Open Theism

hedrick

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On the one hand, free will is important because there's the (correct) desire to say that people are responsible for their fate. Man is fallen and predisposed to sin, so man freely makes the wrong choices, which necessitates his salvation/grace from God. After all - what would it really say about a God that damned people that had no choice in their actions. Free will is important, because it makes the judgment fair. Man brought it upon himself.
Free will has been defined in too many ways. I'd say that fair judgement requires responsible choice. To me choice is responsible if it truly reflects my characters and goals. The fact that my thought process is so coherent that there was never any doubt about what I'd do is irrelevant.
 
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hedrick

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How many people who believe in Arminianism don't also believe in open theism?

In principle, Arminians can accept Molinism, simple foreknowledge, or open theism. But it seems that many Arminians think if one's choice can even in principle be foreknown by God, it's not free. As far as I can tell, that's open theism.

It seems to me that simple foreknowledge has the same ethical issues as Calvinism (though it may be more consistent with Scripture). The problem is that if God is omnipotent in the sense non-open theists mean it, he created the world knowing the consequences for everyone he would create. While he may not have set about to damn specific people, he knowingly created the universe in a way that would result in their being damned. (William Lane Craig suggests that God created the universe in such a way that the only people who would be damned are those who would be damned in all possible universes. An interesting idea if it makes sense. I'm not sure it does.)

In response to this, apparently many Arminians say that God didn't know everything that people were going to do until he had decided to create the universe, because until he had made that decision, there was nothing to foreknow. That means he's not responsible for damning specific people. But it seems to have similar consequences for omniscience / omnipotence as open theism, and I'm not sure it should really be considered different.

My sense is that from an ethical point of view, there's only two alternatives: Calvinism and open theism. Others are equivalent to one of these.
 
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DZoolander

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Gotta admit - I’m not really well versed at all on Arminianism or the history of open theism (I’ve simply just always had problems with the idea of free will vs God’s perfect foreknowledge) - and was only introduced to those terms on here the other day.

But for your question - yeah - that’s pretty much what I think. If God has absolute and perfect foreknowledge of your actions - then your actions are not free. Rather you are simply following/cruising down your pre-ordained path.

..,and that’s not “free”

Because I don’t like the implications of that - and all things considered find that hard to reconcile with the idea of a Just and Good God - my method of resolving the problem is to say that God does not have that foreknowledge. God knows perfectly what has been and what is - but what will be is not real yet and is indeterminate.

I think that this solution rubs people the wrong way due to how they want to define God - but it poses me no issues.
 
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zelosravioli

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Predetermined / Foreknowledge could mean 'either':
'causing' something in the future to happen - or 'seeing' that something in the future will happen.

One reason I believe in Open Theism; is that even if you interpret some verses to say;
God see's the future
I would hope that your view would also agree that;
God has also 'caused' the events that make the future

Otherwise the 'non-Open Theist' would be saying;
God sees the future without making it happen
(like a time traveler who sees the future, yet didn't have any cause it bringing the events about)

So if being an Open Theist means that; 'God causes and brings events to past in order to fulfill His will and goal' - then arguing against open theism may as well be arguing that; God 'doesn't' cause and bring things to past.

Both positions should reasonably agree that; God 'causes' things to happen
(God does not simply see the the future, but intervenes 'at some point' to bring these events about).
--------

Another reason I believe in Open Theism; is that if the future happened then it is no longer future. If someone in the future chooses Christ, or picks up a rock, then that person is in the 'now' (or at least in their now) - thus 'future' becomes meaningless gibberish.

I feel its easy enough to understand that God can and will 'cause' and 'bring' things to past - our freewill does not thwart, nor could creation cause His ultimate plans to change.
 
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hedrick

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But for your question - yeah - that’s pretty much what I think. If God has absolute and perfect foreknowledge of your actions - then your actions are not free. Rather you are simply following/cruising down your pre-ordained path.

..,and that’s not “free”

Because I don’t like the implications of that - and all things considered find that hard to reconcile with the idea of a Just and Good God - my method of resolving the problem is to say that God does not have that foreknowledge. God knows perfectly what has been and what is - but what will be is not real yet and is indeterminate.

I think that this solution rubs people the wrong way due to how they want to define God - but it poses me no issues.
It seems that many Arminians agree with you. However from what I can tell, classically, Arminians commonly held a kind of compatibilism, that exhaustive foreknowledge can coexist with free and responsible choice. I gave the argument above.

