Prewrath?

iamlamad

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4. At an unknown day and hour during the second half of the seven-year period, the Antichrist’s great tribulation will be cut short by the Revelation of Christ to resurrect and rapture God’s people, and this will be followed immediately by the day of the Lord’s wrath executed upon the ungodly.

5. On the same day the rapture happens, the onset of the day of the Lord’s wrath takes place, just as it was in the days of Noah and Lot (Luke 17:22–37; cf. 2 Thess 1:5–10).
This is MYTH, created in the imagination of man, NOT from scripture.
The truth is, the days of GT will be cut short by God pouring out the vials of His wrath.

Just WHERE in Revelation are those days of GT? If we read and understand Rev. 14, that is God warning people NOT to accept the mark of the Beast. Therefore, common sense tells us the mark is not yet being enforced. So the days of great tribulation (GT) are not until AFTER chapter 14. Then in chapter 15 we see the beheaded BEGIN to show up in heaven. In other words, in the mind of God and in the vision shown to John, the days of GT will take place in chapters 15 and 16, NOT in the seals are prewrath theory places them.

The days of GT then are in chapters 15 and 16, the 70th week ENDS at the 7th vial, but Jesus does not return! The events of chapters 17 & 18 will take place AFTER the "trib" or 70th week, and BEFORE Jesus returns. Then in chapter 19, the marriage and supper will take place BEFORE Jesus returns. (At this time, the days of GT being cut short is history)

Finally, in chapter 19, Jesus returns to earth to fight the battle of Armageddon - some UNKNOWN time after the 70th week has finished.

Don't forget: the Day of the Lord began before the 70th week began! All of these events mentioned, plus the trumpet judgments and vial judgments - the ENTIRE 70th week - come INSIDE the Day of the Lord.
 
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iamlamad

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6. The second coming (parousia) is not a simple (instantaneous) event. The second coming is a complex-whole event containing various purposes of God, beginning with the Revelation of Christ in the sky displaying his Shekinah glory and power to the whole world, and resurrecting and rapturing God’s people, followed by the day of the Lord’s judgments upon the ungodly and Antichrist’s kingdom, restoring Israel to salvation, and culminating in Christ’s earthly reign.
This is almost completely MYTH. Don't take my word, go READ IT: His coming in power, actually his THIRD (3rd) coming to the battle of Armageddon, is a single and very simple event. Jesus descends, with the armies of heaven with Him, and the battle is over almost before it begins.

However, 7 plus years PREVIOUS to this coming, Jesus comes to the air and calls up His church - a pretrib rapture.
7. Although Armageddon is an element within the complex-whole second coming, Armageddon does not initiate the second coming; instead, the second coming begins between the sixth and seventh seal.
His second (2nd) coming will be His coming to the clouds to call up the church.
8. The resurrection and rapture happens between the opening of the sixth seal and the seventh seal.
No, it happens just BEFORE the 6th seal. The 6th seal begins His wrath - so the rapture must come BEFORE the 6th seal. The great earthquake at the 6th seal is Paul's "sudden destruction."
9. The first six seals are not part of the day of the Lord’s wrath. The first six seals are conditional events that must happen before Christ’s return.
More MYTH: the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended, and are CHURCH AGE events. The rapture - just before the 6th seal - ENDS the church age, and the DAy of the Lord begins.
Seal 1: the Gospel going forth
Seals 2-4: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age: they are told they must wait for the last one before judgment comes: God knows the total number.
10. The sixth seal signals the impending day of the Lord’s wrath as recorded in Joel 2:30–31; Matthew 24:29; Luke 21:25–26; Mark 13:23–25; and Revelation 6:12–17.
The earthquake at the 6th seal BEGINS God's wrath.
11. The seventh seal pronounces the day of the Lord’s wrath.
The 7th seal begins the 70th week of Daniel.
12. The trumpets, bowls, and Armageddon contain and execute the day of the Lord’s wrath.
TRUTH!
13. The trumpets, bowls, and Armageddon will not occur before the seventh seal is opened.
Why not just say they come after the 7th seal that allows THE BOOK to be opened - containing the 70th week events.
14. Paul’s “last trumpet” (1 Cor 15:52) is not identified as the seventh trumpet judgment in the book of Revelation.
Complete MYTH. Paul's "last trump" is the last of a DIFFERENT SERIES of trumpets - without a doubt, the last long trumpet blast that ends the feast of trumpets.
15. Christ’s return to resurrect and rapture God’s people is not imminent (“any moment”), since discernible prophesied events must happen first (e.g., the Antichrist’s revelation and his ensuing great tribulation; the apostasy; coming of Elijah; and a cluster of discernible celestial events). Christ can return in any generation of the Church.
Again, total and complete MYTH. He could come TOMORROW or tonight.
 
