GingerBeer

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for the same reason that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 is not 490 days but rather 490 years.
Why is it 490 years rather than 70 weeks? Your system of interpretation really has a lot of loaded terms and conflated ideas rolled up into "seventy weeks".
 
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GingerBeer

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They munge up a number of details - but they are still sticking with 3.5 years as the apocalyptic time given.

As I said - that is the easy part. It is hard to find a scholar that does not get that point.

Just as it is hard to find actual Bible scholars that mess up the Daniel 9 seventy weeks to the point that it is not 490 days -- expanded out to 490 years.
They, being Cambridge University Bible Commentary writers, disagree with you. Are there more Anglican scholars in the world than there are Seventh Day Adventist ones?
 
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GingerBeer

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Look at my quotes - I am not quoting Adventist scholars.
But you do say "all scholars" a lot and that makes it look as if you depend on majority opinion as your justification for the theories you're presenting. Majority opinions are not proof. Try finding proof for your claims in what the passages say.
 
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BobRyan

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But you do say "all scholars" a lot and that makes it look as if you depend on majority opinion as your justification for the theories you're presenting. Majority opinions are not proof. Try finding proof for your claims in what the passages say.

1. Notice the OP -- it is all Bible.

2. I point out "other scholars" because people often resort to "well how many more scholars do Adventists have ... " -- as if the details here "are Adventist" and so hidden that only Adventists would know them.

But I show that some of these details are so easy and obvious that not only are they in the Bible just as I show them - but people on all sides admit to seeing those same Bible details.
 
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BobRyan

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It isn't "all the bible scholars who look at Daniel 9" just some of them.

By "some" you apparently mean "nearly all" ... even you have not found a single one claiming that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are only 490 days as if Daniel was living 490 days away from the baptism of Christ.

the text literally says that of the 70 weeks it is 69 weeks "until Messiah the prince". That is a big clue as to why all the Bible scholars "get it".
 
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GingerBeer

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1. Notice the OP -- it is all Bible.
The original post bible quotes are "bible" but the comments are not and nor is the interpretative scheme.
2. I point out "other scholars" because people often resort to "well how many more scholars do Adventists have ... " -- as if the details here "are Adventist" and so hidden that only Adventists would know them.
I know only a little about Seventh Day Adventists so I am not likely to waste time complaining about them or their scholars. My concern is what does the passage really say and what does it teach (if anything). Your concern appears to be to promote a particular theory of "end times" and if that is a SDA theory that is okay for SDA people. I am not SDA so I am not likely to leap blindly into the interpretive system that SDAs promote.
But I show that some of these details are so easy and obvious that not only are they in the Bible just as I show them - but people on all sides admit to seeing those same Bible details.
Converting "Time and times and the dividing of times" from the KJV into 3.5 years is not as easy as you claim. It may mean a year and years and half a year and that could be construed to be three and a half years but that is a very shaky foundation for a system of beliefs.
 
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BobRyan

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The original post bible quotes are "bible" but the comments are not

The comments point to "details" in the texts.

At this point you have offered no other "detail" in the text to counter it. Only your preference "as if" noticing the obvious Bible detail as specifically "Adventist" at which point I show that the obvious details I was highlighting were not even remotely limited to "only Adventists notice that Bible detail".

My concern is what does the passage really say and what does it teach and pointing to details that are so obvious that Bible scholars on many sides of the discussion all admit to them... we call that "objective" rather than merely "subjective".

I am not SDA so I am not likely to leap blindly into the interpretive system that SDAs promote.

Hence the "detail" that I quote no SDA sources or scholars or commentaries.

Just because we differ in "opinion" does not mean all of those differences are truly because SDAs differ with non-SDAs.

Converting "Time and times and the dividing of times" from the KJV into 3.5 years is not as easy as you claim.

