If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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Hieronymus

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God does not play semantic games, and I insist that if any are in Hell, annihilated or whatever, they are still DEAD, and insisting that Death is still defeated is putting lipstick on a pig.
I think you make a mistake of assuming death (the ultimate death in the lake of Fire) is a state of being.
It is not.
It is cessation of being.
It's not 'being dead', it's 'not being'.
But i do find your point interesting none the less.
 
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ClementofA

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I think you make a mistake of assuming death (the ultimate death in the lake of Fire) is a state of being.
It is not.
It is cessation of being.
It's not 'being dead', it's 'not being'.
But i do find your point interesting none the less.

The prodigal son was called "dead" yet he had not ceased to be.
 
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ClementofA

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Thank God we have more than one translator you need to walk through the whole Bible and not what appeals to men.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who know not God, and those who do not obey the glad tidings of our Lord Jesus Christ; 

2Th 1:9  who shall pay the penalty of everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, [DARBY]

What's the difference between destruction and everlasting destruction?

The Greek word aionios, erroneously translated above as "everlasting", is the same Greek word that is often deceptively translated as eternal or everlasting at Mt.25:46.

Examples of aionios as a finite duration in Koine Greek:

Two Questions

2 Thess.1:9 is not a difficult text to reconcile with the Scriptural teaching of universal reconciliation(UR). Simply put it speaks of an indefinite duration (=aionias,
often deceptively rendered eternal/everlasting) of destruction.

Therefore, whatever you understand by the word "destruction" - whether death, annihilation or ruin - the text is perfectly harmonious with UR passages of the Bible.
Problem solved. Now you can rejoice in the Good News!

2Thess.1:9 Who, indeed, a penalty, shall pay—age-abiding destruction from the face of the Lord and from the glory of his might— (Rotherham)

9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength" (CLNT)

who shall suffer justice -- destruction age-during -- from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength, (2 Thess 1:9, YLT)

A recent new translation by EO scholar David Bentley Hart reads: "Who shall pay the just reparation of ruin in the Age, coming from the face of the Lord and the glory of his might" (A Translation: The New Testament, 2017, Yale University Press).

Lamentations 3:22 and 3:31-33, The steadfast love of the Lord NEVER ceases, his mercies NEVER come to an end. . . .
Lam.3:31 For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
32 For if He causes grief, Then He will have compassion According to His abundant lovingkindness. 33 For He does not afflict willingly Or grieve the SONS OF MEN.…

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

1 Cor.15:22 AS in Adam ALL die SO ALSO in Christ shall ALL be made alive.

1 Cor.15:28 And when ALL shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put ALL under him, that God may be all in ALL.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
 
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ClementofA

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1 Corinthians 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

1 Corinthians 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Hebrews 2:14  Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the false accuser;

Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Rev 20:10 And the false accuser that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be vexed day and night for ever and ever.
H2000 vex הָמַם hâmam destroy: - break, consume, crush,
 


Revelation 20:11-15 doesn't speak of anyone being anywhere "forever".

As for Revelation 20:10...there is no "forever" there either.

Some literal translations say:

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

See also posts 130 & 131 @

What is the 2nd Death? (Annihilationsim vs. Eternal Torment)

Regarding 12 points re ages of ages ending.

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?


Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

This includes everyone in the universe, including the dead and demons:

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

John speaks of "every creature" & to emphasize this again he repeats "and all that are in them":

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour,
and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

This worship (v.13) uses the same worshipful words as the redeemed of vs 9-10 use in v.12:

12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

All this being in the context of salvation - "the Lamb that was slain" (v.12 & 13).

12 points re forever and ever being finite:
For the Lord will NOT cast off FOR EVER:
 
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he-man

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These are all examples of what happens after Judgement.
So that's not about "Hades", which is often also translated as "hell"
Things have been mixed up.
The word "inferno" literally means "netherworld". The word "inferior" uses the same root.
So it's mistakenly used as a synonym for a fiery unpleasant place.
You ear confusing Dante's Inferno with the word for hell.
I assume you do not understand the Bible, Hell and death are the same and the Lake of Fire is from God!


Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die.

Hades is translated as hell ten times in the New Testament, but it is also translated as "grave" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, another point of inconsistency.

When Death and Hades is placed in the fiery presence of God, in the "lake of divine fire", it is destroyed, because it is in the very presence of God, death can not exist when God is present.

Yet the word 'theion' is translated as "brimstone" or "sulfur" in Luke 17:29, Rev. 9:17, 14:10, 20:10, 21:8, which is where 'fire and brimstone' comes out of heaven, but it is equally interchange with the words "divine fire". Since this did not fit the translators' preconceived ideas, it is rendered always as brimstone in this context.


The history of the English word "hell" is also revealing. The Old English word from which hell is derived is "helan", which means to hide or cover, and is a verb. So at one time the English church understood that to be judged a sinner meant one would cower and want to hide in fear when in God's presence.

Also totally absent from the scriptures is any hint that demons are tormenting sinners. This again comes from Dante's Inferno and other pagan concepts, not from the Bible. Because any "sinning angels" in the presence of God, are also in torment, and their power is made ineffective.