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BABerean2

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MYTH: the first five seals were opened as soon as Jesus ascended, and are CHURCH AGE events. The rapture - just before the 6th seal - ENDS the church age, and the DAy of the Lord begins.
Seal 1: the Gospel going forth
Seals 2-4: to represent the devil's attempts to stop the advance of the gospel.
Seal 5: the martyrs of the church age: they are told they must wait for the last one before judgment comes: God knows the total number.
The earthquake at the 6th seal BEGINS God's wrath.

The seals book is a summary of the Book of Revelation.
Christ opened the seals one at a time and showed John future events.
All of the seals were opened by Christ during the first century. Otherwise, John would not have heard or seen those future events.


Rev 6:1 Now I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals; and I heard one of the four living creatures saying with a voice like thunder, "Come and see."
Rev 6:2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse. He who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him, and he went out conquering and to conquer.
Rev 6:3 When He opened the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, "Come and see."
Rev 6:4 Another horse, fiery red, went out. And it was granted to the one who sat on it to take peace from the earth, and that people should kill one another; and there was given to him a great sword.
Rev 6:5 When He opened the third seal, I heard the third living creature say, "Come and see." So I looked, and behold, a black horse, and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four living creatures saying, "A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine."
Rev 6:7 When He opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, "Come and see."
Rev 6:8 So I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him who sat on it was Death, and Hades followed with him. And power was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword, with hunger, with death, and by the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
Rev 6:11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
Rev 6:12 I looked when He opened the sixth seal, and behold, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became like blood.
Rev 6:13 And the stars of heaven fell to the earth, as a fig tree drops its late figs when it is shaken by a mighty wind.
Rev 6:14 Then the sky receded as a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island was moved out of its place.
Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, the great men, the rich men, the commanders, the mighty men, every slave and every free man, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
Rev 6:17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

.
 
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keras

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Always remember: ANY theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology of Revelation is immediately suspect - and WILL BE proven wrong.
So you are wrong, as you have a 'rapture to heaven', with the Church seen, as you think- in heaven: Revelation 7:9.
But this is undeniably AFTER the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath, as Revelation 7:1 says.
The vast multitude, of Revelation 7:9-14 are obviously every faithful Christian. They are on earth, in Jerusalem, they wave palm branches, as Jesus reveals Himself to them. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Revelation 14:1
Is "prewrath" legit? If someone said, "the rapture of the church will be before God's wrath" I would agree, 100%. God is not going to set any appointments for us with His wrath.
Many scriptures plainly say the God will protect His own during His wrath, NOT remove them. 1 Corinthians 10:13, Isaiah 41:13
 
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iamlamad

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So you are wrong, as you have a 'rapture to heaven', with the Church seen, as you think- in heaven: Revelation 7:9.
But this is undeniably AFTER the Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's wrath, as Revelation 7:1 says.
The vast multitude, of Revelation 7:9-14 are obviously every faithful Christian. They are on earth, in Jerusalem, they wave palm branches, as Jesus reveals Himself to them. 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10, Revelation 14:1

Many scriptures plainly say the God will protect His own during His wrath, NOT remove them. 1 Corinthians 10:13, Isaiah 41:13
It's very simple: if you wish to set your own appointment with God's wrath, I am sure God will allow it. Since you don't want to go to heaven, I think God will leave you behind. The rest of us will go and enjoy the 7 years from heaven. Enjoy the week of years down here - if you survive.
 