But it is generally accepted among Bible scholars just as I claim and I could list reams and reams of them.. none of which would be SDA - just for the sake of objectivity on my part.

you keep insisting that all the Bible scholars on planet earth are on shaky ground when they claim that Rev 12:7,14 proves that "times time and half a time" are in fact 3.5 years ... because it says the time is 1260 days -- in that apocalyptic text. And you provide no evidence at all that there is any kind of general agreement that Daniel 7 and Rev 12 are NOT apocalyptic texts or that they do not point to the same time units.

But you point to no detail to prove your sweeping assertion. You have free will of course and can start your own little group for that idea and I wish you well in that endeavor. Please let us know how that works out for you.

I myself try not to get stuck on the easy part that every one already agrees to.

In your response you seem to have "wished" that you had landed on some detail that is unique to SDAs and that this is where you would draw the line and "differ no matter what" -- but instead you land on details that every scholar in the world already agrees to -- as if this is somehow a unique statement of SDAs where you are free to just "say no to whatever they say". That is not the best solution.
 
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GingerBeer

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By "some" you apparently mean "nearly all"
I mean some, and probably less than 50%. I say that because Orthodox and Catholic as well as Protestant Main Line scholars would very likely disagree. They would constitute well over 50% of bible scholars.
... even you have not found a single one claiming that the 70 weeks of Daniel 9 are only 490 days as if Daniel was living 490 days away from the baptism of Christ.
John Calvin's commentary on Daniel does not support the theory you put forward. It does not make the seventy weeks into four hundred and ninety years. Concerning Daniel 9:24 he writes:
This passage has been variously treated, and so distracted, and almost torn to pieces by the various opinions of interpreters, that it might be considered nearly useless on account of its obscurity. But, in the assurance that no prediction is really in vain, we may hope to understand this prophecy, provided only we are attentive and teachable according to the angel's admonition, and the Prophet's example. I do not usually refer to conflicting opinions, because I take no pleasure in refuting them, and the simple method which I adopt pleases me best, namely, to expound what I think delivered by the Spirit of God. But I cannot escape the necessity of confuting' various views of the present passage.
I will begin with the Jews, because they not only pervert its sense through ignorance, but through shameful impudence. Whenever they're exposed to the light which shines from Christ, they instantly turn their backs in utter shamelessness, and display a complete want of ingenuousness. They are like dogs who are satisfied with barking. In this passage especially, they betray their petulance, because with brazen forehead they elude the Prophet's meaning. Let us observe, then, what they think, for we should condemn them to little purpose, unless we can convict them by reasons equally firm and certain. When Jerome relates the teaching of the Jews who lived before his own day, he attributes to them greater modesty and discretion then their later descendants have displayed. He reports their confession, that this passage cannot be understood otherwise than of the advent of Messiah, that perhaps Jerome was unwilling to meet them in open conflict, as he was not fully persuaded of its necessity, and therefore he assumed more than they had allowed. I think this very probable, for he does not let fall a single word as to what interpretation he approves, and excuses himself for bringing forward all kinds of opinions without any prejudice on his part. Hence, he dares not pronounce whether or not the Jewish interpreters are more correct than either the Greek or the Latin, but leaves his readers entirely in suspense. Besides, it is very clear that all the Rabbis expounded this prophecy of Daniel's, of that continual punishment which God was about to inflict upon his people after their return from captivity. Thus, they entirely exclude the grace of God, and blame the Prophet, as if he had committed an error in thinking that God would be propitious to these miserable exiles, by restoring them to their homes and by rebuilding their Temple. According to their view, the seventy weeks began at the destruction of the former Temple, and closed at the overthrow of the second. In one point they agree with us, -- in considering the Prophet to reckon the weeks not by days but by years, as in Leviticus. (Leviticus 25:8.) There is no difference between us and the Jews in numbering the years; they confess the number of years to be 490, but disagree with us entirely as to the close of the prophecy. They say -- as I have already hinted -- the continual calamities which oppressed the people are here predicted. The Prophet hoped the end of their troubles was fast approaching, as God had testified by Jeremiah his perfect satisfaction with the seventy years of captivity. They say also -- the people were miserably harassed by their enemies again overthrowing their second Temple; thus they were deprived of their homes, and the ruined city became a sorrowful spectacle of devastation and disaster. In this way, I showed how they excluded the grace of God; and to sum up their teaching shortly, this is its substance, -- the Prophet is deceived in thinking the state of the Church would improve at the close of the seventy years, because seventy weeks still remained; that is, God multiplied the number in this way, for the purpose of chastising them, until at length he would abolish the city and the Temple, disperse their nation over the whole earth and destroy their very name, until at length the Messiah whom they expected should arrive.​
This is their interpretation, but all history refutes both their ignorance and their rashness. For, as we shall afterwards observe, all who are endued with correct judgement will scarcely approve of this, because all historians relate the lapse of a longer period between the monarchy of Cyrus, and the Persians, and the coming of Christ, than Daniel here computes.


