Minimum Wage Unions: Car wash in New York City = Failure

Andrew77 · Dec 7, 2018

Sparagmos said:
https://www.princeton.edu/~davidlee/wp/unionbf.pdf

The study above addresses the question of whether unions cause businesses to close.

Despite the clear theoretical presumption and strong anecdotal evidence, the magnitude of the effect of unions on establishment or firm survival is uncertain. One limiting factor is the absence of large, representative data sets that track establishments over time and provide information on union status.

From your own citation.

In short..... their research didn't come up with a clear conclusion because of a lack of data.

Regardless, I think we can simply look at statistical facts.....

US Steel, all Unionized, was formerly the dominate steel supplier. Now Nucor, all non-union, is the dominate steel supplier.

I suppose it could all be coincidence, but it's hard to make that assumption when union membership has not just dropped as a percent of all workers, but drop in total numbers, but almost half.

Sparagmos · Dec 7, 2018

Andrew77 said:
No I'm not. There was a report that directly linked the coal miners unions, to customers switching to oil for home heating. Direct connection between striking employees, and customers choosing alternative choices, which results in companies laying off thousands of coal miners. Not making this up.

No, I don't think Unions generally hope to destroy the company. But I think you would agree that Unions are inherently adversarial. Would you not agree with this?

DNAinfo and Gothamist Are Shut Down After Vote to Unionize
Company closes doors after unionization
Dura-Line Plant Closing Was Economic Move, Not Anti-Union
In Washington, union rips Harley-Davidson for closing Kansas City plant while opening in Thailand
You asked, we answered: Why is New Era Cap closing its Derby plant?

What company?

I actually drive by plants that were former union, closed, and reopened as non-union plants.

It think the problem is that a plant can be unionized in the 1980s, and close in the 2010s, and people do not realize there is a connection.

But you can usually tell there is a connection when the plant reopens a year or two later, as a non-union plant.

If the problem was the economics of the business were no longer profitable, and not because of unions.... then it would not re-open as a non-union plant.

Hostess being the most obvious.

Laid-off UAW workers galled that they can't get jobs at non-union Kia plant

This is a clue.... Ford and GM unionized plants both close, while Kia is opening a plant, but... not for Union workers. So it's not profitable to build cars there? Or not profitable for Unions to work there?

GM’s “Northern Strategy”: Go Non-Union | Labor Notes

The “reinvention” of the “New GM” has begun with the opening of a lithium-ion battery plant in Brownstown, Michigan, near Detroit. The event was remarkable not only because the Brownstown plant signals GM’s return to the production of an electric vehicle but also because, for the first time in about 30 years, GM has opened a non-union plant in the U.S.

I could go on, and list more and more examples... but really.... I think I made my point.

No, you have listed a handful of anecdotes, most of which have a whole other side. I posted a Princeton study, that includes thousands of anecdotes. You actually used coal as an example (?!) and keep talking of plants. We all know manufacturing and coal are nearly dead in the US! The anti-coal lobby hardly originated with unions, LOL. There is no way the U.S can compete in the global manufacturing market.

Please address the industries where unionism is growing - service sector, education, retail, etc. Since a vast majority of unionized workplaces don’t “shut down,” and do raise wages and benefits, then unions do far more good than bad.

Of course unions are adversarial. The boss and the worker do not have the same interests. It is the most adversarial before the union is organized, it’s just that the workers have no power except to grumble and complain. When the bosses treat the workers well, there is no need for a union.

Sparagmos · Dec 7, 2018

Andrew77 said:
1. I don't understand why that matters. Whether the company makes a ton of profit, or a little profit, doesn't mean anything to me. Any argument based on "they have more money", is an argument based on greed and envy, and that is evil and wrong. It is this idea that "they have more.... so therefore I should have more".

And that simply isn't true. No one is somehow 'owed' more, simply because someone else has more. You are owed, how much you agree to work for. That's it.

2. I don't know if what you said is all that true. So back in the late 1990s, when Dave Thomas was still around, I was working at Wendy's. An article came out talking about how Wendy's was pulling in record profits. First, I never once thought that somehow meant I was due more money.....

