yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
What does that mean actually ?Did Judas have a fighting chance?
Does ANYONE have a fighting chance ?
Do you know anyone who has a fighting chance ? (Scripturally , that is)
Upvote
0
What does that mean actually ?Did Judas have a fighting chance?
The passages I quoted had nothing to do with predestination but original sin and the bondage of the human will.Nothing to do with that. It has to do with seeing who Jesus was and how He was when here. Example: the woman at the well. Jesus went out of His way to give the woman a fair chance (and her town as a result also).
If she was pre destined to hell or heaven, why bother?
This does not address the subject.Ha. So He did die for all of us, I notice here a verse about the Rapture also...how we will not go through the wrath
This again has nothing to do with the subjectAh there it is again, talking about how enemies of God can be reconciled because of what He did!
It actually has God doing and we receiving. But again has nothing to do with the subject.Yes we chose to do that.
Again, God is doing and we are accepting, but once again you failed to address the subject.Yes we chose to do that.
Which is not the subject again.Even the old testament believers were saved by Christ...that He would one day come.
Nothing to do with that. It has to do with seeing who Jesus was and how He was when here. Example: the woman at the well. Jesus went out of His way to give the woman a fair chance (and her town as a result also).
If she was pre destined to hell or heaven, why bother?
This does not address the subject.Ha. So He did die for all of us, I notice here a verse about the Rapture also...how we will not go through the wrath
This again has nothing to do with the subjectAh there it is again, talking about how enemies of God can be reconciled because of what He did!
It actually has God doing and we receiving. But again has nothing to do with the subject.Yes we chose to do that.
Again, God is doing and we are accepting, but once again you failed to address the subject.Yes we chose to do that.
Which is not the subject again.Even the old testament believers were saved by Christ...that He would one day come.
No more than the rest of us.Sure. But they won’t chose to do so because they hate God. They are slaves to their nature.
The passages I quoted had nothing to do with predestination but original sin and the bondage of the human will.
The way we receive is free will choice.
It actually has God doing and we receiving. ..
Is it your strategy to answer off topic or subject when presented with an expository discussion?
oops.No more than the rest of us.
I think what was meant was 'did Jusdas have a chance to chose salvation, or was he created to be doomed to hell'What does that mean actually ?
Does ANYONE have a fighting chance ?
Do you know anyone who has a fighting chance ? (Scripturally , that is)
AFTER they CHOOSE to be redeemed only.oops.
The Redeemed Elect Ekklesia abiding IN JESUS are bond-slaves of RIGHTEOUSNESS, not of sin nor of the flesh nor of the world nor of the devil.
They too could come to the light and choose life.The rest of the world is still , lost. Slaves of the prince of the power of the air.
You asked how does He know. I pointed out He knows in advance but that does not mean He made us robots with no choice in advance.That’s a long way to go to not answer the question.
Exactly. That’s what Ephesians 2 says.No more than the rest of us.
You are avoiding the question. (And throwing in a straw man with the robots thing. Read the OP.).You asked how does He know. I pointed out He knows in advance but that does not mean He made us robots with no choice in advance.
That's not what Jesus said. He called Judas a devil before he even conceived of the notion of betraying Jesus.Right, one of them chose to reject Him, and yield to the devil.
Don't blame Jesus! He gave him every chance.
So God waited for Judas to make a decision before making sure the prophets wrote it down centuries before? Is this some sort of String Theory?In every crowd there may be a person that just will not make the right choices. God knew man was wicked, and what would happen. That does not mean He is evil, or that He made Judas reject Him.
I think you are confused on the various words and how they are used in Scriptures. First, God is Sovereign and predestines according to His will and purpose.You seem to have no real grasp at what is meant by predestination. Knowing about choices man will make is NOT the same as making man make those choices!
Yes.He sets us free.
It is in bondage to sin leading to death. Only God can make us alive in Christ Jesus.Our will is not so in bondage that we can't choose to get saved.
That's why I asked. Nothing escapes the Great I AM.What does that mean actually ?
Does ANYONE have a fighting chance ?
