Let's discuss Israel

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Duet 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
We need to read Romans 11. In the 2nd verse Paul says that Israel is not cast away and points to himself as evidence. He became a follower of Christ and he worked for the salvation of the Jews all through his ministry, even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles. In verse 7 he says "Israel has not obtained what it seeks." Then in verses 19-22 where he is talking about us (Gentiles) being grafted into their olive tree, he says: "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." The words "did not spare" let us know that as a nation he considered the Jews no longer God's people. As individuals they can still have salvation; as individuals they are no different from anyone else. As a nation, too, they are no different: all need Jesus. Now consider Galatians 3:29. "And if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." All the promises of scripture are for God's people. Today Christians are that people if they "continue in His (God's) goodness."

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Got Questions.Org
Question: "What does it mean that the Jews are God’s chosen people?"

Answer: God’s Word affirms that the Jews are God’s chosen people: “You are a people holy to the Lord your God. The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession” (Deuteronomy 7:6). From eternity past God knew that He would need to be born into the human race in order to save us from the spiritually dead condition that we were in (Ephesians 1—2; Genesis 3). God had planned from the beginning to be born into a very small nation or race of people called the Jews. The Old Testament tells the story of how God set about creating, distinguishing, and preserving that race.

The ultimate goal of God’s choice of the Jews as His chosen people was to produce the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who would be the Savior of the world. Jesus had to come from some nation or people, and God chose Israel. God first promised the Savior/Messiah after Adam and Eve sinned (Genesis 3). Later, God specified that the Messiah would come from the line of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (Genesis 12). Later still, He narrowed the Messiah’s ancestry to the line of David (2 Samuel 7). Throughout their history, the people of Israel were aware of their “chosen” status before God (see 1 Kings 3:8; 8:53; Psalm 105:43; Isaiah 43:4; 65:9; and Amos 3:2). The fact that God has an eternal future for Israel is evident in that five sixths of the Bible bears directly or indirectly upon them—Jesus being the central figure who brought the Jews and Gentiles together (Ephesians 2:14).

The fact that the Jews are God’s chosen people means that they have been held to a high standard. From those who are given much, much is required (Luke 12:48), or as God said through one prophet, “You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins” (Amos 3:2).

Israel’s responsibilities have included keeping and preserving the Law (Joshua 22:5); being “a kingdom of priests and a holy nation” (Exodus 19:6); and bringing “renown and praise and honor” to the Lord (Jeremiah 13:11). Their high calling is straight from the God who chose them out of all the nations of the earth.

Hazelelponi · Dec 23, 2018

Southernscotty said:
Duet 14:2 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.
We need to read Romans 11. In the 2nd verse Paul says that Israel is not cast away and points to himself as evidence. He became a follower of Christ and he worked for the salvation of the Jews all through his ministry, even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles. In verse 7 he says "Israel has not obtained what it seeks." Then in verses 19-22 where he is talking about us (Gentiles) being grafted into their olive tree, he says: "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off." The words "did not spare" let us know that as a nation he considered the Jews no longer God's people. As individuals they can still have salvation; as individuals they are no different from anyone else. As a nation, too, they are no different: all need Jesus. Now consider Galatians 3:29. "And if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." All the promises of scripture are for God's people. Today Christians are that people if they "continue in His (God's) goodness."

Hello... we live post 70 AD.

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
Hello... we live post 70 AD.

Lol, Yes God is the same yesterday, Today and tomorrow.
Here is Got questions again friend, I do believe this with all my heart.

Question: "Are Israel and the church the same thing? Does God still have a plan for Israel?"

Answer: This topic is one of the more controversial in the Church today, and it has significant implications regarding the way we interpret Scripture, especially concerning the end times. More importantly, it has great significance in that it affects the way we understand the very nature and character of God Himself.