However, the other workers started all standing around talking about how Wendy's had all this money, and therefore they were owed a larger pay check. The irony was, I was good friends with the manager, and that store had actually just posted a loss the prior month.

Just because the company is huge and making billions, doesn't mean your specific plant is. Your plant could be just barely scraping by. The McDonald's job I had back in high school, that store closed a year after I quit. They really didn't have money to pay employees more, even if McDonald's corporate was doing well.

So when you say they can afford to pay more... maybe.... maybe not. You don't know how well that particular plant is doing.

you keep repeating something that is untrue: that unions cause businesses to close. A few examples (at least one of which has been debunked) means that 99.99% of union workplaces don’t close down due to unionism.

No hon, it isn't debunked. You made a claim, that you can't prove or backup, that is obviously not true. If the plant was extremely profitable, the original owners would have never sold it, and the investment company would have kept it running, or at a minimum sold it off to someone else. They couldn't sell it off to someone else, because no one else wanted it. They had no choice but to close the plant. And since the plant reopened as a non-union plant, clearly that was the problem, or it never would have re-opened. No darling, you did not debunk it.

Same with the car wash in the video. If it was profitable, the owners would never have sold it. If it was profitable the investor who bought it, would have kept it open, or a minimum they would have sold it again to someone else. They couldn't sell it again, because no one wanted it. Why did no one want it? Because it wasn't profitable.

Corporations have bought off the Republican Party and by passing “right to work”

You do not have the right to tell me that I must be part of your union, in order to work for my living.

I am not your slave. I don't owe you anything. You are allowed to have your opinions, but if you are going to hate on Republicans because they stand for the rights of working people, then that would put you in the wrong.

You should reconsider your position on this.

Regarding 1) I was answering your question about where the money comes from. That’s why it was relevant. I bargain union contracts for a living and we would NEVER ask for something that woukd incentivize the business to close. We do detailed cost analysis and work closely with employers on this. We absolutely know “how well they are doing.” The workers at the hotel I worked at, where housekeepers make $16/hr and have a pension and Cadillac health insurance, has been union for over 40 years. The hotel still makes money hand over fist and just invested millions of dollars in renovations. The union will always renegotiate if business conditions change. We’re not stupid. And now you are saying that even if the employer does have the money, they shouldn’t share the profits with employees. I guess you can think that and keep making poverty wages if it works for you.

Of course I know that a company’s overall profit is not the same as one locations profit. I do this for a living, remember?

I posted a link that backs up my claim. Not anecdotes.

You don’t have to join a union to work for a living. You can just get a non-union job. It can be hard to get a job at the businesses I represent. They are coveted jobs in the industry because they are more lucrative and attract top notch workers. Much easier to get a non-union job.

I am seeing that you are philosophically anti-union, and that is fine. I’ll pay more stats to back up my claims.

Calling me “hon” and “darling” is inappropriate, and you know it. Why did you do that?

Sparagmos · Dec 7, 2018

Andrew77 said:
Despite the clear theoretical presumption and strong anecdotal evidence, the magnitude of the effect of unions on establishment or firm survival is uncertain. One limiting factor is the absence of large, representative data sets that track establishments over time and provide information on union status.

From your own citation.

In short..... their research didn't come up with a clear conclusion because of a lack of data.

Regardless, I think we can simply look at statistical facts.....

US Steel, all Unionized, was formerly the dominate steel supplier. Now Nucor, all non-union, is the dominate steel supplier.

I suppose it could all be coincidence, but it's hard to make that assumption when union membership has not just dropped as a percent of all workers, but drop in total numbers, but almost half.

Nope, it did. You didn’t read the whole thing. I don’t think you understand the difference between anecdotes and statistical facts. And you continue to use manufacturing examples.

Sparagmos · Dec 7, 2018

Andrew77 said:
Despite the clear theoretical presumption and strong anecdotal evidence, the magnitude of the effect of unions on establishment or firm survival is uncertain. One limiting factor is the absence of large, representative data sets that track establishments over time and provide information on union status.