The Jews again include the years which occurred from the ruin of the former Temple to the advent of Christ, and the final overthrow of their city. Hence, according to the commonly received opinion, they heap together about six hundred years. I shall afterwards state how far I approve of this computation, and how far I differ from it. Clearly enough, however, the Jews are both shamefully deceived and deceive others, when they thus heap together different periods without any judgement.
Calvin has no time for what he sees as Jewish interpretations. What he himself believes is expressed later. He writes (still about Daniel 9:24)
We now understand why the angel does not use the reckoning' of years, or months, or days, but weeks of years, because this has a tacit reference to the penalty which the people had endured according to the prophecy of Jeremiah. On the other hand, this displays God's great loving kindness, since he manifests a regard for his people up to the period of his setting forth their promised salvation in his Christ. Seventy weeks, then, says he, were finished upon thy people, and upon thy holy city I do not approve of the view of Jerome, who thinks this an allusion to the rejection of the people; as if he had said, the people is thine and not mine. I feel sure this is utterly contrary to the Prophet's intention. He asserts the people and city to be here called Daniel's, because God had divorced his people and rejected his city. But, as I said before, God wished to bring some consolation to his servant and all the pious, and to prop them up by this confidence during their oppression by their enemies. For God had already fixed the time of sending the Redeemer. The people and the city are said to belong to Daniel, because, as we saw before, the Prophet was anxious for the common safety of His nation, and the restoration of the city and Temple. Lastly, the angel confirms his previous expression -- God listened to his servant's prayer, and promulgated the prophecy of future redemption. The clause which follows convicts the Jews of purposely corrupting Daniel's words and meaning, because the angel says, the time was finished for putting an end to wickedness, and for sealing up sins, and for expiating iniquity We gather from this clause, God's compassionate feelings for His people after these seventy weeks were over. For what purpose did God determine that time? Surely to prohibit sin, to close up wickedness, and to expiate iniquity. We observe no continuance of punishment here, as the Jews vainly imagine; for they suppose God always hostile to his people, and they recognize a sign of most grievous offense in the utter destruction of the Temple. The Prophet, or rather the angel, gives us quite the opposite view of the case, by explaining how God wished to finish and close up their sin, and to expiate their iniquity He afterwards adds, to bring in everlasting righteousness We first perceive how joyful a message is brought forward concerning the reconciliation of the people with God; and next, something promised far better and more excellent than anything which had been granted under the law, and even under the flourishing times of the Jews under David and Solomon. The angel here encourages the faithful to expect something better than what their fathers, whom God had adopted, had experienced. There is a kind of contrast between the expiation's under the law and this which the angel announces, and also between the pardon here promised and that which God had always given to his ancient people; and there is also the same contrast between the eternal righteousness and that which flourished under the law.

