13 is FOR the brethren in v.12. Any further questions?

None of this actually deals with what I wrote. As I already explained, Paul was pointing out in verse 13 that any "brother" (or sister) claiming salvation but living according to the flesh demonstrated, not that they had lost their salvation, but that they had yet to be saved. The word "for" does nothing to defeat this understanding of Paul's words.

What do you suppose "living according to the Spirit means?? If you are living by the Spirit, your life should manifest good works. If you are not, you life will certainly not manifest good works.

Certainly. But Paul does not emphasize works in his contrast of a lost and a saved person in Romans 8. It is the presence of the Spirit within a person, controlling and leading them, that distinguishes that person from one who is lost.

Really? Tell me which seminary and what do you teach? Do you even teach them that v.13 is a 1st class conditional sentence and what that means in the Greek? Why don't you explain to me what a 1st class conditional sentence is and how it effects the meaning of v.13? I'll wait for your explanation.

Am I to give an account of myself to you, now? Am I to answer whatever ad hoc quiz you feel you'd like to give me? I think not. Pigs'll fly before I let some anonymous stranger online press me into defending my credentials. My writing on this website speaks for itself.
 
Upvote 0

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Same here. I started off believing in faith alone and eternal security then after much study began to see flaws in the beliefs. I still believe in faith alone just a different understanding of the term than most people believe. Many believe we can live having not done any good works we will be saved simply by believing. I believe perhaps this could be true for those who do not have the ability or opportunity to do good works. But for those who are just being lazy or lukewarm they will not receive salvation because they did not abide. As for eternal security it didn’t take long to see that there were many discrepancies in this idea.
I am in agreement. Eternal securists are fond of pointing out that the thief on the cross didn't have do anything except believe. They neglect the fact that the thief on the cross neither had the time nor the ability to do anything as he was nailed in place. Same thing with genuine death bed conversions as a person who is close to death cannot do anything except believe/trust. Not so the case with other Christians, some of who have a lifetime to die to self and hear and follow the Lord. Some choose to remain disobedient. That is why Jesus judges the 7 Churches in Revelation based upon their works or lack of works which is the litmus test of a genuine faith.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
SAL (saved-and-lost) folk like to paint these cartoons, Strawmen versions, of the OSAS perspective and then knock them down, congratulating themselves for doing so as though they have proved their own position in the process. It is precisely because these cartoons are easy to knock down that they are erected in the first place, however. The actual OSAS position has not been dealt with, only a Strawman version of it.

Scripture is crystal clear: salvation is not obtained by works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 2:16; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5-6). It follows logically that if one cannot do works to obtain salvation, then one cannot do works to retain salvation. To argue that works keep one's salvation secure, that works maintain one's salvation, is to argue for salvation-by-works just one step removed. This is not an option, as Scripture clearly and explicitly indicates. Works have no salvific power at any point in a believer's walk with God. And if they have no power to save, then they ought not to be urged upon the believer as though they do.

SAL folks seem to have a problem with the doctrine of justification, too. Scripture is unequivocal that we are made acceptable to God by the perfect righteousness of Christ being imputed to us (Romans 3:21-24; Romans 4:23-25; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:9, etc). We are "accepted in the Beloved" who is Christ (Ephesians 1:6). It is also plainly stated in God's word that this is the only basis upon which God accepts us (John 3:17; John 14:6; Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:18; 1 Timothy 2:5, etc.). Because we are clothed in Christ's righteousness, God declares - forensically - that we are fully justified before Him. This is an uncontroversial fact of Scripture. And yet, SAL proponents must deny these things in order to hold to their SAL perspective. If salvation is at all and at any time dependent upon the believer, upon his works, then it is Christ plus the works of the believer that make them acceptable to God. Scripture, however, flatly rules out such an idea, as the above Scripture references amply show.

The SAL viewpoint wants to use a craven fear of God, of His wrath and judgment, as a spur to good works. Such a motivation for righteous living is, though, ultimately Self-centered. It is a fear for Self, it is a desire for Self-preservation, that the SAL crowd want to use to provoke holy living. But this is utterly contrary to Scripture! Self must die if fellowship with God is to be experienced. (Matthew 16:24-25; Romans 6:11; Galatians 5:24, etc.) The First and Great Commandment isn't to fear God but to love Him wholeheartedly. As the apostle John points out, though, fear interferes with doing so:

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.


If John is correct, a believer cannot love and fear God at the same time! If there is love for God in the heart of the believer, fear of Him is "cast out." But not for the SAL proponent. No, one cannot be trusted to obey God purely out of a love for Him. One must be afraid of Him, of the prospect of lost salvation and the terrible judgment of eternal hell, if one is to walk rightly with God. But this is totally contrary to what the apostle John writes:

1 John 4:16-17
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.


Salvation is constituted of the knowledge of God's love and belief in it such that a person is moved to abide in that love (in the Person of indwelling Holy Spirit). And when they do, they no longer fear God's judgment, they no longer dread the prospect of hell, but may stand boldly before God in the Day of Judgment. How different this thinking is from what I so often encounter in the thinking of the proponents of the SAL perspective here on CF!

