Is it Idolatry?

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HTacianas

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Yes they understood Paul to not to be referring to Jesus' literal body, as I also understand. And I've given you scriptural reasons for such, of which you haven't bothered to responded, apparently not being all the familiar with handling the scriptures.

Thank you for your advice. But i am familiar with the scriptures but the difference between you and myself is that I accept them for what they plainly state rather than torturing their language to make them mean something else.
 
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HTacianas

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I have a question. Are we members of the body of Christ? I thought that was literal.

The "body of Christ" is a name for the Church. It stems from the ancient Jewish understanding of marriage. Jesus said that a man and woman who were married are "the same flesh". The Church is joined to Christ as a bride to a groom but it it isn't the same as the Eucharist.
 
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devin553344

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The "body of Christ" is a name for the Church. It stems from the ancient Jewish understanding of marriage. Jesus said that a man and woman who were married are "the same flesh". The Church is joined to Christ as a bride to a groom but it it isn't the same as the Eucharist.

Thanks, Yeah I think I got caught reading the single sentence instead of the entire paragraph and got confused as to the spirit's teaching me and what is written in the bible. I'm schizophrenic and spirits talk to me a lot, sometimes as god and I find their not always God. So I have to ask to make sure:

1 Corinthians 12:12-14 I guess answers my question too.
 
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Davidnic

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As early as 107 AD we see the unified Church believed the Eucharist was not a symbol but was the actual Body and Blood of Christ. And that the belief comes from the Apostles (since the writings on it come from those taught by the Apostles or by those taught by them). So we have one of St John The Apostles two known disciples directly confirming the belief in the Eucharist being the True body and Blood. We also have other contemporary Early Church Fathers confirming it.

So when did the early Church in total unity commit apostasy?

And if this is a belief consistent back to the early Church...then it is not Idolatry.
 
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bcbsr

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As early as 107 AD we see the unified Church believed the Eucharist was not a symbol but was the actual Body and Blood of Christ. And that the belief comes from the Apostles (since the writings on it come from those taught by the Apostles or by those taught by them). So we have one of St John The Apostles two known disciples directly confirming the belief in the Eucharist being the True body and Blood. We also have other contemporary Early Church Fathers confirming it.

So when did the early Church in total unity commit apostasy?

And if this is a belief consistent back to the early Church...then it is not Idolatry.
Regardless, still doesn't answer the question as to why the practice is not idolatry. Doesn't speak to the OP. I have provided scriptural reasons in this thread as to why I (and a vast number of Christians) don't believe in the worship of the Eucharist, but all I've got in response from the Magisterial denominations is that it's just tradition. I don't believe it's what the scriptures taught.
 
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bcbsr

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Well, in order to truly eat Christs flesh, shouldn't we as protestants ascribe to transubstantiation?
Because we don't believe in transubstantiation. We believe the communion bread is a symbol with the exception of Lutherans who go a bit beyond that, but not to the transubstantiation concept. We don't believe the eucharist is Christ as Orthodox and Catholics believe. And for that reason we don't believe in worshiping the Eucharist.

The purpose of this whole thread is to help me to figure out how I'm not suppose to reckon Eucharist worshipers as Idolaters. And so far there have been no arguments to convince me otherwise.
 
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Anand Prabhu Antony

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Isaiah 44:13-20 The carpenter measures with a line and makes an outline with a marker; he roughs it out with chisels and marks it with compasses. He shapes it in the form of man, of man in all his glory, that it may dwell in a shrine. He cut down cedars, or perhaps took a cypress or oak. He let it grow among the trees of the forest, or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow. It is man’s fuel for burning; some of it he takes and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread. But he also fashions a god and worships it; he makes an idol and bows down to it. Half of the wood he burns in the fire; over it he prepares his meal, he roasts his meat and eats his fill. He also warms himself and says, "Ah! I am warm; I see the fire." From the rest he makes a god, his idol; he bows down to it and worships. He prays to it and says, "Save me; you are my god." They know nothing, they understand nothing; their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see, and their minds closed so they cannot understand. No one stops to think, no one has the knowledge or understanding to say, "Half of it I used for fuel; I even baked bread over its coals, I roasted meat and I ate. Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left? Shall I bow down to a block of wood?" He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him; he cannot save himself, or say, "Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"

So is it idolatry if one makes a wooden cross, for example, and assumes that the real presence of God is in the object, believing that God transubstantiates Himself into the wooden object, the wooden cross itself becoming God to that person, and so worships the wooden object which to them is God?

