What I just don't understand about the Bible.

Hieronymus said:

Although i thumbs upped your post, i don't agree with your last statement.
It's not heresy to believe one can fall away i.m.o. (how i read things).
It's unlikely though, but not impossible.

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No, I meant that it is heresy to teach that one cannot fall away .. because that is precisely what Jesus says: "remain in me".

Serving Zion said:

No, I meant that it is heresy to teach that one cannot fall away .. because that is precisely what Jesus says: "remain in me".

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Aha.
Sorry. Misunderstood you.

devin553344 said:

Thanks for that, which proves my point. That we cannot entirely rest our faith on every word in the bible. You'll end up confusing yourself and thereby others. This is a good example where two scriptures contradict each other. Which is a point for the OP to consider when trying to understand what the bible says about salvation and losing it. Please look and compare the two following texts both from John? 1 John 2:15, John 3:16

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John 3:16 is saying that God was merciful to the ones who were lost in the world, because He knew that some would turn to repentance and be saved through grace by following Him in faith ("believing into Him") .. therefore, His love for the world was such that He even gave up His only-begotten, that the opportunity of salvation is perpetuated all the way to the end.. but, He doesn't love the way of the world, because the way of the world is ungodliness, leviathan-nachash, Babylon the great (the harlot who made all the nations drink of the fury of her sexual immorality). That is why He says "come out of her, my people, lest you take part in the plagues coming upon her".

Just as James says in James 4:4 - that the way of the world is at odds with the way of God, because it is a system of fear rather than love - accumulate, guard, consume rather than share, serve and care.

So there's this concept of what the world is: a system, a place, a people etc. We are always struggling as English speakers, to really grasp the fullness of what was said in the original language, because if John was writing in English, he might have been obligated to clarify the context: "Thus, indeed God loved the people of the world, that He gave up His only-begotten son", and "do not love the ways of the world or the things of it. If anyone loves being of the world (ie: Matthew 22:21, Luke 9:62, Luke 8:14, 1 Peter 4:3-4), the love of God is not in him (Matthew 6:24)".

Neostarwcc said:

What I just don't understand about the Bible is how can the writer of Hebrews in one sentence say that salvation is once for all in Hebrews 10:10 and in Hebrews 9:28. Yet in Hebrews 6:4-6 they apparently state that you can lose your salvation by falling away. Hebrews 6:4-6 has been brought up by multiple people who say that you can lose your salvation. It's my opinion that this interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't in fact scriptural since those who have a saving faith will never fall away because God's Holy Spirit works in that person to keep that person in the faith. So why the apparent contradiction in the Bible? And not just between multiple books but between the same Author? I just don't understand this can someone educate me please?

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There is no contradiction. The passages in Heb 10 and Heb 9 refer to the atoning sacrifice of Jesus - which is a one-time act of propitiation toward our sins. These verses refer to Jesus' one-time sacrifice - not that we are once saved always saved. Heb 6:4-6 - ...it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The verb tenses in this verse are present tense so the English translation is more accurately rendered as "crucifying" and "shaming." Thus these actions are ongoing and continuous which evidence no repentance whatsoever. So its meaning is since these believers are crucifying and shaming Christ and demonstrate no repentance, it is then impossible to renew them again to repentance. One must cease sinful actions and be willing to repent. If not, it is impossible to renew them to repentance.

The key verse that sheds light on this passage is verse 9.
John Owen. Commentary on Hebrews

Wherefore the impossibility intended, of what sort soever it be, respects the severity of God, not in refusing or rejecting the greatest sinners which seek after and would be renewed unto repentance, — which is contrary unto innumerable of his promises, — but in the giving up such sinners as those are here mentioned unto that obdurateness and obstinacy in sinning, that blindness of mind and hardness of heart, as that they neither can nor shall ever sincerely seek after repentance; nor may any means, according to the mind of God, be used to bring them thereunto.

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Those who have tasted (V5) have never swallowed or digested the Word of God. They are the hypocrites, false teachers, pretenders and the tares among the Wheat that will be rooted out on the last day (Matthew 7:21-23)

Serving Zion said:

John 3:16 is saying that God was merciful to the ones who were lost in the world, because He knew that some would turn to repentance and be saved through grace by following Him in faith ("believing into Him") .. therefore, His love for the world was such that He even gave up His only-begotten, that the opportunity of salvation is perpetuated all the way to the end.. but, He doesn't love the way of the world, because the way of the world is ungodliness, leviathan-nachash, Babylon the great (the harlot who made all the nations drink of the fury of her sexual immorality). That is why He says "come out of her, my people, lest you take part in the plagues coming upon her".