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keras

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It's very simple: if you wish to set your own appointment with God's wrath, I am sure God will allow it. Since you don't want to go to heaven, I think God will leave you behind. The rest of us will go and enjoy the 7 years from heaven. Enjoy the week of years down here - if you survive.
The usual unpleasant response of a 'rapture' sucker.
Have you had any harp lessons yet?
Get this: wanting to escape the wrath and trials to come disqualifies you as a son of God. Hebrews 12:8 It is that serious! Repent of and renounce your false beliefs before its too late and you're left looking silly with your arms raised and wondering why you're still on earth.

I look forward those last 7 years, because the first half will be peaceful and for those who keep their trust in the Lord, the second half will be being looked after in a place of safety. Revelation 12:14
 
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iamlamad

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The usual unpleasant response of a 'rapture' sucker.
Have you had any harp lessons yet?
Get this: wanting to escape the wrath and trials to come disqualifies you as a son of God. Hebrews 12:8 It is that serious! Repent of and renounce your false beliefs before its too late and you're left looking silly with your arms raised and wondering why you're still on earth.

I look forward those last 7 years, because the first half will be peaceful and for those who keep their trust in the Lord, the second half will be being looked after in a place of safety. Revelation 12:14
On the contrary, God, not wishing to subject His own family to His wrath has promised us He will set no appointments. Most believers accept that and look forward to escaping what is coming.

You, on the other hand, refuse to believe His words.

It is OK; you can spend the 7 years here on earth suffering both God's wrath and Satan's wrath. I really do hope that works out for you - but reading chapter 13, I doubt seriously if it will. It is written - the remnant of the saints will be overcome.

Sorry, but it seems you don't understand the difference between how God prunes those that are His, so they bear more fruit, versus how God will treat those who hate Him. He does not hate His church! He loves His church. But just as a good, loving father on earth chastises his children so they grow up being wise, so God chastises His children so they learn to be like Him.

Don't ever compare God's loving chastisement of His own, with His punishment of a world who refuses to repent!

Again you show lack of understanding: the trumpet judgments will come during the first half of the week. God's wrath will be in each of them. It is not going to be a picnic then. Before the trumpets are over, more than 1/3 of earth's population will be gone.

You imagine there will be a place of safety during the last half. Yet, God tells us that the remnant of saints will be overcome. How can you compare "overcome" with "safety?" The ONLY place of safety written in Scripture will be for the Jews that flee from Judea southwest into the wilderness - maybe to Petra.

You are so good with much of the end times scriptures: how did you get so far off when it comes to the rapture?
 
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keras

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You are so good with much of the end times scriptures: how did you get so far off when it comes to the rapture?
Because such a thing cannot be found in the Bible.
The theory of a rapture removal of the Church, cannot be supported by the Bible.
Saying we are not appointed to God's wrath, means you ignore the dozens of verses that say God will protect His own through His wrath.
Note in Ezekiel 21:4, He will do away with both the wicked and the righteous Jews on the Lord's Day of wrath by fire from the sun. Ezekiel 20:45-48, Isaiah 30:26
 
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iamlamad

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Because such a thing cannot be found in the Bible.
The theory of a rapture removal of the Church, cannot be supported by the Bible.
Saying we are not appointed to God's wrath, means you ignore the dozens of verses that say God will protect His own through His wrath.
Note in Ezekiel 21:4, He will do away with both the wicked and the righteous Jews on the Lord's Day of wrath by fire from the sun. Ezekiel 20:45-48, Isaiah 30:26
Correction: You cannot find scriptural support. Of course the rapture to heaven can be found in scripture. You have a problem with preconceived glasses that prevent you from reading properly. Untold millions of believers read and understand we go to heaven with no problems. The scriptures are there for all to read.
There are billions of believers in heaven today. The spirit and soul of every believer who has died is in heaven today. Believe it, for it is truth.
 