Romans 11:16-36 records the illustration of the olive tree. This passage speaks of Israel the (“natural” branches) being broken off from the olive tree, and the Church (“wild” branches or shoots) being grafted into the olive tree. Since Israel is referred to as branches, as well as the Church, it stands to reason that neither group is the “whole tree,” so to speak; rather, the whole tree represents God’s workings with mankind as a whole. Therefore, God’s program with Israel and God’s program with the Church are part of the outworking of His purpose among men in general. Of course, this is not intended to mean that either program is of little significance. As many commentators have noted, more space is given in the Bible regarding God’s programs with Israel and with the Church than any of God’s other dealings!

In Genesis 12, God promised Abraham that he would be the father of a great nation (the Jews), the Jews would possess a land, that nation would be blessed above all other nations, and all other nations would be blessed from Israel. So, from the beginning God revealed that Israel would be His chosen people on the earth, but that His blessing would not be limited to them exclusively. Galatians 3:14 identifies the nature of the blessing to come to all the other nations: “That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” All the nations of the world were blessed by Israel, through whom the Savior of the world came.

God’s plan of redemption is built upon the finished work of Jesus Christ, a descendant of David and Abraham. But Christ’s death on the cross is sufficient for the sins of the entire world, not just the Jews! Galatians 3:6-8states, “Consider Abraham: ‘He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.’ Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: ‘All nations will be blessed through you.’” Finally, Galatians 3:29 says, “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.” In other words, in Christ, believers are counted righteous by faith in the same way that Abraham was (Galatians 3:6-8). If we are in Christ, then we are partakers of the blessing of Israel and all nations in the redemptive work of Christ. Believers become the spiritual descendants of Abraham. Believers do not become physical Jews, but they may enjoy the same type of blessings and privileges as the Jews.

Now, this does not contradict or nullify the revelation given in the Old Testament. God’s promises in the Old Testament are still valid, and God’s relationship with Israel as a chosen people points to the work of Christ as a Redeemer of the whole world. The Mosaic Law is still mandatory for all Jews who have not yet accepted Christ as their Messiah. Jesus did what they could not do—fulfill the Law in all its details (Matthew 5:17). As New Testament believers, we are no longer under the curse of the Law (Galatians 3:13), because Christ has taken that curse upon Himself on the cross. The Law served two purposes: to reveal sin and mankind’s inability (on his own merit) to do anything about it, and to point us to Christ, who fulfills the Law. His death on the cross completely satisfies God’s righteous requirement of perfection.

God’s unconditional promises are not invalidated by the unfaithfulness of man. Nothing we do is ever a surprise to God, and He does not need to adjust His plans according to the way we behave. No, God is sovereign over all things—past, present and future—and what He has foreordained for both Israel and the Church will come to pass, regardless of circumstances. Romans 3:3-4 explains that Israel’s unbelief would not nullify His promises concerning them: “What if some did not have faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's faithfulness? Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: ‘So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge.’"

Promises made to Israel are still going to be kept in the future. We can be sure that all God has said is true and will take place, because of His character and consistency. The Church does not replace Israel and should not expect a symbolic fulfillment of the promises of the Old Covenant As one reads Scripture, it is necessary to keep Israel and the Church separate.

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Again, With all my heart :]

Question: "What is dispensationalism and is it biblical?"

Answer: A dispensation is a way of ordering things—an administration, a system, or a management. In theology, a dispensation is the divine administration of a period of time; each dispensation is a divinely appointed age. Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy, and 2) a view of the uniqueness of Israel as separate from the Church in God’s program. Classical dispensationalism identifies seven dispensations in God’s plan for humanity.

Dispensationalists hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible as the best hermeneutic. The literal interpretation gives each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. It is understood that even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them. So, for example, when the Bible speaks of “a thousand years” in Revelation 20, dispensationalists interpret it as a literal period of 1,000 years (the dispensation of the Kingdom), since there is no compelling reason to interpret it otherwise.

There are at least two reasons why literalism is the best way to view Scripture. First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself requires that we interpret words literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate. Words are vessels of meaning. The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus’ birth, ministry, death, and resurrection all occurred exactly as the Old Testament predicted. The prophecies were literal. There is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of “the Bible says.” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called Bible study today.

Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by grace through faith alone—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament. Dispensationalists hold that the Church has not replaced Israel in God’s program and that the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the Church. Dispensationalism teaches that the promises God made to Israel in the Old Testament (for land, many descendants, and blessings) will be ultimately fulfilled in the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation 20. Dispensationalists believe that, just as God is in this age focusing His attention on the Church, He will again in the future focus His attention on Israel (see Romans 9–11 and Daniel 9:24).

Dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1—3:7), Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22), Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32), Promise (Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25), Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4), Grace (Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3), and the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Each dispensation includes a recognizable pattern of how God worked with people living in the dispensation. That pattern is 1) a responsibility, 2) a failure, 3) a judgment, and 4) grace to move on.

Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a distinction between Israel and the Church, and organizes the Bible into different dispensations or administrations.

Hazelelponi · Dec 23, 2018

Southernscotty said:
Again, With all my heart :]

Question: "What is dispensationalism and is it biblical?"

Answer: A dispensation is a way of ordering things—an administration, a system, or a management. In theology, a dispensation is the divine administration of a period of time; each dispensation is a divinely appointed age. Dispensationalism is a theological system that recognizes these ages ordained by God to order the affairs of the world. Dispensationalism has two primary distinctives: 1) a consistently literal interpretation of Scripture, especially Bible prophecy, and 2) a view of the uniqueness of Israel as separate from the Church in God’s program. Classical dispensationalism identifies seven dispensations in God’s plan for humanity.

Dispensationalists hold to a literal interpretation of the Bible as the best hermeneutic. The literal interpretation gives each word the meaning it would commonly have in everyday usage. Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. It is understood that even symbols and figurative sayings have literal meanings behind them. So, for example, when the Bible speaks of “a thousand years” in Revelation 20, dispensationalists interpret it as a literal period of 1,000 years (the dispensation of the Kingdom), since there is no compelling reason to interpret it otherwise.

There are at least two reasons why literalism is the best way to view Scripture. First, philosophically, the purpose of language itself requires that we interpret words literally. Language was given by God for the purpose of being able to communicate. Words are vessels of meaning. The second reason is biblical. Every prophecy about Jesus Christ in the Old Testament was fulfilled literally. Jesus’ birth, ministry, death, and resurrection all occurred exactly as the Old Testament predicted. The prophecies were literal. There is no non-literal fulfillment of messianic prophecies in the New Testament. This argues strongly for the literal method. If a literal interpretation is not used in studying the Scriptures, there is no objective standard by which to understand the Bible. Each person would be able to interpret the Bible as he saw fit. Biblical interpretation would devolve into “what this passage says to me” instead of “the Bible says.” Sadly, this is already the case in much of what is called Bible study today.

Dispensational theology teaches that there are two distinct peoples of God: Israel and the Church. Dispensationalists believe that salvation has always been by grace through faith alone—in God in the Old Testament and specifically in God the Son in the New Testament. Dispensationalists hold that the Church has not replaced Israel in God’s program and that the Old Testament promises to Israel have not been transferred to the Church. Dispensationalism teaches that the promises God made to Israel in the Old Testament (for land, many descendants, and blessings) will be ultimately fulfilled in the 1000-year period spoken of in Revelation 20. Dispensationalists believe that, just as God is in this age focusing His attention on the Church, He will again in the future focus His attention on Israel (see Romans 9–11 and Daniel 9:24).

Dispensationalists understand the Bible to be organized into seven dispensations: Innocence (Genesis 1:1—3:7), Conscience (Genesis 3:8—8:22), Human Government (Genesis 9:1—11:32), Promise (Genesis 12:1—Exodus 19:25), Law (Exodus 20:1—Acts 2:4), Grace (Acts 2:4—Revelation 20:3), and the Millennial Kingdom (Revelation 20:4–6). Again, these dispensations are not paths to salvation, but manners in which God relates to man. Each dispensation includes a recognizable pattern of how God worked with people living in the dispensation. That pattern is 1) a responsibility, 2) a failure, 3) a judgment, and 4) grace to move on.