The apostle Paul agrees with John. He, too, rules out fear as a motivator for Christian living, saying that any word spoken, or wisdom shared, or sacrificial deed done apart from a deep love of God (and others) is spiritually useless:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.


Why, then, does the SAL proponent hold so fiercely to fear? Well, because it is the "beginning of wisdom," don't you know. Certainly, in bringing a person to salvation it is. But for those who are God's children, fear ought to be cast out by love. But this requires that Self die. One cannot properly love God and Self at the same time. And this is where the real sticking point is for many of the SAL folks I know. They will not give up Self. It has become for them the prime motivator for holy living! They seem not to have realized how anathema to God that Self is! And until they do, they will continue to live in fear, thinking themselves pious in it, never seeing that Self has supplanted God.
 
Upvote 0

Bible2+

Matthew 4:4
Sep 14, 2015
3,001
375
✟91,195.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
aiki said in post #165:

. . . the "if" applies to unbelievers who have heard the Gospel and so are faced with a choice to live according to the Spirit or the flesh.

Note that is a choice for believers. For Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

Bible2+

Matthew 4:4
Sep 14, 2015
3,001
375
✟91,195.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
aiki said in post #167:

. . . salvation is not obtained by works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 2:16; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5-6).

Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9). But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b). For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26). And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

aiki said in post #167:

It follows logically that if one cannot do works to obtain salvation, then one cannot do works to retain salvation.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event, just as the birth of an infant is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event.

Also, God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26). Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26). That is why our ultimate salvation will depend on both our faith and our continued works of faith (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21). If a Christian refuses to continue to perform works of faith, without repentance, he will ultimately lose his salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), just as if someone stops himself from breathing by hanging himself, he will die.

The breathing analogy (James 2:26) does not include the automatic aspect of breathing. For Christians must be careful to maintain good works (Titus 3:8). The analogies in the Bible do not include every aspect of the analogous thing. For example, Christians, born-again people, being like newborn babies (1 Peter 2:2), does not mean that Christians have no ability to talk, walk, or control their bowels.
 
  • Haha
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

Bible2+

Matthew 4:4
Sep 14, 2015
3,001
375
✟91,195.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
aiki said in post #167:

The SAL viewpoint wants to use a craven fear of God, of His wrath and judgment, as a spur to good works.

Note that Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6-7).

aiki said in post #167:

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Oldmantook

Well-Known Member
Jan 10, 2017
3,633
1,526
64
USA
✟99,173.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And as I pointed out, this is not true of the unbeliever who has heard the Gospel, which is the "power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes." (Romans 1:16) Having heard the Good News of salvation, the unbeliever can choose to be saved and live according to the Spirit, or remain lost and continue to live according to the flesh. I don't hold to the Calvinist notion that a lost person is incapable even of recognizing their lostness and the choice that exists between eternal hell and eternity with God.
It's quite obvious by your response that you lack basic knowledge of Koine Greek. If you parsed this verse you would know that the Greek word ζῆτε is a present tense verb. It is correctly translated as "living" according to the flesh.... Thus it is impossible as you claim for this verse to be referring to a one-time choice whether to live according to the flesh or Spirit as in when one decides to obey or disobey the gospel message. If that were true, Paul would have opted to used verbs in the aorist tense which convey punctiliar action.

None of this actually deals with what I wrote. As I already explained, Paul was pointing out in verse 13 that any "brother" (or sister) claiming salvation but living according to the flesh demonstrated, not that they had lost their salvation, but that they had yet to be saved. The word "for" does nothing to defeat this understanding of Paul's words.
FYI "for" as used in this verse is a coordinating conjunction. Do you know what that means? It connects both verses. Paul references BRETHREN in v.12 so he is specifically addressing the brethren in v.13. Brethren never refers to the unsaved or persons claiming to be saved. At this point, you are grasping at straws.

Am I to give an account of myself to you, now? Am I to answer whatever ad hoc quiz you feel you'd like to give me? I think not. Pigs'll fly before I let some anonymous stranger online press me into defending my credentials. My writing on this website speaks for itself.
Why not? You made your claim and I asked you about it. What harm is that? Aren't you prepared to be transparent? Now days anyone who teaches at an educational institution has his/her credentials and affiliation plainly listed online with that institution. Your refusal to do so despite your claim speaks volumes. Moreover, I asked you for your interpretation of how Rom 8:13 being a first class conditional sentence affects its interpretation. You also declined to do that. I can only surmise that you are incapable of doing so. If you teach as you so claim, that should be a very simple thing for you to do.
 