Compatibilism is normally associated with Calvinism, where it is used to defend the idea that God's predestination can coexist with freedom and responsibility. Indeed the argument I gave was based on Johnathan Edwards. But really, I think it's needed even for Arminianism if you accept exhaustive foreknowledge.

My guess is that at the popular level many people are effectively open theists even though they might not recognize that or even deny it. Because most people don't seem to accept the argument for compatibilism.
 
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hedrick

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Incidentally, the argument that God couldn't foresee who is going to be saved and damned until he decided to create seems to me to have problem. The intent is to save God from ethical responsibility for damnation of individuals. But it only works if God is a deist: if he doesn't interact with the world after he creates it. But in the usual picture God has had lots of interactions with humans. Those are a significant influence on human behavior. If you assume exhaustive foreknowledge, even Molinist, then God could still save someone by changing how he interacts with the world. E.g. God decided to choose Israel. This decreases the chances of people in other nations to be saved.

I don't think you can really absolve God of responsibility for damnation of individuals other than through universalism. Hence ultimately the only two choices may be Calvinism and universalism.
 
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redleghunter

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You’re getting back to “made you do” stuff.

I’m not saying God compels or makes anyone do anything. Im saying that choice and absolute accurate foreknowledge are incompatible.
Your argument is convincing if God is beholden to His creation. But He is not.
 
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redleghunter

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The drone is simply observing you do something after the fact - after the choice was made
I’m still not seeing why an omniscient God somehow coerces your choices.

Now of course our choices do reflect the bondage of our wills.
 
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redleghunter

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He foreknew ALL events AND people isn't what Acts 2:23 says. You're attempting to add to Scripture to make your worldview coherent.
Actually words have meaning and you are trying to redefine words.

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29(Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267/proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand

Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choicesand doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand
Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel

Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12(seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. beforecreation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))
 
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redleghunter

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If the perfect foreknowledge that you will do action A is true, then when the event occurs, you must do A. True?

And if not - and B could happen — how can the foreknowledge be perfect?
I think you are confusing Foreknowledge with Predestined: (I’ll throw in “Will and Purpose too”)

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29(Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267/proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand

Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choicesand doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand
Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel

Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12(seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain
Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. beforecreation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))
 
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redleghunter

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lol isn’t free will predicated on the idea that more than one option is legitimately available to be chosen from?
What type of free will? All of our available “options” are based on human fallen state.
 
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DZoolander

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What type of free will? All of our available “options” are based on human fallen state.
Well I’ve given my interpretation of what I think “free will” means and necessitates.

What do you believe the term to mean? What is meant when it’s said that God gave man free will? In practice what does that boil down to?
 
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zelosravioli

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I think you are confusing Foreknowledge with Predestined: (I’ll throw in “Will and Purpose too”)

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29(Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267/proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand

Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choicesand doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand

Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel

Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12(seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain

Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. beforecreation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))
Nothing in these definitions states God 'see's or 'knows' the 'future' as you seem to suggest.
Open Theism means God can or will 'cause' these things to happen.
(Nothing needs to have 'happened' back in time or be seen to have 'happened already in the future', in order for God to cause something to happen - it makes sense that God causes things to happen in the 'now')

I am determined that we go to the store. Predestined
I know we are going to the store. Foreknowledge
This just as easily means the above also.

Neither of these word definitions are different than our own English understanding of these words. Note that prognósis: foreknowledge = "A prognosis is a prediction about the course of a disease. Prognosis comes from the Greek pro- "before" and gnosis "knowledge." It means to know beforehand, but keep in mind that it is only a probable outcome and not a sure thing. Lung cancer is an example where the "prognosis" of the disease may not be very accurate"

 
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Tetra

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Actually words have meaning and you are trying to redefine words.

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29(Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267/proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand

Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choicesand doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand

Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel

Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12(seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain

Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. beforecreation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))
Yes, the Scripture does use those words.
 
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DZoolander

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I think you are confusing Foreknowledge with Predestined: (I’ll throw in “Will and Purpose too”)

The text actually says foreknowledge and Predetermined. And words truly having meanings which can't be massaged into meaning what we want them to mean.

Predetermined:
horizó: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Original Word: ὁρίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: horizó
Phonetic Spelling: (hor-id'-zo)
Definition: to mark off by boundaries, to determine
Usage: I separate, mark off by boundaries; I determine, appoint, designate.



