THE SABBATH IS GOD'S 4th COMMANDMENT - WHERE IS THE SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS IT IS ABOLISHED?

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Anderseric

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LoveGodsWord,
This is a very old topic and legalists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Messianic Jews will keep bringing it up. And they are in error because they do not really understand who Jesus is as "the-Word-of-God-made-flesh" nor do they understand the freedom in Christ which the Apostles taught.

The 4th Commandment (and much of the Mosaic Law) was not abolished but was fulfilled and re-interpreted by Jesus Himself, who is the Lord of the Sabbath. The early Church was not mistaken in this.

The Lord of the Sabbath is an expression describing Jesus which appears in all three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5. ... Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

In the first Jerusalem Church Council in Acts 15, the leaders agreed to drop the Jewish requirements on Christians and did not even mention keeping the Sabbath: “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." That was it; nothing more. And now many like yourself want to re-institute those symbolic-prophetic Jewish laws which the Lord Jesus fulfilled in His ministry, on the Cross, in the Resurrection, and in God's sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Not only in Acts 15, which eliminated the Jewish ceremonial requirements for Gentile Christians, but we also hear from Paul in Romans 14:4-6 (I encourage all to read the entire chapter): "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord." Although changing the holy day from Saturday to Sunday (or to all days) is never commanded, it is clearly allowed.

Historically, in everywhere but Israel, the early Church quickly moved to gathering for worship on the first day of the week (Resurrection Sunday) and eventually the "weekend" (both Saturday and Sunday) became days of rest and/or worship. Are you saying that the Church (now essentially Gentile believers) was wrong in doing this? Since Jesus (the King of kings and Lord of the Sabbath) came, died for us on Good Friday, was Resurrected on following Sunday, and began the Kingdom of God on earth, are not all days now equally Sabbatical and holy?

Perhaps our listeners would benefit from the Apostolic teachings about the purpose of the Law in Judaism. When Paul condemned relying upon “works of the law” in Galatians and elsewhere, he certainly had in mind circumcision, food laws, and the Sabbath. He kept the moral laws intact as applicable to everyone, but these other particularly Jewish cultural, ceremonial, and prophetic things no longer held the same value before God for Christian believers. The Incarnation of God in Christ Jesus fulfilled the reason for the existence of these laws in the first place. It is now faith in Christ which matters to God. And of course, from that faith eventually comes moral behavior and good works.

The Mosaic laws were meant to guard Israel until the arrival of Christ. This was the matter of contention between Paul and the believers in Galatia, and it is this issue which consumes the author in Galatians 3:19-25 :. “Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained through angels by a mediator. Now a mediator involves more than one party; but God is one. Is the law then opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could make one alive, then righteousness would indeed come through the law. But the scripture has imprisoned all things under the power of sin, so that what was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian.”
The meaning here is quite clear to me.

Doctor: Consider that Paul said, "I am a Pharisee of Pharisees" Paul did not say, I was. If Paul says that "imitating" Jesus is good for him, who am I to argue? The meaning here is quite clear to me. Thoughts? Could you define "imitate" from 1Cor.11? Do you agree that Jesus walked the Mosaic instructions Perfectly?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Hello Bruce nice to see you again. Some comments for your consideration below.
LoveGodsWord,
This is a very old topic and legalists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Messianic Jews will keep bringing it up. And they are in error because they do not really understand who Jesus is as "the-Word-of-God-made-flesh" nor do they understand the freedom in Christ which the Apostles taught.

Now Bruce, that statement has no truth in it whatsoever and let's see why? Firstly who has ever stated here or anywhere alse as you are claiming that we are saved by the works of the law? We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8. Now my friend, if no one is saying we are saved by what we do then why try and make claims that no one is claiming? If no one is claiming what you are claiming then your statement has no basis in truth and is simply a false statement. God's WORD is a very old topic and we should believe and follow it. JESUS says those who follow the teachings and traditions of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who should we believe and follow; God or men *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29? I know who I believe *JOHN 3:16

The 4th Commandment (and much of the Mosaic Law) was not abolished but was fulfilled and re-interpreted by Jesus Himself, who is the Lord of the Sabbath. The early Church was not mistaken in this.

Your error here brother is mixing up God's LAW (10 commandments) which were spoken and written by God alone *EXODUS 20:1-17; EXODUS 32:16 that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172; with the MOSAIC BOOK of the law that outlined the SHADOW laws that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT. Brother, said in all respect and love, if you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand what the NEW COVENANT is when the OLD COVENANT points to the NEW?

The Lord of the Sabbath is an expression describing Jesus which appears in all three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5. ... Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."

Not sure of the point your trying to make here brother. JESUS is indeed the LORD of the SABBATH because God's WORD teaches JESUS is the GOD of creation so another words he made the Sabbath and has commanded his people to REMEMBER the SEVENTH DAY to keep it as a HOLY day as a memorial of creation *JOHN 1:1-4; 14; GENESIS 2:1-3; EXODUS 20:8-11. JESUS is saying in MARK 2:27-28 that he is the LORD of the SABBATH (creator) and he made the SABBATH for mankind. Thanks for the scriptures but they do not support your position sadly.

In the first Jerusalem Church Council in Acts 15, the leaders agreed to drop the Jewish requirements on Christians and did not even mention keeping the Sabbath: “It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." That was it; nothing more.

The topic and CONTEXT of ACTS 15 is not God's 10 Commandments. It is the question of is CIRCUMCISION a requirement for salvation to new Gentile believers. Here brother let's add the context you left out of the scriptures you provided.

