How can you determine which is true?

ToBeLoved said:

And I see that as lack of faith. If the blood of Jesus has saved you from sin and created a new creation in you, adopted you as a son and sealed you until the Day of Redemption in God Himself, the Holy Spirit, then the lack of faith comes from God not being able to firmly hold you in His Hand. Jesus failure to loose what the Father has given Him (which Jesus says NONE Are lost, but the son of perdition (Judas)) and the lack of faith that God sealed you in Himself and you are a co-heir with Christ as an adopted Son.

It is not whether WE are enough, but are GOD’S promises and Justness enough.

Lack of faith in God.

God does the holding and is just and righteous to keep HIS PROMISES

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Did you read post 126 friend? Those “sealed with the Spirit” can grieve the Spirit and become sons of disobedience.

BNR32FAN said:

As I showed the words “has been” is not in the Greek text.

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Well now you're just being silly. English doesn't have verb endings as Greek does to indicate to indicate the tense, mood and so forth. A proper English translation therefore must add words which reflect the Greek verb endings. (Guess you don't know about the concept of "translation").

BNR32FAN said:

The word “ho” G 3588 is more accurately translated to “is” as shown in the KJV, and ASV, probably the most accurate would be the ESV as the word “ho” is often omitted from English translations.

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Well that pretty much proves you don't know what you're talking about. <3588> means this, that, or these (it's not a verb). Combined with "pas" it means whoever.

BNR32FAN said:

The term born according to the full definition I provided in my previous post is not unidirectional.

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"born" is the same word in Greek as in English used for physical birth.

bcbsr said:

"born" is the same word in Greek as in English used for physical birth.

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Then you deny the strong’s definition?

BNR32FAN said:

And you still refuse to address John 15:1-8 specifically teaches that abiding is absolutely required for salvation. I’m just the messenger not the author my friend.

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The same word abide <3306> is used in "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains <3306> in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God."

Therefore since 1John 3:9 indicates those born of God continue to abide in him because they have been born of God, and not because of a choice on their part, given that he "cannot sin" indicates inability to do otherwise, you are once again proven wrong, seeing as those born of God do abide.

I've disproven you on every point, and you have yet to disprove me on any.

BNR32FAN said:

Then you deny the strong’s definition?

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You're saying that strongs denies that "born" can refer to physical birth? You're down to grasping at straws at this point.

bcbsr said:

Yes they are "Whoever has been born of God" NKJV "has been" is the English translation of the perfect tense in the Greek.

Furthermore the term "born" itself is uni-direction. Having been born a person cannot be unborn as you allege.

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I've seen people die. That's not 'unborn', but is final (earth-wise).

BNR32FAN said:

Did you read post 126 friend? Those “sealed with the Spirit” can grieve the Spirit and become sons of disobedience.

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Not from post 126, but from Scripture, this is true,
but words even from God
or from someone raised from the dead
might
not change someone's mind ..... God's Grace and their willingness is required, afaik.

:/

bcbsr said:

You're saying that strongs denies that "born" can refer to physical birth? You're down to grasping at straws at this point.

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But we don’t experience a physical birth by being born of God now do we? So does that definition apply to being born of God?

BNR32FAN said:

But we don’t experience a physical birth by being born of God now do we? So does that definition apply to being born of God?

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Maybe you don't. But people who have been born of God generally do have experiences as a result, as is indicated throughout 1John and elsewhere. A renewed conscience, power to no live a sinful lifestyle. Natural inclination to do what is right. Recognizing what is true. (1JOhn 4:6) Having the mind of Christ. Experiencing the constant presence of the Holy Spirit, by which we walk.

Isa 30:21 Your ears shall hear a word behind you, saying, "This is the way, walk in it," Whenever you turn to the right hand Or whenever you turn to the left.

BNR32FAN said:

But we don’t experience a physical birth by being born of God now do we? So does that definition apply to being born of God?

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I think there are very different and conflicting/opposing doctrines at risk ,
so the word definitions of the various parties will not be the same,
and no resolution can be arrived at.

:/

yeshuaslavejeff said:

I think there are very different and conflicting/opposing doctrines at risk ,
so the word definitions of the various parties will not be the same,
and no resolution can be arrived at.

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It just requires a more comprehensive understanding of the scriptures. John 15:1-8 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles to abide or they will be cut off from the vine thrown away to wither and thrown into the fire and burned. My beloved adversary claims 1 John 3:9 says if they are born of God they have no choice but to abide. That they cannot fail to abide which makes Jesus look ridiculous in John 15 for warning His apostles about doing something that they cannot do. That He is warning them about doing something that is impossible according to bcbsr.

BNR32FAN said:

As I showed the words “has been” is not in the Greek text. The word “ho” G 3588 is more accurately translated to “is” as shown in the KJV, and ASV, probably the most accurate would be the ESV as the word “ho” is often omitted from English translations. We see this example in this very same verse where “ho” G3588 is omitted as it appears between the words “of” and “God”. In this aspect I think the ESV is a better translation because the word “ho” 3588 does not translate to “has been”.

“Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ASV‬‬

“No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭ESV‬‬

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Your response is irrelevant. Whether one is, or has been born of God still makes that person a believer correct? You can correctly say that you were born of God on a certain date when you first repented and trusted in the blood of Jesus for forgiveness. You can also say that you are born of God in the present tense. In either instance, you are still a believer both in the past and present tense. However, as I pointed out those verses which you did not even bother to address, you as God's child are righteous contingent upon practicing righteous (v.7). Converse logic dictates that you are unrighteous if you do not practice righteousness. Does grace give you a license to sin so that you you would still be considered righteous? That would be ludicrous. That is why John wrote that those children who practice sin are of the devil (v.8). Christians can either choose to walk in the light or to walk in the darkness. Those who walk in the light have their sins cleansed (1 Jn 1:7). Notice that verse states IF we walk in the light.... "If" indicates the possibility - not certainty that believers will walk in the light. This plainly contradicts your notion that all genuine believers will not practice sin. Believers who walk in the light still sin but they do not practice sin. When they occasionally sin, Jesus' blood cleanses upon repentance. No such assurance for believers who choose to engage in the practice of sin. Instead of walking in the light, they walk in darkness and do not even have fellowship with God (1 Jn 1:6). That is why they are children of the devil as their lifestyle evidences no repentance. Scripture interprets scripture.

Oldmantook said:

Your response is irrelevant. Whether one is, or has been born of God still makes that person a believer correct? You can correctly say that you were born of God on a certain date when you first repented and trusted in the blood of Jesus for forgiveness. You can also say that you are born of God in the present tense. In either instance, you are still a believer both in the past and present tense. However, as I pointed out those verses which you did not even bother to address, you as God's child are righteous contingent upon practicing righteous (v.7). Converse logic dictates that you are unrighteous if you do not practice righteousness. Does grace give you a license to sin so that you you would still be considered righteous? That would be ludicrous. That is why John wrote that those children who practice sin are of the devil (v.8). Christians can either choose to walk in the light or to walk in the darkness. Those who walk in the light have their sins cleansed (1 Jn 1:7). Notice that verse states IF we walk in the light.... "If" indicates the possibility - not certainty that believers will walk in the light. This plainly contradicts your notion that all genuine believers will not practice sin. Believers who walk in the light still sin but they do not practice sin. When they occasionally sin, Jesus' blood cleanses upon repentance. No such assurance for believers who choose to engage in the practice of sin. Instead of walking in the light, they walk in darkness and do not even have fellowship with God (1 Jn 1:6). That is why they are children of the devil as their lifestyle evidences no repentance. Scripture interprets scripture.

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I’m not sure if perhaps you replied to the wrong person brother but I believe every
Christian does sin. I believe that continuance in both repentance and works are essential to having a saving faith and abiding in Christ. I do not believe salvation is the result of a one time act of believing. I also do not believe in eternal security. I believe as Christians we still possess free will with the ability to choose to do both good and evil and we will be judged accordingly. If we fail to repent and abide then we will suffer God’s wrath in the lake of fire.

JohnB445 said in post #1:

I have seen both views on eternal security. I honestly don't know for sure.

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Note that the Bible does not teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if Christians do continue in the faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience to God, and do good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if Christians do continue in faith and good works of faith, they will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin that they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all that they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help other Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming God's Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying that an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There is no assurance that Christians will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not remove words from the book of Revelation, and then publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there is no assurance that they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do not worship the future Antichrist, and his image, and do not willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there is no assurance that they will not choose to do that (1 Timothy 4:1).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All of this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in Christians, but the healthy fear which all Christians are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all of this is said not to engender any despair in Christians, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ Himself, which all Christians must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right things (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they cannot do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus Christ is not a hard taskmaster. He will never give Christians more work to do for Him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if Christians ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it is not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back, and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work He is actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

BNR32FAN said:

I’m not sure if perhaps you replied to the wrong person brother but I believe every Christian does sin. I believe that continuance in both repentance and works are essential to having a saving faith and abiding in Christ. I do not believe salvation is the result of a one time act of believing. I also do not believe in eternal security. I believe as Christians we still possess free will with the ability to choose to do both good and evil and we will be judged accordingly. If we fail to repent and abide then we will suffer God’s wrath in the lake of fire.

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I apologize. It does look like I responded to the wrong person as I am also agreement with your beliefs.

Oldmantook said:

I apologize. It does look like I responded to the wrong person as I am also agreement with your beliefs.

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Yes I believe there are way too many warnings in the scriptures directed to all people not just nonbelievers pertaining to loss of salvation. If we cannot lose our salvation then these warnings would be completely irrelevant and useless warnings if they are warning us of things we cannot possibly do. Furthermore I believe all the warnings pertaining to loss of salvation can only be directed towards believers as nonbelievers cannot be saved because we know no one can be saved without believing because we are all incapable of living a sin free life.

BNR32FAN said:

Yes I believe there are way too many warnings in the scriptures directed to all people not just nonbelievers pertaining to loss of salvation. If we cannot lose our salvation then these warnings would be completely irrelevant and useless warnings if they are warning us of things we cannot possibly do. Furthermore I believe all the warnings pertaining to loss of salvation can only be directed towards believers as nonbelievers cannot be saved because we know no one can be saved without believing because we are all incapable of living a sin free life.

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Tragically what you write is true. Those in the flock who are taught eternal security from the pulpit may feel secure when they may in fact not be secure due to disobedience. It is nonsensical to believe that the plethora of warnings against falling away throughout the NT epistles are for unbelievers only. I have asked more than a few Christians who hold to eternal security if they would take the mark of the beast. No one has answered that they would take it despite their closely held belief that there is nothing that can snatch them out of the Father's hand. That says it all about the the fallacy of their soteriological doctrine.