Upvote 0

fhansen

Oldbie
Sep 3, 2011
13,884
3,525
✟320,712.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
And I see that as lack of faith.
I see it as honesty, and consistency with Scripture overall along with the historical understanding.
If the blood of Jesus has saved you from sin and created a new creation in you, adopted you as a son and sealed you until the Day of Redemption in God Himself, the Holy Spirit, then the lack of faith comes from God not being able to firmly hold you in His Hand. Jesus failure to loose what the Father has given Him (which Jesus says NONE Are lost, but the son of perdition (Judas)) and the lack of faith that God sealed you in Himself and you are a co-heir with Christ as an adopted Son.

It is not whether WE are enough, but are GOD’S promises and Justness enough.

Lack of faith in God.

God does the holding and is just and righteous to keep HIS PROMISES
Of course God can be trusted-we're the wildcard in it all-which is why salvation is something that is worked out, together with He who works in us. God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life, who will persevere and who will not.
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
SAL (saved-and-lost) folk like to paint these cartoons, Strawmen versions, of the OSAS perspective and then knock them down, congratulating themselves for doing so as though they have proved their own position in the process. It is precisely because these cartoons are easy to knock down that they are erected in the first place, however. The actual OSAS position has not been dealt with, only a Strawman version of it.

Scripture is crystal clear: salvation is not obtained by works (Ephesians 2:8-9; Galatians 2:16; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5-6). It follows logically that if one cannot do works to obtain salvation, then one cannot do works to retain salvation. To argue that works keep one's salvation secure, that works maintain one's salvation, is to argue for salvation-by-works just one step removed. This is not an option, as Scripture clearly and explicitly indicates. Works have no salvific power at any point in a believer's walk with God. And if they have no power to save, then they ought not to be urged upon the believer as though they do.

SAL folks seem to have a problem with the doctrine of justification, too. Scripture is unequivocal that we are made acceptable to God by the perfect righteousness of Christ being imputed to us (Romans 3:21-24; Romans 4:23-25; 1 Corinthians 1:30; Philippians 3:9, etc). We are "accepted in the Beloved" who is Christ (Ephesians 1:6). It is also plainly stated in God's word that this is the only basis upon which God accepts us (John 3:17; John 14:6; Romans 5:9; Ephesians 2:18; 1 Timothy 2:5, etc.). Because we are clothed in Christ's righteousness, God declares - forensically - that we are fully justified before Him. This is an uncontroversial fact of Scripture. And yet, SAL proponents must deny these things in order to hold to their SAL perspective. If salvation is at all and at any time dependent upon the believer, upon his works, then it is Christ plus the works of the believer that make them acceptable to God. Scripture, however, flatly rules out such an idea, as the above Scripture references amply show.

The SAL viewpoint wants to use a craven fear of God, of His wrath and judgment, as a spur to good works. Such a motivation for righteous living is, though, ultimately Self-centered. It is a fear for Self, it is a desire for Self-preservation, that the SAL crowd want to use to provoke holy living. But this is utterly contrary to Scripture! Self must die if fellowship with God is to be experienced. (Matthew 16:24-25; Romans 6:11; Galatians 5:24, etc.) The First and Great Commandment isn't to fear God but to love Him wholeheartedly. As the apostle John points out, though, fear interferes with doing so:

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.


If John is correct, a believer cannot love and fear God at the same time! One must be afraid of Him, of the prospect of lost salvation and the terrible judgment of eternal hell, if one is to walk rightly with God. But this is totally contrary to what the apostle John writes:

1 John 4:16-17
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.


Salvation is constituted of the knowledge of God's love and belief in it such that a person is moved to abide in that love (in the Person of indwelling Holy Spirit). And when they do, they no longer fear God's judgment, they no longer dread the prospect of hell, but may stand boldly before God in the Day of Judgment. How different this thinking is from what I so often encounter in the thinking of the proponents of the SAL perspective here on CF!

The apostle Paul agrees with John. He, too, rules out fear as a motivator for Christian living, saying that any word spoken, or wisdom shared, or sacrificial deed done apart from a deep love of God (and others) is spiritually useless:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.


Why, then, does the SAL proponent hold so fiercely to fear? Well, because it is the "beginning of wisdom," don't you know. Certainly, in bringing a person to salvation it is. But for those who are God's children, fear ought to be cast out by love. But this requires that Self die. One cannot properly love God and Self at the same time. And this is where the real sticking point is for many of the SAL folks I know. They will not give up Self. It has become for them the prime motivator for holy living! They seem not to have realized how anathema to God that Self is! And until they do, they will continue to live in fear, thinking themselves pious in it, never seeing that Self has supplanted God.

You misunderstand our position my friend. We do not claim that salvation is contingent upon our works it is contingent upon our faith and abiding in Christ. Yes you are correct my friend that salvation is not obtained by works but here’s where your making your mistake. “It follows logically that if one cannot do works to obtain salvation, then one cannot do works to retain salvation”. Let’s not use logic to determine the truth of God’s word instead we must let the scriptures do the teaching. Using logic often results in making assumptions that can contradict what the scriptures say. John 15:1-8 says that works are absolutely necessary for abiding in Christ which is absolutely necessary for salvation. What you are suggesting is that a person can abide in Christ without works which is contradictory to scripture.

