The Rule of faith and practice is not scripture "alone"

LoveofTruth

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The verses I quoted say there is ONE Spirit, not three separate Spirits.

Again I don't use the words "sparate ".In some verses we see all three spoken of and each verse relates to specific context and aspects of Gods work, through wither the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost.

We see some examples of this as I have given. I will give some of my understanding here I am still meditating on these wonderful words.

But Consider why Paul speaks of

One Spirit

One Lord

One God and Father


These three are one.

"4 There is one body,[The body of Christ has many members yet one body with Christ as the head. In all believers God dwells as the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost and each has a work and effect on us]

and one Spirit, [This may refer to the Holy Spirit who baptizes us into that Body 1 Cor 12;13 KJV or to Christ in you the hope of glory or this may simply be a way of speaking of God who is a Spirit in His being, who is also in three persons the Father the Son and the Holy Ghost] even as ye are called in one hope [Christ in you is the hope] of your calling;


5 One Lord, [This may be a reference to Jesus Christ or who is the hope and evidence of our faith and we are baptized into Jesus Christ and we say "Lord Jesus" Jesus the Son of God is Spirit and was made flesh] one faith, one baptism [there is one saving baptism, which is being baptized in to the body of Christ, into Jesus Christ as Peter says, this baptism saves (1peter 3:21 KJV). It is not water baptism or the Holy Ghost baptism or the baptism unto Moses of OT saints, or the baptism of sufferings or the baptism of fire or the baptism of John to Jesus. We read in scripture of the doctrine of baptisms (plural Hebrews 6:2 KJV) yet here we read of one baptism. This must be the vital salvation baptism into Christ at salvation as i would understand],


6 One God and Father [This is surely speaking of God the Father here as is said and God is a Spirit] of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all [here Paul says the Father is in you all. This is distinct form the Son being in you all as well. John said we have both the Father and the Son].


7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.[then Paul goes back to Christ]"(Ephesians 4:4-7 KJV)


This word "Christ " is used of a specific person

"10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead ..."(Romans 8:10,11 KJV)

Here we see that Christ is in believers and then Paul speaks of the Spirit that raised up "Jesus .....Christ from the dead". This shows that in this context the Spirit may be specifically the Holy Spirit or the Father, but it speaks of the Spirit raising up Jesus Christ. This does not sound like the Holy Spirit or the Father are spoken of here as being Christ. Christ is the one raised up by the Spirit. It doesnt say the Spirit raised up Himself . But the Spirit raised up "Jesus...Christ from the dead"
 
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LoveofTruth

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No I didn't say Christ is the Holy Spirit. You are still trying to twist my words. I said the Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit. Christ is the 2nd person of the Trinity. And his Spirit, aka the Holy Spirit, is the 3rd person. The Spirit of Christ, the Holy Spirit, indwells all believers, and thus Christ is "in" us.
Do you believe that "Christ" is the Spirit of Christ" and one in the same as scripture shows?

How do you separate Christ from the Spirit of Christ?

We read that Christ dwells in believers and we also read that this is defined as Jesus Christ in us (2 Cor 13:5 KJV)

and that Christ is the Son of God as Peter said by revelation of the Father.

And that the Son and the Father are BOTH in believers.

We also read that the Old Testament saints who had faith, were born again and saved and had hope of eternal life had Christ in them as well, before the Holy Ghost was given

We read that the Spirit raised up Jesus...Christ from the dead (Romans 8)

We also read that Christ died for our sins on the cross and that was not referring to the Holy Ghost or the Father in that case.To say the Father died on the cross is an ancient heresy. For God so loved the world that he gave His only begotten Son. He didn't die on the cross as the father or the Holy Ghost.
 
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LoveofTruth

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(Eph 2:18,

Again we see the Trinity and various ministrations of each.

"13 But now in Christ Jesus [Referring to the work of Christ of all times, this is the work of the Son of God the Word of God] ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
...

16 And that he [Jesus spoken of here "18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God] might reconcile both unto God [this may be a reference to the Father] in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:



17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.


18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit [through the Holy Spirit intercesson and work perhaps guiding and shedding love abroad in our heart and many other things. Jesus also offered himself to God through the eternal Spirit "14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God"Hebrews 9:14 KJV] unto the Father [here we see the Spirit of Father mentioned, so all three are spoken of.]


