The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

GingerBeer said:
It can't be a "pre-advent" thingie. It's already advent now!

For those living after the cross - the advent is the 2nd coming.

YeshuaFan · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
until you read the actual Bible in Daniel 7, Rev 11, Rev 12, Rev 13.

Revelation describes the end time events right at close of this Age, not throughout Middle Ages!

YeshuaFan · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
Daniel 7 is not the GWT in Rev 20 and your own statement disproves your argument because in Daniel 7 the text says the saints are subjects of that judgment (so it is 2 Cor 5:10 not Rev 20) and as even you admit - the saints are not subjects of the Rev 20 judgment after the 1000 years.

Your "solution" of ignoring every Bible detail quoted in the OP is not serving you well.

The judgment there is for all of the lost sinners, none of the saved ones!

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
Revelation describes the end time events right at close of this Age, not throughout Middle Ages!

until you read it.

In Rev 12 we have the birth of Christ - His ascension into heaven - then 1260 years of the dark ages and persecution of the saints.

In Rev 1 the text tells us explicitly that the content of the message given to John -- at the time of John 2000 years ago - deals with "19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

All we have to oppose that clear text of scripture is your own creative writing where you "quote you"

Were we simply not supposed to notice?

Less tradition and "storied" - more scripture please

YeshuaFan · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
until you read it.

In Rev 12 we have the birth of Christ - His ascension into heaven - then 1260 years of the dark ages and persecution of the saints.

In Rev 1 the text tells us explicitly that the content of the message given to John -- at the time of John 2000 years ago - deals with "19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

All we have to oppose that clear text of scripture is your own creative writing where you "quote you"

Were we simply not supposed to notice?

Less tradition and "storied" - more scripture please

There were things described that were applied to right at time of revelation, and then things future, as in not happened yet!

Major1 · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
until you read it.

In Rev 12 we have the birth of Christ - His ascension into heaven - then 1260 years of the dark ages and persecution of the saints.

In Rev 1 the text tells us explicitly that the content of the message given to John -- at the time of John 2000 years ago - deals with "19 Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things."

All we have to oppose that clear text of scripture is your own creative writing where you "quote you"

Were we simply not supposed to notice?

Less tradition and "storied" - more scripture please

Revelation 1:19...…….
"Write therefore the things that you have seen, those that are and those that are to take place after this."

"Write the things which thou hast seen" -
An account of the vision which thou hast had

"And the things which are"-
Give an account of those things which thou hast seen as designed to represent the condition of the seven churches. He had seen not only the Saviour, but he had seen seven lampstands, and seven stars in the hand of the Saviour, and he is now commanded to record the meaning of these symbols as referring to things then actually existing in the seven churches.

"And the things which shall be hereafter "- The Greek phrase rendered "hereafter" - μετὰ ταῦτα meta tauta - means "after these things"; that is, he was to make a correct representation of the things which then were, and then to record what would occur "after these things:" to wit, of the images, symbols, and truths, which would be disclosed to him after what he had already seen. The expression refers to future times. He does not say for how long a time; but the revelations which were to be made referred to events which were to occur beyond those which were then taking place. Nothing can be argued from the use of this language in regard to the length of time embraced in the revelation-whether it extended only for a few years or whether it embraced all coming time. The more natural interpretation, however, would seem to be, that it would stretch far into future years, and that it was designed to give at least an outline of what would be the character of the future in general.

Major1 · Dec 21, 2018

---Staff Edit---

Daniel 7:9-10 Thrones Were Set Up

We are being prepared to see judgment take place. First, we see that thrones were set up. When we think of thrones, we think of ruling as kings. But the king does not sit on his throne all the time. The throne is the place that he sits on when he judges. In other words, thrones are the seats from which judgment is made. Remember, David wrote, "In Jerusalem,

Ps. 122:5 ...thrones were set for judgment, the thrones of the house of David.

Now, in Revelation 20, John wrote,

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them...

These are the same thrones of judgment that Daniel saw. This is not "the great white throne judgment that we discussed at length on Sunday morning in our study of Hebrews 6:2. No, this judgment is called, "the judgment of the nations." The judgment of the nations comes when Christ returns to earth. The white throne judgment takes place a thousand years later, after His millennial reign.
---Staff edit---

Major1 · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
Yes

Does that help you understand the judgment in Daniel 7??

The Adventist teaching of an investigative judgment of the professed people of God is foreign to the context of Daniel 8.

