Ellen White's Sabbath in Eden is Not Biblical

mmksparbud · Nov 9, 2018

Dale said:
You're saying that she talks about "the Three" instead of using the word Trinity.

I have checked every use of the word "three" in Conflict of the Ages. There is no passage where "three"
could possibly refer to the Trinity. There are three days, three miles, three churches, etc., but no theological "three."

I didn't say she wrote down the word three---I said she spoke of the three. What is it you are trying to prove? It's already been shown that she believed in the Trinity.

mmksparbud said:
We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}

there are many passages where she may not use the word Trinity, but she speak of the 3.

BobRyan · Dec 16, 2018

Dale said:
Those who go to church on Saturday, or advocate Sabbath observance, often say that God ordained the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. It is assumed that Christians are obligated to obey the Ten Commandments, although no verse in the New Testament that exactly says so. The Ten Commandments were specifically given to the Jews, to Israel.

Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists. It is difficult to exaggerate the importance that she put on the Sabbath. She doesn't say that the Sabbath command, or the Sabbath institution, as she sometimes calls it, originated at Sinai. Ellen White says that God gave the command to observe the Sabbath to Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden. She claims that the command was already known to the Israelites and renewed in the Ten Commandments. Further, it is binding on all nations. Yet none of this makes any sense. I will give quotes from Ellen White in my third and fourth posts.

There is no sign in Genesis that Adam or Eve did any work in the Garden of Eden. If they did no work, how could they abstain from work every seventh day? Work or toil isn't mentioned until after the Fall in Genesis Three: [God says,] “Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat food from it all the days of your life."

Exodus 35:3 prohibits lighting a cooking fire on the Sabbath. Yet Genesis gives the impression that Adam and Eve never used fire until they left Eden. While in Eden, Adam never hunted or killed an animal and Eve never cooked. No crop had ever been planted or harvested. How did they refrain from doing these things on the Sabbath if they never did them? We know that Adam and Eve didn't spend their time making clothes. No, the Sabbath wasn't given in Eden.

If there is any doubt that this is the right way of looking at the Eden story, take a look at God's covenant with Noah in Genesis Nine. In Genesis 9: 1-17, God lays down commandments for Noah and his descendants. Even today, rabbis regard this as the essence of God's law for all nations, for non-Jews, those not obligated to follow the Law of Moses. In Genesis Nine, God strongly condemns the shedding of human blood, in other words, murder. But there is no Sabbath commandment.

Continuing her claims about Genesis, Ellen White says that the children of Cain, the first murderer, chose their own day of worship. The children of Seth continued to worship on the true Sabbath. White comes close to saying that people who go to church on Sunday are hardly better than murderers.

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Dale · Dec 16, 2018

BobRyan said:
D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

Richard Ruhling · Dec 17, 2018

Dale said:
Dale: It seems narrow-minded to say that the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - the "Westminster Confession of Faith" or Ellen White were wrong about the moral law being given in Eden. You weren’t there, and we have evidence that Abraham obeyed the law in Genesis 26:5 and furthermore, the Flood came with Passover timing, but in the 2nd spring month as the law in Numbers 9:10,11 specifies (because he had contact with a dead body--Methuselah’s name meant, “At his death the sending forth of waters” (marginal reading of King James) and he died as a sign the Flood was coming, but Lamech (son) has died, so Noah buried him.
Rather than denying old truth, I think we should expand our minds to grasp new truth, like God won’t do anything without revealing it (Amos 3:7) and Paul said the annual sabbaths “are shadows of things to come,” Col 2:16<17. Christ affirmed that “till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle will pass from law till all is fulfilled.” He fulfilled the sacrificial part on our behalf, but Passover was ALSO when God said, “I will execute judgment” [at Passover] Exod 12:12, but Christ’s words clarify that it’s “as the days of Noah” That could be taken without meaning of timing except the next parable begins THEN shall two be in the field…. THEN means at the same time or as a direct consequence.
After five women missed the wedding, “watch” (clue for Passover as the only night in the year that being awake was required as Exod 12:10 and Matt 26:38-41 shows) “because the kingdom of God is like a man traveling to a far country.” Matt 25:13,14. THIS is a specific provision for Passover in the 2nd spring month and Christ’s return invisibly as a thief (like God came to Egypt when He executed judgment) but at 2nd Passover should convince honest Jews that He is truly the Master in that parable and He took the long journey to heaven and is returning on time as His law specifies.
It was the Catholic Church that boasts of getting rid of the “Jewish festivals” but they are on the wrong side of almost every issue. God calls them “My feasts in Leviticus 23 and the last verse includes mo’ed, appointed times as in Gen 1:14. Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and the appointed time (mo’ed) was also chosen then as Gen 1:14 suggests. God “declares the end from the beginning,” Isaiah 46:10
My study supports a huge event this spring at 2nd Passover “as the days of Noah” and “like a man traveling to a far country” I wish I knew how or where to post an article in this forum.