Before Christ came to Earth he was the Son of God and he is Spirit, the Father is also Spirit, and the Holy Ghost is Spirit. We read that God is a Spirit, one God in three persons.

When John said "these three are one" he didn't say, one "what". He simply said they are "one". Jesus also when speaking of the father and himself said ' I and my Father are one. Again, he didn't say "one what". We can interpret that to be one God.


We see this one God also spoken of as the same understanding here

John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent."


Here we see that Jesus spoke of "one true God". Now some might try to say, (and I have met them) that Jesus cannot be God by this statement for there is only one true God and Jesus was speaking of that one true God, so how can he himself be God? But they are wrong here.

We read of other verses that say words similar to the "three are one" in 1 John 5:7, such as,


1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life."


We know that Jesus Christ is spoken of here and the true God because John also said he is eternal life. In the first chapter of 1 John we read this

"That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life; 2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us )"(1 John 1:1,2 KJV)
 
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LoveofTruth

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The Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, as the Athenasian Creed says. He is therefore known as both the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of the Father/God. They are not 2 seperate Spirits. They are ONE Spirit (Eph 2:18, Eph 4:4, 1 Cor 12:13).
Again I never use the word separate. I think you cannot understand or imagine how three can be one and so you can only see the distinction of persons in Spirit as separate. But I do not see it that way.

In men's creeds they said truth but this simply says that God is known as the father the Spirit of Christ ( the Son or the Holy Ghost. These three are one.

You still didn't answer what the word "both the Father and the Son" means. The word BOTH, obviously implies a two fold aspect. If you try to say that that only means Christ in you. This is not what BOTH relates to

The word "Both" -means also.

If the Father is said to speak in believers as Jesus told us in Matthew 10. Then why didn't Jesus say in that instance, that He spoke in them or the Holy Ghost?

We read of other places where the Holy Ghost spoke certain things and Jesus said He (the Holy Ghost would guide them into all truth). In that case Jesus didn't say the Spirit of the Father would be doing that specifically or Himself. Though Jesus did say he would never leave them.

Paul also said that Jesus Christ was speaking in him and in the believers of Corinth as well and mighty in some of them. Paul didn't say that the father was speaking in that specific case or the Holy Ghost. But we do have other times when the Holy Ghost spoke to believers.

Paul said other times that he wrote the commandments of the Lord Jesus which he heard from Jesus.

There is no escaping the wording in scripture in this. The Father speaks to the Son and the Son to the father and the Holy Ghost speaks of the Son and directs as well.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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[QUOTE="LoveofTruth,

Now study is good as we are led by the Spirit and the anointing teaches us all things. The Spirit of God will guide us into all truth and the scriptures are of truth.[/QUOTE]
Wrong. This promise was only given to the Apostles. You are not guided into all truth as they were.
 
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LoveofTruth

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That passage doesn't say that Abraham had Christ in him. Nor does it say Abraham's "seed in every believer". Once again you are reading your own ideas into the passage which are not in the text.

And no, Rom 8:9 would not necessarily apply to OT saints. You are using the KJV terminology "any man" (which means 'anyone') to make it seem like it must apply to all humans. That is the same trick Pentecostals employ for claiming that no human can understand tongues in 1 Cor 14:2. In Rom 8:9 the context is people in the present, not people in the past. Note the present tenses throughout. So it is referring to anyone in the current era.

Yes it does and it is clear in the text. We read in Galatians 3

"16 Now to Abraham and his seed [singular, not speaking of his genetic lineage in the flesh] were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, [this is the one seed of Abraham. John says if we are born again His seed remaineth in us] And to thy seed, which is Christ...[as clear as we can read it here. This is a wonderful truth and a hidden mystery revealed]28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, [this is for all men not Jew only or Greek but for all] there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed,[and so if any man have not Christ in him or the Spirit of Christ he is none of His] and heirs according to the promise."(Galatians 3:16,28,29 KJV)

And remember that Christ dwells in our hearts by faith. All those in the faith chapter of Hebrews 11 had faith and so they had Christ in them the hope of glory. He is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen.

look at another verse that connects all believers faith of all time to this seed of Abraham.