ACTS 15:1-2
[1], And certain men came down from Judaea and taught the brethren, saying, EXCEPT YOU BE CIRCUMCISED AFTER THE CUSTOM OF MOSES, YOU CANNOT BE SAVED.
[2], And when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and questioning with them, the brethren appointed that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, SHOULD GO UP TO JERUSALEM UNTO THE APOSTLES ABOUT THIS QUESTION.

...........

NOTE: ACTS 15:1 is the question that needs to be answered and the topic of conversation and CONTEXT of the chapter of ACTS 15. Here we have Jewish believers coming to Paul and Barnabas saying if the new GENTILES believers are not circumcised and made proselytes then they cannot be saved. This is the chapter context and issue of contention.
There was much arguing over the claims of the Jewish believers who are claiming that unless the new gentiles are circumcised they cannot be saved. They then determined that Paul and Barnabas must go to Jerusalem to the Apostles and elders ABOUT THIS QUESTION. Which question? Weather your salvation depends on being CIRCUMCISED.

...........

They then travelled to Jerusalem about this question of CIRCUMCISION to determine if new gentile believers needed to be CIRCUMCISED in order to be saved. Once they got to Jerusalem, the question was then asked and the discussion continued with the Pharasees stating their cas first..

...........


[5], But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees who believed, saying, It is needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

...........

NOTE: KEEP in mind here the question was never over if gentile believers should obey God's 10 Commandments but to keep the Shadow laws of Moses, in this case CIRCUMCISION as a means of salvation. CIRCUMCIONS is from the law of MOSES not God’s 10 Commandments written by God on two tables of stone.

...........


[6], And the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter.

NOTE: Which matter? CIRCUMCISION as a requirement for salvation for new gentile believers

[7], And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, you know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

[8], And God, who knows the hearts, bore them witness, giving them the Holy Spirit, even as he did unto us;

...........


NOTE: After much discussion between the Apostles, Peter then rose up showing that God gave the gentile believers the Holy Spirit being UNCIRCUMCISED.

...........

[9], And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
[10], Now therefore why test God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
[11], But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

...........


NOTE: They came to the conclusion that salvation is not by being circumcised but circumcision pointed to a new heart by faith. This is made plain latter in other scripture written by PAUL here...

ROMANS 2 [25] For circumcision verily profits, if you keep the law: but if you are a breaker of the law, your circumcision is made uncircumcision. [26], Therefore if the uncircumcision keeps the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? [27], And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfils the law, judge you, who by the letter and circumcision do transgress the law? [28], FOR HE IS NOT A JEW, WHO IS ONE; NEITHER IS THAT CIRCUMCISION, WHICH IS OF THE OUTWARD FLESH: [29], BUT HE IS A JEW WHICH IS ONE INWARDLY; AND CIRCUMCISION IS THAT OF THE HEART, IN THE SPIRIT AND NOT IN THE LETTER; WHOSE PRAISE IS NOT OF MEN BUT OF GOD.

............

If ACTS 15 was talking about the 10 Commandments then Pauls writings to the CORITHIANS do not make any sense and this is why...

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

The scripture above is a contradiction of how some interpret the outcome of ACTS 15. You do not believe brother Bruce, that we are now free to break any of God's 10 Commandments now do you?

...........

[12], Then all the multitude kept silence, and listened to Barnabas and Paul declaring what miracles and wonders God had done among the Gentiles by them.
[13], And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
[14], Simeon has declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
[15], And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[16], After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
[17], That the rest of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, says the Lord, who does all these things.
[18], Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[19], Therefore my judgment is, that we trouble not them, who from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
[20], But that we write unto them, that they abstain from defilements of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
[21], For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

NOTE: Now brother look at the outcome. CIRCUMCISION is not a requirement for salvation. This has nothing to do with God's 10 commandments that the NEW TESTAMENT scriptures say give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4 and PSALMS 119:172. The reason for this decision is made very clear in v21. For Moses of old time has in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. The new believers would continue learning the Word of God every Sabbath.

.................

CONCLUSION So the conclusion of the matter. v19-20 We are not to trouble the new gentile believers with CIRCUMCISION as a requirement for salvation. They are new converts they will learn more about God's Word as Moses is taught, when? EVERY SABBATH. In the meantime you should abstain from anything offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication. NOPE nothing written about the 10 Commandments in this chapter. Here is what PAUL says of the matter here...

1 CORITHIANS 7 [19] CIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, AND UNCIRCUMCISION IS NOTHING, BUT THE KEEPING OF THE COMMANDMENTS OF GOD.

Yep you may need to revisit your thinking of ACTS 15. CIRCUMCISION is not the 10 Commandments. It is from the Shadow laws of the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT. ACTS 15 has nothing to do with God's 4th commandment or the ten Commandments that if broken give us the knowledge of sin *JAMES 2:8-12.

And now many like yourself want to re-institute those symbolic-prophetic Jewish laws which the Lord Jesus fulfilled in His ministry, on the Cross, in the Resurrection, and in God's sending the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

Your error here brother is in mixing up God's LAW (10 commandments) which were spoken and written by God alone *EXODUS 20:1-17; EXODUS 32:16 that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172 in both the OLD and NEW COVENANT; with the MOSAIC BOOK of the law that outlined the SHADOW laws that pointed to JESUS and God's plan of salvation in the NEW COVENANT. Brother, said in all respect and love, if you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand what the NEW COVENANT is when the OLD COVENANT points to the NEW?

to be continued...
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Romans 14:4-6 (I encourage all to read the entire chapter): "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord." Although changing the holy day from Saturday to Sunday (or to all days) is never commanded, it is clearly allowed.

