If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

Lazarus Short · Dec 17, 2018

Wait, wait, wait! My Bad!! It is First Corinthians, chapter 15, not 5.

Sm412 · Dec 18, 2018

Many who have delved into biblical evidence for damnation, annihilation, and reconciliation, have found evidence for all three. And you people choose the worst one to believe in. Billions of people will be tortured for hundreds of trillions of years with no end by a "loving" God. Ironically, reconciliation was taught by much of the early Christian church. About the 5th century was when damnation made its way into the mainstream and permeated biblical translations. Bear in mind your English translations were scribed by those with damnation heavily in mind. What did the original Greek say?

Not to inject logic into an illogical debate about an illogical concept such as eternal hellfire, but let's put this into perspective. Let's say us humans were somehow given the power to sentence people to eternal torture for all the things you claim one may be sentenced to eternal torture for. Not being a Christian at time of death, for instance. So all Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, and pagans, we sent to be tortured for trillions upon trillions of years at time of death. What would the world think?

It would be an international humanitarian crisis 10,000x worse than any genocide in history. It would dwarf the holocaust, and anything the angel of death Josef Mengele could have dreamed of doing himself. The evil of such an act is simply immeasurable if done by us, and you tell me a loving God would outdo history's worst genocides in magnitude of suffering? There would be a world-ending war, with nuclear weapons dropped and billions of lives destroyed. The mayhem and destruction would be catastrophic. And you tell me God, of infinite love, would do this to a soul?

And you wonder why people persecute us. Jeez. Look at the ideas you're pushing onto the world. If that's what you want to preach, fine. "Believe what I believe or be tortured for eternity. God loves you! He doesn't WANT to torture you forever, but He just may have to!"

Nice message. Very moving. I'll go ahead and donate some of my hard earned $$$ to the Christian Universalist Association just to spite you. Have a nice day.

Pneuma3 · Dec 18, 2018

Sm412 said:
Many who have delved into biblical evidence for damnation, annihilation, and reconciliation, have found evidence for all three. And you people choose the worst one to believe in. Billions of people will be tortured for hundreds of trillions of years with no end by a "loving" God. Ironically, reconciliation was taught by much of the early Christian church. About the 5th century was when damnation made its way into the mainstream and permeated biblical translations. Bear in mind your English translations were scribed by those with damnation heavily in mind. What did the original Greek say?

Not to inject logic into an illogical debate about an illogical concept such as eternal hellfire, but let's put this into perspective. Let's say us humans were somehow given the power to sentence people to eternal torture for all the things you claim one may be sentenced to eternal torture for. Not being a Christian at time of death, for instance. So all Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, and pagans, we sent to be tortured for trillions upon trillions of years at time of death. What would the world think?

It would be an international humanitarian crisis 10,000x worse than any genocide in history. It would dwarf the holocaust, and anything the angel of death Josef Mengele could have dreamed of doing himself. The evil of such an act is simply immeasurable if done by us, and you tell me a loving God would outdo history's worst genocides in magnitude of suffering? There would be a world-ending war, with nuclear weapons dropped and billions of lives destroyed. The mayhem and destruction would be catastrophic. And you tell me God, of infinite love, would do this to a soul?

And you wonder why people persecute us. Jeez. Look at the ideas you're pushing onto the world. If that's what you want to preach, fine. "Believe what I believe or be tortured for eternity. God loves you! He doesn't WANT to torture you forever, but He just may have to!"

Nice message. Very moving. I'll go ahead and donate some of my hard earned $$$ to the Christian Universalist Association just to spite you. Have a nice day.

nicely said.

he-man · Dec 18, 2018

Lazarus Short said:
Why not quote the WHOLE chapter? All I see above is cherry-picking.

If the shoe fits, wear it.
1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Deuteronomy 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Choir Loft · Dec 18, 2018

Sm412 said:
Many who have delved into biblical evidence for damnation, annihilation, and reconciliation, have found evidence for all three. And you people choose the worst one to believe in. Billions of people will be tortured for hundreds of trillions of years with no end by a "loving" God. Ironically, reconciliation was taught by much of the early Christian church. About the 5th century was when damnation made its way into the mainstream and permeated biblical translations. Bear in mind your English translations were scribed by those with damnation heavily in mind. What did the original Greek say?