"12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,[speaking of Gentile nations here]) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were. 18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be."
 
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LoveofTruth

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[QUOTE="LoveofTruth,

Now study is good as we are led by the Spirit and the anointing teaches us all things. The Spirit of God will guide us into all truth and the scriptures are of truth.
Wrong. This promise was only given to the Apostles. You are not guided into all truth as they were.
Wrong as scripture easily correct you here.

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."


Here is more of your correction. May God bless you as you consider these things.

Spoken to all believers

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:1-14 KJV)

and yes it was spoken for all believers everywhere

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"(1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV)

and when Jesus said what he said to the apostles. They are parts of the body of Christ the church and we read,

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:...13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."(John 16:8,13 KJV)

This is directly in line with 1 Cor 2 and Acts 2 when the Holy Ghost came upon all the disciples not just the aposltes. He will giude them into ALL truth just as he does in 1 John 2:27 where John speaks of the anointing that will teach them all things. This is the unction that helps them to know all things that God would give. As scripture clearly says,

"20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things....27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."(1 John 2:20,27 KJV)


Clearly we just read that


The Holy Ghost teaches the saints and searches ALL THINGS ( 1 Cor 2

And the Spirit of truth will guide them into ALL TRUTH John 16:13 KJV)

And the anointing teaches them ALL THINGS

and the unction helps them to know ALL THINGS.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Wrong. This promise was only given to the Apostles. You are not guided into all truth as they were.
Wrong as scripture easily correct you here.

Acts 2:39
"For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."


Here is more of your correction. May God bless you as you consider these things.

Spoken to all believers

"And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: 5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. 6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: 8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."(1 Corinthians 2:1-14 KJV)

and yes it was spoken for all believers everywhere

"Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:"(1 Corinthians 1:2 KJV)

and when Jesus said what he said to the apostles. They are parts of the body of Christ the church and we read,

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:...13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come."(John 16:8,13 KJV)

This is directly in line with 1 Cor 2 and Acts 2 when the Holy Ghost came upon all the disciples not just the aposltes. He will giude them into ALL truth just as he does in 1 John 2:27 where John speaks of the anointing that will teach them all things. This is the unction that helps them to know all things that God would give. As scripture clearly says,

"20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things....27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him."(1 John 2:20,27 KJV)


Clearly we just read that


The Holy Ghost teaches the saints and searches ALL THINGS ( 1 Cor 2

And the Spirit of truth will guide them into ALL TRUTH John 16:13 KJV)

And the anointing teaches them ALL THINGS

and the unction helps them to know ALL THINGS.

[/QUOTE]
Jn 16 was not promised to you but the Apostles only. Guess the Spirit did not guide you into proper hermenutics on these portions. You still do not understand.
 
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LoveofTruth

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I've previously explained your error in regard to Rom 10 and Deut 30...
Paul is not giving us an exegesis of Deut 30, let alone changing it's plain meaning (the Law not being difficult to attain). The fact that Paul only provides a partial and very loose paraphrase of Deut 30:11-14 should make that obvious enough. The phrases from Deut 30 that he quotes (Who will ascend into heaven? Who will descend into the deep?) had become proverbial sayings for something that is not difficult to attain. And it is in that sense that Paul quotes those phrases to make the point that finding Christ is similarly not difficult. His intention is not to interpret Deut 30, but to use its language to make a comparison. Forcing that allusion back into Deut 30 and altering the plain meaning of that passage is a theological travesty.

You just don't see it that's a shame.

Your missing a great mystery. Some are troubled by spiritual things, and instead prefer a natural human wisdom it seems.

Paul absolutely is speaking of what I shared. He speaks of the word close to all and all can call upon the Lord and it doesn't matter what background they are from and where they are. The natural question would be to ask the question, "how shall they hear without a preacher? Notice the question mark. Then Paul answers "in vs 18 Have they not heard? yes verily...and then he quotes Psalm 19. He is showing that God is the divine preacher who has preached in the hearts of men by Christ the word of Christ, and even the word Paul preached came from the same word of faith that was spoken of, that word is Christ word in the heart.