Just as James says in James 4:4 - that the way of the world is at odds with the way of God, because it is a system of fear rather than love - accumulate, guard, consume rather than share, serve and care.

So there's this concept of what the world is: a system, a place, a people etc. We are always struggling as English speakers, to really grasp the fullness of what was said in the original language, because if John was writing in English, he might have been obligated to clarify the context: "Thus, indeed God loved the people of the world, that He gave up His only-begotten son", and "do not love the ways of the world or the things of it. If anyone loves being of the world (ie: Matthew 22:21, Luke 9:62, Luke 8:14, 1 Peter 4:3-4), the love of God is not in him (Matthew 6:24)".

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Yeah if it was written the way your describing then I could believe it. And maybe I lack translation ability to read the original text in the different language. So then shouldn't they have translated it with a better set of words?

And then if they didn't use correct language to reflect the original meaning then there is contradiction in the English translated bible still. Someone would have to put a foot note down below explaining why the words don't reflect the true meaning of what John was saying.

And now I can't read the bible without an interpreter. Cause I'll get lost and not understand what it was truly meant to say. Now I see how all the different churches could form. I mean we do have a lot of churches on the earth.

Thanks for explaining it

devin553344 said:

Yeah if it was written the way your describing then I could believe it. And maybe I lack translation ability to read the original text in the different language. So then shouldn't they have translated it with a better set of words?

And then if they didn't use correct language to reflect the original meaning then there is contradiction in the English translated bible still. Someone would have to put a foot note down below explaining why the words don't reflect the true meaning of what John was saying.

And now I can't read the bible without an interpreter. Cause I'll get lost and not understand what it was truly meant to say. Now I see how all the different churches could form. I mean we do have a lot of churches on the earth.

Thanks for explaining it

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Yes, you are pretty well right about all of that. The fact is that the writers of the bible didn't write the bible in English, and there is no perfect way to translate the bible to English without losing some of the original impact .. in fact I would even go so far as to say that there is no way to write the same thing in English sometimes, because the English language produces tedious writing at that level of expression.

But regardless, this is the situation we are in, and God does want to have a relationship with us!

We are English readers trying to grasp the concepts that were being conveyed to a people who spoke a different language and who lived in a different reality, 2,000 years ago. Plus, we have a struggle to overcome the 2,000 years of folklore and bad Christian history that the writers could only imagine in their days.. plus, we have something quite new too, in these days when technology and communications makes the world completely different.. so yeah, what we can really count on is that we are doing right according to the truth, and that is enough if we share what we have with each other in order to grow.. and God is able to do His work through us.

The problems come when people allow sin to prevent that growth of unity, if for instance you were to say that it is impossible to understand how God can love the world and yet tell us to not love the world .. where it is entirely sensible to understand that He is saying it is noble to love the neighbour who is of the world, but not to love the worldliness that the neighbour is of.. then you would be arrogant because of pride and that would sever you from the life of Christ (consider this article, how a mortal sin like pride is "believed to destroy the life of grace and charity within a person").

The bible is a guideline for us, a collection of profoundly powerful truths .. but you have to remember that not everyone who knows the bible does receive the life that it speaks of, and there are those such as Abraham etc who had life-giving faith without the bible.

Serving Zion said:

therefore, His love for the world was such that He even gave up His only-begotten, that the opportunity of salvation is perpetuated all the way to the end.. .

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What do you mean by the phrase " the opportunity of salvation is perpetuated all the way to the end" ?

This short commentary is helpful too I think.
Apostasy and How it Happens by Sinclair Ferguson

oworm said:

What do you mean by the phrase " the opportunity of salvation is perpetuated all the way to the end" ?

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Excellent question!

Look at the prophecy in Daniel 9:20-27, which tells Daniel that the end will come after a period of seventy "sevens/weeks" (which is acknowledged as being periods of seven years .. therefore the end was to come after 490 years).

Look at the detail of the prophecy though, which says that there would be 69 "sevens" (that is 483 years), and Messiah would be cut off before the 70 weeks are over.. that brings about the war, and verse 27 says "until the end of the war, desolations have been decreed".

So that leads us to know how God's wisdom has secured Jesus' victory through the cross - that although Jesus said to Peter "don't you think I could ask my father and He would at once send 12 legions of angels?" .. and "I know all things are possible for you, but nevertheless, not my will but thine be done". So God gave up His son to the sinners - Jesus who knew no sin, became sin and was hung on the tree - cursed for our sake, why? Substitution.

The Christian covenant is a covenant of substitution - Messiah gave up His life "for His friends" (John 15:13), and we likewise give up our life, take up our cross to follow Him, so that He can continue His work through us (Romans 12:5, 1 Corinthians 12:12, John 14:12, Philippians 2:13).