Not to inject logic into an illogical debate about an illogical concept such as eternal hellfire, but let's put this into perspective. Let's say us humans were somehow given the power to sentence people to eternal torture for all the things you claim one may be sentenced to eternal torture for. Not being a Christian at time of death, for instance. So all Jews, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, agnostics, and pagans, we sent to be tortured for trillions upon trillions of years at time of death. What would the world think?

It would be an international humanitarian crisis 10,000x worse than any genocide in history. It would dwarf the holocaust, and anything the angel of death Josef Mengele could have dreamed of doing himself. The evil of such an act is simply immeasurable if done by us, and you tell me a loving God would outdo history's worst genocides in magnitude of suffering? There would be a world-ending war, with nuclear weapons dropped and billions of lives destroyed. The mayhem and destruction would be catastrophic. And you tell me God, of infinite love, would do this to a soul?

And you wonder why people persecute us. Jeez. Look at the ideas you're pushing onto the world. If that's what you want to preach, fine. "Believe what I believe or be tortured for eternity. God loves you! He doesn't WANT to torture you forever, but He just may have to!"

Nice message. Very moving. I'll go ahead and donate some of my hard earned $$$ to the Christian Universalist Association just to spite you. Have a nice day.

St. Augustine (4th century) adopted the Greco-Roman idea of Hades and the afterlife into his 'Christian' philosophy. The Greeks adapted their pantheon of gods and demigods from the Egyptians who in turn invented the idea of the afterlife and chronicled it in their Book of the Dead. The Bible makes no assertion whatsoever that mankind has any part or quality that survives physical death.

My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal - Genesis 6:3a

It should be noted here that the primary reason for our current discussion and confusion about eternal torture vs. total annihilation is due to the adoption of St. Augustine and other church fathers of Greco-Roman philosophy. It isn't about scripture verses that we fire at each other like theological bullets.

The bane of the post-modern church in the twenty-first century is philosophy. Virtually all Xian books, magazine articles, sermons, movies, etc. are based wholly or in part upon some version of religious philosophy - not scripture. Scripture is used only to legitimize Xian philosophy. THIS IS WHY, Xian philosophy of the past justified such heinous acts as human slavery, genocide (of Native Americans & Jews), religious wars, and all the inhuman acts of recently recorded history.

Consider the average Sunday sermon. These sermons are always based upon Xian philosophy and utilize buzz words and slogans as well as a dusting of scripture verses to press their point. Most sermons are lectures on situational ethics. Listen closely the next time you hear one.

There are two types of sermon; scripture based & topical. A topical sermon can deliver any message, but is usually an ethical one rather than Bible based. A scripture based sermon uses Bible verses/text as an outline and more closely resembles a Bible college lecture. This type is usually quite dry. Preachers with an inadequate understanding of the Bible as a whole tend to shy away from this type because they can't expand intellectually upon the ideas presented in scripture. Thus their fall back position is a philosophical one.

The basic problem is that secular philosophy changes every ten to fifteen years. This change then challenges Xian preachers and writers to play catch-up. They must work feverishly to "make the gospel relevant" - meaning philosophically agreeable to society's philosophy.

The Law is permanent and does not change. It does not need to be made relevant because it's based upon unshakeable divine truth.

Ten years ago, the PHILOSOPHY of hellfire and brimstone wasn't seriously challenged in the church. Today, secular society demands a reckoning with this abhorrent ideology. The church MUST come up with an answer to the challenge or it will lose credibility.

I believe the answer is one that's been in front of us all along - total destruction without reprieve forever. It's a merciful death for a sinner, not everlasting punishment and totally in character with a loving God.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Lazarus Short · Dec 18, 2018

he-man said:
If the shoe fits, wear it.
1 Timothy 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1 Timothy 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

2 Timothy 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Jude 1:19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 5:13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

Deuteronomy 17:7 The hands of the witnesses shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterward the hands of all the people. So thou shalt put the evil away from among you.