According to the traditional Adventist position the “cleansing of the sanctuary” of Daniel 8:14 is an investigative judgment of the professed people of God. A study of the context of this verse reveals that this unusual interpretation finds no support in this chapter.

Bible commentators are almost unanimous in seeing the Greek king, Antiochus IV Epiphanes, as the fulfillment of the little horn of Daniel, chapter 8. Antiochus Epiphanes was an erratic megalomaniac who made it his express purpose to eliminate the religion of Jehovah from the face of the earth. The history of this evil madman is graphically outlined in the two intertestamental books of Maccabees, which describe a horrific period of desecration and bloodshed during the years 171-165 BC.

During this terrible period of approximately 2300 days, Antiochus attempted to impose Greek customs upon the Jewish people. Along with many other terrible outrages he banned the continual sacrifices, desecrated the temple by installing a pagan image, poured swine’s broth around the temple and tortured and murdered thousands who refused to abandon their faith. Never before had there been such a blatant, foul and arrogant attempt to totally wipe out the faith of Israel.
Why the Little Horn of Daniel 8 Must Be Antiochus Epiphanes | Adventist Today

GingerBeer · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
For those living after the cross - the advent is the 2nd coming.

That'd be the SECOND advent.

YeshuaFan · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
Indeed that is what the 2nd coming is

"In Christian theology, the pre-advent judgment is a belief that the Last Judgment will occur before the Second Coming (or "Advent") of Jesus.[1]"
Pre-advent judgment - Wikipedia

Just keeping it simple and obvious...

There is the Bhema Judgement seat of Christ, and the final Great White throne AFTER the second coming and the millennium itself...

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

Major1 said:
This it totally a Seventh Day Advantist false teaching.

Hint: Every text you find in scripture that refutes one of your traditions -- cannot be blamed on Seventh-day Adventists.

You have to find a "compelling" response outside of "I don't like Seventh-day Adventist doctrine".

Have you considered something compelling? Substantive?

rant alone -- is not an answer to the texts presented.

Major1 said:
sar·casm
1. harsh or bitter derision or irony.
2. a sharply ironical taunt; sneering or cutting remark: a review full of sarcasms. (dictionary.reference.com)

Do YOU actually think that your ungodly why of ...<obligatory rant deleted here>

As I said - a substantive response to the text details actually in the OP is the ideal. See it would be nice for you to post something that is useful by others maybe even who share your same POV.

How is this not incredibly obvious??

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
There is the Bhema Judgement seat of Christ, and the final Great White throne AFTER the second coming and the millennium itself...

Indeed those are two different things as I keep saying repeatedly... how many times can we keep underlining that point?

Daniel 7 is describing the judgment seat of Christ of 2 Cor 5:10 because the saints are most certainly subjects in that judgment -- see Dan 7:22

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

YeshuaFan said:
His way of posting comes from him... <obligatory rant deleted here>

posting in response to the actual OP is the goal ... please consider it. CF rules actually demand it.

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

Major1 said:
In sharp contrast, the Word of God teaches that NO ONE is worthy of Heaven (Romans 3:23). "ALL are sinners and NO ONE is worthy to be saved".

Indeed all are sinners (Rom 3:23) - all need the Gospel.

Now find some response to the actual texts given in first two posts... or keep admitting that you have nothing to offer but "rant" and diatribe pejoratives.

Consider this for a moment. The Seventh-day Adventist church is one of the fastest growing Christian denominations in the world according to Christianity Today -- you my friend might be in a position to shed some light for those new would-be Adventist "interests" -- IF you could offer them more substance than "rant alone" or than "avoid the texts that are the substance of this topic"

The more you do that - the more you convince them that maybe the SDA position really is right after all... maybe all the opposition has is hot air, desk pounding, harrumph!! and avoid-the-texts-because-they-show-the-SDA-position-to-be-correct.

Why not try a compelling response that is capable of "dealing with the details in scripture" already given here?? Think of all those people that could help.

Consider a well thought out compelling response.

This could be your moment to really excel on this topic.

Major1 said:
Agreed.

Romans 3:23...….
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God".

Indeed all are sinners (Rom 3:23) - all need the Gospel. (to quote myself again...)

But it would be nice to advance the point you are trying to make since that one basic is actually common to all sides of this discussion.

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

Major1 said:
The Adventist teaching of an investigative judgment of the professed people of God is foreign to the context of Daniel 8.

Is it your claim that you "need" to avoid the Daniel 7 text in the OP and read "Daniel 8 instead" to hold to your opposition to it??

If so... I find that interesting.