Richard Ruhling · Dec 17, 2018

Dale: It seems narrow-minded to say that the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - the "Westminster Confession of Faith" or Ellen White were wrong about the moral law being given in Eden. You weren’t there, and we have evidence that Abraham obeyed the law in Genesis 26:5 and furthermore, the Flood came with Passover timing, but in the 2nd spring month as the law in Numbers 9:10,11 specifies (because he had contact with a dead body--Methuselah’s name meant, “At his death the sending forth of waters” (marginal reading of King James) and he died as a sign the Flood was coming, but Lamech (son) has died, so Noah buried him.
Rather than denying old truth, I think we should expand our minds to grasp new truth, like God won’t do anything without revealing it (Amos 3:7) and Paul said the annual sabbaths “are shadows of things to come,” Col 2:16<17. Christ affirmed that “till heaven and earth pass, not one jot or tittle will pass from law till all is fulfilled.” He fulfilled the sacrificial part on our behalf, but Passover was ALSO when God said, “I will execute judgment” [at Passover] Exod 12:12, but Christ’s words clarify that it’s “as the days of Noah” That could be taken without meaning of timing except the next parable begins THEN shall two be in the field…. THEN means at the same time or as a direct consequence.
After five women missed the wedding, “watch” (clue for Passover as the only night in the year that being awake was required as Exod 12:10 and Matt 26:38-41 shows) “because the kingdom of God is like a man traveling to a far country.” Matt 25:13,14. THIS is a specific provision for Passover in the 2nd spring month and Christ’s return invisibly as a thief (like God came to Egypt when He executed judgment) but at 2nd Passover should convince honest Jews that He is truly the Master in that parable and He took the long journey to heaven and is returning on time as His law specifies.
It was the Catholic Church that boasts of getting rid of the “Jewish festivals” but they are on the wrong side of almost every issue. God calls them “My feasts in Leviticus 23 and the last verse includes mo’ed, appointed times as in Gen 1:14. Christ was the lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8) and the appointed time (mo’ed) was also chosen then as Gen 1:14 suggests. God “declares the end from the beginning,” Isaiah 46:10
My study supports a huge event this spring at 2nd Passover “as the days of Noah” and “like a man traveling to a far country” I wish I knew how or where to post an article in this forum.

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Who Is Michael The Archangel? | Free Book Library | Amazing Facts

"So Michael, the captain of the Lord's host, or army, is another title for Jesus."

Indeed. Michael archangel, means "Who is like unto God, the highest messenger" (of the Father), see for yourself (the entire leadership of the Reformation believed and taught it; Luther, Melanchthon, Geneva Bible commentators, and more, such as Baptists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Dictionaries, Scientists, Calvinists, Hymn Writers, "Doctors", Encyclopedias, etc)- TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

Who Is Michael Archangel?

While all of this is neat, the Bible itself teaches this, see the first link, and see each individual chapter.

Short list (for the long list with quotations in full in original language where possible, see the first Link and section: Michael the archangel [11] - Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation & etc):

Ellen G. White (AD November 26, 1827 – AD July 16, 1915) – Jesus is “Michael”

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180 – Jesus is “among the angels, archangel”

Roman Catholic Encyclopedia: Jesus is the Angel of the Great Counsel, the Angel of the LORD, etc

Augustine of Hippo (AD 13 November 354 – AD 28 August 430) Jesus is the “Angel of the Testament”, etc

Irenaeus (AD early 2nd century – c. AD 202) Jesus is the one that came down and spoke to the Patriarchs under the designation “Angel”.

Titus Flavius Clemens (Greek: Κλήμης ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς; c. 150 – c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria – Jesus is the “Angel of the Great Counsel”.

Justin Martyr, also known as Saint Justin (c. AD 100 – AD 165) – Jesus is called “Angel”, etc

Eusebius (AD 260/265 – AD 339/340); also called Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius Pamphili, - Jesus is called the “Angel of the mighty counsel”.

Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, anglicised as Tertullian (c. AD 160 – c. AD 225 AD) – Jesus is the ‘Angel’ that spake to Moses from the midst of the bush.

Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims], 1986: - Jesus is the “Lord’s Angel”, and “Angel of the LORD”, and etc.

Charles Buck (AD 1771 – AD 11 Aug 1815) Jesus is called “Angel” and “Archangel”.

John Butterworth, minister (born AD 1727- died AD 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Alexander Cruden (AD May 31, 1699 – AD November 1, 1770) – Jesus is called “Angel”.

Thomas Taylor (AD 15 May 1758 – AD 1 November 1835) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Patrick Fairbairn (AD 28 January 1805 – AD 6 August 1874) – Jesus is “Michael”.

William Baxter Godbey (AD June 3, 1833 - AD September 12, 1920) cites Dr. Clarke that Jesus is “Michael”.

Matthew Pool[e] – (AD 1624 – AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Sir William Smith (AD 20 May 1813 – AD 7 October 1893) – Jesus is “Michael” and cites others Luther, Hengstenberg, etc.

Thomas Coke (AD 9 September 1747 – AD 2 May 1814) – Jesus is “Michael”.

John Guyse (AD 1680 - AD 1761) – Jesus is “Michael”, and called “Angel”, etc

Elhanan Winchester (AD 1751 in Brookline, Massachusetts – AD April 18, 1797) – Jesus is “Michael”.