Please see my post #681.

Sm412 · Dec 18, 2018

My thing is, if I were given the power to sentence others to eternal torture, would I use it? Even for the worst of the worst?

No, I would not. Out of compassion and mercy. Is that to say that I, a sinful mortal, am more compassionate and merciful than God, whose love dwarfs mine?

Certainly not. It can't be so.

ClementofA · Dec 18, 2018

he-man said:
2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That doesn't say they SHALL (future tense) never be able to know the truth.

Compare 1 Tim.2:4, Love Omnipotent desires/wills ALL come to the knowledge of the truth. Why say that if there are some who shall never attain to the truth?
Why will/desire something that will not happen, that is impossible for even Love Omnipotent to correct?

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved

he-man · Dec 19, 2018

ClementofA said:
That doesn't say they SHALL (future tense) never be able to know the truth.

Compare 1 Tim.2:4, Love Omnipotent desires/wills ALL come to the knowledge of the truth. Why say that if there are some who shall never attain to the truth?
Why will/desire something that will not happen, that is impossible for even Love Omnipotent to correct? Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6). Conclusion: All will be saved
1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved

Wrong, it does say "2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

LoveGodsWord said:
God's Word teaches the wages of sin is death for all those who reject the gift of God's dear son *ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-27. There is no salvation to those who reject the Gospel and continue in sin.

Agreed
"and Pharaoh called the wise men and the magicians; and Janis and Jambres, the magicians of the Egyptians, did so by the enchantments of their divinations.'' Numenius; the philosopher, speaks of Jannes and Jambres as Egyptian scribes, and famous for their skill in the magic art; and who opposed themselves to Moses when the Jews were driven out of Egypt [GILL]
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Sm412 · Dec 19, 2018

he-man said:
Wrong, it does say "2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
Agreed
"and Pharaoh called the wise men and the magicians; and Janis and Jambres, the magicians of the Egyptians, did so by the enchantments of their divinations.'' Numenius; the philosopher, speaks of Jannes and Jambres as Egyptian scribes, and famous for their skill in the magic art; and who opposed themselves to Moses when the Jews were driven out of Egypt [GILL]
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:10

It is you who has given into the doctrines of devils and traditions of men.

Lazarus Short · Dec 19, 2018

he-man said:
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Historically, this verse was written before the establishment of ECT as a church doctrine, but the passage of time has made it look like slam on Universalism. If we look at the fruit of the ECT doctrine, such as the Inquisition, burning of people as a foretaste of hell, and general terror of Christians, we can see what are the doctrines of devils.

Sm412 · Dec 19, 2018

Lazarus Short said:
Historically, this verse was written before the establishment of ECT as a church doctrine, but the passage of time has made it look like slam on Universalism. If we look at the fruit of the ECT doctrine, such as the Inquisition, burning of people as a foretaste of hell, and general terror of Christians, we can see what are the doctrines of devils.

I am very moved by your posts. Thank you so much. Would you be at all interested in staying in contact on this forum?

he-man · Dec 19, 2018

Sm412 said:
1 Timothy 4:10
It is you who has given into the doctrines of devils and traditions of men.

Sorry, but attacking me personally does not address the scriptures and your conscience must be cauterized and your instruction of fools is folly.

1Ti 4:12　 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Avoid deceit and read the Bible: 1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in deceit; having their conscience cauterized;
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Proverbs 16:22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Job 30:8 They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.

Sm412 · Dec 19, 2018

he-man said:
Sorry, but attacking me personally does not address the scriptures and your conscience must be cauterized and your instruction of fools is folly.

1Ti 4:12　 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

Avoid deceit and read the Bible: 1 Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in deceit; having their conscience cauterized;
1 Timothy 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

Proverbs 16:22 Understanding is a wellspring of life unto him that hath it: but the instruction of fools is folly.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Job 30:8 They were children of fools, yea, children of base men: they were viler than the earth.