From your own citation.

In short..... their research didn't come up with a clear conclusion because of a lack of data.

Regardless, I think we can simply look at statistical facts.....

US Steel, all Unionized, was formerly the dominate steel supplier. Now Nucor, all non-union, is the dominate steel supplier.

I suppose it could all be coincidence, but it's hard to make that assumption when union membership has not just dropped as a percent of all workers, but drop in total numbers, but almost half.

Unions Help the Middle Class, No Matter the Measure - Center for American Progress Action

Gigimo · Dec 8, 2018

Sparagmos said:
Full disclosure: I’m a union organizer, and before that I was a union member for 11 years. I was a waitress, and before I got a union job, I had never had employer provided insurance. I represent workers in an industry that often pays minimum wage. The members I represent not only make 15-40% more in wages, most of them have health insurance that covers their whole family, with no deductible, for $40/mo., and a pension that averages $1/hr. When you include the benefits, we are talking about a huge difference in total compensation. The non-union workplaces in these industries don’t even come close in compensation packages in the cities where our union density is low.

The decline in union membership over the years is primarily due to the concerted war the Republican Party and large corporations have waged against unions. Labor laws are weak. Companies fire workers for organizing ALL THE TIME, in fact when we start meeting with workers about forming a union, we have to tell them that they could be fired. Companies spend millions of dollars on sophisticated anti union programs that lie, scare, and intimidate workers. For instance, they hold “captive audience meetings” in groups or 1-1. Managers threaten workers and write them up for bogus reasons. In one place I was organizing they gave the workers 40% in raises over a year to convince them they didn’t need a union to get a raise.

THAT is why the labor movement is dying, and that is why wages have not kept up with inflation or production. Unions increase wages and benefits, it’s a simple, provable fact. But the propaganda from the corporate lobby has been very effective at convincing a lot of Americans that unions are bad has been very effective.

There are multiple reasons why union membership is shrinking, the economy has stunk for quite awhile (it's hard to get a pay raise when the economy won't support it). They're tired of seeing their dues (6.25% around here) being used to get idiots (political masters) elected in DC that have no clue as to what it takes to build/run a strong economy. They believed the politicians/union bosses lies about how they would get all of those Government contracts that anybody in their right mind knew would never happen when that system almost always uses low bidder (it's hard to underbid scabs). Training isn't what it used to be, benefits aren't what they used to be, retirement pension funds hovering on the brink of insolvency (ours has been in the 50some% range for about 10 years now) .

So blaming it all on companies and Republicans is disingenuous to say the least. The current members are getting tired of the BS and are telling younger prospective members to look elsewhere if they want to have a chance of retiring before they're 80.

Sparagmos · Dec 8, 2018

Gigimo said:
There are multiple reasons why union membership is shrinking, the economy has stunk for quite awhile (it's hard to get a pay raise when the economy won't support it). They're tired of seeing their dues (6.25% around here) being used to get idiots (political masters) elected in DC that have no clue as to what it takes to build/run a strong economy. They believed the politicians/union bosses lies about how they would get all of those Government contracts that anybody in their right mind knew would never happen when that system almost always uses low bidder (it's hard to underbid scabs). Training isn't what it used to be, benefits aren't what they used to be, retirement pension funds hovering on the brink of insolvency (ours has been in the 50some% range for about 10 years now) .

So blaming it all on companies and Republicans is disingenuous to say the least. The current members are getting tired of the BS and are telling younger prospective members to look elsewhere if they want to have a chance of retiring before they're 80.

What union are you in or referring to? In our union benefits, etc are improved with each contract and pension has recovered from the recession. I’d like to point out that in the service sector, union membership is growing.

Andrew77 · Dec 8, 2018

Sparagmos said:
No, you have listed a handful of anecdotes, most of which have a whole other side. I posted a Princeton study, that includes thousands of anecdotes. You actually used coal as an example (?!) and keep talking of plants. We all know manufacturing and coal are nearly dead in the US! The anti-coal lobby hardly originated with unions, LOL. There is no way the U.S can compete in the global manufacturing market.