Do you know anyone who has a fighting chance ? (Scripturally , that is)
Yes, after we came to Him, believed in Him, and asked.Exactly. That’s what Ephesians 2 says.
1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-
3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. - Ephesians 2:1-3
Then there’s the next part. It’s the important part.
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- - Ephesians 2:4-5
We were regenerated by God (born again). We were dead, and He made us alive.
Who cares how God knows? He knows. Not up to you to guess how.You are avoiding the question. (And throwing in a straw man with the robots thing. Read the OP.).
How does He know in advance? By ordaining, or learning?
Says WHO!!!!? Judas probably already decided in his heart. Jesus knew the hearts of course.That's not what Jesus said. He called Judas a devil before he even conceived of the notion of betraying Jesus.
So God waited for Judas to make a decision before making sure the prophets wrote it down centuries before? Is this some sort of String Theory?
The verse that talks about predestination refers to, if I recall, the group of believers...right? Not to an individual.I think you are confused on the various words and how they are used in Scriptures. First, God is Sovereign and predestines according to His will and purpose.
Secondly, Predestine and Foreknowledge are not the same as can be seen in Acts 2:22-23 as they are used in the same sentence. It seems you are operating with: that God is omniscient (and He is) and as such He knows and sees all things outside and inside of time, space and matter. And as such both Jesus and the Father knew Judas would betray Jesus of his own bonded will as an unregenerate sinner. If so that is partially accurate but what have you left out?
Yes the plan of salvation involved dying for us. This was known and decided.God's will and purpose. I'll break it down as we are dealing with two separate words here:
this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death (Acts 2:23)
Yes, that God would come down and pay the price was determined.
No. He knew men were evil, and what would happen. He did not make them do it.Ok so here we have a clear definition that God ordained, predetermined, appointed to have Jesus (this Man) turned over to evil men nailing Him to the Cross. This is not, according to you, knowing about the choices of men. This is God's Sovereign will and purpose which will be done.
No doubt He organised the whole thing. That does not involve stopping man from making choices.Foreknowledge: Lexicon :: Strong's G4268 - prognosis
- foreknowledge
- forethought, pre-arrangement
That was the plan, those who accept Him were to be led and taught and made more like Jesus. That does not mean that the ones who were to be made that way did not choose to accept salvation.Foreknowledge is pretty straight forward but prognosis is only used twice in the Bible and in Acts 2:23 it is used in the same statement with horizo. Let's go to the root to see if there is some information for us:
STRONGS NT 4267: προγινώσκω
προγινώσκω; 2 aorist 3 person singular προέγνω; perfect passive participle προεγνωσμενος; to have knowledge of beforehand; to foreknow: namely, ταῦτα, 2 Peter 3:17, cf. 2 Peter 3:14, 16; τινα, Acts 26:5; οὕς προέγνω, whom he (God) foreknew, namely, that they would love him, or (with reference to what follows) whom he foreknew to be fit to be conformed to the likeness of his Son,
His plan includes and involves men choosing.Dad, do you see the distinction here in one verse (Acts 2:23)? What is communicated with Predestine is that (1) God's plan will happen the way he foreordained to happen. This is His Will and Purpose will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven. (2) Since God is omniscient He sees all things beforehand and what people will do based on the bondage of their human will good or bad.
He knew Peter would deny Him thrice, does that mean Jesus forced Peter to deny Him!?When the Apostle Peter says "this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death", he is telling us this was God's plan from before the foundations of the Earth, and He also knew every detail on how it would come into being.
That just means God knew his choice in advance.So in fact Judas was predetermined according to God's plan to betray Jesus.
God knew in advance. We do not have prophesy because God does it all. God prophesied about many dying in the Tribulation as martyrs, that does not mean He kills them or makes rabid men kill them!That is why we have prophecy of one who would betray Jesus.
I could go with that one, He knew what they would do.Now because God's Sovereign plan was predetermined, and the fact that God is omniscient and sees and knows all things, He also had Foreknowledge of all the bonded will choices of the evil men who laid hands on Christ and nailed Him to the Cross.
