Open Theism

zelosravioli said:

Predetermined / Foreknowledge could mean 'either':
'causing' something in the future to happen - or 'seeing' that something in the future will happen.

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Two different words many open theists are demonstrating they don’t know. And when used in the same statement ignoring that and the context.

hedrick said:

Because most people don't seem to accept the argument for compatibilism.

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That’s probably because most don’t accept a Sovereign God.

DZoolander said:

Well I’ve given my interpretation of what I think “free will” means and necessitates.

What do you believe the term to mean? What is meant when it’s said that God gave man free will? In practice what does that boil down to?

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After examination of the Scriptures cover to cover over several years each year this is the conclusion:

God has an eternal Will and Purpose. It does not change. God is not bound by His creation meaning not to any decisions we make.

Adam and Eve had what would be considered a perfect union or relationship with God and the only command they had was to not eat of the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of good and evil. They truly had a choice and acted according to the will God created them with. They decided they wanted more and wanting to become more like God instead of drawing closer to Him (the Tree of Life) they disobeyed. The freely chose within their created free will.

Now mankind the sons and daughters of Adam are children of the Tree of Knowledge which means we are children of disobedience, children under God’s wrath (Ephesians 2). Under this Fallen state we indeed choose and act without coercion but notice it is tainted by the Fall. In Ephesians 2 it says we are dead in our sins and trespasses and until God acts to make us alive in Christ we exercise what some call free will under our fallen state. It is what Paul calls the bondage of the human will. We are either in bondage to sin leading to death or in bondage to Christ and righteousness.

Read Romans 6

Read Ephesians 2

zelosravioli said:

Nothing in these definitions states God 'see's or 'knows' the 'future' as you seem to suggest.
Open Theism means God can or will 'cause' these things to happen.
(Nothing needs to have 'happened' back in time or be seen to have 'happened already in the future', in order for God to cause something to happen - it makes sense that God causes things to happen in the 'now')

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The words mean exactly what they do. You are trying to make your theology fit the words instead of the words assisting in the theology.

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29(Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267/proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand
Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel
Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12(seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. beforecreation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))

zelosravioli said:

I am determined that we go to the store. Predestined
I know we are going to the store. Foreknowledge
This just as easily means the above also.

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No it doesn’t you just made that up. Show me where from the actually defined words you come up with this.

zelosravioli said:

Prognosis comes from the Greek pro- "before" and gnosis "knowledge." It means to know beforehand, but keep in mind that it is only a probable outcome and not a sure thing. Lung cancer is an example where the "prognosis" of the disease may not be very accurate"

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No the prognosis of the disease is not the diagnosis. Prognosis is based on the stage or advancement of the disease and the oncologists assessment of either poor or good. Good meaning a high degree of survival and poor meaning “we can treat you but not cure you.” Trust me I know these terms well and they don’t reflect how the NT writers actually used the word. I gave that in the lexicon above.

Tetra said:

Yes, the Scripture does use those words.

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That’s a big help.

DZoolander said:

I've pretty much exclusively used the term "foreknowledge" within this thread, because that's what I'm interested in for this discussion. I've stayed away from using anything along the lines of "predestined"/"predestination"/etc - because that carries other baggage into the discussion that I'm not interested in delving into now.

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In the passages I cited along with the lexicon defining the words within the context of the passage, we cannot avoid the fact predetermined is in the same sentence and context as Foreknowledge. Add to the fact both are attributed to God makes both part of His Eternal attributes.

There’s no wiggle room here.

redleghunter said:

That’s a big help.

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Well I don't know what you want me to say, open theists have no issues with the words predestination and foreknowledge... yet you keep quoting them.

OzSpen said:

Really?

I suggest that our human logic finds it difficult to comprehend the sovereign God who allows genuine human choice/free will.

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Notice the question mark I used in response to another post.

Tetra said:

Well I don't know what you want me to say, open theists have no issues with the words predestination and foreknowledge... yet you keep quoting them.

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It’s because you are redefining the words into your philosophical construct ignoring the actual NT usage of the words.

DZoolander said:

lol isn’t free will predicated on the idea that more than one option is legitimately available to be chosen from?

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DZ,

Those options are:
A. Accept Jesus' salvation;
B. Reject Jesus' salvation.

Oz

DZoolander said:

If the perfect foreknowledge that you will do action A is true, then when the event occurs, you must do A. True?

And if not - and B could happen — how can the foreknowledge be perfect?