He next adds, To seal up the vision and the prophecy Here the word "to seal" may be taken in two senses. Either the advent of Christ should sanction whatever had been formerly predicted -- and the metaphor will imply this well enough -- or we may take it otherwise, namely:, the vision shall be sealed up, and so finally closed that all prophecies should cease. Barbinel thinks he points out a great absurdity here, by stating it to be by no means in accordance with God's character, to deprive his Church of the remarkable blessing of prophecy. But that blind man does not comprehend the force of the prophecy, because he does not understand anything about Christ. We know the law to be distinguished from the gospel by this peculiarity,-they formerly had a long course of prophecy according to the language of the Apostle. (Hebrews 1:1.) God spake formerly in various ways by prophets, but in these last times by his only-begotten Son. Again, the law and the prophets existed until John, says Christ. (Matthew 11:11-13; Luke 16:16; Luke 7:28.) Barbinel does not perceive this difference, and as I have formerly said, he thinks he has discovered an argument against us, by asserting that the gift of prophecy ought not to be taken away. And, truly, we ought not to be deprived of this gift, unless God desired to increase the privilege of the new people, because the least in the kingdom of heaven is superior in privilege to all the prophets, as Christ elsewhere pronounces. He next adds, that the Holy of Holies may be anointed Here, again, we have a tacit contrast between the anointings of the law, and the last which should take place. Not only is consolation here offered to all the pious, as God was about to mitigate the punishment which he had inflicted, but because he wished to pour forth the fullness of all his pity upon the new Church. For, as I have said, the Jews cannot escape this comparison on the part of the angel between the state of the Church under the legal and the new covenants; for the latter privileges were to be far better, more excellent, and more desirable, than those existing in the ancient Church from its commencement. But the rest tomorrow.​
My apologies for the long quotes but you did want something that differed from your stated theory.
the text literally says that of the 70 weeks it is 69 weeks "until Messiah the prince". That is a big clue as to why all the Bible scholars "get it".
Well, not "Messiah the prince" but "the anointed one, the prince" which may or may not refer to Christ since "the anointed one" may refer to a king, a priest, a prophet, or some other who is anointed for some purpose.
 
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BobRyan

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Well, BobRyan you have a view with which I disagree.

indeed - I think we had that as a 'given' from the start. My interest is in "the details"

We can all meet and greet with "my opinion differs with you -- you knew that right?" But I am looking for something more substantive.
 
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Look at the text, think carefully:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

See also:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

[1] Throne put/moved into place (it was in the Holy Place before, now in the Most Holy, see Revelation 3 & 4)
[2] The Father then sits, after having moved (see Revelation 3-5)
[3] myriads of angels are involved in this event, they minister in it
[4] judgment is going on, while events are still transpiring on earth, after Pagan roman empire breaks apart into ten, after the little horn arises, and before the second Advent of Jesus and the giving of the kingdom to Him
[5] books are opened (closed before this moment)
[6] what was the purpose of opening the books but to read in them, to search in them, to investigate matters from that which is written in them
[7] whoever was found (read therein, searched and seen therein from the investigation) therein the Lamb's book of life, would be "delivered", which means they were still on earth and events were still transpiring before the second Advent (see Revelation 14:6-7)
Do you see Michael as being Jesus there?
 
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YeshuaFan

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Step one was to notice enough details in Daniel 7 to see that it was going to be before the 2nd coming and after the fall of the Pagan Roman empire... also after the 1260 years of dark ages that Daniel 7 mentions when it says "times time and half a time". Because all apocalyptic prophecy - like that of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks (490 literal years) -- uses day-for-year expansion/symbolism.

That 1260 years ended in 1798 so - the judgment would not start until sometime after 1798.

It is Daniel 8 that gives the more fine-tuned details for just when after 1798 that judgment would begin.

But in this thread - I am just interesting in getting "the basics" of the fact that Daniel 7 has these details.
1. The judgment includes the saints (just as does 2Cor 5:10 judgment)
2. The judgment is "an investigation" into the details of what is found written in the books of heaven. Just as Christ said "not everyone who says Lord lord will enter". Matthew 7
3. it is "before the Advent" of Christ - before the second coming

Thus the short hand term "pre-advent investigative judgment"

Daniel 7 forms the preface and context for Daniel 8. Daniel 8 magnifies the details already given to provide even more detail on the topic within the Daniel 7 framework.