“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:5‬

We do not do good works to abide in Christ we do good works as a result of abiding in Christ. Look at the way Jesus worded this. He that abieth in Me beareth much fruit. Not he that beareth much fruit abideth in Me. Those who are bearing much fruit are abiding. He then goes on to reinforce this by saying for apart from Me you can do nothing. This means we are not trying to abide by bearing fruit we are bearing fruit as a result of currently abiding. It is our faith that produces the works not the works that produces our faith. Notice James 2:14.

“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬

Brother James is making the point that a faith that does not produce works is not a saving faith. He then goes on to say it is a dead and useless or barren faith. It is of no value. Again it is not the works by which we receive grace but by our faith. Moreover the type of faith we have. James is explaining two different types of faith here in James 2. He mentions a saving faith that produces works and a dead and useless faith that does not produce works which is not a saving faith. Both James 2:14-26 and John 15:1-8 is saying if we have a genuine faith and we abide in Christ you can see the evidence of our faith. Those who advocate eternal security suggest that some may do works and some may not but John 15:1-6 explains what happens to those who do not do good works or bear fruit. Verse 2 says they are cut off/removed/detached from the vine (Jesus). If you care to search the definition of the original Greek word you need to look at the definition that is given pertaining to something that is attached to something. Many OSAS advocates say this means to be lifted up but there is a specific definition pertaining to something that is attached to something. It means to be removed or detached. Being removed or detached from Jesus does not result in salvation unless the person repents. But even after repentance we are still required to abide which will result in bearing fruit. There are more indications pertaining to loss of salvation in verse 6. Look at the definition of the word cast or thrown. It means to throw away without care or regard often violently or intensely, to thrust down. Look at the word wither meaning to dry up or waste away. Then the definition of burned. To be burned or consumed by fire. So the result we have is if someone does not produce fruit they do not abide in Christ and Christ does not abide in them. The Father cuts off or removes them from the vine (Jesus). They are then carelessly thrown away (discarded) to wither (dry up and waste away) then carelessly thrown (again discarded) into the fire to be burned. Nothing about this can result in salvation. If you like I can post the actual full definitions of these words I’m just trying to keep this post from being too long.

The SAL viewpoint wants to use a craven fear of God, of His wrath and judgment, as a spur to good works. Such a motivation for righteous living is, though, ultimately Self-centered. It is a fear for Self, it is a desire for Self-preservation, that the SAL crowd want to use to provoke holy living.

This is not true at all. Are we not devoted to serving and pleasing those we love? Surely it is not by fear that we do things to please those we love. I would maintain that we do things to please them because of our love. The same applies to our love of God. If we do nothing to please those we love do we really love them? Is there someone in your life that you truly love that you have never done anything to please them? I can’t think of a single person in my life that I love that I have not done things to please them and make them happy. I did not do those things out of fear. So if we do nothing to please God can we say that we do honestly love Him?

Now about the verses you posted. It’s easy to find bits and pieces of scriptures to support both of our points of view but we must read the entire message to get the full understanding of what the authors are trying to say. In every gospel and every epistle obedience is absolutely mandatory for salvation. Not because our works earn our salvation but because if we truly love God we will do as He commands. Just one example you quoted 1 John 4:16-17 but John continues his message in 1 John 5:1-3.

“Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is begotten of God: and whosoever loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. Hereby we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and do his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:1-3‬

I’m going to stop here because I think I’ve made enough points for now. Have a blessed day and a Merry Christian my friend.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Note that Christians are commanded to fear God (1 Peter 2:17, Luke 12:5, Hebrews 12:28-29; 2 Corinthians 7:1, Ephesians 5:21, Acts 9:31). They must remain in fear of being cut off the same as non-Christians if they do not continue in God's goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46). They must work out their own ultimate salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12b; 1 Peter 1:17, Romans 2:6-8), knowing the terror of the future judgment of Christians by Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:10-11) at His Second Coming, when some Christians will end up losing their salvation because of unrepentant sin (Luke 12:45-46, Hebrews 10:26-29), or unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a), or apostasy (Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 6:4-8).

Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God. For Satan knows that it is the lack of a fear of God which keeps people in unrepentant sin (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and it is by the fear of God that people depart from sin (Proverbs 16:6b, Proverbs 14:27, Proverbs 3:7). And Satan can make his deceptions appear as if they are on the side of good (2 Corinthians 11:14), when in fact his deceptions reject the sound doctrine of God's Word the Bible (1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4), when the whole Bible is taken into consideration, instead of just taking a verse by itself and trying to misapply it (e.g. Matthew 4:6-7).