In that way, because Jesus was cut off and prevented from completing His entire Messianic mission, through the transgression of the adversary (John 10:10), God has granted that He be raised and seated at His right hand in heaven while His enemies are "made to become a footstool for His feet" (consider Hebrews 7:23-25).

Serving Zion said:

Yes, you are pretty well right about all of that. The fact is that the writers of the bible didn't write the bible in English, and there is no perfect way to translate the bible to English without losing some of the original impact .. in fact I would even go so far as to say that there is no way to write the same thing in English sometimes, because the English language produces tedious writing at that level of expression.

But regardless, this is the situation we are in, and God does want to have a relationship with us!

We are English readers trying to grasp the concepts that were being conveyed to a people who spoke a different language and who lived in a different reality, 2,000 years ago. Plus, we have a struggle to overcome the 2,000 years of folklore and bad Christian history that the writers could only imagine in their days.. plus, we have something quite new too, in these days when technology and communications makes the world completely different.. so yeah, what we can really count on is that we are doing right according to the truth, and that is enough if we share what we have with each other in order to grow.. and God is able to do His work through us.

The problems come when people allow sin to prevent that growth of unity, if for instance you were to say that it is impossible to understand how God can love the world and yet tell us to not love the world .. where it is entirely sensible to understand that He is saying it is noble to love the neighbour who is of the world, but not to love the worldliness that the neighbour is of.. then you would be arrogant because of pride and that would sever you from the life of Christ (consider this article, how a mortal sin like pride is "believed to destroy the life of grace and charity within a person").

The bible is a guideline for us, a collection of profoundly powerful truths .. but you have to remember that not everyone who knows the bible does receive the life that it speaks of, and there are those such as Abraham etc who had life-giving faith without the bible.

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Yeah that is a good article I kinda follow their beliefs about sin. Although I wouldn't cut off my hand or pluck out my eye

Yeah I was in the military and was tested for language comprehension. They would present sentences in different language and ask us to give it's meaning in English. I failed miserably. They kept us awake for 72 hours and after that was the language test, but still I'm terrible at language.

But then there's Chinese language where glyphs take on big meaning. Which is why I wonder about the old testament sometimes.

hmmm....
so if I understand this right from what I am reading in this thread... in summary, what you all are saying, if you fall away after being saved, there is no chance for being forgiven and saved again.

I have messed up royally in the 20 years since I was saved. Did things I am not proud of. I was hoping that God would somehow forgive me still and I can go to heaven.

However, thanks for confirming to me what I had suspected for a while - Hebrews is crystal clear and I am screwed. I am going to hell forever and have no second chance at being accepted back by God.

tripleseven said:

hmmm....
so if I understand this right... in summary if you fall away after being saved, there is no chance for being forgiven and saved again.

I have messed up royally in the 20 years since I was saved. Did things I am not proud of. I was hoping that God would somehow forgive me still and I can go to heaven.

However, thanks for confirming to me what I had suspected for a while - Hebrews is crystal clear and I am screwed. I am going to hell forever and have no second chance at being accepted back by God.

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What you're describing doesn't sound like correct doctrine. Then why try after you've failed. You then are never forgiven and destined for hell. So why not just sin and enjoy evil. That doctrine compels people toward evil. That's not God, that's the devil. So then is that the God you worship? I wouldn't worship that God. It doesn't sound like he's worthy of worship.

In other words if forgiveness is a one shot deal then who did that God save? No one is the answer. Because we all fall short of perfection, it's in our nature as humans. And if that God saved no one, then the bible is fictional again or futile.

tripleseven said:

hmmm....
so if I understand this right... in summary if you fall away after being saved, there is no chance for being forgiven and saved again.

I have messed up royally in the 20 years since I was saved. Did things I am not proud of. I was hoping that God would somehow forgive me still and I can go to heaven.

However, thanks for confirming to me what I had suspected for a while - Hebrews is crystal clear and I am screwed. I am going to hell forever and have no second chance at being accepted back by God.

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Nah, the way you are speaking doesn't sound right - there must be some qualifier for your confidence that you aren't aware of yet.

Check out the checklist of criteria:

1. once were enlightened
2. —having tasted of the heavenly gift
3. become partakers of the Ruach ha-Kodesh
4. having tasted the good word of God
5. and the powers of the olam ha-ba

.. I think that #5 is probably the most immediately difficult criteria for most Christians to satisfy .. although #1 is a highly subjective judgement for anyone to make too..