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keras

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Untold millions of believers read and understand we go to heaven with no problems. The scriptures are there for all to read.
Untold millions are deceived and have believed false teachings. Including you, but you will be judged more severely for promoting lies. James 3:1

Do not tell me that I can't see Bible truth. I have intensively studied and written hundreds of articles on the Words of the prophets and what God really does Plan for His people. There is just no scripture that says we go to heaven; alive or dead. Only the souls of the martyrs are kept there.
We have work to do on earth and to 'escape' from it is not an option.
 
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iamlamad

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Untold millions are deceived and have believed false teachings. Including you, but you will be judged more severely for promoting lies. James 3:1

Do not tell me that I can't see Bible truth. I have intensively studied and written hundreds of articles on the Words of the prophets and what God really does Plan for His people. There is just no scripture that says we go to heaven; alive or dead. Only the souls of the martyrs are kept there.
We have work to do on earth and to 'escape' from it is not an option.
If you have written your theory that we don't go to heaven in hundreds of articles, then you have promoted FALSE DOCTRINE in hundreds of articles. I wonder how that will work out for you in the end?

You are having a huge problem telling truth from deception. OF COURSE Believers go to heaven. But since you deny it, it is very likely God will not let you see it. There IS scripture, but you are blind to it. But no problem: millions will be blocked from seeing heaven. You will just be one more.

The truth is, once the rapture takes place, the work of the Bride is OVER, FINISHED. However, for the millions left behind that will turn to God, they will continue on until they are overcome. You will be one of those who are left behind. There is no way God will allow you to see heaven when you deny you will go there. The rest of the bride will go there - but you won't. Our beliefs have consequences.

The truth is, the moment a saint dies, they are escorted into heaven. Paul TOLD us this - but you can't believe Paul. What you WRITE is proof that you cannot see bible truth. No one has to tell you. It is obvious to any who read what you write.

It is OK. I am not saying you won't ever see heaven, just that you will not go up in the rapture that will end in heaven. When you are overcome and are put to death, then, if you are born again, your spirit man will be taken to heaven. You will be a martyr. At that time, we will greet you as you arrive.

What a pity! You could arrive sooner and full of joy, keeping your head intact.
 
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keras

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The truth is, the moment a saint dies, they are escorted into heaven. Paul TOLD us this - but you can't believe Paul. What you WRITE is proof that you cannot see bible truth. No one has to tell you. It is obvious to any who read what you write.
Peter at the pearly Gates of heaven. Another fairy tale.
Where is the verse that says Christians go to heaven at their death?

I looked at you posts; #201, #202, #206, #208, #210 and #212, NONE of them have any scriptural support for your fixed opinions and false beliefs.
The Moderators here should kick you off for posting such unscriptural nonsense.
 
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iamlamad

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Peter at the pearly Gates of heaven. Another fairy tale.
Where is the verse that says Christians go to heaven at their death?

I looked at you posts; #201, #202, #206, #208, #210 and #212, NONE of them have any scriptural support for your fixed opinions and false beliefs.
The Moderators here should kick you off for posting such unscriptural nonsense.
Without a doubt you KNOW the scriptures. The problem is, you don't believe them.

Please don't tell me you believe in soul sleep! Paul said when one is absent from the body - that is when their spirit man or woman leaves the body, they are then (very soon after) present with the Lord. That would be IN HEAVEN.

Have you buried your head in the sand? MANY people have been to heaven and were sent back, because someone prayed. There are stacks of books now of personal testimonies. Their testimony agrees with Paul. When a believe dies, their spirit goes to heaven.

Notice what Paul said about those that have passed on:
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better.
Then there is the story of the rich man and Lazarus.

Then Hebrews 12:
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to jGod, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Then there are the martyrs of the church age in seal 5: they are in heaven.

Yes, when Jesus comes for His saints, He will bring WITH HIM the spirits of all the believers who have passed on. They (the spirits) will meet with their bodies and they will be whole again. This is what 99.99% of the church believes.

Your fairy tales are scriptural truth. However, I have confidence you are well aware of these scriptures and have already convinced yourself they really don't say what the majority of the church believes they say.
 