It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18). But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

I believe this type of fear is more of a respect for God’s authority. Much like we would fear our father when we were young children and we misbehaved. I believe our faith begins with fear but later our love for God grows. I doubt anyone came to faith loving God from day one. At least that is how I began. In the very beginning I did not know God and for a long time questioned my love for Him. I wanted to feel love in my heart for God but was unsure if it was genuine for several months. Finally I came to the realization that I did love God otherwise I wouldn’t be so distraught about questioning my love for Him. Over time my love for God grew more and more and now I have absolutely no doubt that I love Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: fhansen
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And as I pointed out, this is not true of the unbeliever who has heard the Gospel, which is the "power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes." (Romans 1:16) Having heard the Good News of salvation, the unbeliever can choose to be saved and live according to the Spirit, or remain lost and continue to live according to the flesh. I don't hold to the Calvinist notion that a lost person is incapable even of recognizing their lostness and the choice that exists between eternal hell and eternity with God.

How do we know who believes and who doesn’t? 1 John 5:1-3
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Bible2+

Matthew 4:4
Sep 14, 2015
3,001
375
✟91,195.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
fhansen said in post #172:

Of course God can be trusted-we're the wildcard in it all-which is why salvation is something that is worked out, together with He who works in us.

That's right.

For 2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, together with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

fhansen said in post #172:

God, alone, knows with perfect certainty whose names are written in the Book of Life, who will persevere and who will not.

Any Christian can ultimately have his name blotted out of the Book of Life (Revelation 3:5). He can ultimately lose his salvation, and be cast into the second death of the lake of fire (Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:14-15), if he does not overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26, Hebrews 6:11-12, Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Matthew 24:9-13).

Revelation 3:5, 1 John 5:4-5, 1 John 2:13-14, and 1 John 4:4 do not contradict this. For these verses do not give any assurance that every Christian will overcome to the end. All that the 1 John verses give assurance of is that Christians can presently be overcomers. And all that Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, and Revelation 2:26 give assurance of is that those Christian who do overcome to the end will not have their names blotted out of the Book of Life, and will not be cast into the lake of fire.

An example of Christians "overcoming" (Greek: nikao: G3528) (Revelation 3:5) or "getting the victory" (nikao) (Revelation 15:2) to the end is found in Revelation 15:2, which refers to Christians who will be willing to be killed by the future Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast"), instead of worshipping him to save their mortal lives during his future, worldwide persecution against Biblical Christians (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Christians will be able to spiritually overcome the future Antichrist and Satan by not loving their lives unto the death (Revelation 12:11). But it is also possible for Christians to fail to overcome, and so in the end to lose their salvation from hell (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11), if they are fearful (Revelation 21:7-8) of being tortured and killed (Matthew 10:28, Revelation 2:10), to the point where they will wrongly employ their free will to renounce Jesus Christ and His Gospel, to commit apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6), to keep from getting tortured and killed (Mark 8:35-38; 2 Timothy 2:12, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21, Luke 8:13).
 
Upvote 0

yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
Jan 6, 2005
39,944
11,098
okie
✟214,996.00
Faith
Anabaptist
How do we know who believes and who doesn’t? 1 John 5:1-3
Even with that, and all Scripture, and thousands of witnesses,
most "we" don't know specifically. Most do not even know generally.
Remember,
according to Scripture, who believes ? D e m o n s believe, and shudder in terror knowing their judgment.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BNR32FAN
Upvote 0

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
For Hebrews 10:26-29 shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22).

Interesting. Well, for starters, I don't think Hebrews 10:26-29 is speaking of a believer losing their salvation. Why?

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

What does it mean to live such that there is no more sacrifice for sins? Well, it is important to note that the word translated "sin" in this verse is actually in Greek a present participle, better translated "sinning." It describes, not a single willful sin, but a persistent, ongoing, manner of wicked living plainly inconsistent with the behaviour of a truly born-again believer (1 John 3:10). In light of this, the verse is speaking of a lost person, not a saved one, and so it makes perfect sense for such a person, who has known the truth of the Gospel but rejected it for a life of sin, to be described as one for whom the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary "no longer remains." Truly, to know the Way of Salvation and to spurn it is to cut oneself off from the sole sacrifice for sin God will accept and to become guilty of the disrespect and insult toward God described in verse 29.

Isn't the writer of Hebrews speaking to "brethren"? Yes, but among the brethren there were "tares," false converts who thought of themselves as members of the Church, participating in the community of believers as such, but who were not actually born-again. It is such a "brother" to whom the writer of Hebrews is writing and referring in verses 26-29, I believe.

Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians.

But we know that there were false converts among the genuine believers of the Early Church (Matthew 7:22-23; Matthew 13:24-30; 2 Corinthians 13:5; James 5:19-20; Titus 1:16, etc.), "tares," who thought of themselves as brethren in the faith, participating in the life and work of the Church, and whose close involvement with the Church would make it possible for the writer of Hebrews to refer to under the umbrella of the title "brethren."