Paul also previously said similar about the entire Gentile world who not having the law have the work of the law written in their hearts (Romans 2:14,15 KJV) This is Gods natural way of dealing with all men both Jew and Gentile. Their conscience also bears witness. One day God will judge the secrets of men, Jew and gentile by Jesus Christ according to the gospel Paul preached. The work of the law is to reprove all things as the true Light does this also (Ephesians 5:13 with John 3:19-21 and John 1:9, 2 Cor 4:2-7 KJV).

In Deuteronomy God said the commandment was not hidden from them. Paul also explains this with the gentiles as i just showed in Romans 2:14. This work of the law was there.

It seems the only way you can try to argue for Christ indwelling men in the OT is by performing highly dubious theological acrobatics on obscure passages such as these two.

they seem acrobatics to you. Just because they are obscure to you it doesn't mean they are to myself and others. But I do no such acrobatics I wait on the Lord and need no acrobatics he lifts me up on eagles wings.

The natural man cannot see the things of the spirit as Paul said in 1 Cor 2. They will only seem dark to them and "obscure". I have talked with many many believers and non believers and even among believers many cannot be spoken to as spiritual. Paul said he wanted to speak spiritually to some but he could not.

We have barely touched the mystery and spiritual things yet. This is not being arrogant or thinking I am anything. It is the way of life and light for those who hear God's voice and who are led by God. But we all need the body to edify eachother and to help in any areas we are not seeing clear or tossed to and fro. I seek only to speak truth to help. Not to destroy. I have no ego to gloat in, I seek to speak the same things with believers and the same mind and the same judgement that there be no divisions among us. But often I deal with massive amounts of man made stuff and traditions and doctrines of men..
 
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LoveofTruth

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Jn 16 was not promised to you but the Apostles only. Guess the Spirit did not guide you into proper hermenutics on these portions. You still do not understand.
Guess you really didn't read what I wrote or understand it
 
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LoveofTruth

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Pulling lists of scripture out of context does not say what you want it to.
Just saying I did that means nothing unless you show me how I did so.

Otherwise its like mud slinging to no effect.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Just saying I did that means nothing unless you show me how I did so.

Otherwise its like mud slinging to no effect.
Try reading jn16:4
Then 16:12. It comes right before 16:13
Notice Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, not you.
Jn15:27....you were not with Jesus from the beginning
 
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Alithis

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I didn't think I was in sin. That's why I asked what I needed to repent of.



So I am stubbornly following my own ways instead of God's ways. And I need to repent. Which of my ways do I need to repent of?
-you answered your own question.. when you said "So I am stubbornly following my own ways instead of God's ways"... that what we must all repent of .. our own ways .
 
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LoveofTruth

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Try reading jn16:4
Then 16:12. It comes right before 16:13
Notice Jesus is speaking to the Apostles, not you.
Jn15:27....you were not with Jesus from the beginning
John 17 - 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
 
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LoveofTruth

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Jn 16 was not promised to you but the Apostles only. Guess the Spirit did not guide you into proper hermenutics on these portions. You still do not understand.


You did your quotes wrong and made it seem like I said what you said om post number 108

you should fix that
 
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LoveofTruth

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Jn14:26...you did not hear Jesus preach, so the Spirit cannot bring to your remembrance what you did not hear to begin with, get it? See how it works?
wrong again,

Jesus said

"26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."(John 14:26 KJV)

here we see that the Holy Ghost will teach them all things. We see that the Holy Ghost also teaches every believer all things 1 Coir 2 and 1 John 2:27 etc.

Also we do have words that Jesus said as they are recorded as well for us. In ministry these words are also brought to our remembrance when needed by the Holy Ghost and we can use them also. Yes, the apostles had a special ministration and some of them would write scripture and need to remember many of the words Jesus said and the way they were able to recall all the long sections of text would be the way as Jesus said.

But we too can have the Holy Ghost teach us all things and bring Jesus words to remembrance. There is a connection to the believers that Jesus spoke to then and all believers who hear Jesus in their heart and in His words in scripture.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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John 17 - 20. Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; 21. That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.”
This has nothing to do with this discussion. Those who would believe the Apostolic word do not get the Apostolic promises.
 
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ICONO'CLAST

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Apr 2, 2005
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You did your quotes wrong and made it seem like I said what you said om post number 108

you should fix that
It does not change who Jesus was speaking to in those chapters. You should have acknowledged your error by this time.
 
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