However, it is not totally wrong to understand the after life as "type" of Heaven and Hell. Because from each individual's perspective, it will not be perceived as the same "place", but rather as either torment and darkness you can not escape, or as the paradise you have always longed for. For those judged, they will experience God's presence as eternal darkness.

The cause of the pain is the poor choices that we make, not God. If one thinks of these two different "places" as conditions that we choose to be in, rather than "compartments" God puts us in, it would be more accurate.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
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Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Psalms 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
 
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Lazarus Short

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I think you make a mistake of assuming death (the ultimate death in the lake of Fire) is a state of being.
It is not.
It is cessation of being.
It's not 'being dead', it's 'not being'.
But i do find your point interesting none the less.

I don't see a difference: "being dead" = "not being." By the same logic, "annihilation" = "being dead."

Annihilation, to you, must mean "deader than dead." Even Miracle Max didn't take it that far.

I don't care to play semantic games. It is what it is.
 
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he-man

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I think you make a mistake of assuming death (the ultimate death in the lake of Fire) is a state of being.
It is not.
It is cessation of being.
It's not 'being dead', it's 'not being'.
But i do find your point interesting none the less.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Psalms 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

2 Sameul 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled

Psalms 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.

13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.

Psalms 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.

Psalms 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.

Psalms 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.

Psalms 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.

Isaiah 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.

Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.

Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the false accuser and his messengers

Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 
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he-man

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I don't see a difference: "being dead" = "not being." By the same logic, "annihilation" = "being dead."

Annihilation, to you, must mean "deader than dead." Even Miracle Max didn't take it that far.

I don't care to play semantic games. It is what it is.
Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Psalms 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2 Sameul 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled
Psalms 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psalms 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
Psalms 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.
Psalms 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalms 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.
Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the false accuser and his messengers
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.
Psalms 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.
Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.
Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.
Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.
Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;
Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.
Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
2 Sameul 22:9 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
13 Through the brightness before him were coals of fire kindled
Psalms 11:6 Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.
Psalms 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
13 The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Psalms 21:9 Thou shalt make them as a fiery oven in the time of thine anger: the LORD shall swallow them up in his wrath, and the fire shall devour them.
Psalms 29:7 The voice of the LORD divideth the flames of fire.
Psalms 50:3 Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence: a fire shall devour before him, and it shall be very tempestuous round about him.
Psalms 97:3 A fire goeth before him, and burneth up his enemies round about.
Psalms 104:4 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:
Isaiah 5:24 Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the LORD of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.
Isaiah 30:30 And the LORD shall cause his glorious voice to be heard, and shall shew the lighting down of his arm, with the indignation of his anger, and with the flame of a devouring fire, with scattering, and tempest, and hailstones.
Isaiah 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the destroyer to destroy.
Isaiah 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Matthew 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the false accuser and his messengers
Revelation 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Of course, I covered all those verses in my book, from a Universalist perspective.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Of course, I covered all those verses in my book, from a Universalist perspective.
So that explains it - when anyone starts with a false premise, a false perspective, they cannot have a valid understanding or build upon that.
Thanks for clearing that up for us.
 
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Hieronymus

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You ear confusing Dante's Inferno with the word for hell.
I don't think Dante invented the greek word "inferno", which has nothing to do with fire.
I don't know Dante's work.
I did see the movie "Towering Inferno" though. :)
I guess i found out the meaning and the root of inferno and inferior and thought: Hey, it doesn't mean fire at all.
I must have put 2 and 2 together and got 5 :doh:
But there is some confusion between underworld, grave, hell and the lake of fire in the Bible (translations).
I assume you do not understand the Bible, Hell and death are the same and the Lake of Fire is from God!
Assume all you want.
But you probably know it better than i do.
Hades of course is used to mean the same thing as Hebrew "Sheol," it simply means the place everyone goes when they die.

Hades is translated as hell ten times in the New Testament, but it is also translated as "grave" in 1 Corinthians 15:55, another point of inconsistency.

When Death and Hades is placed in the fiery presence of God, in the "lake of divine fire", it is destroyed, because it is in the very presence of God, death can not exist when God is present.
I'm glad we agree there. :)

Yet the word 'theion' is translated as "brimstone" or "sulfur" in Luke 17:29, Rev. 9:17, 14:10, 20:10, 21:8, which is where 'fire and brimstone' comes out of heaven, but it is equally interchange with the words "divine fire". Since this did not fit the translators' preconceived ideas, it is rendered always as brimstone in this context.
Interesting. :thumbsup:

The history of the English word "hell" is also revealing. The Old English word from which hell is derived is "helan", which means to hide or cover, and is a verb. So at one time the English church understood that to be judged a sinner meant one would cower and want to hide in fear when in God's presence.
Interesting.