Nah, some guy overthinks it who really doesn't know what he is talking about. Choices are choices. Real choices. I don't need people guessing as to how and why God does things. Once we know Him, we have a pretty good idea...love!Compatibilism (also known as soft determinism), is the belief that God's predetermination and meticulous providence is "compatible" with voluntary choice. In light of Scripture, human choices are believed to be exercised voluntarily but the desires and circumstances that bring about these choices about occur through divine determinism (see Acts 2:23 & 4:27-28). It should be noted that this position is no less deterministic than hard determinism - be clear that neither soft nor hard determinism believes man has a [libertarian] free will. Our choices are only our choices because they are voluntary, not coerced. We do not make choices contrary to our desires or natures. Compatibilism, is directly contrary to libertarian free will. Therefore voluntary choice is not the freedom to choose otherwise, that is, without any influence, prior prejudice, inclination, or disposition. Voluntary does mean, however, the ability to choose what we want or desire most. The former view is known as contrary choice, the latter free agency. (Note: compatibilism denies that the will is free to choose otherwise, that is, free from the bondage of the corruption nature, for the unregenerate, and denies that the will is free from God's eternal decree.)
The way He does that is spelled out. We simply need to believe and ask. He does not make anyone alive unless they do.Yes.
It is in bondage to sin leading to death. Only God can make us alive in Christ Jesus.
Doing what He commanded, and asking and choosing Him is not merit. That is a sinned saved by grace!Why is it such a stumbling block for some to accept that Grace means just that...unmerited and from God?
When we come to Jesus and ask, He does that. When men reject and refuse He doesn't. In either case it is our choice that determines our fate, according to His plan and will.That He quickens we who are spiritually dead so we can respond freely to Him with a heart of flesh instead of a heart of stone.
As what usually happens in these threads, once Calvinism is mentioned, or someone who is Reformed posts something that seems Reformed, the arguments against Reformed Theology come out, and are usually emotionally driven straw man arguments.
This gets us nowhere because the Calvinists aren't really given the opportunity to defend what we believe, but have to spend time correcting the incorrect argument.
So here's the challenge. Below you will find links to some various documents that those who hold to Reformed Theology will agree on, at least soteriologically. The challenge to to quote from one of them, and then state why you believe it is incorrect. This will hopefully lead to a reasoned discussion. Any argument that does not start this way will be considered off topic. You are, however, free to start your own thread on that matter.
Here are your links.
The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (I would have used the Westminster Confession, but I'm Baptist )
Canons of Dordt
Heidelberg Catechism
Institutes of the Christian Religion, John Calvin, Christian Classics Books, Bible Study
You completely ignored the exegesis presented. Let me know when you want to seriously engage me.Says WHO!!!!? Judas probably already decided in his heart. Jesus knew the hearts of course.
He knew long before the prophets were even born. He knew He needed to die for men. He knew the hearts. He knew what men were capable of if the rejected Him. He knew about the spiritual forces in the world. None of this means that He made Judas chose what he chose!
The verse that talks about predestination refers to, if I recall, the group of believers...right? Not to an individual.
We shall see.
Yes the plan of salvation involved dying for us. This was known and decided.
Yes, that God would come down and pay the price was determined.
No. He knew men were evil, and what would happen. He did not make them do it.
No doubt He organised the whole thing. That does not involve stopping man from making choices.
That was the plan, those who accept Him were to be led and taught and made more like Jesus. That does not mean that the ones who were to be made that way did not choose to accept salvation.
His plan includes and involves men choosing.
He knew Peter would deny Him thrice, does that mean Jesus forced Peter to deny Him!?
He knew Lazarus was dead, does that mean He killed him? He knew most of the apostles would be martyred, does that mean He made the wicked men killing them do it?! No.
That just means God knew his choice in advance.
God knew in advance. We do not have prophesy because God does it all. God prophesied about many dying in the Tribulation as martyrs, that does not mean He kills them or makes rabid men kill them!
I could go with that one, He knew what they would do.
Nah, some guy overthinks it who really doesn't know what he is talking about. Choices are choices. Real choices. I don't need people guessing as to how and why God does things. Once we know Him, we have a pretty good idea...love!