George Sale (AD 1697, Canterbury, Kent, England – AD 1736, London, England) ; George Psalmanazar (AD 1679? - AD 1763),; Archibald Bower (AD 17 January 1686 – AD 3 September 1766) ; George D. Shelvocke (baptised AD 1 April 1675 - AD 30 November 1742) ; John Campbell (AD 1708 - AD 1775); John Swinton (AD 1703 - AD 1777) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Church of England Magazine. Under the superintendence of the clergymen of the United Church of England and Ireland. Vol. IV. No. 85; January 6, 1838. By James Burns. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert Hawker (AD 1753 – AD 1827) – Jesus is “Michael” and “Archangel”.

Samuel Horsley (AD 15 September 1733 – AD 4 October 1806) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The London Encyclopedia, or Universal Dictionary … 1839. – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible; Volume 4; M-P, Revised, Full-Color Edition; - cites that many Protestants, Hengstenberg, etc that Jesus is “Michael”.

Zondervan NIV Study Bible (Fully Revised): Wide Margin Loose-Leaf Edition; copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. – Jesus is the “angel of the Lord”, etc.

Hermann Witsius (Herman Wits or in Latin Hermannus Witsius) (AD 12 February 1636 – AD 22 October 1708) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Reinerus Vogelsangius (AD 1610 - AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Johannes Cloppenburg (AD 1592 - AD 1652) - Jesus is Michael the “Angel of the Lord”.

Ralph Griffiths (AD c.1720 – AD September 28, 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Campegius Vitringa Sr., or Kempe Vitringa[1] (born at Leeuwarden, May 16, 1659; died at Franeker, March 31, 1722) – Jesus is “Michael” the “Archangel”.

Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Wigand (ca. AD 1523 - AD 21 October 1587) – Jesus is “Michael”.

David Chytraeus or Chyträus (26 February 1530, Ingelfingen – 25 June 1600, Rostock) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Giovanni Diodati or Deodati (AD 6 June 1576 – AD 3 October 1649) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Andrew Willet (AD 1562 – AD 4 December 1621) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Miller (AD February 15, 1782 – AD December 20, 1849) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl L. Beckwith, - Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert W. Bertram (AD 27 March 1921 - AD 13 March 2003) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Dr. Frances N. Lee (AD 1934 - AD Friday 23rd December, 2011) - - Jesus is “Michael”.

David Harold Chilton (AD 1951 – AD 1997) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Milton Spenser Terry (AD 1840 - AD 1914) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Whitefield - December 27 [O.S. December 16] 1714 – September 30, 1770) speaks by symbol, Jesus is our “Michael”.

James Petigru Boyce (AD 1827 – AD 1888) citing John Pye-Smith, Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

The Rev Dr John Pye-Smith FRS, FGS (AD 25 May 1774 - AD 5 February 1851) - Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

Christmas Evans (AD 25 December 1766 – AD 19 July 1838) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine
The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine for 1825, Volume II; London; published by B. J. Holdsworth, 18, St. Paul's Churchyard. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl Ferdinand Wilhelm Walther (AD October 25, 1811 – AD May 7, 1887) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Gill (AD 23 November 1697 – AD 14 October 1771) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Charles Spurgeon (AD 9 June 1834 – AD 31 January 1892) Jesus is the “True Michael”.

Matthew Henry (AD 18 October 1662 – AD 22 June 1714) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Adams (AD 1583 – AD 1653) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Heinrich [Henry] Bullinger (AD 18 July 1504 – AD 17 September 1575) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Isaac Watts (AD 17 July 1674 – AD 25 November 1748) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Kinkade (AD 22nd Sept. 1783 - AD 20th Sept. 1832) [became Arian later; Heresy] - Jesus is “Michael”.

Jonathan Edwards (AD October 5, 1703 – AD March 22, 1758) - Jesus is “Michael”.

1560/1599 Geneva Study Bible- Jesus is “Michael”.

John [Jean] Calvin (born Jehan Cauvin: AD 10 July 1509 – AD 27 May 1564) - Jesus is “Michael” and does not disagree with others who see the same.

Francois Du Jon aka Franciscus Junius (born François du Jon, AD 1 May 1545 – AD 13 October 1602) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Wesley (AD 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – AD 2 March 1791) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Brown of Haddington (AD 1722 – AD 19 June 1787) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Wood (AD 1751 – AD 1840) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Ernst Wilhelm Theodor Herrmann Hengstenberg (AD October 20, 1802, Fröndenberg – AD May 28, 1869, Berlin- Jesus is “Michael”.

Wikipedia, The Online Encyclopedia – Michael (Archangel); subsection - “Protestant Views” – cites John A. Lees, and Hengstenberg, Jesus is “Michael”.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, comment on section “Michael” by John A. Lees. - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Bunyan (AD 28 November 1628 – AD 31 August 1688) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Henry Ainsworth (AD 1571 – AD 1622) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Watson (c. AD 1620 – AD 1686) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Glasgow D.D. (AD 27 May 1805 – AD 1890 ) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Hastings (AD 1852 – AD 1922) and George Cunninghame Monteath Douglas (AD 1826 – AD 1904- Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Hobbes Scott (17 April 1783 – 1 January 1860) - Jesus may indeed be “Michael” as “many” others say.