Please address the industries where unionism is growing - service sector, education, retail, etc. Since a vast majority of unionized workplaces don’t “shut down,” and do raise wages and benefits, then unions do far more good than bad.

Of course unions are adversarial. The boss and the worker do not have the same interests. It is the most adversarial before the union is organized, it’s just that the workers have no power except to grumble and complain. When the bosses treat the workers well, there is no need for a union.

You seem to be focusing on 'coal', when it is the market effects I am referring to. Market effects are not tied to a particular industry. Market effects are universal. When you strike, people tend to switch suppliers to something that is not going to be shut down every time a Union complains.

Customers do not just stand around waiting for you to sign a contract.

They move on. They find other people to conduct business with.

Education unions are growing, because most of the education market is run by the government. So naturally when you have a lock on the public school market (meaning tax payers can not choose where their money goes), and the people paying the bill are the tax payers and working people, then of course there is only upside to being unionized.

With how absolutely horrifically bad public education is, relative to its cost, I hope the private school movement gains traction and eventually wipes out public education.

Service sector unions are growing? I'm not seeing it. Walmart hasn't unionized, and good thing. McDonald's hasn't unionized. Clearly the car wash unionizing in NYC failed miserably.

Where exactly would you point to, as the great success of Unions?

Sparagmos said:
Unions Help the Middle Class, No Matter the Measure - Center for American Progress Action

Link broken, but CAPA is a left-wing biased source.

If you go back and read the history of labor in the US, work place conditions were improving, and work day hours were shrinking, before unions ever existed.

Further, there is no indication that unions significantly improved the realities of labor much over what was naturally happening from market forces.

Things would have continued to improve with, or without unions, because they were improving before unions existed.

Again, does that mean unions never served a purpose? Sure. But to claim that without unions there would be no middle class, is unsupportable by the evidence. Correlation does not equal causation. The fact that A is true, and B is true, does not be A caused B.

The fact working conditions improved, and the fact unions exist, does not mean unions caused working conditions to improve. I realize this is a popular and self-serving belief system for a person who is in the union management, but facts do not support the opinion.

Gigimo · Dec 9, 2018

Sparagmos said:
What union are you in or referring to? In our union benefits, etc are improved with each contract and pension has recovered from the recession. I’d like to point out that in the service sector, union membership is growing.

Plumbers and Pipefitters.

Sparagmos · Dec 9, 2018

Gigimo said:
Plumbers and Pipefitters.

Do you partucipate with your union? Attend meetings and show up for actions when the union plans them? Union strength is all about worker participation. I’ve heard you all make really good money, is that not the case? I go to a lot of union conventions but I don’t know if I’ve met anyone from your union so I don’t know much about it.

Gigimo · Dec 9, 2018

Sparagmos said:
Attend meetings and show up for actions when the union plans them? Union strength is all about worker participation

Union strength is all about the opportunity to work not how many people show up at silly meetings, fish fry's or Christmas parties for the kids. If the work isn't there people migrate to other states/cities where there is work.

Once the car plants left and went to other countries the membership and amount of hours worked has dropped precipitously. I wouldn't be afraid to say the union as a whole is only working about 1/2 the amount of hours it was when I first got here in 2001, the town is drying up and blowing away. And it doesn't help matters much that the main school district for this area is in danger of being taken over by the state as they always get a "D" or "F" rating. The districts in the suburbs rank quite a bit higher but not everybody can afford to live in one of those districts. So consequently that keeps prospective businesses away and the opportunity for work is greatly reduced.

Once people figure out how to vote problems like this will be greatly reduced, until then you just have to deal with it and scrounge for every customer/hour you can get.

Sparagmos · Dec 9, 2018

Gigimo said:
Union strength is all about the opportunity to work not how many people show up at silly meetings, fish fry's or Christmas parties for the kids. If the work isn't there people migrate to other states/cities where there is work.