Rev 14:6-7 reminds us that there comes a point when the message God sends to Earth looks like this "An everlasting gospel to preach to every nation..saying fear God and give glory to Him for the hour of His judgment HAS come"
Daniel refers to the time of the 70th week, right before the Second Coming of Jesus, so his dates are NOT for years, but for days, and not for the Middle Ages!
 
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YeshuaFan

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Well we start with Daniel 9 where every Bible scholar on the planet freely (a generalization) admits that

1. Dan 9 is apocalyptic text
2. Dan 9 is using day-for-year expansion
3. This 70 week, 490 year timeline works out to predict the first coming of Christ.

from 457 B.C. to A.D. 27 the baptism of Christ at 69 weeks (483 years) and the remaining 7 years including the 3 and one half year ministry of Christ at which point He is "cut off" - crucified... and the remaining 3.5 years taking us to the stoning of Stephen and the start of Paul's ministry to the gentiles.
The last week of Daniel is to happen right before the actual Second Coming itself!
 
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Dan 7:1-8 provides a time frame for it - by progressing through 4 world empires ...
Hi BobRyan,
We're given many false doctrines by the "church", which includes a "4-world-empire" assertion for Chapter 2. But verse 41 demands that the empire of Clay is a "divided kingdom", and verse 45 breaks the false Legs/Feet (4a/4b) premise by inserting the Bronze between them: Iron, Bronze, Clay, Silver, Gold = 4,3,5,2,1 = FIVE. And the last I looked we ARE in a "divided kingdom" as partitioned between Three Superpowers and a United Nations.

And so the Daniel 7 beasts represent this last empire as follows: Lion/Eagle -- U.K./U.S.; Bear -- Russia; Leopard (actually a Tiger) -- China; and Dreadful -- United Nations.


23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. ...

The Judgment completes before the second coming. Once it does complete - we have the second coming.
It's interesting that the U.N. presently has a plan for having ten kings:

Current Membership on the Security Council:
1. U.S.
2. U.K.
3. France
4. Russia
5. China​
Nominated for Membership on the Security Council*:
6. Germany -- economic power
7. Japan -- economic power
8. Brazil -- regional representative for S. America
9. Nigeria -- regional representative for Africa
10. India -- regional representative for the Near East
* “The Road To Reform: Towards A New Clarity,” U.N. Chronicle, UMI, Vol. 30, Issue 4, December 1993, pp. 45-46​

As such the U.N. One-World-Government will be destroyed when Jesus returns, and the Three Superpowers will continue for a "season and a time", until they're incorporated into Jesus' new government model:

Daniel 7:11 I looked then because of the sound of the great words which the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was slain, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire. 12 As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but their lives were prolonged for a season and a time.

Perhaps part of the confusion lies in the fact that the church defied the angel's instructions, and presented ancient history when the angel insists it's modern history:

Daniel 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

And of course additional aspects can be accounted for (i.e., why there's Iron in the Clay) which we can address, but which would make this reply excessive long to do so now.

Thanks,
DaDad
 
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Major1

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Indeed all are sinners (Rom 3:23) - all need the Gospel.

Now find some response to the actual texts given in first two posts... or keep admitting that you have nothing to offer but "rant" and diatribe pejoratives.

Consider this for a moment. The Seventh-day Adventist church is one of the fastest growing Christian denominations in the world according to Christianity Today -- you my friend might be in a position to shed some light for those new would-be Adventist "interests" -- IF you could offer them more substance than "rant alone" or than "avoid the texts that are the substance of this topic"

The more you do that - the more you convince them that maybe the SDA position really is right after all... maybe all the opposition has is hot air, desk pounding, harrumph!! and avoid-the-texts-because-they-show-the-SDA-position-to-be-correct.

Why not try a compelling response that is capable of "dealing with the details in scripture" already given here?? Think of all those people that could help.

Consider a well thought out compelling response.

This could be your moment to really excel on this topic.