Hezekiah Holland (born ca. AD 1617, living AD 1660) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Balderston Kidd (Cottingham, near Hull, AD 28 July 1794 – AD 1852) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Durham (AD 1622 – AD 1658) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Bryce Johnston (AD 1747 - AD 1805) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Vine's Expository Dictionary, by William Edwy Vine Section: "archangel” – the “archangels” “voice” is the “voice” of Jesus.

Thomas Haweis (AD 1 January 1734 - AD February 11, 1820) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929; Editor, Edwin Lewis (AD 1881 – AD 1959) was an American Methodist theologian primarily associated with Drew University in New Jersey. Others involved - Frederick Carl Eiselen; David G. Downey. - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann [John] Peter Lange (AD 10 April 1802 in Sonneborn (now a part of Wuppertal) – AD 9 July 1884), and Elijah Richard Craven (AD Mar. 28 1824, in Washington D.C. - AD Jan. 5 1908, in Philadelphia, Pa) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Robinson (AD 1813/14 - AD 1890) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Friedrich Haug ((AD * 1680, AD † 18. May 1753) and The Berlenburger Bibel [aka 'Berleb. Bible', 'Berleburger Bibel', etc.] is in the years AD 1726 - AD 1742) - Jesus is “Michael”.

ewq1938 · Dec 17, 2018

liberty of conscience said:
Indeed. Michael archangel, means "Who is like unto God, the highest messenger" (of the Father), see for yourself (the entire leadership of the Reformation believed and taught it

I was only proving SDA's do teach the errant belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. It is a false doctrine.

BobRyan · Dec 17, 2018

Dale said:
Those who go to church on Saturday, or advocate Sabbath observance, often say that God ordained the Sabbath in the Ten Commandments. It is assumed that Christians are obligated to obey the Ten Commandments, although no verse in the New Testament that exactly says so. The Ten Commandments were specifically given to the Jews, to Israel.

Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White, the founder of the Seventh Day Adventists....

Dale said:
Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

D.L. Moody insists that the Sabbath begins in Eden.
THE TEN COMMANDMENTS text by D. L. Moody

Moody says this in that sermon

"The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?

I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.

The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the Sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness."

Both the "Baptist Confession of Faith" - sectn 19 and the "Westminster Confession of Faith" sectn 19 affirm the same point about the TEN Commandments as the moral law of God that is given in Eden.

The lack of depth in the accusations made in the post is reflected somewhat by this statement "Most Christian advocates of Sabbath observance are influenced by Ellen White" - as if all Christians who are not at war against God's 4th commandment -- take their doctrine from Ellen White when it comes to God's Sabbath Commandment.

That is such an extreme statement it is hard to overstate the level of its exaggeration.

Dale said:
Could you quote this Baptist Confession of Faith and the Westminster Confession of Faith that you refer to? I don't think I have seen these particular documents.

Baptist Confession of Faith -- sectn 19

Here is it in Spurgeon's exanded edition in th 19th century.
The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

19. The Law of God

God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience which was written in his heart, and He gave him very specific instruction about not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. By this Adam and all his descendants were bound to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience, being promised life upon the fulfilling of the law, and threatened with death upon the breach of it. At the same time Adam was endued with power and ability to keep it.
The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the Fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in the ten commandments, and written in two tables, the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased do give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These ordinances were partly about their worship, and in them Christ was prefigured along with His attributes and qualities, His actions, His sufferings and His benefits. These ordinances also gave instructions about different moral duties. All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of reformation, when Jesus Christ the true Messiah and the only lawgiver, Who was furnished with power from the Father for this end, cancelled them and took them away.
To the people of Israel He also gave sundry judicial laws which expired when they ceased to be a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation, but their general equity continue to be applicable in modern times.
The moral law ever binds to obedience everyone, justified people as well as others, and not only out of regard for the matter contained in it, but also out of respect for the authority of God the Creator, Who gave the law. Nor does Christ in the Gospel dissolve this law in any way, but He considerably strengthens our obligation to obey it.
Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works, to be justified or condemned by it, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty and directs and binds them to walk accordingly. It also reveals and exposes the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts and lives, and using it for self-examination they may come to greater conviction of sin, greater humility and greater hatred of their sin. They will also gain a clearer sight of their need of Christ and the perfection of His own obedience. It is of further use to regenerate people to restrain their corruptions, because of the way in which it forbids sin. The threatenings of the law serve to show what their sins actually deserve, and what troubles may be expected in this life because of these sins even by regenerate people who are freed from the curse and undiminished rigours of the law. The promises connected with the law also show believers God's approval of obedience, and what blessings they may expect when the law is kept and obeyed, though blessing will not come to them because they have satisfied the law as a covenant of works. If a man does good and refrains from evil simply because the law encourages to the good and deters him from the evil, that is no evidence that he is under the law rather than under grace.
The aforementioned uses of the law are not contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but they sweetly comply with it, as the Spirit of Christ subdues and enables the will of man to do freely and cheerfully those things which the will of God, which is revealed in the law, requires to be done.