Now brother are you trying to read into the scriptures something that the scriptures are not talking about? (I also encourage all to read the entire chapter of Romans 14 and show where it is talking about God's 10 Commandments or the SABBATH) When you read the entire chapter you will see that ROMANS 14 or for that matter all the book of ROMANS does not even mention God's 4th Commandment SABBATH because it is not the CONTEXT or topic of discussion.

Some points to consider in Romans 14:1-15

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.
[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on
[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin: Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point: Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14
[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14
[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

CONCLUSION: Nope nothing about the Sabbath. Your reading into the scriptures something that it is not talking about. Please feel free to show in all of ROMANS 14 the scripture saying it is talking about God's 4th commandment being ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. If you can't than it is a bit of a gamble brother to come up with that interpretation when God's LAW is the knowledge of SIN if broken and JESUS and all the Apostles kept God's 4th commandment as a Holy day.

Historically, in everywhere but Israel, the early Church quickly moved to gathering for worship on the first day of the week (Resurrection Sunday) and eventually the "weekend" (both Saturday and Sunday) became days of rest and/or worship. Are you saying that the Church (now essentially Gentile believers) was wrong in doing this?

Your only telling one side of the story. Historically from GENESIS to REVELATION in God's WORD, all through time to this very present day, God's people have always kept God's 4th Commandment SABBATH unbroken since creation and afterwards following the example of JESUS and the APOSTLES. Can't get much better than that I would imagine can you? JESUS and the APOSTLES all kept God's SABBATH according to the commandment. SUNDAY on the other hand is a teaching and tradition of men that has no basis in the scriptures that has led many to break God's 4th commandment. JESUS says those who knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who should we believe and follow God or men *ACTS 5:29; ROMANS 3:4?

Since Jesus (the King of kings and Lord of the Sabbath) came, died for us on Good Friday, was Resurrected on following Sunday, and began the Kingdom of God on earth, are not all days now equally Sabbatical and holy?

Nope! According to God's WORD it is only God's 4th Commandment which is the SEVENTH DAY of the week *GENESIS 2:1-3 that God blessed and made a HOLY day. JESUS made the SABBATH for all mankind *MARK 2:27-28 and commands his people to REMEMBER the SEVENTH DAY of the week (SABBATH) to keep it as a HOLY day as a MEMORIAL of creation. God's SABBATH was a part of a FINISHED WORK *GENESIS 2:1-3, BEFORE SIN entered the world when mankind was in perfect harmony with God and BEFORE a need for God's plan of salvation so can NEVER be a shadow of anything because it is a part of a FINISHED work *GENESIS 2:1-3.

The SEVENTH DAY SABBATH is a memorial of creation that God has commanded us to keep is as a HOLY (none of our work) day every SEVENTH DAY *EXODUS 20:8-11. God's 4th Commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. If we break ANY ONE of the ten commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. God's WORD says that all those who continue to practice KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

Perhaps our listeners would benefit from the Apostolic teachings about the purpose of the Law in Judaism. When Paul condemned relying upon “works of the law” in Galatians and elsewhere, he certainly had in mind circumcision, food laws, and the Sabbath. He kept the moral laws intact as applicable to everyone, but these other particularly Jewish cultural, ceremonial, and prophetic things no longer held the same value before God for Christian believers. The Incarnation of God in Christ Jesus fulfilled the reason for the existence of these laws in the first place. It is now faith in Christ which matters to God. And of course, from that faith eventually comes moral behavior and good works.
This has already been addressed as a false allegation and strawman argument that no one is arguing about. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8. Now my friend, if no one is saying we are saved by what we do then why try and make claims that no one is claiming? If no one is claiming what you are claiming then your statement has no basis in truth and is simply a false statement.

God's WORD is a very old topic and we should believe and follow it. JESUS says those who follow the teachings and traditions of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who should we believe and follow; God or men *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29?

God's ten commandments are not ceremonial laws from the shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7. As already stated God's 10 commandments are God's MORAL laws that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172.

If we break ANY ONE of the ten commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. God's WORD says that all those who continue to practice KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.

The Mosaic laws were meant to guard Israel until the arrival of Christ. This was the matter of contention between Paul and the believers in Galatia, and it is this issue which consumes the author in Galatians 3:19-25 :. “Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained through angels by a mediator. Now a mediator involves more than one party; but God is one. Is the law then opposed to the promises of God? Certainly not! For if a law had been given that could make one alive, then righteousness would indeed come through the law. But the scripture has imprisoned all things under the power of sin, so that what was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian.”
The meaning here is quite clear to me.

Not really brother. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. Your mixing up the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT EXODUS 24:7 with God's eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is if broken that are a part of the OLD and NEW COVENANT scriptures. If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand the NEW COVENANT that the OLD pointed to?

We are not saved by God's LAW in the NEW COVENANT. They are the mirror *JAMES 4:17 that shows us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour *MATTHEW 9:12-13; GALATIANS 3:22-25, so that we might be free (from sin) to walk in God's SPIRIT (ROMANS 8:1-4; 13-14; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is the NEW COVENANT promise of all those who are BORN AGAIN to LOVE and to walk in God's Spirit *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 8:31-36 and the good news of the gospel of JESUS CHRIST.

