Open Theism

hedrick

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God is eternal, and has eternal divine attributes, so Him knowing all things would be very consistent with his nature!
The usual definition of eternal is having no beginning or end. God can be eternal but still not have perfect knowledge of things that haven't happened yet.
 
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Hieronymus

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The usual definition of eternal is having no beginning or end. God can be eternal but still not have perfect knowledge of things that haven't happened yet.
Maybe he future is a huge collection of possible outcomes.
 
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hedrick

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For God to be really God, He has to be all knowing, for if He ever has to learn anything new, then he ceases to be God!
Why? If something hasn't happened yet, there's nothing to know. There's nothing wrong with God learning something in this sense.
 
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Tetra

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For God to be really God, He has to be all knowing, for if He ever has to learn anything new, then he ceases to be God!
The claim God is all knowing isn't antithetical to the claim He doesn't know the future. These aren't mutually exclusive.
 
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Tetra

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This is bringing back so many memories of debates when I was younger! :D

One common argument I remember was that people would say it's impossible for God to not know the future since in the Bible we see the fulfillment of prophecy.

To which I'd claim, no that isn't God's foreknowledge, rather, when the time comes, God simply fulfills the prophecy. Similar to, if I say "tomorrow I'll eat breakfast", and then when tomorrow comes I eat breakfast, it's not because I had foreknowledge. I simply fulfilled what I said I was going to do.
 
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Tetra

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It's generally not a good idea to learn about something from an opponent. A better source would be

https://www.amazon.com/Openness-God...F8&qid=1545510452&sr=1-8&keywords=open+theism

Note that this book distinguishes between open theism and process theology. Not everyone is clear on this. Some arguments against open theism really only apply to process theology. The difference is that in open theism God knows and can do anything that it is logically possible to know and do. He creates and is responsible for the world. In process theology God's activity is not so determinative. He acts in what one might call a persuasive manner.
Read this book back in the 90's, it's excellent!
 
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redleghunter

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I was just reading the Statement of Faith and under Unorthodox Christian Theology I read
"Open Theism" or maybe open theology.

Could anyone here tell me what it is and is there scripture for this?
The theory denies the immutability of God.

Immutability of God
Consider what thou owest to his immutability. Though thou hast changed a thousand times, he has not changed once; though thou hast shifted thy intentions, and thy will, yet he has not once swerved from his eternal purpose, but still has held thee fast. - Charles Spurgeon [1] The immutability of God means that God is unchanging. More specifically, "God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises. Louis Berkhof's systematic theology text (a Reformed classic) defines God's immutability as 'that perfection of God by which He does not change in His being, perfections, purposes, or promises.' The Westminster Shorter Catechism says, 'God is a spirit, whose being, wisdom power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth are infinite, eternal, and unchangeable." Those things do not change. A number of Scriptures attest to this idea (e.g. Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Ps. 102:26; Mal. 3:6; 2 Tim. 2:13; Heb. 6:17-18; Jam. 1:17)." [2]

https://www.theopedia.com/immutability-of-god

Theopedia
Open theism

Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen.

"Our rejection of divine timelessness and our affirmation of dynamic omniscience are the most controversial elements in our proposal and the view of foreknowledge receives the most attention. However the watershed issue in the debate is not whether God has exhaustive definite foreknowledge (EDF) but whether God is ever affected by and responds to what we do. This is the same watershed that divides Calvinism from Arminianism"^[1]^

Open Theists argue that people are created to be in meaningful relationships with God and others and as moral beings must have the ability to make real, responsible choices in their lives. Open Theists argue that this cannot be accomplished as long as God exercises exhaustive control of the universe or predetermines the future because this would remove humanity's free will. The counter point to this is that critics of Open Theism say that if God is not exercising meticulous control of the universe, or does not exhaustively know the future, then this would imply that He is not in control and we are not able to completely trust in God's sovereignty. Furthermore, the question remains, will God actually be able to triumph over evil? Open Theists answer these critiques by noting that while God does not exercise meticulous control, he is "ultimately" in control.

https://www.theopedia.com/open-theism


John Wesley and Arminius would condemn Open theism. In their day it would have been coined Deism.
 
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hedrick

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The theory denies the immutability of God.
In some sense. It doesn't claim that his character changes or his commitments to humanity, Israel, etc, change. Those are what the Bible means when it says God doesn't change.

Claiming that it's a violation of God's nature for him to come to know new things as new things happen requires a view of immutability that's more neo-Platonic than Biblical. It's like the Gnostics, who thought God couldn't be involved in the world because it meant change.
 
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Tetra

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The theory denies the immutability of God.

Immutability of God
Consider what thou owest to his immutability. Though thou hast changed a thousand times, he has not changed once; though thou hast shifted thy intentions, and thy will, yet he has not once swerved from his eternal purpose, but still has held thee fast. - Charles Spurgeon [1] The immutability of God means that God is unchanging. More specifically, "God is unchanging in his character, will, and covenant promises. Louis Berkhof's systematic theology text (a Reformed classic) defines God's immutability as 'that perfection of God by which He does not change in His being, perfections, purposes, or promises.' The Westminster Shorter Catechism says, 'God is a spirit, whose being, wisdom power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth are infinite, eternal, and unchangeable." Those things do not change. A number of Scriptures attest to this idea (e.g. Num. 23:19; 1 Sam. 15:29; Ps. 102:26; Mal. 3:6; 2 Tim. 2:13; Heb. 6:17-18; Jam. 1:17)." [2]

https://www.theopedia.com/immutability-of-god

Theopedia
Open theism

Open theism, also called free will theism and openness theology, is the belief that God does not exercise meticulous control of the universe but leaves it "open" for humans to make significant choices (free will) that impact their relationships with God and others. A corollary of this is that God has not predetermined the future. Open Theists further believe that this would imply that God does not know the future exhaustively. Proponents affirm that God is omniscient, but deny that this means that God knows everything that will happen.