None of the verses/passages you cite here teach that one can lose one's salvation. For every one of them it perfectly possible to argue, not for a saved-and-lost construction, but a never-was-saved one.

One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit a sin without repentance would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christians that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they commit a sin without repentance.

Or such a course into sin could simply indicate that the "Christian" was never really saved to being with. As far as I'm concerned, this view is far more consistent with the whole counsel of Scripture than to assert a SAL teaching.

Initial salvation is indeed by grace through faith in Jesus Christ without any works at all on our part (Romans 4:1-5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

There is no such thing as "initial salvation." Not once does this phrase appear in the New Testament, nor is such a thing implied. Just like a physical birth, one's spiritual birth is a one-time event, not a protracted process taking place over the span of years. And this is why again and again the writers of the New Testament spoke of the salvation/conversion/redemption/second birth of their readers as a fully-accomplished fact. (Romans 6:1-6; Corinthians 1:2; 30-31; Ephesians 1:3-7; 2:8-9; Colossians 1:14-15; 1 John 5:11-13, etc.)

But note that other passages show that Christians must have both faith and continued works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), if they are to obtain ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Matthew 25:26,30, Philippians 2:12b, Philippians 3:11-14; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9, Hebrews 6:10-12; 2 Peter 1:10-11, John 15:2a; 1 John 2:17b).

These verses cannot indicate a works-salvation as you propose because such a thing is flatly denied in Scripture. Works do not have any salvific power. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5-6) Works manifest true salvation, but they don't obtain or maintain it.

For Christians must continue to do righteous deeds if they are to continue to be righteous (1 John 3:7, James 2:24,26).

Nope. Every genuine believer is made righteous - justified - by faith in Christ (Acts 13:39; Romans 3:22; Romans 5:17; 1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9, etc.). No other righteousness but Christ's perfect righteousness will God accept. Our works, however righteous, will never be perfect as Christ's righteousness is and so we must have his righteousness imputed to us so that we may be justified by God. We are, then, made righteous - perfectly righteous - in Christ and cannot add to this righteousness by way of our own imperfect human righteousness. Though we are righteous in our daily living by being righteous, our righteous standing before God spiritually is anchored in Christ, not our behaviour.

And there is no assurance that Christians will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Perhaps in more than any respect soteriologically, this is the place where I disagree most strongly with the SAL proponent. I don't believe that when a person is indwelt by the Almighty God of the Universe in the Person of the Holy Spirit, that they can ever be the same again, that they can simply slide back into an entirely wicked life. Thinking that a genuine believer can do so is to maintain a very low view of God and His transforming power. It is a very weak God who cannot transform sufficiently the sinner to overcome sin; it is a very impotent God whose presence within a person leaves them fundamentally unchanged in their desires and behaviour. Paul, though, describes a very life-changing experience of God:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.


Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.


What has happened, at least in part, I believe, is that the modern Church is increasingly occupied by false converts. And these false converts look at one another and see an absence of the transforming, empowering work of the Spirit and think to themselves that such "Christian" living, such a weak effect of God upon their lives, is normal. As a consequence, much of the Church has come to expect very little of spiritual regeneration, of being born-again. Some even think it is possible to be truly saved and return to a life of sin. Real conversion, true spiritual birth is much different, however. It is fundamentally, powerfully and permanently transforming and there is no mistaking it. Sadly, such conversions are becoming more and more rare.

Initial salvation, being born again (John 3:3,7; 1 Peter 1:23-25; 1 Peter 2:2), is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event, just as the birth of an infant is instant, in the sense of it being a one-time event.

As I have already pointed out, no such phrase ("initial salvation") is used by any of the writers of the New Testament, nor is such an idea implied.

Also, God grants initial salvation by faith without works (Ephesians 2:8-9), just as infants are born without their works. But just as an infant after he is born needs to begin to breath, and then to continue to breathe, if he is to remain alive, so a new Christian after he is born again needs to begin to perform works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law), and to continue to perform them (Titus 3:8), if his faith is to remain alive (James 2:26).

No such an extension of the birth analogy is ever made in Scripture. None. And this is so because to do so would be to advocate for works-salvation which Scripture flatly denies. Paul and John both write instead that Christ is the very life of the believer (Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4; John 15:5; 1 John 5:11-12) the source of all they are and do as born-again children of God. He is their "breath," their spiritual "heartbeat," the life-giving Vine from whom all branches sprout, and grow, and bear fruit. At no point in the believer's walk with God is it their responsibility to create life within themselves, to manufacture from their own good deeds the life of Christ. Like begets like. Cats beget cats; dogs beget dogs; and we can only beget more of ourselves. Only Christ can beget himself in us, which he does by the Holy Spirit. A new spiritual babe in Christ, then, will "breathe" inevitably and naturally as a consequence of the life of Christ within, not by a fearful working to maintain membership in God's family. To offer a better analogy: An apple tree begets apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree. This is the crucial difference between biblical Christian living and the works-salvation stuff you're espousing.