Because in my Bible - Daniel 7 forms the context for Daniel 8.

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.

But if you hold scripture at a "sufficient" distance you could simply ignore all that and imagine that Daniel 7 was written by "Seventh-day Adventists" so the "details" it presents can be ignored.

Major1 said:
First, there is NO such thing as "Investigative Judgment," it is an exclusive teaching of Seventh-Day Adventists which is not found in the Bible.

YeshuaFan said:
Its the Great White throne one from Revelation 20, and NO Christian will be found there!

Daniel 7 is not the GWT in Rev 20 and your own statement disproves your argument because in Daniel 7 the text says the saints are subjects of that judgment (so it is 2 Cor 5:10 not Rev 20) and as even you admit - the saints are not subjects of the Rev 20 judgment after the 1000 years.

YeshuaFan said:
The judgment there is for all of the lost sinners, none of the saved ones!

True of Rev 20 ... not true of Daniel 7 where "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Major1 said:
Daniel 7:9-10 Thrones Were Set Up

We are being prepared to see judgment take place. First, we see that thrones were set up.

Hey I just want to affirm you for taking a look at a few verses in Daniel 7. This is helpful and perhaps by looking into the details you will see that I am correct in the OP - or perhaps you will show 'from the details in the text' and not creative writing -- that in fact I have made some mistake in the first two posts of this thread. This can be your moment.

Major1 said:
When we think of thrones, we think of ruling as kings. But the king does not sit on his throne all the time.

Ahh yes ... musing and creative writing...

Ok well then "back to the actual text" it is for me.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

turns out "Bible details matter"

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

Major1 said:
In sharp contrast, the Word of God teaches that NO ONE is worthy of Heaven (Romans 3:23). "ALL are sinners and NO ONE is worthy to be saved".

Indeed all are sinners (Rom 3:23) - all need the Gospel.

Now find some response to the actual texts given in first two posts... or keep admitting that you have nothing to offer but "rant" and diatribe pejoratives.

Consider this for a moment. The Seventh-day Adventist church is one of the fastest growing Christian denominations in the world according to Christianity Today -- you my friend might be in a position to shed some light for those new would-be Adventist "interests" -- IF you could offer them more substance than "rant alone" or than "avoid the texts that are the substance of this topic"

The more you do that - the more you convince them that maybe the SDA position really is right after all... maybe all the opposition has is hot air, desk pounding, harrumph!! and avoid-the-texts-because-they-show-the-SDA-position-to-be-correct.

Why not try a compelling response that is capable of "dealing with the details in scripture" already given here?? Think of all those people that could help.

Consider a well thought out compelling response.

This could be your moment to really excel on this topic.

Major1 said:
1 John 4:1...……….
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Oh how true and how often we see creative writing and musing speculation rather than the pure quote of the Word of God on some topics. Amen to that!!

I merely quote Daniel 7 I offer no prophetic insight - just the text.

If you are inserting 1 John 4 to warn us to beware of Daniel 7 ... then you are out on a limb my friend. Daniel is a good Bible prophet as it turns out.

When one is at war 'with the text' then the "mere quote of the text" is sufficient cause to give rise to strong objection to it.

GingerBeer · Dec 21, 2018

BobRyan said:
Indeed that is what the 2nd coming is

So what's this "investigative judgement" thing?

Daniel 7 says:

(Daniel 7:1-28)
[1] In the first year of Belshazzar, king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and a vision in his head on his bed. And, writing down the dream, he understood it in a concise manner, and so, summarising it tersely, he said: [2] I saw in my vision at night, and behold, the four winds of the heavens fought upon the great sea. [3] And four great beasts, different from one another, ascended from the sea. [4] The first was like a lioness and had the wings of an eagle. I watched as its wings were plucked off, and it was raised from the earth and stood on its feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. [5] And behold, another beast, like a bear, stood to one side, and there were three rows in its mouth and in its teeth, and they spoke to it in this way: “Arise, devour much flesh.” [6] After this, I watched, and behold, another like a leopard, and it had wings like a bird, four upon it, and four heads were on the beast, and power was given to it. [7] After this, I watched in the vision of the night, and behold, a fourth beast, terrible yet wondrous, and exceedingly strong; it had great iron teeth, eating yet crushing, and trampling down the remainder with his feet, but it was unlike the other beasts, which I had seen before it, and it had ten horns. [8] I considered the horns, and behold, another little horn rose out of the midst of them. And three of the first horns were rooted out by its presence. And behold, eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking unnatural things.