Anyhow, it really is between yourself and Jesus, and not a thing that you want to go believing hastily. It really is a case of knowing Him personally (being a partaker of The Holy Spirit), so that you are without any doubt when He testifies that you have an unpardonable sin.. (which of course, you wouldn't be speaking so flippantly about if that was your reality! ).

I don't know. from Hebrews it looks like it says that if you get saved, then slip and leave the path for a time after getting saved, there is no chance of getting "re-saved"/forgiven ("re-crucifying" Christ) and you basically blew your chance (6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance).

I am missing something.

tripleseven said:

hmmm....
so if I understand this right from what I am reading in this thread... in summary, what you all are saying, if you fall away after being saved, there is no chance for being forgiven and saved again.

I have messed up royally in the 20 years since I was saved. Did things I am not proud of. I was hoping that God would somehow forgive me still and I can go to heaven.

However, thanks for confirming to me what I had suspected for a while - Hebrews is crystal clear and I am screwed. I am going to hell forever and have no second chance at being accepted back by God.

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Yep, little known fact: heaven will be empty. Except for God, of course.

tripleseven said:

I don't know. from Hebrews it looks like it says that if you get saved, then slip and leave the path for a time after getting saved, there is no chance of getting "re-saved"/forgiven ("re-crucifying" Christ) and you basically blew your chance (6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance).

I am missing something.

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It seems to be describing something a bit more than merely being saved .. as Jesus said: "many are called but few will be chosen", and James said "not many should be teachers, for we who teach know that we receive stricter judgement".. showing it's a degree of Messianic development that one has met the listed criteria (enlightenment, power), that although there are some as you say, "on the path", Jesus also said "make every effort to enter by the narrow gate .. many will try to enter, but will not be able to" - similarly to those whose seed fell upon the stony ground, that did not endure the heat of the day. But we expect that those whose seed fell upon good soil, producing a crop some 30, 60, 100 times .. they are those who Hebrews 6 describes - they are of Messiah, not merely of the saved (consider Galatians 4:19).

Neostarwcc said:

What I just don't understand about the Bible is how can the writer of Hebrews in one sentence say that salvation is once for all in Hebrews 10:10 and in Hebrews 9:28. Yet in Hebrews 6:4-6 they apparently state that you can lose your salvation by falling away. Hebrews 6:4-6 has been brought up by multiple people who say that you can lose your salvation. It's my opinion that this interpretation of Hebrews 6:4-6 isn't in fact scriptural since those who have a saving faith will never fall away because God's Holy Spirit works in that person to keep that person in the faith. So why the apparent contradiction in the Bible? And not just between multiple books but between the same Author? I just don't understand this can someone educate me please?

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Hebrews 10 and 9 are about how Jesus has done the sacrifice once and for all. The "for all" means atonement of sin is done once and for all that the Jews no longer need animal sacrifice each year in order to atone for their sin.

They are irrelevant to Hebrews 6.

The Bible can't contradict itself, so it's seems highly doubtful that Hebrews 6:4-6 is teaching that a Christian can lose their salvation. It seems to clearly indicate elsewhere that this is impossible. Ephesians 1:13-14 is a great example: "In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of his glory." That is, the biblical pattern seems to be that those who are sealed with the Spirit are born of heaven (born again) and will never lose their salvation. 1 John 3:9 says, "Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God." The Greek word used for seed is σπέρμα (sperma), which indicates that God has implanted His "seed" (the Holy Spirit) inside of you, and you are now born from above (John chapter 3). This new birth is irrevocable (Romans 11:29). You're His child now (Romans 8:14-17), and no one can snatch you away from Him (John 10:28-30) or separate you from His love (Romans 8:37-39). In the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit only temporarily came upon people, but it could be revoked (eg Saul - even David was afraid that God would revoke His Spirit from him (Psalm 51:11)). However, when Jesus came this changed. God told John the Baptist that, "Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit" (John 1:33). The Spirit came and permanently dwelled inside Jesus, and the pattern occurs for believers. The moment you say "yes" to Jesus, God sends His Spirit upon you and says to you, "This is my beloved son, whom I love!" just as He did for Jesus. Ultimately, I think the most plausible interpretation for Hebrews 6:4-6 is that, like others have said, it's referring to people who came close to accepting Christ, but never fully committed. The Bible seems to clearly teach that those who are born of the Spirit cannot lose it and are eternally secure. I think that if you know you have the Spirit, then you don't need to worry that you'll lose your salvation.

This salvation by works crap really bothers me. The idea is basically that, once you're saved, it's up to your efforts to maintain your salvation! And if you screw up badly enough, God will send you to hell, even though He loves you and you have been born again. It's a rebranding of Catholicism, where your good works have to outweigh your bad works to get into heaven. Gross.