Is it idolatry only to the person who doesn't believe in the real presence of God in the object? Should the person who doesn't believe that God has transubstantiated Himself into the object consider the person who does believe such to be an idolator?

And does the Isaiah passage above apply?

Idols has mislead many people in history.
When moses raised the bronze serpent, those who were biten by serpents looked at it and were cured, but people started worshipping it later.
When idol worshippers or venerators do their prayer at home or in public they immediately bring in thier mind the face of that idol, but not the feel for true living GOD.

2Kings 18:3-5
"Hoshea, the King, did right in the eyes of YaH according to all that David his ancestor had done. He removed the high places, and he smashed the stone pillars; he cut down the poles of Asherah worship and demolished the bronze serpent which Moses had made, for up to those days the Israelites were offering incense to it and called it Nehushtan. He trusted in YaH the GOD of Israel; there was no one like him, before or after, among all the kings of Judah".

the above scriptures proves that people will go wrong and will form their own ways of rituals. But, GOD corrected them through the king Hoshea by demolishing the bronze serpent.

Since, Moses heard the voice of GOD from the burning bush, did he make an idol of the burning bush and gave his people? No.

Jeremiah 3:16
"it will be when you have multiplied and become fruitful in the land in those days,”declares YaH, “they will no longer say, ‘The ark of the covenant of YaH.’ And it will not come to mind, nor will they remember it, nor will they miss it, nor will it be made again".

GOD asked Moses to do the Tabernacle is just a shadow of forthcoming reality. That's why Jeremiah prophesied that the ark of the covenant of YaH will not be made again, because through Jesus Christ.. GOD himself dwelling inside us.

Hoshea demolished the bronze serpent, and also the ark of the covenant is no more in Jerusalem and is not remembered.

The new covenant communication is not from outside thing, but from inside our heart.

Acts 17:29-31
Therefore, because we are offspring of GOD, we ought not to think the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by human skill and thought. Therefore although GOD has overlooked the times of ignorance, he now commands all people everywhere to repent, because he has set a day on which he is going to judge the world in righteousness by the man Jesus Christ who He has appointed, having provided proof to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

The time of ignorance has passed really???
 
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bcbsr

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Idols has mislead many people in history.
When moses raised the bronze serpent, those who were biten by serpents looked at it and were cured, but people started worshipping it later.
That's an interesting point I was thinking of bringing up. In John 3 Jesus is likened to the bronze serpent.

John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"

Would Catholics therefore worship the bronze serpent as the Israelites ended up doing, and the king ending up breaking it into pieces to stop such idolatry?

I would imagine Catholics/Orthodox would argue that the serpent was a symbol, a metaphor for Christ, but Christ didn't substantiate himself into the snake, making the snake him.

We Christian non-Eucharist worshipers view the communion bread much as the bronze serpent - a symbol, a shadow of Christ. and not the reality. And to me that puts us in the non-idolater category.
 
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Anand Prabhu Antony

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That's an interesting point I was thinking of bringing up. In John 3 Jesus is likened to the bronze serpent.

John 3:14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up"

Would Catholics therefore worship the bronze serpent as the Israelites ended up doing, and the king ending up breaking it into pieces to stop such idolatry?

I would imagine Catholics/Orthodox would argue that the serpent was a symbol, a metaphor for Christ, but Christ didn't substantiate himself into the snake, making the snake him.

We Christian non-Eucharist worshipers view the communion bread much as the bronze serpent - a symbol, a shadow of Christ. and not the reality. And to me that puts us in the non-idolater category.
The serpent represents the sin, but we would not be worthy to be resurrected by GOD If we die as sinners on the cross.... and without Christ we are always sinners. That's why our Lord Jesus died on the cross, who is ever blameless, but carried our sins(serpent) on the cross. And He was worthy to be resurrected first and lives forever for GOD.