For faith is like a body, and works of faith are like the breathing (spirit) of that body (James 2:26).

The "spirit" or "pneuma" of the body does not refer to the act of breathing but to the human soul or spirit that inhabits and animates the body. The body works, it functions, because the human spirit exists within it. Take away the spirit or soul of the person, as happens at death, and the body is a lifeless lump of tissue. So, too, the faith of a believer that does not manifest itself in corresponding works. If the believer's faith is of a saving sort, rather than merely intellectual or emotional, it will inevitably give rise to works. But if the believer's faith is not of this sort and does not produce corresponding works, it is "dead." A lack of works, though, does not make such a faith dead; it merely reveals that it is dead.

Faith without works of faith will die, just as a body without breathing will die (James 2:26).

Works don't sustain faith anymore than apples fruiting from an apple tree sustain the tree. Works merely manifest the nature of one's faith, they express that faith; they don't bring that faith into existence, or give it life. The spiritual life of a believer is in Christ, not their works. (John 15:5; Colossians 3:4)
 
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,111
7,243
Dallas
✟873,878.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Interesting. Well, for starters, I don't think Hebrews 10:26-29 is speaking of a believer losing their salvation. Why?

Hebrews 10:26-29
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

What does it mean to live such that there is no more sacrifice for sins? Well, it is important to note that the word translated "sin" in this verse is actually in Greek a present participle, better translated "sinning." It describes, not a single willful sin, but a persistent, ongoing, manner of wicked living plainly inconsistent with the behaviour of a truly born-again believer (1 John 3:10). In light of this, the verse is speaking of a lost person, not a saved one, and so it makes perfect sense for such a person, who has known the truth of the Gospel but rejected it for a life of sin, to be described as one for whom the sacrifice of Christ at Calvary "no longer remains." Truly, to know the Way of Salvation and to spurn it is to cut oneself off from the sole sacrifice for sin God will accept and to become guilty of the disrespect and insult toward God described in verse 29.

Isn't the writer of Hebrews speaking to "brethren"? Yes, but among the brethren there were "tares," false converts who thought of themselves as members of the Church, participating in the community of believers as such, but who were not actually born-again. It is such a "brother" to whom the writer of Hebrews is writing and referring in verses 26-29, I believe.



But we know that there were false converts among the genuine believers of the Early Church (Matthew 7:22-23; Matthew 13:24-30; 2 Corinthians 13:5; James 5:19-20; Titus 1:16, etc.), "tares," who thought of themselves as brethren in the faith, participating in the life and work of the Church, and whose close involvement with the Church would make it possible for the writer of Hebrews to refer to under the umbrella of the title "brethren."



None of the verses/passages you cite here teach that one can lose one's salvation. For every one of them it perfectly possible to argue, not for a saved-and-lost construction, but a never-was-saved one.



Or such a course into sin could simply indicate that the "Christian" was never really saved to being with. As far as I'm concerned, this view is far more consistent with the whole counsel of Scripture than to assert a SAL teaching.



There is no such thing as "initial salvation." Not once does this phrase appear in the New Testament, nor is such a thing implied. Just like a physical birth, one's spiritual birth is a one-time event, not a protracted process taking place over the span of years. And this is why again and again the writers of the New Testament spoke of the salvation/conversion/redemption/second birth of their readers as a fully-accomplished fact. (Romans 6:1-6; Corinthians 1:2; 30-31; Ephesians 1:3-7; 2:8-9; Colossians 1:14-15; 1 John 5:11-13, etc.)



These verses cannot indicate a works-salvation as you propose because such a thing is flatly denied in Scripture. Works do not have any salvific power. (Ephesians 2:8-9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5-6) Works manifest true salvation, but they don't obtain or maintain it.



Nope. Every genuine believer is made righteous - justified - by faith in Christ (Acts 13:39; Romans 3:22; Romans 5:17; 1 Corinthians 1:30-31; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Philippians 3:9, etc.). No other righteousness but Christ's perfect righteousness will God accept. Our works, however righteous, will never be perfect as Christ's righteousness is and so we must have his righteousness imputed to us so that we may be justified by God. We are, then, made righteous - perfectly righteous - in Christ and cannot add to this righteousness by way of our own imperfect human righteousness. Though we are righteous in our daily living by being righteous, our righteous standing before God spiritually is anchored in Christ, not our behaviour.



Perhaps in more than any respect soteriologically, this is the place where I disagree most strongly with the SAL proponent. I don't believe that when a person is indwelt by the Almighty God of the Universe in the Person of the Holy Spirit, that they can ever be the same again, that they can simply slide back into an entirely wicked life. Thinking that a genuine believer can do so is to maintain a very low view of God and His transforming power. It is a very weak God who cannot transform sufficiently the sinner to overcome sin; it is a very impotent God whose presence within a person leaves them fundamentally unchanged in their desires and behaviour. Paul, though, describes a very life-changing experience of God:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new
.