...............

Now Bruce, can you see your errors here brother? Even after your lenghty post you have not answered one of the questions or provided a single scriture that says God's 4th Commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Does that not bother you brother when God's 4th commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is if broken? Who should we believe and follow, God or man *ROMANS 3:4? I know who I believe *MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 16:16. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

Sorry brother Bruce, God's WORD disagrees with you. Hope this helps.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.
 
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BNR32FAN

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Doctor: Consider that Paul said, "I am a Pharisee of Pharisees" Paul did not say, I was. If Paul says that "imitating" Jesus is good for him, who am I to argue? The meaning here is quite clear to me. Thoughts? Could you define "imitate" from 1Cor.11? Do you agree that Jesus walked the Mosaic instructions Perfectly?

Actually the Greek word eimí also means have been or was.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

am


G1510


Lemma:

εἰμί


Transliteration:

eimí


Pronounce:

i-mee'


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present


Grammar:

the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was. See also εἶ, εἴην, εἶναι, εἰσί, ἦν, ἔσομαι, ἐσμέν, ἐστέ, ἐστί, κέρδος, ἴσθι, ὦ.
 
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Anderseric

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Actually the Greek word eimí also means have been or was.

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

am


G1510


Lemma:

εἰμί


Transliteration:

eimí


Pronounce:

i-mee'


Part of Speech:

Verb


Language:

greek


Description:

1) to be, to exist, to happen, to be present


Grammar:

the first person singular present indicative; a prolonged form of a primary and defective verb; I exist (used only when emphatic):--am, have been, X it is I, was. See also εἶ, εἴην, εἶναι, εἰσί, ἦν, ἔσομαι, ἐσμέν, ἐστέ, ἐστί, κέρδος, ἴσθι, ὦ.


Sir: Are you suggesting that Paul is not a Pharisee? Second, do you believe Paul did everything to "imitate" Jesus and asked us to do the same, 1Cor11? The best we can do is to seek to imitate Jesus as closely as we can. Only when we are called good and faithful servants are we perfected with Him. Thoughts?
 
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BobRyan

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How can worshipping God be a sin?


Worshiping God is never a sin. The sin is in rebellion.
"Sin is transgression of the Law".

If one worships God on Tuesday or Wednesday - then blessings be upon them.

But if they claim that such worship cancels out their need to obey the Word of God in regard to His 4th commandment - then it remains the case that "sin is transgression of the Law" 1 John 3:4
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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Doctor: Consider that Paul said, "I am a Pharisee of Pharisees" Paul did not say, I was. If Paul says that "imitating" Jesus is good for him, who am I to argue? The meaning here is quite clear to me. Thoughts? Could you define "imitate" from 1Cor.11? Do you agree that Jesus walked the Mosaic instructions Perfectly?

Easy answer. Jesus was not only the Son of God and the Word of God made flesh, He was also a Jew. I am not. Of course he obeyed the Jewish customs and rules. He was circumcised and did all the necessary things that a good Jew was expected to do according to the OT scriptures. But Paul and Peter were very clear that Gentile Christians were not required to eat kosher or be circumcised (which symbolized all the Jewish ceremonial, dietary, and civil laws).

A Christian should never make an argument exclusively based on the Old Testament Law. This is because Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law, ending its requirements (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). Christians are not bound by the Old Testament Law, but rather are to be subject to the Law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-39; Galatians 6:2)--- that is, love God, love your neighbor, and love your brothers and sisters in Christ as He loved us (willing to die for us). Note that Jesus NEVER made a big deal about His disciples resting on the Sabbath, but He made a big deal about many other things. He even healed on the Sabbath (considered 'work' by the Jews) so that he broke this law... but the scriptures are clear that Jesus never sinned.
 
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BobRyan

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LoveGodsWord,
This is a very old topic and legalists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Messianic Jews will keep bringing it up. And they are in error because they do not really understand who Jesus is as "the-Word-of-God-made-flesh" nor do they understand the freedom in Christ which the Apostles taught.

False accusations are cheap and mere fluff.

Try something substantive "instead".
The 4th Commandment (and much of the Mosaic Law) was not abolished but was fulfilled and re-interpreted by Jesus Himself, who is the Lord of the Sabbath. The early Church was not mistaken in this.

Creative writing not at all the material of substantive proof of a good doctrine. Consider "sola scriptura" evidence "instead".

The Lord of the Sabbath is an expression describing Jesus which appears in all three Synoptic Gospels, Matthew 12:1-8, Mark 2:23-28 and Luke 6:1-5. ...

Indeed - Jesus claims that very thing -- thus it is the Sabbath that is "The LORD's Day" according to scripture "The Holy Day of the LORD" Isaiah 58:13

Then he said to them, "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath."


In the first Jerusalem Church Council in Acts 15, the leaders agreed to drop the Jewish requirements on Christians and did not even mention keeping the Sabbath:

They also did not mention "do not take God's name in vain".

There is nothing in the NT claiming that Acts 15 downsized the Bible to 4 sentences for Gentiles.

By contrast Paul says
"what matters is KEEPING the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
where "the commandments of God" are the ones where "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2 in that still-valid unit of Ten. The moral law of God written on the heart as we are told in Jer 31:31-33 where the NEW Covenant includes that very set of Ten.