Also totally absent from the scriptures is any hint that demons are tormenting sinners. This again comes from Dante's Inferno and other pagan concepts, not from the Bible. Because any "sinning angels" in the presence of God, are also in torment, and their power is made ineffective.
Hmmm... The idea that all fallen creatures will be there together is none the less extra intimidating...
To be clear, my idea of hell is not inspired by Dante. I don't know his work.
Yes, i know the often cartoonish imagination of hell, of course.
But i don't believe God or satan has employees there who torture people or something like that.
But i can imagine there is a lot of hate between those who are there, between the kinds of creatures.


However, it is not totally wrong to understand the after life as "type" of Heaven and Hell. Because from each individual's perspective, it will not be perceived as the same "place", but rather as either torment and darkness you can not escape, or as the paradise you have always longed for. For those judged, they will experience God's presence as eternal darkness.
I don't think God is present in hades.
That's why it's cold and dark, isolated, removed from God.
As you said and i agreed, God is a consuming Fire for what is not holy.
That means they would be consumed by fire if God were present there.
But this place seems to be where the dead are before Judgement.
It's not the 2nd death, it's the 1st death, the natural physical death, or rather what is after that for the people who are not resting in Abraham's lap.
Correct me if i remember this wrong.

The cause of the pain is the poor choices that we make, not God. If one thinks of these two different "places" as conditions that we choose to be in, rather than "compartments" God puts us in, it would be more accurate.
2Th 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 12:29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Psalms 140:10 Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again.

Deuteronomy 4:24 For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God.

Numbers 16:35 And there came out a fire from the LORD, and consumed the two hundred and fifty men that offered incense.

Ezekiel 22:31 Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord GOD.

Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

Leviticus 10:2 And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
Thanks for your explanations. :thumbsup:
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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But there is some confusion between underworld, grave, hell and the lake of fire in the Bible (translations).
For those looking/ seeking the truth, it is available only in a few places as far as research goes, that I know of.
Yes, the confusion is from various [mis-] translations/[mis-] interpretations.

Scripture , Yahweh's Word, is Pure, Perfect, and Simple when Yahweh Reveals His Understanding to little children, as Yahshua Praises Him for Doing, as seen throughout Scripture.
No confusion, no contradictions, no manmade doctrines nor dogmas in Yahweh's Word.
 
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Hieronymus

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I don't see a difference: "being dead" = "not being." By the same logic, "annihilation" = "being dead."

Annihilation, to you, must mean "deader than dead." Even Miracle Max didn't take it that far.

I don't care to play semantic games. It is what it is.
Not games.
I'm serious.
"Being dead" = after this life and before Judgement.
Then you are in hades or sheol or Abraham's lap, not in the lake of fire.
"Annihilation" = ceasing to exist because the lake of Fire consumes = "not being at all", which is for ever and irreversible.
So the 2nd death, which is the lake of fire, is the "terminal death" so to speak.
 
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Lazarus Short

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So that explains it - when anyone starts with a false premise, a false perspective, they cannot have a valid understanding or build upon that.
Thanks for clearing that up for us.

Ah, but who has started with a false premise? I stand with John the Baptist who described his cousin, Jesus the Christ, as the Lamb Who takes away the sin of the world. This Jesus is either the Savior of the whole world, or He is not.
 
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Lazarus Short

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Not games.
I'm serious.
"Being dead" = after this life and before Judgement.
Then you are in hades or sheol or Abraham's lap, not in the lake of fire.
"Annihilation" = ceasing to exist because the lake of Fire consumes = "not being at all", which is for ever and irreversible.
So the 2nd death, which is the lake of fire, is the "terminal death" so to speak.

I am not gaming you, but serious as well, and you cannot wrap your mind around the problem: How can Death be defeated if any are still dead and/or in Hell? It's a simple question I think you are unwilling to face. Instead, you beat around the burning bush. Hint: the bush was on fire, but the fire did not consume it. That is our first and foundational look at the Fire of God.
 
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If you deny His Word, as it seems you started with denying His Word,
or if you twist His Word, like universalists must ,
then that is false.

One of things I learned in becoming a writer is that the beginning and the ending are the most important and the best remembered parts of a work. So...how does the Holy Bible begin?

It begins thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

It does NOT begin thus: "In the beginning God created the heaven, the earth and hell." Nope, it did not say that. In point of FACT, since you seem to think Universalists twist God's Word, I found NOWHERE in the Bible that God ever claimed to have made or created Hell. Besides, the apostle John, in his Gospel, states that if God did not create a thing, then no one else did either. I have not found Hell to be anything other than a theo-illogical fiction.

To set the record straight: I do not deny God's Word, just bad TRANSLATIONS of His Word.
 
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he-man

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Of course, I covered all those verses in my book, from a Universalist perspective.
Oh, I see then you must be a linguistics Hebrew/Greek translator and know the differences including vocabulary, syntax, and morphology. Which dialect do you use? Paleo-Hebrew, West Semitic or Afroasiatic? And you must be familiar with the Book of Ben Sira. What do you think of allophonic spirantization? Do you think they are pharyngealized? Or do you like uvular or glottal articulation? Do you prefer a voicedvelar fricative or alveolar trill? Which of the above do you prefer for religious service such as prayer?
 
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