======================================

Westminster Confession of Faith
Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19

Westminister Confession of Faith Chapter 19
Of the Law of God

God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him, and all his posterity, to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in ten commandments, and written in two tables; the first four commandments containing our duty towards God; and the other six our duty to man.
Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a church under age, ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances; partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth diverse instructions of moral duties. All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated, under the New Testament.
To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any other now, further than the general equity thereof may require.
Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned; yet is it of great use to them, as well as to others; in that, as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their nature, hearts, and lives; so as, examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against sin, together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ, and the perfection of his obedience. It is likewise of use to the regenerate, to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to show what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse thereof threatened in the law. The promises of it, in like manner, show them God’s approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, although not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works: so as a man’s doing good, and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one, and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law, and not under grace.
Neither are the forementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the gospel, but do sweetly comply with it; the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God revealed in the law requires to be done.

BobRyan · Dec 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
I was only proving SDA's do teach the errant belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. It is a false doctrine.

Which is false. SDAs teach that Jesus is the second person of the Godhead -- and that in Genesis 18 the LORD (YHWH) appears in the form of a man to Abraham but this does not mean that "God is a man". In the same way SDAs teach that the infinite God the Son - the second person of the godhead - relates to the Angels as Michael in his Rev 12 warrior role leading the armies of heaven.

And in no case is this one of the statements of belief of Seventh-day Adventists.

Might as well tell "The whole truth" about what they believe once you start down that road.

ewq1938 · Dec 17, 2018

BobRyan said:
Which is false.

It is the truth directly from an SDA website.

Who is Michael?

III. Is there any Scriptural Basis for Concluding that Michael refers to Christ?
The name "Michael" means Who is like God? The activities of Michael could not be performed by a created being, but only by the power of divinity.

Whose Voice Raises the Dead?

"The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (1 Thessalonians 4:16).

It is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. "Whose voice is it?" "The hour is coming when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: (John 5:25)

"Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice. (John 5:28)

Paul says that it is the voice of the Archangel that will awaken the dead. John says that it is the voice of the Son of God. No creature has the power over death. Only Jesus has that power.

"And if Christ be not raised your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. (1 Corinthians 15:17, 18)

"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1 Corinthians 15:22)

It was no mere angel that cast Satan out of heaven! He was cast out by the "power of his Christ."

"And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. (Revelation 12:10)

7. Michael your Prince in Daniel 10:21 refers to the same Person as Messiah the Prince (Daniel 9:25), The Prince of princes (Daniel 8:25), The Prince of Peace (Isaiah 9:6), The Prince of life (Acts 3:15), the Prince and Saviour (Acts 5:31), and the Prince of the kings of the earth. (Revelation 1:5)

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
I was only proving SDA's do teach the errant belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. It is a false doctrine.

So you are saying that all those that I listed (previously) - Ellen White's Sabbath in Eden is Not Biblical

are in error, all of the Reformation, Luther, Melanchthon, Dictionaries, Commentaries from godly scholars, and from those before them, such as Melito?

Which point of the material provided in the first link ( TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free ) is in error according to scripture (KJB), as I would be most glad to correct any items which are in error/s, and that are not in harmony with scripture itself, but at present I only have 'you' in evidence, and that your opinion only, even against so many others, being great men with noble deeds, spiriutal minds and lives, knowledgable of multiple languages, all writ in history.

Sister White is in harmony with the scripture, and even with most of those listed.

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
It is the truth directly from an SDA website.

Who is Michael?

No, bro.BobRyan, was saying that the charge that 'Michael archangel being Jesus is false', is false.

Dale · Dec 17, 2018

liberty of conscience said:
Indeed. Michael archangel, means "Who is like unto God, the highest messenger" (of the Father), see for yourself (the entire leadership of the Reformation believed and taught it; Luther, Melanchthon, Geneva Bible commentators, and more, such as Baptists, Anglicans, Presbyterians, Dictionaries, Scientists, Calvinists, Hymn Writers, "Doctors", Encyclopedias, etc)- TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

Who Is Michael Archangel?

While all of this is neat, the Bible itself teaches this, see the first link, and see each individual chapter.

Short list (for the long list with quotations in full in original language where possible, see the first Link and section: Michael the archangel [11] - Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation & etc):

Ellen G. White (AD November 26, 1827 – AD July 16, 1915) – Jesus is “Michael”

Melito of Sardis (wrote AD 165 – AD 175, died c. AD 180 – Jesus is “among the angels, archangel”

Roman Catholic Encyclopedia: Jesus is the Angel of the Great Counsel, the Angel of the LORD, etc

Augustine of Hippo (AD 13 November 354 – AD 28 August 430) Jesus is the “Angel of the Testament”, etc

Irenaeus (AD early 2nd century – c. AD 202) Jesus is the one that came down and spoke to the Patriarchs under the designation “Angel”.