Dispensationalism, as a system, results in a premillennial interpretation of Christ’s second coming and usually a pretribulational interpretation of the rapture. To summarize, dispensationalism is a theological system that emphasizes the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy, recognizes a distinction between Israel and the Church, and organizes the Bible into different dispensations or administrations.

I don't believe in "dispensations" Period. I need no one's view on it and certainly not large swathes of copy paste jobs because you can't articulate your beliefs. The Bible and history does not support dispensationalism.

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Does the fact that dispensational theology is a recent development argue against its legitimacy?
What are the seven dispensations?

I copied these for whenever you get the chance to read them. It saves me a lot of typing and they are solid. I use this site often
Moody bible Institute and Dallas theological Seminary use this method of interpretation.

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
I don't believe in "dispensations" Period. I need no one's view on it and certainly not large swathes of copy paste jobs because can't articulate your beliefs. The Bible and history does not support dispensationalism.

How can you study the bible without a dispensation? The OT and NT are one lol
It is a way and period in which God dealt with a people a certain way.
It is most certainly biblical and literary and that is how the bible should be studied.
The word dispensation is used 4 times and Heb 1:1 says this very thing! Sundry times and various or diverse manners

Hazelelponi · Dec 23, 2018

When you can manage to discuss beliefs without walls of copy/paste jobs I'll be here.

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
When you can manage to discuss beliefs without walls of copy/paste jobs I'll be here.

I just did. Look 188

mkgal1 · Dec 23, 2018

Well, this is awkward timing to copy & paste something, but here goes (looking at the covenants in the Bible really opened my eyes - so I thought I'd share this):

Quoting from linked article - The Mosaic covenant is part of the broader covenant of grace. It may include provisions that remind God’s people of the covenant of works, but we must not think that the Israelites who lived under the Mosaic covenant owed their salvation to works and not to grace. Secondly, we must also remember that the Lord’s revelation of redemption is progressively unfurled. Later covenants do not supersede previous revelation; rather, they help to reveal and expand the earlier covenants more fully. The Mosaic covenant further unfolds the Abrahamic covenant, both of these are unfolded by the Davidic covenant, and the new covenant displays the intent and purpose of these pacts most clearly of all. - Ligonier Ministries

mkgal1 · Dec 23, 2018

Southernscotty said:
How can you study the bible without a dispensation?
It is most certainly biblical and literary and that is how the bible should be studied.
The word dispensation is used 4 times and Heb 1:1 says this very thing! Sundry times and various or diverse manners

When you use that term, do you simply mean this (I copy & paste a lot y'all )? :

*(in Christian theology) a divinely ordained order prevailing at a particular period of history.
"the Mosaic dispensation"

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

mkgal1 said:
When you use that term, do you simply mean this (I copy & paste a lot y'all )? :

*(in Christian theology) a divinely ordained order prevailing at a particular period of history.
"the Mosaic dispensation"

YUP!! Lol... It is exactly what I believe so I just copy it and it saves me time because I was working on something else and didn't have time to explain that much, Plus I wouldn't have explained it that well anyway :]

mkgal1 · Dec 23, 2018

That's my reasoning as well (why I copy & paste).

I agree with divine order and the importance of particular periods of history, but not the rest that goes along with the dispensationalist theology. I believe that the ancient Jews understood two periods of time when it pertains to the Bible (the current age & the age to come). For us - living in post 70 AD - the "age to come" that's mentioned in the Bible has come (and that's an eternal age - where Christ reigns forever).

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

mkgal1 said:
That's my reasoning as well (why I copy & paste).

I agree with divine order and the importance of particular periods of history, but not the rest that goes along with the dispensationalist theology. I believe that the ancient Jews understood two periods of time, when it pertains to the Bible (the current age & the age to come). For us - living in post 70 AD - the "age to come" that's mentioned in the Bible has come (and that's an eternal age - where Christ reigns forever).

We have history, Doctrine and prophecy to decode, It can get awfully confusing if we don't study and see the timelines presented.
I find that God in Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
This tells me that He did indeed speak differently unto the various groups and it is the only way that I can make sense of those time periods.
It seems many people still think we are under the OT laws in some forms and have trouble seeing the transition.
It is ok, I believe my way and them theirs :] I Still love them, Amen!!