Once the car plants left and went to other countries the membership and amount of hours worked has dropped precipitously. I wouldn't be afraid to say the union as a whole is only working about 1/2 the amount of hours it was when I first got here in 2001, the town is drying up and blowing away. And it doesn't help matters much that the main school district for this area is in danger of being taken over by the state as they always get a "D" or "F" rating. The districts in the suburbs rank quite a bit higher but not everybody can afford to live in one of those districts. So consequently that keeps prospective businesses away and the opportunity for work is greatly reduced.

Once people figure out how to vote problems like this will be greatly reduced, until then you just have to deal with it and scrounge for every customer/hour you can get.

I’m not talking about parties. I’m talking about direct action against the boss. Do you participate? Rallies, pickets, delegations, filing grievances, wearing a union button, etc. That is how a union gets your boss to agree to stuff. I’m not talking about silly meetings, I’m talking about meetings where you vote on the business of the union and plan on how to solve problems at work.

It sounds like economics have hit your industry hard. That’s not the union’s fault. It also sounds like you live in a semi rural area (you said town not city,) and there just isn’t opportunity there. Cities have a lot more to offer.

Gigimo · Dec 10, 2018

Sparagmos said:
I’m not talking about parties. I’m talking about direct action against the boss. Do you participate? Rallies, pickets, delegations, filing grievances, wearing a union button, etc. That is how a union gets your boss to agree to stuff. I’m not talking about silly meetings, I’m talking about meetings where you vote on the business of the union and plan on how to solve problems at work.

It sounds like economics have hit your industry hard. That’s not the union’s fault. It also sounds like you live in a semi rural area (you said town not city,) and there just isn’t opportunity there. Cities have a lot more to offer.

Population in the metro area where the hall is located is right about 800,000 (used to be more before the car plants left for other countries), total population within a 50 mile radius is probably somewhere in the 1.5M to 2M range.

There are roughly 12 companies (fluctuates) that are signatories on our contract. Some are small with about 20 employees others have close to 100. Each company has anywhere from 100 - 700 customers/companies they serve on a regular basis. All of the companies are totally dependent on what work their customers want accomplished. More work means more Union employees less means less, plain and simple economics.

The GM, Ford and Chrysler car and truck plants alone supported about 300 of our members full time, now they're gone and so are those members. Some retired, some went to other states/cities on traveling cards and some went scab, you gotta do what you gotta do to survive.

No you can see what I mean when I say "Once people figure out how to vote (political party) problems like this will be greatly reduced"...

tkolter · Dec 13, 2018

I worked in the shadow economy when younger for decades since its the only work I could get from cash to wash dishes and a meal for half the minimum wage to sweat shops to well some not nice jobs I'm ashamed of now. And let me tell you in NYC the underground economy is huge from mothers selling food on the street to now car washing since the cost to be legal is too high. Take the car washers a lot of people prefer human done labor and will go to find it and these men pay no taxes, or licensing fees or all the other costs of a business and are mobile. And most cops won't care to waste there time on arresting them for what amounts to paperwork and taxes. They first are locals 99% of the time and well are trying to earn a living that is the case for other street vendors unless they are hurting people no one will care to arrest them. I know this is true in California a relative sells pot on the street and since its not taxed and they are willing to lower their prices once pot became legal the street pot is a lot cheaper and people are going to them and since its imported supply isn't a big issue. Street cops don't care its now only a tax issue and the meth dealer is far more important to go after on the narcotic food chain than pot.

He isn't a Christian and well its how he supports himself and his family and he earns a lot of money.

Babe Ruth · Dec 18, 2018

Sparagmos said:
Straw man. Nowhere has the minimum wage gone from $8 to $15..That averages out to less than a dollar a year. We are now 3 years into the new scale and by no means have non-minimum wage earners increased at the same rate, even in union workplaces. The proposal to go to $15 never means “all at once,” and while over time it does help raise non-minimum wages..