Titus Flavius Clemens (Greek: Κλήμης ὁ Ἀλεξανδρεύς; c. 150 – c. 215), known as Clement of Alexandria – Jesus is the “Angel of the Great Counsel”.

Justin Martyr, also known as Saint Justin (c. AD 100 – AD 165) – Jesus is called “Angel”, etc

Eusebius (AD 260/265 – AD 339/340); also called Eusebius of Caesarea and Eusebius Pamphili, - Jesus is called the “Angel of the mighty counsel”.

Quintus Septimius Florens Tertullianus, anglicised as Tertullian (c. AD 160 – c. AD 225 AD) – Jesus is the ‘Angel’ that spake to Moses from the midst of the bush.

Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims], 1986: - Jesus is the “Lord’s Angel”, and “Angel of the LORD”, and etc.

Charles Buck (AD 1771 – AD 11 Aug 1815) Jesus is called “Angel” and “Archangel”.

John Butterworth, minister (born AD 1727- died AD 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Alexander Cruden (AD May 31, 1699 – AD November 1, 1770) – Jesus is called “Angel”.

Thomas Taylor (AD 15 May 1758 – AD 1 November 1835) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Patrick Fairbairn (AD 28 January 1805 – AD 6 August 1874) – Jesus is “Michael”.

William Baxter Godbey (AD June 3, 1833 - AD September 12, 1920) cites Dr. Clarke that Jesus is “Michael”.

Matthew Pool[e] – (AD 1624 – AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Sir William Smith (AD 20 May 1813 – AD 7 October 1893) – Jesus is “Michael” and cites others Luther, Hengstenberg, etc.

Thomas Coke (AD 9 September 1747 – AD 2 May 1814) – Jesus is “Michael”.

John Guyse (AD 1680 - AD 1761) – Jesus is “Michael”, and called “Angel”, etc

Elhanan Winchester (AD 1751 in Brookline, Massachusetts – AD April 18, 1797) – Jesus is “Michael”.

George Sale (AD 1697, Canterbury, Kent, England – AD 1736, London, England) ; George Psalmanazar (AD 1679? - AD 1763),; Archibald Bower (AD 17 January 1686 – AD 3 September 1766) ; George D. Shelvocke (baptised AD 1 April 1675 - AD 30 November 1742) ; John Campbell (AD 1708 - AD 1775); John Swinton (AD 1703 - AD 1777) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Church of England Magazine. Under the superintendence of the clergymen of the United Church of England and Ireland. Vol. IV. No. 85; January 6, 1838. By James Burns. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert Hawker (AD 1753 – AD 1827) – Jesus is “Michael” and “Archangel”.

Samuel Horsley (AD 15 September 1733 – AD 4 October 1806) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The London Encyclopedia, or Universal Dictionary … 1839. – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Zondervan Encyclopedia of the Bible; Volume 4; M-P, Revised, Full-Color Edition; - cites that many Protestants, Hengstenberg, etc that Jesus is “Michael”.

Zondervan NIV Study Bible (Fully Revised): Wide Margin Loose-Leaf Edition; copyright 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society. – Jesus is the “angel of the Lord”, etc.

Hermann Witsius (Herman Wits or in Latin Hermannus Witsius) (AD 12 February 1636 – AD 22 October 1708) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Reinerus Vogelsangius (AD 1610 - AD 1679) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Johannes Cloppenburg (AD 1592 - AD 1652) - Jesus is Michael the “Angel of the Lord”.

Ralph Griffiths (AD c.1720 – AD September 28, 1803) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Campegius Vitringa Sr., or Kempe Vitringa[1] (born at Leeuwarden, May 16, 1659; died at Franeker, March 31, 1722) – Jesus is “Michael” the “Archangel”.

Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Philipp Melanchthon (AD 16 February 1497 – AD 19 April 1560) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Wigand (ca. AD 1523 - AD 21 October 1587) – Jesus is “Michael”.

David Chytraeus or Chyträus (26 February 1530, Ingelfingen – 25 June 1600, Rostock) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Giovanni Diodati or Deodati (AD 6 June 1576 – AD 3 October 1649) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Andrew Willet (AD 1562 – AD 4 December 1621) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Miller (AD February 15, 1782 – AD December 20, 1849) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl L. Beckwith, - Jesus is “Michael”.

Robert W. Bertram (AD 27 March 1921 - AD 13 March 2003) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Dr. Frances N. Lee (AD 1934 - AD Friday 23rd December, 2011) - - Jesus is “Michael”.

David Harold Chilton (AD 1951 – AD 1997) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Milton Spenser Terry (AD 1840 - AD 1914) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Whitefield - December 27 [O.S. December 16] 1714 – September 30, 1770) speaks by symbol, Jesus is our “Michael”.

James Petigru Boyce (AD 1827 – AD 1888) citing John Pye-Smith, Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

The Rev Dr John Pye-Smith FRS, FGS (AD 25 May 1774 - AD 5 February 1851) - Jesus is “probably” “Michael”.

Christmas Evans (AD 25 December 1766 – AD 19 July 1838) – Jesus is “Michael”.