[9] I watched until thrones were set up, and the ancient of days sat down. His garment was radiant like snow, and the hair of his head like clean wool; his throne was flames of fire, its wheels had been set on fire. [10] A river of fire rushed forth from his presence. Thousands upon thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times hundreds of thousands attended before him. The trial began, and the books were opened. [11] I watched because of the voice of the great words which that horn was speaking, and I saw that the beast had been destroyed, and its body was ruined and had been handed over to be burnt with fire. [12] Likewise, the power of the other beasts was taken away, and a limited time of life was appointed to them, until one time and another. [13] I watched, therefore, in the vision of the night, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, one like a son of man arrived, and he approached all the way to the ancient of days, and they presented him before him. [14] And he gave him power, and honour, and the kingdom, and all peoples, tribes, and languages will serve him. His power is an eternal power, which will not be taken away, and his kingdom, one which will not be corrupted.

[15] My spirit was terrified. I, Daniel, was fearful at these things, and the visions of my head disturbed me. [16] I approached one of the attendants and asked the truth from him about all these things. He told me the interpretation of the words, and he instructed me: [17] “These four great beasts are four kingdoms, which will rise from the earth. [18] Yet it is the saints of the Most High God who will receive the kingdom, and they will hold the kingdom from this generation, and forever and ever.”

[19] After this, I wanted to learn diligently about the fourth beast, which was very different from all, and exceedingly terrible; his teeth and claws were of iron; he devoured and crushed, and the remainder he trampled with his feet; [20] and about the ten horns, which he had on his head, and about the other, which had sprung up, before which three horns fell, and about that horn which had eyes and a mouth speaking great things, and which was more powerful than the rest. [21] I watched, and behold, that horn made war against the holy ones and prevailed over them, [22] until the Ancient of days came and gave judgement to the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the time arrived, and the holy ones obtained the kingdom.

[23] And thus he said, “The fourth beast will be the fourth kingdom on earth, which will be greater than all the kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth, and will trample and crush it. [24] Moreover, the ten horns of the same kingdom will be ten kings, and another will rise up after them, and he will be mightier than the ones before him, and he will bring down three kings. [25] And he will speak words against the Supreme One, and will exhaust the holy ones of the Most High, and he will think about what it would take to change the times and the laws, and they will be given into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time. [26] And a trial will begin, so that his power may be taken away, and be crushed, and be undone all the way to the end. [27] Yet the kingdom, and the power, and the greatness of that kingdom, which is under all of heaven, shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all kings will serve and obey him.”

[28] And here is the end of the message. I, Daniel, was greatly disturbed by my thoughts, and my mood was changed in me, but I preserved the message in my heart.

You quoted from the blue text part of the chapter. Why are you calling this "the investigative judgement"?

liberty of conscience · Dec 21, 2018

GingerBeer said:
So what's this "investigative judgement" thing?

Daniel 7 says:

(Daniel 7:1-28)
[1] In the first year of Belshazzar, king of Babylon, Daniel saw a dream and a vision in his head on his bed. And, writing down the dream, he understood it in a concise manner, and so, summarising it tersely, he said: [2] I saw in my vision at night, and behold, the four winds of the heavens fought upon the great sea. [3] And four great beasts, different from one another, ascended from the sea. [4] The first was like a lioness and had the wings of an eagle. I watched as its wings were plucked off, and it was raised from the earth and stood on its feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it. [5] And behold, another beast, like a bear, stood to one side, and there were three rows in its mouth and in its teeth, and they spoke to it in this way: “Arise, devour much flesh.” [6] After this, I watched, and behold, another like a leopard, and it had wings like a bird, four upon it, and four heads were on the beast, and power was given to it. [7] After this, I watched in the vision of the night, and behold, a fourth beast, terrible yet wondrous, and exceedingly strong; it had great iron teeth, eating yet crushing, and trampling down the remainder with his feet, but it was unlike the other beasts, which I had seen before it, and it had ten horns. [8] I considered the horns, and behold, another little horn rose out of the midst of them. And three of the first horns were rooted out by its presence. And behold, eyes like the eyes of a man were in this horn, and a mouth speaking unnatural things.