Sparagmos, hi.. not sure why you're stating that I'm arguing against an imaginary straw man (in the advocacy for a $15 minimum wage). $15 minimum wage has a large, visible advocacy.. it's not a random number I'm suggesting (?)
Also confused why u quoted me as fearing a minimum wage increase would come "all at once". I didn't say that, or understand it that way. I support a progressive/gradual increase. And u correct me for speculating that minimum wage increase drives up all wages.. but then u agree, your quote: 'over time it does help raise non-minimum wages'.
I was basically agreeing with your position that current minimum wage is too low, but just addressing the realities I've seen, and forsee, with raising minimum wage. And how it does/can hurt, not solely help, fragile entry level, unskilled workforce. I believe it's a zero sum game..
Curious about your thoughts on how mandating raising wages accelerates the transaction to automation, if you're game (?) Peace

Sparagmos · Dec 18, 2018

Babe Ruth said:
Sparagmos, hi.. not sure why you're stating that I'm arguing against an imaginary straw man (in the advocacy for a $15 minimum wage). $15 minimum wage has a large, visible advocacy.. it's not a random number I'm suggesting (?)
Also confused why u quoted me as fearing a minimum wage increase would come "all at once". I didn't say that, or understand it that way. I support a progressive/gradual increase. And u correct me for speculating that minimum wage increase drives up all wages.. but then u agree, your quote: 'over time it does help raise non-minimum wages'.
I was basically agreeing with your position that current minimum wage is too low, but just addressing the realities I've seen, and forsee, with raising minimum wage. And how it does/can hurt, not solely help, fragile entry level, unskilled workforce. I believe it's a zero sum game..
Curious about your thoughts on how mandating raising wages accelerates the transaction to automation, if you're game (?) Peace

In your own words: “ If a relatively sharp & rapid increase is implemented for entry level employees, then the wages of crew leaders & asst manager will have to increase quickly & commensurately.. Seems like that is rarely mentioned. If u take cashiers from $8 to $15, then mid level employees will understandably expect/demand their pay rate follow suit“

You were saying that if a “sharp and rapid” increase occurred, taking “cashiers from $8 to $15” then certain bad things would happen. I called it a straw man because you were arguing against something that is not being proposed. I’m guessing you forgot what you originally posted, not a problem.

The $15 is a punlblic number, so I don’t think you just made it up. But we always advocate for incremental increases. Here in Oregon, we are going from $9.25 to $14.75 in about 6 years.

As someone who was involved with raiding the minimum wage in my state, comes from the food service industry, and represents food service workers (union rep) I have witnessed nothing but good come out of the increase. As I said, there is inevitable wage compression at the beginning, but over time the wages for non-minimum wage workers increase as well.

Automation is something we talk a lot about in my work. They now have robots that can do service jobs we never dreamed could be automated. It is a losing battle try and to stop automation. If you think about it, automation means the same profit /production can be accomplished with fewer hours of labor. What this SHOULD mean is all people in a business can work less for the same money.

Since I personally know people who work full time for minimum wage and live in their cars, you won’t ever see me saying it would somehow be better off if they made less money, to try to prevent automation. Companies will move to automation because of greed, either way.

Babe Ruth · Dec 19, 2018

Sparagmos said:
Straw man. Nowhere has the minimum wage gone from $8 to $15. In the state I live in, we raised the minimum wage $5.50 over 8 YEARS. That averages out to less than a dollar a year. We are now 3 years into the new scale and by no means have non-minimum wage earners increased at the same rate, even in union workplaces. The proposal to go to $15 never means “all at once,” and while over time it does help raise non-minimum wages, there is a lot of wage compression for the first few years. Where I live, the unemployment rate is lower than the national average too.

Sparagmos said:
You were saying that if a “sharp and rapid” increase occurred, taking “cashiers from $8 to $15” then certain bad things would happen. I called it a straw man because you were arguing against something that is not being proposed. I’m guessing you forgot what you originally posted, not a problem.

Here in Oregon, we are going from $9.25 to $14.75 in about 6 years.

As someone who was involved with raiding the minimum wage in my state, comes from the food service industry, and represents food service workers (union rep) I have witnessed nothing but good come out of the increase. As I said, there is inevitable wage compression at the beginning, but over time the wages for non-minimum wage workers increase as well.