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keras

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Without a doubt you KNOW the scriptures. The problem is, you don't believe them.
Oh, I believe the scriptures all right!
What I don't believe is people who say things will happen that are not in the Bible.
Please don't tell me you believe in soul sleep! Paul said when one is absent from the body - that is when their spirit man or woman leaves the body, they are then (very soon after) present with the Lord. That would be IN HEAVEN.
When a person dies, they know nothing, Eccl 9:5-6, until they are awakened at the Great White Throne Judgment. They never go to heaven, this idea is refuted by Lazarus, who died and Jesus brought him back to life, but He said he would only be raised to immortality at the last day.
Have you buried your head in the sand? MANY people have been to heaven and were sent back, because someone prayed. There are stacks of books now of personal testimonies. Their testimony agrees with Paul. When a believe dies, their spirit goes to heaven.
I have seem some of those testimonies. I believe them to be of Satanic origin. Jesus said that Satan could pretend to be an angel of light.
Yes, the dead persons spirit/soul returns to the One who made it. There is no consciousness' for them, excepting for the Tribulation martyrs, who are given special permission to cry out at times. Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 19:1-8
have already convinced yourself they really don't say what the majority of the church believes they say.
If I have the truth, then I am in the majority!
Can you or anyone define exactly what the majority of the Church believes?
No; because there is such a variety of theories, ideas, doctrines and plain error out there, we cannot settle on any issue.
Your pre-trib belief, for example, is just one of many theories of when a supposed 'rapture to heaven' may take place. That is the huge joke about the rapture belief, you don't discuss whether it will happen, only fight over when!


BTW, I won't give up, so if you want to keep on getting smacked down, carry on!
 
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BABerean2

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When a person dies, they know nothing, Eccl 9:5-6, until they are awakened at the Great White Throne Judgment.

The following verses kill the doctrine of "soul sleep".


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:




1 Thessalonians 4:14

(CJB) do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died.

(ESV) For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

(Geneva) For if we beleeue that Iesus is dead, and is risen, euen so them which sleepe in Iesus, will God bring with him.

(Greek NT TR) ει γαρ πιστευομεν οτι ιησους απεθανεν και ανεστη ουτως και ο θεος τους κοιμηθεντας δια του ιησου αξει συν αυτω

(GW) We believe that Jesus died and came back to life. We also believe that, through Jesus, God will bring back those who have died. They will come back with Jesus.

(LITV-TSP) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

(KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(KJV+) ForG1063 ifG1487 we believeG4100 thatG3754 JesusG2424 diedG599 andG2532 rose again,G450 even soG3779 them also which sleepG2837 G2532 inG1223 JesusG2424 will GodG2316 bringG71 withG4862 him.G846

(NKJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

.

(YLT) for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

.
 
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Douggg

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The seals book is a summary of the Book of Revelation.
Christ opened the seals one at a time and showed John future events.
All of the seals were opened by Christ during the first century. Otherwise, John would not have heard or seen those future events.
This is one time we agree.
 
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iamlamad

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Oh, I believe the scriptures all right!
What I don't believe is people who say things will happen that are not in the Bible.

When a person dies, they know nothing, Eccl 9:5-6, until they are awakened at the Great White Throne Judgment. They never go to heaven, this idea is refuted by Lazarus, who died and Jesus brought him back to life, but He said he would only be raised to immortality at the last day.

I have seem some of those testimonies. I believe them to be of Satanic origin. Jesus said that Satan could pretend to be an angel of light.
Yes, the dead persons spirit/soul returns to the One who made it. There is no consciousness' for them, excepting for the Tribulation martyrs, who are given special permission to cry out at times. Revelation 6:9-11, Revelation 19:1-8

If I have the truth, then I am in the majority!
Can you or anyone define exactly what the majority of the Church believes?
No; because there is such a variety of theories, ideas, doctrines and plain error out there, we cannot settle on any issue.
Your pre-trib belief, for example, is just one of many theories of when a supposed 'rapture to heaven' may take place. That is the huge joke about the rapture belief, you don't discuss whether it will happen, only fight over when!


BTW, I won't give up, so if you want to keep on getting smacked down, carry on!
So you put more weight on a verse in Ecclesiastes than you put on a verse in the New Testament. ANY professor in ANY bible school would tell you that is a grave mistake. Doctrine created from the Old Testament must be understood from the New Testament.