Deborah D · Dec 23, 2018

Southernscotty said:
Ok I would like some opinions on this issue because I am in total and complete disagreement with this "theology"
I haven't spent any time really researching this until today, However a dear friend is stating his belief that Israel has been replaced by the church.
I can not comprehend this thinking as I read my bible and the many scriptures in it pointing to the fact that Israel is indeed the apple of God's eyes and He is the same yesterday, Today and tomorrow.
My bible [KJV Personally] Points to Israel being very special in God's eyes and in fact the Israelites were the ones given the very Oracles of God.

I thought it would be interesting how many here believe this replacement theology .

Perhaps we can see some differing views on this and tell us what scriptures supports your basis?
I have deliberately left out any scripture supporting and/or opposing this view so that you can use them yourself as to why you concur or oppose?

This is my very first poll so hopefully I have done this correctly
Thank You

I'm with you on this. I'm familiar with Replacement Theology, but I haven't studied this issue much.

My thought is that if the Church replaced Israel, why would God reestablish Israel as a nation? The fact that Israel exists as a nation is a mighty act of God. I'm amazed how God used the evil United Nations to accomplish His plan.

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

Deborah D said:
I'm with you on this. I'm familiar with Replacement Theology, but I haven't studied this issue much.

My thought is that if the Church replaced Israel, why would God reestablish Israel as a nation? The fact that Israel exists as a nation is a mighty act of God. I'm amazed how God used the evil United Nations to accomplish His plan.

I agree Sister :] Thank you

ItIsFinished! · Dec 23, 2018

Deborah D said:
I'm with you on this. I'm familiar with Replacement Theology, but I haven't studied this issue much.

My thought is that if the Church replaced Israel, why would God reestablish Israel as a nation? The fact that Israel exists as a nation is a mighty act of God. I'm amazed how God used the evil United Nations to accomplish His plan.

You are on the right track friend.
Key word , WHY.
My answer: He didn't!

Our Saviour is far done with the nation of Israel.

Hazelelponi · Dec 23, 2018

Southernscotty said:
YUP!! Lol... It is exactly what I believe so I just copy it and it saves me time because I was working on something else and didn't have time to explain that much, Plus I wouldn't have explained it that well anyway :]

When you come at someone who believes in something, and misrepresent their beliefs to them through a copy paste article that's nothing but untruths about what s being believed, you don't demonstrate knowledge of the topic...

I don't debate with Muslims because I was one and know every apologetic argument inside and out. i know the responses on both sides 10 moves ahead of what is said in the immediate time. It's a pointless argument to get into when the lies of apologetics begin because arguments become circular and truth flies out the window.

So when in Christianity the lies of apologetics comes out and walls of copy/pasted text begins because a simple conversation about your own beliefs can't be had and instead you feel you must begin with lies about mine (to my face) to try and make yours look better to those ignorant of my beliefs who might be reading I simply shut off like a light switch.

I don't do lies. And I don't do people who tell me made up lies about my own beliefs instead of asking me directly what I believe. It shows a distinct lack of any desire to learn what I think, or to learn about what I believe. In short, your telling me I'm here wasting my time because your here for the show..

Southernscotty · Dec 23, 2018

How can you study the bible without a dispensation? The OT and NT are one lol
It is a way and period in which God dealt with a people a certain way.
It is most certainly biblical and literary and that is how the bible should be studied.
The word dispensation is used 4 times and Heb 1:1 says this very thing! Sundry times and various or diverse manners
This is what I posted earlier to you and so lets ask "what do you believe"?

See I posted those answers because they are MY belief otherwise I wouldn't have copied them. I use Got question. org often and find them to be very solid with my baptist doctrine
@Hazelelponi

Let's discuss Israel

Has the church replaced Israel?

Yes-- The church replaced Israel

No--Israel is the apple of Gods' eye

Undecided-- Don't Know

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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Prayer Warrior

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Jesus Christ is our only hope.

:sighing:

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