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DZ,

You leave out half of the question in your 'if' scenario. God, in his foreknowledge, gives two choices:
A: Accept the Saviour;
B: Reject the Saviour.

While he knows which one I will choose, that does not redefine or limit his foreknowledge. We are dealing with a supernatural attribute for which we human beings (including myself) have limited understanding.

Oz

hedrick said:

Incidentally, the argument that God couldn't foresee who is going to be saved and damned until he decided to create seems to me to have problem. The intent is to save God from ethical responsibility for damnation of individuals. But it only works if God is a deist: if he doesn't interact with the world after he creates it. But in the usual picture God has had lots of interactions with humans. Those are a significant influence on human behavior. If you assume exhaustive foreknowledge, even Molinist, then God could still save someone by changing how he interacts with the world. E.g. God decided to choose Israel. This decreases the chances of people in other nations to be saved.

I don't think you can really absolve God of responsibility for damnation of individuals other than through universalism. Hence ultimately the only two choices may be Calvinism and universalism.

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Universalism isn't a systematic theology, Calvinism is with it's greatest strengths and strongest arguments founded exclusively on the gospel and the sovereignty of God. God needs no one to save him from ethics problems, God is righteous and that is never a question. What God foreknew before creation exists in the mind of God and revealed in Christ alone. It will never be fully resolved until the believer sees him as he is and becomes like him.

DZoolander said:

lol isn’t free will predicated on the idea that more than one option is legitimately available to be chosen from?

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But you exclude that possibility.

redleghunter said:

Perhaps for limited material beings who were created.

The uncreated Creator is not limited by His created works.

Open theism is a materialist construct to bring God down to our fallen level of thinking.

Next people will start some crazy theories like Christ did not rise from the dead bodily.

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I don't so much have a problem with free will as I do making God subject to chance. God isn't waiting around to see what will happen and adjust his salvation accordingly. God dispenses salvation according to eternal purposes and nothing escapes the all inclusive nature of his sovereign will.

hedrick said:

How many people who believe in Arminianism don't also believe in open theism?

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I don't, as a leaky Reformed Arminian - I don't believe in infant baptism.

Tetra said:

Well I don't know what you want me to say, open theists have no issues with the words predestination and foreknowledge... yet you keep quoting them.

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Please provide the evidence of such (with references) from open theists.

redleghunter said:

The words mean exactly what they do. You are trying to make your theology fit the words instead of the words assisting in the theology.

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29(Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267/proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand
Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand
Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel
Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12(seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. beforecreation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))




No it doesn’t you just made that up. Show me where from the actually defined words you come up with this.


No the prognosis of the disease is not the diagnosis. Prognosis is based on the stage or advancement of the disease and the oncologists assessment of either poor or good. Good meaning a high degree of survival and poor meaning “we can treat you but not cure you.” Trust me I know these terms well and they don’t reflect how the NT writers actually used the word. I gave that in the lexicon above.

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Like I said nothing and all your definition in your articles quoted, mention the word 'future' and thats my point.
Determining the future, planning it, setting boundaries, marking out beforehand, purposing, none of this requires seeing or knowing the 'future'. Foreknowledge; Usage: predetermined (from 'your' article)
The prognosis definition wasn't written by me, it comes from a English language dictionary, and says the word comes from, and is identical with the Greek understanding from which it is from.

zelosravioli said:

Like I said nothing and all your definition in your articles quoted, mention the word 'future' and thats my point.
Determining the future, planning it, setting boundaries, marking out beforehand, purposing, none of this requires seeing or knowing the 'future'. Foreknowledge; Usage: predetermined (from 'your' article)
The prognosis definition wasn't written by me, it comes from a English language dictionary, and says the word comes from, and is identical with the Greek understanding from which it is from.

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It’s not an article I posted but the lexicon of the Koine Greek.

If you don’t have a problem with what I presented then you agree that God had known beforehand Pilate, the Sanhedrin and Judas would do exactly what they did.

OzSpen said:

Please provide the evidence of such (with references) from open theists.

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Well the words literally exist in Scripture. You want references that open theists recognize the words existence? I never mind providing sources but that's a bizarre request.

redleghunter said:

I think most classical Arminians have issues with open theism. Arminians the classical types like Wesley believed God Predestined those who through His Foreknowledge received Christ. I’m not a big fan of this view obviously but at least Wesleyanism and Arminianism confirm a omniscient God can see the future and what decisions people make.

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Yes. Arminius was trying to preserve the function of grace. So said that no one can have faith without God electing them and bringing them to faith. However God elected those who he foresaw would respond and come to faith.