These verses could just as easily apply to you.

he-man · Dec 19, 2018

Lazarus Short said:
Historically, this verse was written before the establishment of ECT as a church doctrine, but the passage of time has made it look like slam on Universalism. If we look at the fruit of the ECT doctrine, such as the Inquisition, burning of people as a foretaste of hell, and general terror of Christians, we can see what are the doctrines of devils.

1 Timothy 4:3　 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and
know the truth.

1 Timothy 4:1　 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits, and doctrines of a daemonic being;　

Lazarus Short · Dec 19, 2018

Sm412 said:
I am very moved by your posts. Thank you so much. Would you be at all interested in staying in contact on this forum?

Yes!

Hieronymus · Dec 19, 2018

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

YES.

ClementofA · Dec 19, 2018

he-man said:
Wrong, it does say "2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

Do you have a point or just like to post Scriptures without any comment & leave it to others to guess what your point is?

As usual & always another of your "proof texts" bites the dust:

2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

That doesn't say they SHALL (future tense) never be able to know the truth.

Compare 1 Tim.2:4, Love Omnipotent desires/wills ALL come to the knowledge of the truth. Why say that if there are some who shall never attain to the truth?
Why will/desire something that will not happen, that is impossible for even Love Omnipotent to correct?

Premise 1: God desires all be saved.... 1 Timothy 2:4: "[God] who desires(THELO) all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

Premise 2: God does all He desires(THELO, Strongs #2709) (Isa.55:11; Psa.115:3; 135:6).

Conclusion: All will be saved

1 Timothy 2:4 + God does all He desires = all will be saved

he-man said:
"2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."
2 Timothy 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2 Timothy 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.

8Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men of depraved mind, rejected in regard to the faith. 9But they will not make further progress; for their folly will be obvious to all, just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly was also. (NASB)

What will they not "make further progess" (v.9) in? Their "folly" (v.9) in deceiving others "just as Jannes’s and Jambres’s folly" (v.9).

Will they be eventually saved? Here's the answer:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."
Rom.8:20-22 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but (because of Him who subjected it, in expectation that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery
to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
Rom.11:15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Rom.11:26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The Deliverer will come from Zion; He will remove godlessness from Jacob.
Rom.11:32 For God has imprisoned everyone in disobedience so he could have mercy on everyone.
Rom.11:36 because out of Him, and through Him, and into Him are all; to Him is the glory -- into the eons. Amen.

Col.1:16 For by Him ***ALL*** was created that are in HEAVEN and that are on EARTH, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers.
All was created through Him and for Him.
20 and by Him to reconcile ***ALL*** to Himself, by Him, whether on EARTH or in HEAVEN, having made peace through the blood of His cross.

Phil.2:9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that IN the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.
1 Cor.15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
1 Cor.15:28 Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects ALL to Him, that God may be All in ALL.)
2 Cor.5:14 For the love of Christ compels us, having concluded this, that One has died for all, therefore all have died.
2 Cor.5:18,19 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to Himself by Jesus Christ and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation, to wit, that God was in Christ,
reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them, and hath committed unto us the Word of reconciliation.

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for the eons of the eons.
Rev. 15:4 Who will not fear you, Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous deeds have been revealed."
Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
Rev. 21:5 And the one sitting on the throne said, "Look, I am making everything new!" And then he said to me, "Write this down, for what I tell you is trustworthy and true."

ClementofA · Dec 19, 2018

he-man said:
Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

The "end" (i.e. outcome) of jumping out of an airplane at high altitude without a parachute is death. Does that mean (1) the person's body dies or does it mean they will (2) be tortured forever or (3) endlessly annihilated out of existence? Answer: #1 is correct & #2 & #3 are wrong. That verse does not support your anti Scriptural universalism error. As always another lame attempt to refute Biblical universalism bites the dust.

he-man · Dec 20, 2018

ClementofA said:
Do you have a point or just like to post Scriptures without any comment & leave it to others to guess what your point is?

Wrong, it does say "2 Timothy 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."

If endless conscious torments were true, is God a monster?

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