Galatians 2:20
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.


Philippians 1:21-23
21 For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell.
23 For I am hard pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better.


Colossians 2:9-10
9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily;
10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.


What has happened, at least in part, I believe, is that the modern Church is increasingly occupied by false converts. And these false converts look at one another and see an absence of the transforming, empowering work of the Spirit and think to themselves that such "Christian" living, such a weak effect of God upon their lives, is normal. As a consequence, much of the Church has come to expect very little of spiritual regeneration, of being born-again. Some even think it is possible to be truly saved and return to a life of sin. Real conversion, true spiritual birth is much different, however. It is fundamentally, powerfully and permanently transforming and there is no mistaking it. Sadly, such conversions are becoming more and more rare.



As I have already pointed out, no such phrase ("initial salvation") is used by any of the writers of the New Testament, nor is such an idea implied.



No such an extension of the birth analogy is ever made in Scripture. None. And this is so because to do so would be to advocate for works-salvation which Scripture flatly denies. Paul and John both write instead that Christ is the very life of the believer (Philippians 1:21; Colossians 3:4; John 15:5; 1 John 5:11-12) the source of all they are and do as born-again children of God. He is their "breath," their spiritual "heartbeat," the life-giving Vine from whom all branches sprout, and grow, and bear fruit. At no point in the believer's walk with God is it their responsibility to create life within themselves, to manufacture from their own good deeds the life of Christ. Like begets like. Cats beget cats; dogs beget dogs; and we can only beget more of ourselves. Only Christ can beget himself in us, which he does by the Holy Spirit. A new spiritual babe in Christ, then, will "breathe" inevitably and naturally as a consequence of the life of Christ within, not by a fearful working to maintain membership in God's family. To offer a better analogy: An apple tree begets apples because it is an apple tree, not in order to be an apple tree. This is the crucial difference between biblical Christian living and the works-salvation stuff you're espousing.



The "spirit" or "pneuma" of the body does not refer to the act of breathing but to the human soul or spirit that inhabits and animates the body. The body works, it functions, because the human spirit exists within it. Take away the spirit or soul of the person, as happens at death, and the body is a lifeless lump of tissue. So, too, the faith of a believer that does not manifest itself in corresponding works. If the believer's faith is of a saving sort, rather than merely intellectual or emotional, it will inevitably give rise to works. But if the believer's faith is not of this sort and does not produce corresponding works, it is "dead." A lack of works, though, does not make such a faith dead; it merely reveals that it is dead.



Works don't sustain faith anymore than apples fruiting from an apple tree sustain the tree. Works merely manifest the nature of one's faith, they express that faith; they don't bring that faith into existence, or give it life. The spiritual life of a believer is in Christ, not their works. (John 15:5; Colossians 3:4)

Concerning Hebrews 10:26 the key word indicating this is referring to believers is “we”. The author of Hebrews includes himself as potentially being able to lose his salvation if he should willfully live in sin.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

aiki

Regular Member
Feb 16, 2007
10,874
4,348
Winnipeg
✟236,528.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Satan would love to deceive Christians into not having this fear of God.

It is not Satan but the apostle John who wrote:

1 John 4:18
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.

There is no fear in love. This means, then, that if one is to obey the First and Great Commandment, which is to love God with everything one has (Matthew 22:36-38), fear must go. There is simply no other option, if John has written the truth (which he has).

It is only if Christians perfectly love God that they will not misbehave (1 John 5:3, John 14:21-24), and so they will not have any fear of any impending punishment from God for any misbehavior (1 John 4:18).

The word "perfect" does not mean "without flaw" in the case of 1 John 4:18 but conveys the sense of "completed" or "fulfilled." A mature, complete love of God, then, casts out fear. An immature love of God will allow for fear; it is a love incomplete in its understanding of God.

1 John 4:16
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

1 John 4:19
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

As John explains here, when a believer knows and believes the love that God has for him, and so begins to abide in it, he will grow complete or "perfect" in his love of God and fear will be cast out.

But if they become so wicked that they lose their fear of God (Psalms 36:1, Psalms 10:13), and so continue to misbehave without repentance, then they do need to fear impending punishment from God in the form of temporal chastening (Hebrews 12:6). And if they refuse to repent even after receiving temporal chastening (Revelation 3:19, Revelation 2:21), then they need to fear God's ability to cast them into hell (Luke 12:5) for their unrepentant misbehavior (Hebrews 10:26-29, Luke 12:45-46).

This is silly. No one who is truly a genuine believer would persist in the course of behaviour you outline here. Again, this boogey-man caricature that SAL people like to throw up of the OSAS profligate is nonsense. The apostle John has it quite right:

1 John 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
 
Upvote 0