liberty of conscience
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- Dec 3, 2018
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You said...…….
"Indeed, since the scripture does not teach OSAS."
That is what I said, and demonstrated from OT King Saul, and NT Ananias and Sapphira, which you do not address contextually, at all. You ignored what I presented, and instead went on a circle chase, which when I address you will move onto yet another text, instead of dealing with the first response and this response. Please be advised I have all of the so-called OSAS 'go-to' texts, and have complete contextual material on each. Therefore, please address the first post, and we can get to all the others as needful.
I understand, but you ignored responding to the material I provided, and simply went on a circle chase.I disagree.
John 3:15-18 says about Christ:...……
“The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”
Do you understand that "believeth" (KJB) is a verb; πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM (verb-present-active-participle-nominative-singular-masculine). It is an action word, yes? Do you understand that it is not a 'one time' action? That it is to be a continuous (on going by choice) action?
Thus it is not an "I believe" and that's an end of it (that is the start of it, a "born again" (a brand new child, but that child must feed and grow and trust), but it is to be a daily, moment by moment "belief", a continual hold on Christ Jesus.
Notice the context of Moses and the Serpent. Some believed didn't they? Yet did all enter the promised land, and continue to believe? See 1 Corinthians 10, which speaks of the "written for our adminition".
Thus this passage does not contradict what was shared with you on King Saul, nor Ananias and Sapphira, nor against what was presented to you in Hebrews 6, etc. The person who believes, can always, of their own free will, cease (by choice) to believe. They do not have to cease to believe, but they can always choose to do so. Salvation is a marriage. It begins with "I do" (believe), but that is not the end, but the beginning. This passage doesn't support OSAS, but what was already shared. God's word says:
1Co_7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.
This applies also to the relationship between the beleiver and Christ Jesus.
The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal.
Indeed, so long as the person "believes" (based on faith, thus conditional, not unconditional), but once the person decides to cease to believe, Christ Jesus (though pleading in love) does not force anyone to remain who wants to leave.
In John 10:28-30, Jesus says:...…….
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."
In John 10:28-29; The word "pluck" is again the Koine Greek αρπασειG726 V-FAI-3S, "Harpazo" and it means "to forcefully take away, to snatch away by might/power", and no one is saying that anyone can do so. The person always has the ability/choice to leave of their own free will.
How did the Devil get Man to sin, did He forcibly take Man [Adam and Eve] from God, or was it through deception, and drawing away?
Look at the other texts that the word "pluck" is used, which is how actual Bible study is done, instead of what is being done - http://www.bluelette...ongs=G726&t=KJV
"take Him [Jesus] by force" - John 6:15
"the wolf catcheth them" - John 10:12
"the Spirit of the LORD caught away Philip" - Acts 8:39
"to take him [Paul] by force" - Acts 23:10
etc.
Therefore John 10:28-29, read that "no [man] can take them by force out of my hand... Father's hand."; and therefore is in complete harmony with the other texts of Scripture which declare that we may be "drawn away":
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14
Notice the context, that the victory only goes to those that "endureth temptation" [James 1:12] and overcome in Christ Jesus by the Power/Grace of the Holy Spirit. Notice again James give the sure warning, "Do not err, my beloved brethren." James 1:16 and "But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." James 1:22, for we can be self-deceived. We can be "drawn away" from God, of our own desires, and "enticed" to leave God altogether for the deceptions of satan. That is why the warning is given all over the Scripture, Satan can "devour" us! OSAS is the deception of the devil that he may pick off the arrogant, the presumptuous ones of God's grace, which take it to mean that no matter what one does that they cannot lose out. What a foolish and utterly hypocritical notion! Satan will kill us dead, and all it takes is to move out from under the protection of God, by choosing other than His will [Psalms 40:8], etc. Though all men are tempted, God makes a away of escape, that we might not sin [1 John 3:4], but we have to choose to take it. God does not choose for us.
Just as the Israelites were the "ensamples" [types] [1 Corinthians 10:11] for us, as they were just upon the borders of entering in, they were ensnared of the enemy, and were destroyed! Do not we see the real danger of the same unto our own soul?! They could turn away from God, even as we, by our own free choice that God gave unto us. We would then be using the power of the choice that God gave us to refuse God.
For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people. Numbers 32:15
But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; Deuteronomy 30:17
I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. Deuteronomy 30:18
Some say Israel had a different relationship to God. No, read 1 Corinthians 10, they had the Lamb, they had the Baptism, they had the Bread, they had all that we have, including the Water [Holy Spirit] from the Rock [Christ Jesus]. King Saul himself, was "...turned into another man." [1 Samuel 10:6] by the Holy Spirit, and yet he is forever lost, "rejected" of God, because he continually refused to repent, after a time of walking with the Lord, to listen to Him any longer and grieved away the Holy Spirit [“the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul” 1 Samuel 16:14; & "the LORD ... was departed from Saul" 1 Samuel 18:12].
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Hebrews 12:25
I desire to see all safe from any of that, and standing upon the sure Word, not a vain and hopeless, No matter what one does, that it cannot affect our standing before God. That was one of the very same lies of Lucifer in Heaven ["iniquitous traffick"]. Paul knew and warned others, and feared:
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:27
"castaway" means "unapproved, unfit, reprobate" - http://www.bluelette...rongs=G96&t=KJV
Shall we not hear the Word plead with us?:
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:4
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:5
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:6
...
But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:8
That word "rejected" is the very same word Paul used in 1 Corinthians 9:27 for "castaway", and even as Jesus said, as the branch that did not abide in the Vine, it will wither, and be good for nothing, but to be gathered and thrown into the fire...
Some think that being “born again” is immutable protection against being lost.
Why do they think that "born again" means apart from obedience to the Law of God [Acts 5:32; john 14:15; Exodus 20:6, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 6:16 Revelation 12:17; 14:12; 22:14, etc], yet God is 'restoring' [Acts 3:21; "restitution"] us to what we would have been before sin of Adam, getting back that face to face [1 Corinthians 13:12] relationship that Mankind had with God before sin [1 John 3:4], separated us from God, which is why it is called "redemption" [to purchase back again what was lost].
Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever
True. That is why it is very serious business. Hebrews 6, etc is clear.
Indeed. Eternal matters are at the heart of it. Very good, most people do not see what you just saw.because Christ only died once for the payment of our sins.
To accept that we can lose our salvation means that the Scriptures must be rejected.
The two things are exclusive of each other. The scriptures must be acccepted, which teach that salvation can be 'lost' (given up, turned away from after being accepted).
Will you accept what scripture has said then, will you accept what has been shared now, or will you attempt to go to yet another scripture, which I will tell you in advance cannot help OSAS, but will demonstrate the futility of that dangerous doctrine.
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