3724 horízō (from horos, "boundary, limit") – properly, to set boundaries (limits) – literally, "determine horizons" (boundaries).

3724 /horízō ("designate limits, boundaries") refers to the Lord (literally) "horizoning" all the physical scenes of life before creation. This guarantees God works each in conjunction with His eternal purpose (providence, see 4286 /próthesis).

[The English term "horizon" ("horizoning") comes from 3724(horízō), "to set limits." 4309/proorízō ("pre-horizon, pre-determine") emphasizes God's eternality with its correlations, as operating in His perfect wisdom, absolute foreknowledge, etc.).]

2. to determine, appoint: with an accusative of the thing, ἡμέραν, Hebrews 4:7; καιρούς, Acts 17:26(numerous examples from Greek authors are given in Bleek, Hebrew-Br. 2:1, p. 538f); passive ὡρισμένος, 'determinate,' settled, Acts 2:23; τό ὡρισμένον, that which hath been determined,according to appointment, decree,Luke 22:22; with an accusative of person Acts 17:31 (ᾧ by attraction for ὅν (Winers Grammar, § 24, 1; Buttmann, § 143, 8)); passive with a predicate nominative, Romans 1:4 (for although Christ was the Son of God before his resurrection, yet he was openly appointed (A. V.declared) such among men by this transcendent and crowning event); ὁρίζω, to ordain, determine, appoint, Acts 10:42; followed by an infinitive Acts 11:29(Sophoclesfrom 19 d. (i. e. Aegeus (539), viii., p. 8, Brunck edition)). (Compare: ἀφορίζω, ἀποδιορίζω, πρωρίζω.)


Foreknowledge:
prognósis: foreknowledge
Original Word: πρόγνωσις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: prognósis
Phonetic Spelling: (prog'-no-sis)
Definition: foreknowledge
Usage: foreknowledge, previous determination.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 4268 prógnōsis (from 4267/proginṓskō, "foreknow") – properly, foreknowledge. 4268(prógnōsis) occurs twice in the NT, both times of "God's absolute foreknowledge." See 4267(proginōskō).

2. forethought, prearrangement(see προβλέπω): 1 Peter 1:2; Acts 2:23

Strongs 4267
proginóskó: to know beforehand

Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.
HELPS Word-studies
4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choicesand doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them" (G. Archer).

Acts 4:28: to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur.
Your Hand
cheir: the hand

Original Word: χείρ, χειρός, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: cheir
Phonetic Spelling: (khire)
Definition: the hand
Usage: a hand.

5495 xeír – properly, hand; (figuratively) the instrument a person uses to accomplish their purpose (intention, plan).

ἐμπεσεῖν εἰς χεῖρας Θεοῦ ζῶντος, Hebrews 10:31. δ. in determining and controlling the destinies of men: Acts 4:28; ταπεινοῦσθαι ὑπότήν κραταιάν χεῖρα τοῦ Θεοῦ, 1 Peter 5:6.

Purpose
boulé: counsel

Original Word: βουλή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: boulé
Phonetic Spelling: (boo-lay')
Definition: counsel
Usage: counsel, deliberate wisdom, decree.

1012 boulḗ – properly, a resolved plan, used particularly of the immutable aspect of God's plan – purposefully arranging all physical circumstances, which guarantees every scene of life works to His eternal purpose.

This level of God's plan (1012/boulḗ) demonstrates He is the Lord of history, i.e. always in charge!

[1012 (boulḗ) is more than God's immutable plan of physical circumstances. It always also includes the Lord's purpose in them – and hence arranging all the physical scenes of history before creation (Ps 139:16; Jn 1:3).]

βουλή, βουλῆς, ἡ (βούλομαι), from Homer down; often in the Sept. for עֵצָה; counsel, purpose: Luke 23:51(where distinguished from ἡπρᾶξις); Acts 5:38; Acts 27:12(seeτίθημι, 1 a.), 42; plural 1 Corinthians 4:5; ἡ βουλή τοῦ Θεοῦ, Acts 13:36; especially of the purpose of God respecting the salvation of men through Christ: Luke 7:30; Acts 2:23; Acts 4:28; (Hebrews 6:17); πᾶσαν τήνβουλήν τοῦ Θεοῦ all the contents of the divine plan, Acts 20:27; ἡβουλή τοῦ θελήματος αὐτοῦ the counsel of his will, Ephesians 1:11.