The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine
The Christian Gleaner and Domestic Magazine for 1825, Volume II; London; published by B. J. Holdsworth, 18, St. Paul's Churchyard. – Jesus is “Michael”.

Carl Ferdinand Wilhelm Walther (AD October 25, 1811 – AD May 7, 1887) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Gill (AD 23 November 1697 – AD 14 October 1771) – Jesus is “Michael”.

Charles Spurgeon (AD 9 June 1834 – AD 31 January 1892) Jesus is the “True Michael”.

Matthew Henry (AD 18 October 1662 – AD 22 June 1714) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Adams (AD 1583 – AD 1653) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Heinrich [Henry] Bullinger (AD 18 July 1504 – AD 17 September 1575) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Isaac Watts (AD 17 July 1674 – AD 25 November 1748) - Jesus is “Michael”.

William Kinkade (AD 22nd Sept. 1783 - AD 20th Sept. 1832) [became Arian later; Heresy] - Jesus is “Michael”.

Jonathan Edwards (AD October 5, 1703 – AD March 22, 1758) - Jesus is “Michael”.

1560/1599 Geneva Study Bible- Jesus is “Michael”.

John [Jean] Calvin (born Jehan Cauvin: AD 10 July 1509 – AD 27 May 1564) - Jesus is “Michael” and does not disagree with others who see the same.

Francois Du Jon aka Franciscus Junius (born François du Jon, AD 1 May 1545 – AD 13 October 1602) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Wesley (AD 28 June [O.S. 17 June] 1703 – AD 2 March 1791) - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Brown of Haddington (AD 1722 – AD 19 June 1787) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Wood (AD 1751 – AD 1840) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Ernst Wilhelm Theodor Herrmann Hengstenberg (AD October 20, 1802, Fröndenberg – AD May 28, 1869, Berlin- Jesus is “Michael”.

Wikipedia, The Online Encyclopedia – Michael (Archangel); subsection - “Protestant Views” – cites John A. Lees, and Hengstenberg, Jesus is “Michael”.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, comment on section “Michael” by John A. Lees. - Jesus is “Michael”.

John Bunyan (AD 28 November 1628 – AD 31 August 1688) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Henry Ainsworth (AD 1571 – AD 1622) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Watson (c. AD 1620 – AD 1686) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Glasgow D.D. (AD 27 May 1805 – AD 1890 ) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Hastings (AD 1852 – AD 1922) and George Cunninghame Monteath Douglas (AD 1826 – AD 1904- Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Hobbes Scott (17 April 1783 – 1 January 1860) - Jesus may indeed be “Michael” as “many” others say.

Hezekiah Holland (born ca. AD 1617, living AD 1660) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Adam Clarke (AD 1760 or AD 1762 – AD 1832) - Jesus is “Michael”.

George Balderston Kidd (Cottingham, near Hull, AD 28 July 1794 – AD 1852) - Jesus is “Michael”.

James Durham (AD 1622 – AD 1658) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Bryce Johnston (AD 1747 - AD 1805) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Vine's Expository Dictionary, by William Edwy Vine Section: "archangel” – the “archangels” “voice” is the “voice” of Jesus.

Thomas Haweis (AD 1 January 1734 - AD February 11, 1820) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Abingdon Bible Commentary, 1929; Editor, Edwin Lewis (AD 1881 – AD 1959) was an American Methodist theologian primarily associated with Drew University in New Jersey. Others involved - Frederick Carl Eiselen; David G. Downey. - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann [John] Peter Lange (AD 10 April 1802 in Sonneborn (now a part of Wuppertal) – AD 9 July 1884), and Elijah Richard Craven (AD Mar. 28 1824, in Washington D.C. - AD Jan. 5 1908, in Philadelphia, Pa) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Thomas Robinson (AD 1813/14 - AD 1890) - Jesus is “Michael”.

Johann Friedrich Haug ((AD * 1680, AD † 18. May 1753) and The Berlenburger Bibel [aka 'Berleb. Bible', 'Berleburger Bibel', etc.] is in the years AD 1726 - AD 1742) - Jesus is “Michael”.

We have here posted a lengthy list of claims which I cannot readily check out. I will have to say that in the past I have not found lengthy lists posted on CF to be reliable. It is too easy to exaggerate and twist the facts.

What is the original source for this list? Did some great scholar compile it? I don't see an author, a source or a link.

I will respond to a few items.

Libertyofconsicence: "Roman Catholic New American Bible with Footnotes [along with Douay Rheims], 1986: - Jesus is the “Lord’s Angel”, and “Angel of the LORD”, and etc."

The Angel of the Lord is not the same as Michael. Exactly what the Angel of the Lord does mean in the Old Testament is a fairly complicated subject, but it does not mean Michael. The Jews do not equate the two and neither do Christian scholars.