A Bible detail soooooooo incredibly obvious that even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" (C.H. Spurgeon as well) section 19.. and also the "Westminster Confession of Faith" Section 19 admit to it.

Acts 15
“It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God. Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood." That was not a statement calling for gentiles to delete the entire Bible or to reject anything written beyond those two sentences.

As Paul himself points out not just in Eph 6:2 but in Romans 13 and in 1 Cor 6 and in 2Tim 3:16 where it is "scripture" that is inspired by God AND to be used for doctrine and correction (not just two sentences as some have imagined for us)

Bible details matter.

Acts 15 is about the unbiblical man-made-tradition of demanding that gentiles be circumcised "or they cannot be saved" see Acts 15:1. Something never called for in all the Word of God.

Not only in Acts 15, which eliminated the Jewish ceremonial requirements for Gentile Christians

It was "clarification" because Jewish ceremonial law was never a requirement for gentiles in all of scripture.

As the Confessions of Faith pointed out above - clarify - the ceremonial law ends at the cross - see Hebrews 10:4-12
 
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Dr Bruce Atkinson

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Now brother are you trying to read into the scriptures something that the scriptures are not talking about? (I also encourage all to read the entire chapter) When you read the entire chapter you will see that ROMANS 14 or for that matter all the book of ROMANS does not even mention God's 4th Commandment SABBATH because it is not the CONTEXT or topic of discussion.

Some points to consider in Romans 14:1-15

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.

[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on

[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luke 16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God.

The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[1] the days spoken of are associated with eating/drinking, not eating/not drinking.
[2] the matter is over those 'weak' and 'strong' in faith concerning eating/drinking and days to do and not do those things on
[3] the context deals with "One man esteemeth", and not what God esteems (Isaiah 56:1-8, 58:13; Psalms 89:34) as permanent and so, and God's word is clear about what men esteem: Luk_16:15 And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. The Jews continually argued over which were better days to do this thing or that thing, like fasting, feasting, etc: [Matthew 9:14; Mark 2:18; Luke 5:33, 18:12 KJB]

[4] the words for sabbath is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[5] the words of the seventh day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[6] the words for the Lord's day is not present in all of Romans 14, neither in all of Romans
[7] Romans 14 is in the context of Romans 13, which directly cites the latter (2nd) table of the Ten Commandments, for love to neighbour, which is also found in Leviticus 19:17-18, in the context of sin and the Ten Commandments

[8] Romans 15 is the other end, and when combined with 1 Corinthians 8-10, the context is clear that the sabbath of the LORD thy God (Exodus 20:8-11) is not in view in the least, and is sustained by the rest of Paul in Romans by his statements on the eternal spiritual, holy, just and good Law (Exodus 20:1-17) of God, which identifies what sin is (Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4)

[9] the entire context of Romans 14 is to do nothing (even if allowed normally, yet not under special circumstances) to cause others to sin: Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.

[10] Paul never contradicts himself, and Paul's writings are scripture (2 Peter 3:16), and scripture cannot be broken, John 10:35) and does not teach transgression of God's Law (Exodus 20:1-17) at any point: Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Rom_6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

[11] the words for "law", "commandments" are never used in Romans 14
[12] Paul in numerous places lists and upholds every single one of the Ten Commandments in the NT, including the 4th Commandment (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11) in Hebrews 3-4, etc.

[13] Romans 14 is about excluding those things which were "doubful disputations", and not a single one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-17) were ever doubtful or to be disputed in any place in all of scripture (KJB), for the Commandment of God are "sure" (Psalms 111:7).

[14] the words for "covenant/testament" are never used in Romans 14
[15] the words for 'first [day] of the week' are never used in Romans 14, neither in all of Romans

[16] none of the 'Sunday' (first [day] of the week) churches use Romans 14 to teach that I may ignore the day they gather on, even though that day is not sanctified by God in any way what so ever in scripture (KJB), and is never called "the Lord's day" in scripture, neither is it "the seventh day the sabbath of the LORD thy God".

[17] nobody uses Romans 14 to teach I can simply stop eating/drinking on every day

CONCLUSION: Nope nothing about the Sabbath. Your reading into the scriptures something that it is not talking about. Please feel free to show in all of ROMANS 14 the scripture saying it is talking about God's 4th commandment being ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. If you can't than it is a bit of a gamble brother to come up with that interpretation when God's LAW is the knowledge of SIN if broken and JESUS and all the Apostles kept God's 4th commandment as a Holy day.



Your only telling one side of the story. Historically from GENESIS to REVELATION in God's WORD, all through time after to this very present day, God's people have always kept God's 4th Commandment SABBATH unbroken since creation and afterwards following the example of JESUS and the APOSTLES. Can't get much better than that I would imagine can you? JESUS and the APOSTLES all kept God's SABBATH according to the commandment. SUNDAY on the other hand is a teaching and tradition of men that has not basis in the scriptures that have led many to break God's 4th commandment. JESUS says those who knowingly follow the teachings and traditions of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who should we believe and follow God or men *ACTS 5:29; ROMANS 3:4?



Nope! God's 4th Commandment is the SEVENTH DAY of the week *GENESIS 2:1-3. It is the ONLY day that God BLESSED and made a HOLY DAY. JESUS made it for mankind *MARK 2:27-28 and commands his people to REMEMBER the SEVENTH DAY of the week (SABBATH) as a MEMORIAL of creation. God's SABBATH was a part of a FINISHED WORK *GENESIS 2:1-3 BEFORE SIN entered the world when mankind was in perfect harmony with God and BEFORE a need for God's plan of salvation so can NEVER be a shadow of anything. The SEVENTH DAY SABBATH is a memorial of creation that God has commanded us to keep is as a HOLY (none of our work) day every SEVENTH DAY *EXODUS 20:8-11. God's 4th Commandment is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. If we break ANY ONE of the ten commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. God's WORD says that all those who continue to practice KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.