[9] I watched until thrones were set up, and the ancient of days sat down. His garment was radiant like snow, and the hair of his head like clean wool; his throne was flames of fire, its wheels had been set on fire. [10] A river of fire rushed forth from his presence. Thousands upon thousands ministered to him, and ten thousand times hundreds of thousands attended before him. The trial began, and the books were opened. [11] I watched because of the voice of the great words which that horn was speaking, and I saw that the beast had been destroyed, and its body was ruined and had been handed over to be burnt with fire. [12] Likewise, the power of the other beasts was taken away, and a limited time of life was appointed to them, until one time and another. [13] I watched, therefore, in the vision of the night, and behold, with the clouds of heaven, one like a son of man arrived, and he approached all the way to the ancient of days, and they presented him before him. [14] And he gave him power, and honour, and the kingdom, and all peoples, tribes, and languages will serve him. His power is an eternal power, which will not be taken away, and his kingdom, one which will not be corrupted.

[15] My spirit was terrified. I, Daniel, was fearful at these things, and the visions of my head disturbed me. [16] I approached one of the attendants and asked the truth from him about all these things. He told me the interpretation of the words, and he instructed me: [17] “These four great beasts are four kingdoms, which will rise from the earth. [18] Yet it is the saints of the Most High God who will receive the kingdom, and they will hold the kingdom from this generation, and forever and ever.”

[19] After this, I wanted to learn diligently about the fourth beast, which was very different from all, and exceedingly terrible; his teeth and claws were of iron; he devoured and crushed, and the remainder he trampled with his feet; [20] and about the ten horns, which he had on his head, and about the other, which had sprung up, before which three horns fell, and about that horn which had eyes and a mouth speaking great things, and which was more powerful than the rest. [21] I watched, and behold, that horn made war against the holy ones and prevailed over them, [22] until the Ancient of days came and gave judgement to the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the time arrived, and the holy ones obtained the kingdom.

[23] And thus he said, “The fourth beast will be the fourth kingdom on earth, which will be greater than all the kingdoms, and will devour the whole earth, and will trample and crush it. [24] Moreover, the ten horns of the same kingdom will be ten kings, and another will rise up after them, and he will be mightier than the ones before him, and he will bring down three kings. [25] And he will speak words against the Supreme One, and will exhaust the holy ones of the Most High, and he will think about what it would take to change the times and the laws, and they will be given into his hand until a time, and times, and half a time. [26] And a trial will begin, so that his power may be taken away, and be crushed, and be undone all the way to the end. [27] Yet the kingdom, and the power, and the greatness of that kingdom, which is under all of heaven, shall be given to the people of the holy ones of the Most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all kings will serve and obey him.”

[28] And here is the end of the message. I, Daniel, was greatly disturbed by my thoughts, and my mood was changed in me, but I preserved the message in my heart.
You quoted from the blue text part of the chapter. Why are you calling this "the investigative judgement"?

Look at the text, think carefully:

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
Dan 7:12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.

See also:

Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

[1] Throne put/moved into place (it was in the Holy Place before, now in the Most Holy, see Revelation 3 & 4)
[2] The Father then sits, after having moved (see Revelation 3-5)
[3] myriads of angels are involved in this event, they minister in it
[4] judgment is going on, while events are still transpiring on earth, after Pagan roman empire breaks apart into ten, after the little horn arises, and before the second Advent of Jesus and the giving of the kingdom to Him
[5] books are opened (closed before this moment)
[6] what was the purpose of opening the books but to read in them, to search in them, to investigate matters from that which is written in them
[7] whoever was found (read therein, searched and seen therein from the investigation) therein the Lamb's book of life, would be "delivered", which means they were still on earth and events were still transpiring before the second Advent (see Revelation 14:6-7)

BobRyan · Dec 21, 2018

GingerBeer said:
So what's this "investigative judgement" thing?

Dan 7:1-8 provides a time frame for it - by progressing through 4 world empires - to let the reader know that the judgment takes place some time after the fall of the pagan Roman empire. Daniel is writing chapter 7 in the middle of the 6th century B.C. Pagan Rome does not fall entirely until sometime in the 5th century A.D.

23 “Thus he said: ‘The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it. 24 As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings. 25 He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time. 26 But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever. 27 Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.’ (i.e. the second coming of Christ)

The Judgment completes before the second coming. Once it does complete - we have the second coming.

Thus in Rev 14:6-7 "having an everlasting Gospel to preach to every nation saying... the hour of His judgment HAS come..."

And so it is "pre advent" and in vs 9-10 it is a matter of looking into the "details" of what is written in the books "The court sat and the books were opened"

And the subject of that judgment includes the saints "Judgment was passed in favor of the saints" Dan 7:22

It proceeds along the lines that Paul defines for us in Romans 2-- so everything is open and above board..."no partiality with God" Rom 2:11

The pre-advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7

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