How do you look upon this one?
1 Corinthians 11:29-30
"For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died".
 
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Davidnic

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Regardless, still doesn't answer the question as to why the practice is not idolatry. Doesn't speak to the OP. I have provided scriptural reasons in this thread as to why I (and a vast number of Christians) don't believe in the worship of the Eucharist, but all I've got in response from the Magisterial denominations is that it's just tradition. I don't believe it's what the scriptures taught.

If it is Christ by Christ's decree it is not Idolatry. That it is that is testified to in the Early Church.

No matter whether you believe it's what the Scriptures taught, it is what the Church since its beginning believed. That is something you have to refute for your premise of Idolatry to be even an option.

Evidence has been provided that it is what was taught in the first 100 years by those taught directly by the Apostles. And it has been maintained by over 62% of Christians (if you look at adherents by congregation) to this day.

I don't understand how you don't see that the point of it being the body and blood of Christ is directly related to your point.

If the Eucharist is Christ made manifest then it is not idolatry any more that Shepherds kneeling before the manger were idolators.

So your only avenue is to say it is not Christ made manifest. To do that you have to refute those taught directly by the Apostles and those taught by them and show how your understanding of Scripture is greater than the unified early Church for over 1000 years.

Your premise rests on the Eucharist being a symbol. So you need to address why the early Church maintained, forcefully, it is the real Body and Blood.
 
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bcbsr

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The serpent represents the sin, but we would not be worthy to be resurrected by GOD If we die as sinners on the cross.... and without Christ we are always sinners. That's why our Lord Jesus died on the cross, who is ever blameless, but carried our sins(serpent) on the cross. And He was worthy to be resurrected first and lives forever for GOD.

How do you look upon this one?
1 Corinthians 11:29-30
"For the one who eats and drinks, if he does not recognize the body, eats and drinks judgment against himself. Because of this, many are weak and sick among you, and quite a few have died".
John 3 seems to indicate the Serpent represents Christ. The idea is that whoever was bitten by snakes and looks on the bronze serpent lives, thus liking to looking in Christ in faith for eternal life.

As for 1Cor 11:29-30 he's talking with regards to people who participate in communion without remembering the point of the symbolism, namely it's a remembrance of Christ's death. "do this in remembrance of me." 1Cor 11:24 So it's a memorial service. If a people show up for a memorial service just for the food, those are they who will be judged. And it's about the doing. "Whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes." That's what communion is about, proclaiming the Lord's death. It's not about some sort of Harry Potter magical ceremony. It's not about making God into a wafer and then eating God as if that construes some sort of magical powers. It's about affirming the significance of the Lords' death, by which he died for our justification.
 
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bcbsr

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If it is Christ by Christ's decree it is not Idolatry.
Worshiping the Eucharist as God is not what Jesus decreed. Catholics and Orthodox have misconstrued what the communion service is about. Clearly I don't read scripture the same way you do.

I assume you realize that many Christians don't believe the Eucharist is God. So are we "real" Christians? And what does it matter?
 
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Davidnic

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Worshiping the Eucharist as God is not what Jesus decreed. Catholics and Orthodox have misconstrued what the communion service is about. Clearly I don't read scripture the same way you do.

I assume you realize that many Christians don't believe the Eucharist is God. So are we "real" Christians? And what does it matter?

I don't go around for claiming whether someone's real Christian or not a real Christian or whether they are an idolator or not. God can decide these things.

If the Eucharist is Christ made manifest would it be wrong to kneel to it? Yes or no.

That is Central to your premise. If no then you need to look at what the early church believed and how they viewed Scripture.

If yes, why?
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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I have a question. Are we members of the body of Christ? I thought that was literal.
All Ekklesia are, yes. It is true, literal, and in line with all Scripture, God's Plan, God's Purpose in Christ Jesus, and Salvation.
 
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devin553344

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All Ekklesia are, yes. It is true, literal, and in line with all Scripture, God's Plan, God's Purpose in Christ Jesus, and Salvation.

I've had some interesting instruction on this from a spirit that called himself Jesus. It was some time ago and I don't think I'm supposed to share those stories on this site. But I can see it either way really from reading the scriptures. Thanks for your input :)
 
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