Oh how true and how often we see creative writing and musing speculation rather than the pure quote of the Word of God on some topics. Amen to that!!

I merely quote Daniel 7 I offer no prophetic insight - just the text.

If you are inserting 1 John 4 to warn us to beware of Daniel 7 ... then you are out on a limb my friend. Daniel is a good Bible prophet as it turns out.

When one is at war 'with the text' then the "mere quote of the text" is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.

In responding only to the Scriptures that you post, you said...……

I merely quote Daniel 7 I offer no prophetic insight - just the text.

If you are inserting 1 John 4 to warn us to beware of Daniel 7 ... then you are out on a limb my friend. Daniel is a good Bible prophet as it turns out.

Daniel 7 is of course prophetic. Actually it is written in the Hebrew as if it had already happened, or FUTURE tense. Of course Daniel had NO IDEA what he was writing.

In the first place the word “saints” in Daniel cannot be a reference to the Church because they will be handed over to the anti Christ.

Dan. 7:25 corresponds to Rev. 13:7 where it says the anti-Christ will conquer the saints.

In Matt. 16:18 Jesus said that will never happen to the Church.

Many people mistakenly believe that words like “saints” and elect” always refer to the Church But that is not the case with Daniel at all. Actually and correctly what Daniel writes must apply to Israel and not the Church, and Tribulation believers. You figure out which group is being referenced through the context in which the word appears.

The phrase “time, times, and half a time” always refers to the Great Tribulation which is the 2nd half of Daniel’s 70th Week, not the first half, and is the time of the anti-Christ’s official reign on earth. Even so, Jesus said He would keep the Church out of both the time and place of all the end times judgments in Rev. 3:10.

Therefore, Daniel 7 has to apply primarily to ISRAEL with secondary application to Tribulation believers as well because it is also a picture of The Great White Throne Judgment.

As for 1 John 4, my dear friend was NOT posted in any connection with Daniel at all.
It was done to say that the SDA theology is not Bible theology.

I hope that you understand that the TIJ from Ellen White's statements contradict the Bible

May I also ask you if there was a 1755 earthquake, a dark day in 1780, and an 1833 meteor shower so as to fulfill Bible prophecy?

May I also ask if there is any known PROOF that Christ actually entered the Most Holy Place in 1844??????
 