This has already been addressed as a false allegation and strawman argument that no one is arguing about. We are only saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *EPHESIANS 2:8. Now my friend, if no one is saying we are saved by what we do then why try and make claims that no one is claiming? If no one is claiming what you are claiming then your statement has no basis in truth and is simply a false statement. God's WORD is a very old topic and we should believe and follow it. JESUS says those who follow the teachings and traditions of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. Who should we believe ad follow; God or men *ROMANS 3:4; ACTS 5:29? God's ten commandments are not ceremonial laws from the shadow laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the covenant *EXODUS 24:7. As already stated God's 10 commandments are God's MORAL laws that give us the KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL; SIN AND RIGHTEOUSNESS *ROMANS 3:20; ROMANS 7:7; 1 JOHN 3:4; PSALMS 119:172. If we break ANY ONE of the ten commandments we stand guilty before God of sin. God's WORD says that all those who continue to practice KNOWN UNREPENTANT sin will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN *HEBREWS 10:26-27 because they reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23.



Not really brother. If you are not a part of God's ISRAEL then you have no part in the NEW COVENANT *HEBREWS 8:10-12. Gentiles are now grafted in *ROMANS 11:13-27. Your mixing up the SHADOW laws from the MOSAIC BOOK of the COVENANT EXODUS 24:7 with God's eternal law (10 commandments) that give us the KNOWLEDGE of what sin is if broken that are a part of the OLD and NEW COVENANT scriptures. If you do not know what the OLD COVENANT is how can you understand the NEW COVENANT that the OLD pointed to? We are not saved by God's LAW in the NEW COVENANT. They are the mirror *JAMES 4:17 that shows us that we are all sinners in need of a Saviour *MATTHEW 9:12-13; GALATIANS 3:22-25, so that we might be free (from sin) to walk in God's SPIRIT (ROMANS 8:1-4; 13-14; GALATIANS 5:16; ROMANS 3:31; 1 JOHN 2:3-4; 1 JOHN 3:3-10; ROMANS 13:8-10. This is the NEW COVENANT promise of all those who are BORN AGAIN to LOVE and to walk in God's Spirit *HEBREWS 8:10-12; JOHN 8:31-36.

...............

Now Bruce, can you see your error here brother? Even after your lenghty post you have not answered one of the questions or provided a single scriture that says God's 4th Commandment has been ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to keep Sunday as a Holy day. Does that not bother you brother when God's 4th commandment is one of the 10 Commandments that give us a knowledge of what sin is if broken? Who should we believe and follow, God or man *ROMANS 3:4? I know who I believe *MATTHEW 15:3-9; MARK 16:16. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it.

Sorry brother Bruce, God's WORD disagrees with you. Hope this helps.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

I hear no grace in your response, only a sense of superiority. And I must say that you have zero authority over me. Why should I answer your many questions according to your own requirements?

If you insist on being a legalist, then I hope you are obeying every jot and tittle. Especially the Sabbath, which even Jesus Himself broke (healing a man, which was regarded as work, and allowing His disciples to take grain from fields, also considered work).

Now I have other responsibilities to take care of. Have a blessed Christmas, with further revelations of grace.
 
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BobRyan

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we also hear from Paul in Romans 14:4-6 (I encourage all to read the entire chapter): "Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand.


One person esteems (observes) one day above another while another esteems (observes) every day.

That is a reference to the Bible-approved annual Holy Days of Lev 23.

By contrast in Galatians 4 Paul condemns even ONE observance of a pagan holy day.

Writing to former-pagans Paul says this in Gal 4
8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

Not even one of the pagan days is "allowed" by Paul.

Romans 14 cannot be bent into "
changing the holy day from Saturday to Sunday (or to all days) is never commanded, it is clearly allowed. " -- such creative writing is not even remotely derived from the details in the text.

Historically, in everywhere but Israel, the early Church quickly moved to gathering for worship on the first day of the week (Resurrection Sunday) and eventually the "weekend" (both Saturday and Sunday) became days of rest and/or worship. Are you saying that the Church (now essentially Gentile believers) was wrong in doing this?

Some man-made-traditions did creep in over time as you assert.

Paul says this --

Acts 20
28 Be on guard for yourselves and for all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. 29 I know that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock; 30 and from among your own selves men will arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after them. 31 Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Paul instructs Timothy to stay at Ephesus and try to put a lid on rebellion and apostasy --

1 Tim 1
3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines, 4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith

He instructs Titus to try and shut it down.

Jude writes and has to change the entire tone and direction of his letter to get the church members to war against the rising tide of apostasy and false doctrine already flooding the church.


Since Jesus (the King of kings and Lord of the Sabbath) came, died for us on Good Friday, was Resurrected on following Sunday, and began the Kingdom of God on earth, are not all days now equally Sabbatical and holy?

No bible text says that ... you "quote you" -- how instructive for the unbiased objective reader.

By contrast we note that instead of all days being called "Sabbath" in the NT - not one writer does it. Rather the term in all the NT is reserved alone for the 7th day Sabbath.