"Our rejection of divine timelessness and our affirmation of dynamic omniscience are the most controversial elements in our proposal and the view of foreknowledge receives the most attention. However the watershed issue in the debate is not whether God has exhaustive definite foreknowledge (EDF) but whether God is ever affected by and responds to what we do. This is the same watershed that divides Calvinism from Arminianism"^[1]^

Open Theists argue that people are created to be in meaningful relationships with God and others and as moral beings must have the ability to make real, responsible choices in their lives. Open Theists argue that this cannot be accomplished as long as God exercises exhaustive control of the universe or predetermines the future because this would remove humanity's free will. The counter point to this is that critics of Open Theism say that if God is not exercising meticulous control of the universe, or does not exhaustively know the future, then this would imply that He is not in control and we are not able to completely trust in God's sovereignty. Furthermore, the question remains, will God actually be able to triumph over evil? Open Theists answer these critiques by noting that while God does not exercise meticulous control, he is "ultimately" in control.

https://www.theopedia.com/open-theism


John Wesley and Arminius would condemn Open theism. In their day it would have been coined Deism.
No, open theists do not claim God changes.
 
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redleghunter

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Interesting. This would answer the problem with prayer. Why do we pray? Does it really change anything? Did God foreknow we were going to pray and thus knew the outcome?

If God only knows what's happening at the moment, it would make more sense that when we pray we may get a YES to that prayer....

Thanks.
Good questions. Probably why Jesus gave an excellent prayer:

Matthew 6: KJV
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
 
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DZoolander

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It's the belief that not all things are predetermined and that the future can be changed. It's controversial because many of its adherents claim that God does not know the future. But like anything else, no one has an absolute definition for it.

Yeah, like the other day I was involved in a discussion on here and was told that my point of view was espousing open theism.

The discussion was about free will, and how that can be reconciled with a God that knows the future with 100% certainty? My position was that you can't have both. If free will is real, you truly can choose between options A or B. If both options are possible, then the future must be indeterminate.

However, if you have an omniscient God that knows with 100% certainty what you will do ahead of time (in fact before you're born) - then you truly do not have choice. If God has foreknowledge that you WILL choose B beforehand, then A was truly never an option. Sure, you may be aware of other choices, but what you will choose is predetermined...and that certainly is not free will.

My position was that those two ideas are conflicting. If one is true, then the other cannot be.

I then said that personally, I believe in the idea of free will. If that means that there is a boundary to God's knowledge, I'm perfectly happy accepting that.

It was that position I was told was "open theism" :)
 
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hedrick

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If God responds to us then there must be some wiggle room to change.
These issues are actually too complex to answer here. There are models that preserve both immutability and responsiveness. Whether you find them credible is another question. See https://www.iep.utm.edu/div-immu/ for a good exploration of the various possible ways to handle questions like this. The simplest answer is that God always knew you were going to make a request or whatever. That has its own complexities, which you should see the article for. My personal feeling is that as we go beyond constancy in character and in his commitments we move more and more away from the Biblical God to a god of the philosophers. But many disagree.
 
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redleghunter

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However Scripture seems pretty clearly to imply open theism.

Open theism is not Biblical.

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Psalm 139: NASB
1O LORD, You have searched me and known me.

2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.

3You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.

4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

5You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,

10Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.



Acts 2: NASB
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Shall we move on to the next modern heresy?
 
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Tetra

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Open theism is not Biblical.

Ephesians 1: NASB
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; 8Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; 9Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: 10That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. 13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

Psalm 139: NASB
1O LORD, You have searched me and known me.

2You know when I sit down and when I rise up;
You understand my thought from afar.

3You scrutinize my path and my lying down,
And are intimately acquainted with all my ways.

4Even before there is a word on my tongue,
Behold, O LORD, You know it all.

5You have enclosed me behind and before,
And laid Your hand upon me.

6Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
It is too high, I cannot attain to it.

7Where can I go from Your Spirit?
Or where can I flee from Your presence?

8If I ascend to heaven, You are there;
If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.

9If I take the wings of the dawn,
If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,

10Even there Your hand will lead me,
And Your right hand will lay hold of me.



Acts 2: NASB
22“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through Him in your midst, just as you yourselves know— 23this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death. 24“But God raised Him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for Him to be held in its power.

Shall we move on to the next modern heresy?
As I said earlier, prophecy (predeterminism) doesn't imply foreknowledge, it's irrelevant.
 
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hedrick

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Open theism is not Biblical.

Ephesians 1: NASB
You don't give an exegesis, but most likely you're trying to prove Calvinism. So this isn't specific to the question of open theism. The typical response is that choosing us in Christ did not mean having a list from eternity of people God wanted to save and damn.

Psalm 139: NASB
This is a moderately odd citation, since it only says that God knows us (and from context, it's specifically his followers) well.

Acts 2: NASB
This claims that God planned from the beginning to send Christ. This doesn't require detailed knowledge of the future, only knowledge of how God himself intended to deal with us. Indeed it doesn't really say that this plan was from eternity.
 
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hedrick

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As I said earlier, prophecy (predeterminism) doesn't imply foreknowledge, it's irrelevant.
Prophecy is more about telling the people God's intention than predicting the future.

Some says that God is in the process of bringing in something to punish Israel. That's God's intention for the near future.

Some talks about what God intends to bring about in the end.

Open theism certainly assumes that God is capable of bringing about his goals. However how he does it specifically depends upon what happens.
 
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