Paul disagreed with your verse in The Old. I believe Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit and close to God, while you believe what Solomon wrote when far away from God. Now I understand your wacky doctrine.

Why not believe the story of the rich man and Lazarus - straight from the mouth of our Savior, Jesus Christ? He was GOD HIMSELF. I think you can believe Jesus above Solomon when he was away from God.

Do you know know the difference in those who were brought back to life in the bible, as in "raised from the dead" but only back to their natural body, versus when people are raised to their new resurrection body? We are talking a HUGE difference. Lazarus died again. Jesus only returned His spirit from Hades back to his natural body. But on the last day, Lazarus will most certainly get his resurrection body. Soul sleep is a doctrine of devils. I am amazed you fell for it.

AGain you take an Old Treatment verse to build doctrine while ignoring the New Testament that gives us a much clearer picture.

What was it, really, that God breathed into Adam? It was the life giving SPIRIT. Human beings are spirit beings, possessing a soul, which is our mind, will, emotions and affections, but living for now in a flesh and blood body. When a human dies, the spirit (with the soul) just slips out of the body like taking off an overcoat. The spirit with the soul keeps right on thinking and remembering.

What did Abraham say to the rich man: "REMEMBER..." He, the rich man, could see, could think and could remember. So much for your soul sleep!

Again you miss it! You are batting ZERO so far, missing it on every sentence. The 5th seal represents CHURCH AGE martyrs, not 70th week martyrs. I suggest your throw all this soul sleep doctrine into the trash and start over, BELIEVING what Jesus said, and what Paul said.
 
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iamlamad

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The following verses kill the doctrine of "soul sleep".


Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Rev_6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:




1 Thessalonians 4:14

(CJB) do who have nothing to hope for. For since we believe that Yeshua died and rose again, we also believe that in the same way God, through Yeshua, will take with him those who have died.

(ESV) For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep.

(Geneva) For if we beleeue that Iesus is dead, and is risen, euen so them which sleepe in Iesus, will God bring with him.

(Greek NT TR) ει γαρ πιστευομεν οτι ιησους απεθανεν και ανεστη ουτως και ο θεος τους κοιμηθεντας δια του ιησου αξει συν αυτω

(GW) We believe that Jesus died and came back to life. We also believe that, through Jesus, God will bring back those who have died. They will come back with Jesus.

(LITV-TSP) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him all those who have fallen asleep through Jesus.

(KJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

(KJV+) ForG1063 ifG1487 we believeG4100 thatG3754 JesusG2424 diedG599 andG2532 rose again,G450 even soG3779 them also which sleepG2837 G2532 inG1223 JesusG2424 will GodG2316 bringG71 withG4862 him.G846

(NKJV) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

.

(YLT) for if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also God those asleep through Jesus he will bring with him,

.
Good post, BA. But where is your video?
 
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keras

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So you put more weight on a verse in Ecclesiastes than you put on a verse in the New Testament. ANY professor in ANY bible school would tell you that is a grave mistake. Doctrine created from the Old Testament must be understood from the New Testament.
I see the OT and the NT in perfect alignment.
Nowhere does the NT say living people or their soul/spirits are consciously in heaven.
Paul disagreed with your verse in The Old. I believe Paul, filled with the Holy Spirit and close to God, while you believe what Solomon wrote when far away from God. Now I understand your wacky doctrine.
More rude comments and a total lack of scriptural support for your beliefs.
Other verses confirm that when a person dies they have no consciousness, until they stand before God at the GWT Judgment. Job 14:10-14, Psalms 22:29,
Psalms 49:10-13....Such is the fate of the foolish and those who approve of their teachings.
You demonstrate foolishness, if you think the story of Abraham and the rich man is an actual true story. It is just a homily, a parable, told by Jesus as a warning that Salvation is now; too late when you are dead.
The 5th seal represents CHURCH AGE martyrs, not 70th week martyrs.
Quite right, just as I said; all the martyrs from Stephen until now.
But Revelation 20:4 is clear, that only the GT martyrs will be brought back to life at Jesus' Return.
 
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