What is more "Every Sabbath" they gather for gospel preaching in the synagogue in Acts 18:4.

Not "every week-day-1"



Perhaps our listeners would benefit from the Apostolic teachings about the purpose of the Law in Judaism. When Paul condemned relying upon “works of the law” in Galatians and elsewhere, he certainly had in mind circumcision, food laws, and the Sabbath.

The fallacy there is the idea that the Word of God must be evil. Paul is not preaching against God's Word as if it "became bad after the cross". Salvation by works is never limited to "food laws" - or the abuse of them.

He kept the moral laws intact as applicable to everyone, but these other particularly Jewish cultural, ceremonial,

Paul points out that the moral law of God includes that unique set of TEN in which "the 5th commandment is the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2.

1 Cor 7:19 is where Paul contrasts that moral law of God with ceremonial law such as circumcision "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God"

No wonder then Christ said "The Sabbath was MADE for mankind" Mark 2:27
No wonder then Isaiah 66:23 has all mankind keeping Sabbath for all eternity after the cross where God says "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"
No wonder gentiles are specifically singled out for 7th day Sabbath keeping in Isaiah 56:6-8.
No wonder it is gentiles that are asking for "more Gospel preaching the NEXT Sabbath" in Acts 13.

No wonder the confessions of Faith state that the TEN -- all TEN - are binding not only on the saints but upon all mankind starting in EDEN and to this very day.

Rom 3:31"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God"

Romans 8:4-10 reminds us that it is only the lost that "do not submit to the LAW of God - neither indeed CAN they"

Gal 3
21 Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law. 22 But the Scripture has shut up everyone under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. 24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. 26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

in all ages the LAW points out the need of salvation to the lost sinner as we see in the text of Gal 3 and as Romans 3:19-21 also point out. This is its role for the lost. but when we come to faith - then that same moral law of God - is then written on the heart.

Thus it is STILL a sin for saved saint "to take God's name in vain" just as it is for the lost sinner. The difference is that for the saved saint - that law is now written on the heart. For in the case of the saved "faith has come".

The meaning is quite clear
 
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BobRyan

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LoveGodsWord,
This is a very old topic and legalists, Seventh Day Adventists, and Messianic Jews will keep bringing it up. And they are in error because they do not really understand who Jesus is as "the-Word-of-God-made-flesh" nor do they understand the freedom in Christ which the Apostles taught.

hmm my initial response to that would be something like...

I hear no grace in your response, only a sense of superiority. And I must say that you have zero authority .

i was about to post that to you ... I appreciate your offering it up for us as an example of what I would have been talking about.
 
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BobRyan

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BTW the Church of England is not exactly "tone deaf" on this topic either.

"The text of the Commandments is found in two places in the Bible. In Exodus 20.1–17, God speaks these words after the people of Israel have consecrated themselves at Mount Sinai. They are inscribed on two tablets of the covenant, ‘written with the finger of God’, the first and most important part of the Law of God, and they are a gift of God to the people of Israel – and through them to the whole of humankind."
The Commandments | The Church of England
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I hear no grace in your response, only a sense of superiority. And I must say that you have zero authority over me. Why should I answer your many questions according to your own requirements?

If you insist on being a legalist, then I hope you are obeying every jot and tittle. Especially the Sabbath, which even Jesus Himself broke (healing a man, which was regarded as work, and allowing His disciples to take grain from fields, also considered work).

Now I have other responsibilities to take care of. Have a blessed Christmas, with further revelations of grace.

Now brother there is no need to be unkind with your posting. If you have God's Word to share then share it. If you do not then why not BELIEVE God's WORD that is freely shared with you?

I am only a sinner in need of a Saviour just the same as you. My grace and superiority is only found in the Word of God. They are God's Words not mine so I cannot take any credit for them. All I hear from you is your words so your argument is with God not me. I know who I believe and follow and he calls me in love to love another. My duty to you is in love for God is love and he can only be found in his WORD so it is here that I point all so seeing they may see and hearing they may hear.

If you have scriptures to share then share them if not why make claims here that no one is making or why try to falsley label people by something you cannot prove especcially a second time after being corrected? Using your own words is not God's WORD. I will leave that between you and God.

Please feel free to respond to the two posts and all the scriptures in them that disagree with your claims in your first post # 400 in post # 402 linked and post # 403 linked and don't forget post # 396 linked. Ignoring God's Word does not make it magically dissappear.

You are free to believe and do as you wish. We all answer only to God come judgment day for the scriptures we have chosen to believe or not believe *JOHN 12:47-48. Only God's WORD is true and we should believe and follow it. JESUS says those who follow the teachings and traditions of men are not following God *MATTHEW 15:3-9. God's WORD also tells us that many do not know what grace is for *ROMANS 1:5 or do they know the reason for faith *ROMANS 3:31. No one enters Heaven on dead faith *JAMES 2:18-20; 26.

May God help you as you seek him through his Word.

God's sheep hear his Voice (the Word)
 
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Easy answer. Jesus was not only the Son of God and the Word of God made flesh, He was also a Jew. I am not. Of course he obeyed the Jewish customs and rules. He was circumcised and did all the necessary things that a good Jew was expected to do according to the OT scriptures. But Paul and Peter were very clear that Gentile Christians were not required to eat kosher or be circumcised (which symbolized all the Jewish ceremonial, dietary, and civil laws).