Automation is something we talk a lot about in my work. They now have robots that can do service jobs we never dreamed could be automated. It is a losing battle try and to stop automation. If you think about it, automation means the same profit /production can be accomplished with fewer hours of labor.
Since I personally know people who work full time for minimum wage and live in their cars, you won’t ever see me saying it would somehow be better off if they made less money, to try to prevent automation.

Sparagmos, hi again.. I remembered what I posted, I recognized that u misquoted me, that's honestly the reason I responded.. to clear my post.
I personally believe/standby that raising minimum wage 5.50 over 6 years is rapid. It's faster than inflation, that's my characterization: rapid. Not intended as a value but as a matter of fact.
$15 is being advocated for, your state is living proof.. c'mon $14.75 vs $15.. that's hair-splitting. Your response says I'm forgetful, and/or still imagining a straw advocacy for $15.

My opinion, we'll have to have this conversation in 10 years to fully gage how the minimum wage increases ultimately helped or hurt entry level workers, how much automation expanded or contracted human labor opportunities.. Time will tell, & u don't have pitch me the tales of the working poor. I'm living it ~ peace

Sparagmos · Dec 19, 2018

Babe Ruth said:
Sparagmos, hi again.. I remembered what I posted, I recognized that u misquoted me, that's honestly the reason I responded.. to clear my post.
I personally believe/standby that raising minimum wage 5.50 over 6 years is rapid. It's faster than inflation, that's my characterization: rapid. Not intended as a value but as a matter of fact.
$15 is being advocated for, your state is living proof.. c'mon $14.75 vs $15.. that's hair-splitting. Your response says I'm forgetful, and/or still imagining a straw advocacy for $15.

My opinion, we'll have to have this conversation in 10 years to fully gage how the minimum wage increases ultimately helped or hurt entry level workers, how much automation expanded or contracted human labor opportunities.. Time will tell, & u don't have pitch me the tales of the working poor. I'm living it ~ peace

I literally cut and paste from your post. I did not misquote you. You posted that stuff. And I was not in any way implying that $14.75 was different from $15. It’s pretty much the same. I’ll repeat: the straw man you put up was a “sharp and rapid” increase, taking cashiers from “8 to 15” dollars. I don’t think anyone would read that to mean a gradual increase, or think that 6 years is “sharp and rapid.”

If the increase only matched inflation, how would we ever catch up for all of those years that the minimum wage didn’t keep up with inflation?

I was actually trying to be kind by saying perhaps you forgot. I didn’t want to call you a liar.

tkolter · Dec 19, 2018

Isn't the issue they priced workers unionized out of their jobs on the books and now the same working people using vans and bought or rented equipment are working off the books for cash doing the same kind of work they used to do? And now their former employers who fired them and automated are wanting the former employees to stop working off the books.

How did the higher minimum wage help the workers in the long run in this case?

Andrew77 · Dec 19, 2018

Gigimo said:
Union strength is all about the opportunity to work not how many people show up at silly meetings, fish fry's or Christmas parties for the kids. If the work isn't there people migrate to other states/cities where there is work.

Once the car plants left and went to other countries the membership and amount of hours worked has dropped precipitously. I wouldn't be afraid to say the union as a whole is only working about 1/2 the amount of hours it was when I first got here in 2001, the town is drying up and blowing away. And it doesn't help matters much that the main school district for this area is in danger of being taken over by the state as they always get a "D" or "F" rating. The districts in the suburbs rank quite a bit higher but not everybody can afford to live in one of those districts. So consequently that keeps prospective businesses away and the opportunity for work is greatly reduced.

Once people figure out how to vote problems like this will be greatly reduced, until then you just have to deal with it and scrounge for every customer/hour you can get.

This is one of the reasons, that right-wing people like myself support school vouchers. If you could take a voucher, and place your kids in another school... and because you could do that, new smaller private schools opened up.... would you not like that ability to choose where your kids go?

How will voting reduce your problems? I'm confused.

Minimum Wage Unions: Car wash in New York City = Failure

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Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The walking accident

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

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Active Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Active Member

The walking accident

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