Predestined
proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain

Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

4309 proorízō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 3724 /horízō, "establish boundaries, limits") – properly, pre-horizon, pre-determine limits (boundaries) predestine.

[4309 (proorízō) occurs six times in the NT (eight in the writings of Paul). Since the root (3724 /horízō) already means "establish boundaries," the added prefix (pro, "before") makes 4309 (proorízō) "to pre-establish boundaries," i.e. beforecreation.]

προορίζω: 1 aorist προορισα; 1 aorist passive participle προορισθεντες; to predetermine, decide beforehand, Vulg. (except in Acts)praedestino (R. V. to foreordain): in the N. T. of God decreeing from eternity, followed by an accusative with the infinitive Acts 4:28; τί, with the addition of πρό τῶν αἰώνων 1 Corinthians 2:7; τινα, with a predicate acc, to foreordain, appoint beforehand,Romans 8:29f; τινα εἰς τί, one to obtain a thing. Ephesians 1:5; προορισθεντες namely, κληρωθῆναι, Ephesians 1:11. (Heliodorus and ecclesiastical writings. (Ignatius ad Eph. tit.))

I've pretty much exclusively used the term "foreknowledge" within this thread, because that's what I'm interested in for this discussion. I've stayed away from using anything along the lines of "predestined"/"predestination"/etc - because that carries other baggage into the discussion that I'm not interested in delving into now. :)
 
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redleghunter

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Yeah, if we're defining free will as something different than "the freedom to truly choose from a variety of options" - then that's a different discussion. But within the confines of what I'm talking about - that's what I'm assuming we're meaning. "Free will = the ability to truly choose between different options. When presented with options A and B, it legitimately could be A or could be B."

That's what I was always taught "free will" to mean. Man legitimately COULD do the right thing, but he by his own volition chooses the sinful thing in the moment.
Have you considered that before one is converted by God’s Grace they are a child under wrath and they freely choose according to that fallen state?
 
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redleghunter

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13 explains what is meant by 11. After listening and believing, then we were sealed in him and made part of the promise. There's no problem with the definitions of predetermined. What is determined is God's plan in Christ. We become "sharers in the promise of Christ *through the Gospel," not through God's bare predestination.
I already pointed out that the choosing is individuals in Christ before the foundations of the earth. That means He knows who we are. Not a nebulous corporate election which the text does not support. As in I knew you before you were in your mother’s womb.

The text does not support the nebulous nature of your theory.
 
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redleghunter

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Of course God is always in charge. Open theism doesn't dispute that. It disputes that God has detailed control, not that he has sufficient power to make things happen, and to bring his salvation finally to the world. Acts 4:28 is referring specifically to that, to God's plan to use Christ to save us.

"27 For in this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place."

The point here is that Jesus was anointed to carry out God's plan. Pretty clearly it's God's plan to save us. What "your plan had predestined to take place" in this context is talking about that specific plan. It's not an abstract statement that everything that happens is predestined.
More than Jesus is mentioned here and once again you did not address the actual meaning of the words used. I laid out the actual meanings and contextual usage. It means God not only planned but knew what would happen. The words Foreknowledge and Predestined used in this context give absolutely no wiggle room for “maybe He knew.” God knew.
Again, you aren't objecting specifically to open theism. You're giving a Calvinist reading of this passage.
No I’m actually looking at the meaning of the words. Not trying to cast doubt on them to support a pet theology.

Do you have any objections to open theism that aren't also objections to Arminianism?
John Wesley would put a pox on open theism. Why? It’s un-Biblical.
 
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redleghunter

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Do you have any objections to open theism that aren't also objections to Arminianism?
I think most classical Arminians have issues with open theism. Arminians the classical types like Wesley believed God Predestined those who through His Foreknowledge received Christ. I’m not a big fan of this view obviously but at least Wesleyanism and Arminianism confirm a omniscient God can see the future and what decisions people make.
 
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redleghunter

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Another reason I believe in Open Theism; is that if the future happened then it is no longer future. If someone in the future chooses Christ, or picks up a rock, then that person is in the 'now' (or at least in their now) - thus 'future' becomes meaningless gibberish.
Perhaps for limited material beings who were created.

The uncreated Creator is not limited by His created works.

Open theism is a materialist construct to bring God down to our fallen level of thinking.

Next people will start some crazy theories like Christ did not rise from the dead bodily.
 
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