A Christian should never make an argument exclusively based on the Old Testament Law. This is because Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law, ending its requirements (Romans 10:4; Galatians 3:23-25; Ephesians 2:15). Christians are not bound by the Old Testament Law, but rather are to be subject to the Law of Christ (Matthew 22:37-39; Galatians 6:2)--- that is, love God, love your neighbor, and love your brothers and sisters in Christ as He loved us (willing to die for us). Note that Jesus NEVER made a big deal about His disciples resting on the Sabbath, but He made a big deal about many other things. He even healed on the Sabbath (considered 'work' by the Jews) so that he broke this law... but the scriptures are clear that Jesus never sinned.

Thank you. Could you also explain what Paul meant when he said "imitate" me just as I also imitate Jesus?
 
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BobRyan

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Thank you. Could you also explain what Paul meant when he said "imitate" me just as I also imitate Jesus?

Paul never says "I am doing the wrong thing as a Christian -- follow someone else".
On the other hand - as we see in Galatians 2 in the case of Titus - Paul does not command gentiles to be circumcised and keep the annual feast days of Lev 23.

But to all Paul says "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19
 
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BNR32FAN

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Sir: Are you suggesting that Paul is not a Pharisee? Second, do you believe Paul did everything to "imitate" Jesus and asked us to do the same, 1Cor11? The best we can do is to seek to imitate Jesus as closely as we can. Only when we are called good and faithful servants are we perfected with Him. Thoughts?

I’m not certain to be honest. I guess it depends on the aspect of how you define Pharisee. If you mean a Jewish religion leader then I would say yes but Jesus and the apostles viewed the Pharisees as corrupt Jewish religion leaders who were outwardly righteous but inwardly corrupt. The term Pharisee in the New Testament seems to be more of a unfavorable position in the eyes of Jesus rather than a favorable one. So I’m not sure if Paul is saying I was a Pharisee or I am a Pharisee.
 
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Paul never says "I am doing the wrong thing as a Christian -- follow someone else".
On the other hand - as we see in Galatians 2 in the case of Titus - Paul does not command gentiles to be circumcised and keep the annual feast days of Lev 23.

But to all Paul says "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

I agree we should keep the commandments of God. I asked my pastor what Paul meant by "imitate" and he had no answer. Can you tell me what Paul meant by "imitate"? Did he mean we should imitate some of Jesus' walk or seek to walk just like Him? We cannot walk perfectly, but we could try. Is this what Paul meant?
 
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Anderseric

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I’m not certain to be honest. I guess it depends on the aspect of how you define Pharisee. If you mean a Jewish religion leader then I would say yes but Jesus and the apostles viewed the Pharisees as corrupt Jewish religion leaders who were outwardly righteous but inwardly corrupt. The term Pharisee in the New Testament seems to be more of a unfavorable position in the eyes of Jesus rather than a favorable one. So I’m not sure if Paul is saying I was a Pharisee or I am a Pharisee.


Fair enough. I wonder if Jesus had issues with Pharisees because they made commandments of men or because of their faith in God? Jesus did rebuke them for saying that a believer must wash their hands. Jesus said there was no commandment like that. That does not mean washing our hands is bad. The Pharisees wanted, I think, to disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
Another question: Jesus said He came only for the lost children of the House of Israel. Who are the lost children of the House of Israel?
 
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BNR32FAN

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Paul never says "I am doing the wrong thing as a Christian -- follow someone else".
On the other hand - as we see in Galatians 2 in the case of Titus - Paul does not command gentiles to be circumcised and keep the annual feast days of Lev 23.

But to all Paul says "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

I agree that in Acts 15 we see the apostles overrule the necessity of circumcision based on the purpose of the commandments rather than following the letter of the commandments. I believe that this is Jesus’ message in Matthew 22:37-40.

“Jesus replied, “‘You must love the LORD your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. A second is equally important: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ The entire law and all the demands of the prophets are based on these two commandments.””
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:37-40‬

According to this I come to the conclusion that we are now under the purpose for which the laws were created not under the letter of the law itself. The purpose of the Sabbath is to honor God. Personally I believe we can do this on any day or every day of the week. I would like to quote brother Peter from Acts 15:8-11

God knows people’s hearts, and he confirmed that he accepts Gentiles by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as he did to us. He made no distinction between us and them, for he cleansed their hearts through faith. So why are you now challenging God by burdening the Gentile believers with a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors were able to bear? We believe that we are all saved the same way, by the undeserved grace of the Lord Jesus.””
‭‭Acts of the Apostles‬ ‭15:8-11‬

Do only those who keep the Saturday Sabbath possess the Holy Spirit? I would say absolutely not. I’ve witnessed the Holy Spirit working in both myself and many others who worship on Sunday. I believe this is a confirmation that God has confirmed that He accepts our worship on Sunday to honor His Son Jesus Christ and it is pleasing to Him.
 
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Fair enough. I wonder if Jesus had issues with Pharisees because they made commandments of men or because of their faith in God? Jesus did rebuke them for saying that a believer must wash their hands. Jesus said there was no commandment like that. That does not mean washing our hands is bad. The Pharisees wanted, I think, to disqualify Jesus as the Messiah.
Another question: Jesus said He came only for the lost children of the House of Israel. Who are the lost children of the House of Israel?

That’s a good question. I’m not sure. Romans 9 comes to mind as well as Acts 3:25-26. But I’m not able to make a clear distinction. I do believe that Jesus died for the sins of the world but only those who believe and abide will receive grace and be forgiven of their sins and be allowed to enter Heaven.
 
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