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I mean some, and probably less than 50%. I say that because Orthodox and Catholic as well as Protestant Main Line scholars would very likely disagree. They would constitute well over 50% of bible scholars. John Calvin's commentary on Daniel does not support the theory you put forward. It does not make the seventy weeks into four hundred and ninety years. Concerning Daniel 9:24 he writes:
This passage has been variously treated, and so distracted, and almost torn to pieces by the various opinions of interpreters, that it might be considered nearly useless on account of its obscurity. But, in the assurance that no prediction is really in vain, we may hope to understand this prophecy, provided only we are attentive and teachable according to the angel's admonition, and the Prophet's example. I do not usually refer to conflicting opinions, because I take no pleasure in refuting them, and the simple method which I adopt pleases me best, namely, to expound what I think delivered by the Spirit of God. But I cannot escape the necessity of confuting' various views of the present passage.
I will begin with the Jews, because they not only pervert its sense through ignorance, but through shameful impudence. Whenever they're exposed to the light which shines from Christ, they instantly turn their backs in utter shamelessness, and display a complete want of ingenuousness. They are like dogs who are satisfied with barking. In this passage especially, they betray their petulance, because with brazen forehead they elude the Prophet's meaning. Let us observe, then, what they think, for we should condemn them to little purpose, unless we can convict them by reasons equally firm and certain. When Jerome relates the teaching of the Jews who lived before his own day, he attributes to them greater modesty and discretion then their later descendants have displayed. He reports their confession, that this passage cannot be understood otherwise than of the advent of Messiah, that perhaps Jerome was unwilling to meet them in open conflict, as he was not fully persuaded of its necessity, and therefore he assumed more than they had allowed. I think this very probable, for he does not let fall a single word as to what interpretation he approves, and excuses himself for bringing forward all kinds of opinions without any prejudice on his part. Hence, he dares not pronounce whether or not the Jewish interpreters are more correct than either the Greek or the Latin, but leaves his readers entirely in suspense. Besides, it is very clear that all the Rabbis expounded this prophecy of Daniel's, of that continual punishment which God was about to inflict upon his people after their return from captivity. Thus, they entirely exclude the grace of God, and blame the Prophet, as if he had committed an error in thinking that God would be propitious to these miserable exiles, by restoring them to their homes and by rebuilding their Temple. According to their view, the seventy weeks began at the destruction of the former Temple, and closed at the overthrow of the second. In one point they agree with us, -- in considering the Prophet to reckon the weeks not by days but by years, as in Leviticus. (Leviticus 25:8.) There is no difference between us and the Jews in numbering the years; they confess the number of years to be 490, but disagree with us entirely as to the close of the prophecy. They say -- as I have already hinted -- the continual calamities which oppressed the people are here predicted. The Prophet hoped the end of their troubles was fast approaching, as God had testified by Jeremiah his perfect satisfaction with the seventy years of captivity. They say also -- the people were miserably harassed by their enemies again overthrowing their second Temple; thus they were deprived of their homes, and the ruined city became a sorrowful spectacle of devastation and disaster. In this way, I showed how they excluded the grace of God; and to sum up their teaching shortly, this is its substance, -- the Prophet is deceived in thinking the state of the Church would improve at the close of the seventy years, because seventy weeks still remained; that is, God multiplied the number in this way, for the purpose of chastising them, until at length he would abolish the city and the Temple, disperse their nation over the whole earth and destroy their very name, until at length the Messiah whom they expected should arrive.​
This is their interpretation, but all history refutes both their ignorance and their rashness. For, as we shall afterwards observe, all who are endued with correct judgement will scarcely approve of this, because all historians relate the lapse of a longer period between the monarchy of Cyrus, and the Persians, and the coming of Christ, than Daniel here computes.


The Jews again include the years which occurred from the ruin of the former Temple to the advent of Christ, and the final overthrow of their city. Hence, according to the commonly received opinion, they heap together about six hundred years. I shall afterwards state how far I approve of this computation, and how far I differ from it. Clearly enough, however, the Jews are both shamefully deceived and deceive others, when they thus heap together different periods without any judgement.​
Calvin has no time for what he sees as Jewish interpretations. What he himself believes is expressed later. He writes (still about Daniel 9:24)
We now understand why the angel does not use the reckoning' of years, or months, or days, but weeks of years, because this has a tacit reference to the penalty which the people had endured according to the prophecy of Jeremiah. On the other hand, this displays God's great loving kindness, since he manifests a regard for his people up to the period of his setting forth their promised salvation in his Christ. Seventy weeks, then, says he, were finished upon thy people, and upon thy holy city I do not approve of the view of Jerome, who thinks this an allusion to the rejection of the people; as if he had said, the people is thine and not mine. I feel sure this is utterly contrary to the Prophet's intention. He asserts the people and city to be here called Daniel's, because God had divorced his people and rejected his city. But, as I said before, God wished to bring some consolation to his servant and all the pious, and to prop them up by this confidence during their oppression by their enemies. For God had already fixed the time of sending the Redeemer. The people and the city are said to belong to Daniel, because, as we saw before, the Prophet was anxious for the common safety of His nation, and the restoration of the city and Temple. Lastly, the angel confirms his previous expression -- God listened to his servant's prayer, and promulgated the prophecy of future redemption. The clause which follows convicts the Jews of purposely corrupting Daniel's words and meaning, because the angel says, the time was finished for putting an end to wickedness, and for sealing up sins, and for expiating iniquity We gather from this clause, God's compassionate feelings for His people after these seventy weeks were over. For what purpose did God determine that time? Surely to prohibit sin, to close up wickedness, and to expiate iniquity. We observe no continuance of punishment here, as the Jews vainly imagine; for they suppose God always hostile to his people, and they recognize a sign of most grievous offense in the utter destruction of the Temple. The Prophet, or rather the angel, gives us quite the opposite view of the case, by explaining how God wished to finish and close up their sin, and to expiate their iniquity He afterwards adds, to bring in everlasting righteousness We first perceive how joyful a message is brought forward concerning the reconciliation of the people with God; and next, something promised far better and more excellent than anything which had been granted under the law, and even under the flourishing times of the Jews under David and Solomon. The angel here encourages the faithful to expect something better than what their fathers, whom God had adopted, had experienced. There is a kind of contrast between the expiation's under the law and this which the angel announces, and also between the pardon here promised and that which God had always given to his ancient people; and there is also the same contrast between the eternal righteousness and that which flourished under the law.