Libertyofconscience: "Roman Catholic Encyclopedia: Jesus is the Angel of the Great Counsel, the Angel of the LORD, etc"

I could repeat the same objections as above. When most people say "the Catholic Encyclopedia" they mean the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (NACE). NACE does have an article on Michael. It gives a number of traditions about the Archangel Michael but the article makes no direct mention of Jesus. It most definitely does not say that Jesus and Michael are the same. It does say that Catholic theologians have often disagreed on the status and rank of Michael. The article assumes that the status of Michael is certainly less than Jesus.

Libertyofconscience: "Martin Luther (AD 10 November 1483 – AD 18 February 1546) – Jesus is “Michael”."

I have located an article by a Lutheran minister on the beliefs of Martin Luther on angels. According to this article, Luther had a favorable opinion of angels and gave considerable importance to them. However, Luther gave no special place to Michael except as one of several high angels, and one that happens to be mentioned in the Bible.

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

Dale said:
We have here posted a lengthy list of claims which I cannot readily check out. ...

Yes you can, if not lazy (you obviously have not read my original reply, nor the second reply carefully). I provided the link and directions to the chapter itself with full original language quotations, twice now, here it is a third time - TinyUpload.com - best file hosting solution, with no limits, totaly free

See chapter "Michael the archangel [11] - Messengers of the LORD & the Reformation & etc"

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

Dale said:
...However, Luther gave no special place to Michael except as one of several high angels, and one that happens to be mentioned in the Bible.

Incorrect. I provided the link with the original language quote itself, and he with Philip Melanchthon and many others in the German Lutherans (Hengstenberg, etc) taught the same thing.

ewq1938 · Dec 17, 2018

liberty of conscience said:
So you are saying that all those that I listed (previously) - Ellen White's Sabbath in Eden is Not Biblical

are in error, all of the Reformation, Luther, Melanchthon, Dictionaries, Commentaries from godly scholars, and from those before them, such as Melito?

Yes. Anyone who teaches Jesus is also the Archangel Michael is very wrong.

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

Dale said:
The Angel of the Lord is not the same as Michael.

The sources provided, with the primary exception of the 'Catholic fathers', disagree with you.

Dale said:
Exactly what the Angel of the Lord does mean in the Old Testament is a fairly complicated subject

Not really and is merely your personal subjective position, which is no authority, in scripture, language, etc. It is pretty straight forward and the sources provided make this abundantly clear.

Dale said:
but it does not mean Michael.

This is true in a sense, that the terms themselves "angel of the LORD" and "Michael" do not definitionally mean the same thing, but that isn't really the whole picture is it?

Dale said:
The Jews do not equate the two

Actually the older Jewish scholars do equate Michael with the Messiah. See the link.

Dale said:
and neither do Christian scholars.

Yes they do, and they were provided in the list, dictionaries, lexicons, commentaries, etc. See the list provided.

Dale said:
I could repeat the same objections as above. When most people say "the Catholic Encyclopedia" they mean the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia (NACE).

The CCE is cited on NewAdvent, which is from the 100 year old and approved, Nihil Obstat and Imprimatur CCE.

Dale said:
NACE does have an article on Michael. It gives a number of traditions about the Archangel Michael but the article makes no direct mention of Jesus.

It sure does have such articles, and you are correct that Roman Catholicism does not equate Michael with Jesus.

I never said they did. Nor implied it. The list is clear.

Dale said:
It most definitely does not say that Jesus and Michael are the same.

Strawman. I never made that argument, nor stated that they ever had.

Dale said:
It does say that Catholic theologians have often disagreed on the status and rank of Michael.

True.

Dale said:
The article assumes that the status of Michael is certainly less than Jesus.

Yes, because Roman Catholicism has a high rate of angel-worship (dulia), and in covert denigrates the real Jesus Christ.

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
Yes. Anyone who teaches Jesus is also the Archangel Michael is very wrong.

The whole Reformation including the leadership? Genevan scholars? Multiple well known persons among varied denominations, who have written commentaries, dictionaries, translated whole bibles into other languages (such as the Italian Deodati), and knew the languages in Latin, Syriac, Hebrew, Arabic, etc?

You are more learned than these who have thoroughly studied and wrote whole works on the subject, like the Lutheran Hengstenberg and Melanchthon?

Have you even read their material, which is heavily scripture referenced in multiple languages?

ewq1938 · Dec 17, 2018

liberty of conscience said:
The whole Reformation including the leadership? Genevan scholars? Multiple well known persons among varied denominations, who have written commentaries, dictionaries, translated whole bibles into other languages (such as the Italian Deodati), and knew the languages is Latin, Syriac, Hebrew, Arabic, etc?

You are more learned than these who have thoroughly studied and wrote whole works on the subject, like the Lutheran Hengstenberg and Melanchthon?

Have you even read their material, which is heavily scripture referenced in multiple languages?

The bible does not say Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. That's blasphemy.

liberty of conscience · Dec 17, 2018

ewq1938 said:
The bible does not say Jesus is also the Archangel Michael. That's blasphemy.

Please explain why? The doctrine, and those cited (Luther, etc) teach that Michael is Jesus is the Son of God, Deity, uncreated/eternal, and the word 'angel' just means messenger ('office', not nature). Michael just another name, like Immanuel, etc. Jesus is the highest messenger sent of the Father.

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