He next adds, To seal up the vision and the prophecy Here the word "to seal" may be taken in two senses. Either the advent of Christ should sanction whatever had been formerly predicted -- and the metaphor will imply this well enough -- or we may take it otherwise, namely:, the vision shall be sealed up, and so finally closed that all prophecies should cease. Barbinel thinks he points out a great absurdity here, by stating it to be by no means in accordance with God's character, to deprive his Church of the remarkable blessing of prophecy. But that blind man does not comprehend the force of the prophecy, because he does not understand anything about Christ. We know the law to be distinguished from the gospel by this peculiarity,-they formerly had a long course of prophecy according to the language of the Apostle. (Hebrews 1:1.) God spake formerly in various ways by prophets, but in these last times by his only-begotten Son. Again, the law and the prophets existed until John, says Christ. (Matthew 11:11-13; Luke 16:16; Luke 7:28.) Barbinel does not perceive this difference, and as I have formerly said, he thinks he has discovered an argument against us, by asserting that the gift of prophecy ought not to be taken away. And, truly, we ought not to be deprived of this gift, unless God desired to increase the privilege of the new people, because the least in the kingdom of heaven is superior in privilege to all the prophets, as Christ elsewhere pronounces. He next adds, that the Holy of Holies may be anointed Here, again, we have a tacit contrast between the anointings of the law, and the last which should take place. Not only is consolation here offered to all the pious, as God was about to mitigate the punishment which he had inflicted, but because he wished to pour forth the fullness of all his pity upon the new Church. For, as I have said, the Jews cannot escape this comparison on the part of the angel between the state of the Church under the legal and the new covenants; for the latter privileges were to be far better, more excellent, and more desirable, than those existing in the ancient Church from its commencement. But the rest tomorrow.​
My apologies for the long quotes but you did want something that differed from your stated theory.

Well, not "Messiah the prince" but "the anointed one, the prince" which may or may not refer to Christ since "the anointed one" may refer to a king, a priest, a prophet, or some other who is anointed for some purpose.

Yes. It was very long but very correct. It will however be of no avail to Bob.
 
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Major1

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Why is it 490 years rather than 70 weeks? Your system of interpretation really has a lot of loaded terms and conflated ideas rolled up into "seventy weeks".

I will try to help you Ginger.

In Daniel 9: 24, Gabriel says, “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city.”

Almost all commentators agree that the seventy “sevens” should be understood as seventy “weeks” of years, in other words, a period of 490 years. These verses provide a sort of “clock” that gives an idea of when the Messiah would come and some of the events that would accompany His appearance.

Now WHY YEARS. CONTEXT is always the answer. Lets go back to Daniel 9:1-2...…….
"In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, of the seed of the Medes, which was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans;
In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books THE NUMBER OF THE YEARS whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.

WEEK = a set of SEVENTY SEVENS or 490 YEARS.

The prophecy goes on to divide the 490 years into three smaller units: one of 49 years, one of 434 years, and one 7 years. The final “week” of 7 years is further divided in half. Verse 25 says, “From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’” Seven “sevens” is 49 years, and sixty-two “sevens” is another 434 years:

49 years + 434 years = 483 years
 
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