How can you determine which is true?

PaulCyp1 said:

Yes, that's the problem with Protestantism. Any teaching that is found in a particular denomination is contradicted by the teaching of another denomination. And neither of them has any more authority than the other. The will of Jesus Christ was to avoid such a situation. His will concerning His followers was, and still is, "that they all may be ONE, even as I and My heavenly Father are ONE". Which is why He founded one ONE Church, said it was to remain ONE, and promised that ONE Church "The Holy Spirit will guide you into ALL truth", and "Whatsoever you bind upon Earth is bound in Heaven", and "He who hears you hears Me". No such doctrinal confusion occurs in His ONE Church. It remains ONE in belief, ONE in teaching, ONE in worship, ONE in biblical understanding throughout the world after 2,000 years, with no conflicting denominations.

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No offense intended but that ONE Church could be wrong in one or more things. Scripture - not Church - is the ultimate arbiter of truth.

JohnB445 said:

I have seen both views on eternal security. I honestly don't know for sure.

Born Again Pentecostals will say since we have free will, it is possible for man to turn away from God after being saved, and then Born Again Calvinist will say its impossible to fall away once they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit they are eternally secure.

Although I believe we have free will, the idea of one turning away from God after being born again in the future sounds bizarre.

The weight (Importance) of the doctrine of eternal security I figured is low.
If one believes its impossible to fall away once the Holy Spirit indwells and they are born again, it results in an assurance that in the future they will persevere and that they are predestined salvation in the future.

If one believes by free will they can apostatize after being born again, that will result in them being more steadfast in their faith as opposed to absolute comfort when it comes to the future.

Both come up with good arguments, don't know which one.

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Here I give you some personified scriptural references to analyse

Paul said....
2 Timothy 4:10
"For Demas deserted me, because he loved the present age...."

1 Corinthians 5:5
"I(Paul) have decided to hand over such a person to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord".

1 Timothy 1:20
"....Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, in order that they may be taught not to blaspheme..."

Solution:
1 John 5:16-17
"If anyone should see his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he should ask, and he will grant life to him, to those who sin not leading to death. (There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should ask about that. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin not leading to death.)"

GOD bless....

If it helps, I sit in the middle somewhere.

I believe you can lose your salvation not through sin but through apostasy - by willingly, actively, consciously, and knowingly rejecting Jesus as a Christian.

To do such a thing requires tremendous effort and is exceedingly difficult. It's basically a willing decision to turn your back on Christ after you've come to a full knowledge of the truth. It's something like the Pharisees were doing - they turned their back on the saviour even when it appears they knew who He was.

This puts the whole thing firmly into the realm of faith for me, which is why it's not a work. You're not maintaining your salvation, you are simply staying in faith. Sin cannot separate you from God. It's a shipwrecking of your faith - a purposeful decision to ditch faith in Christ - that can. And that is simply not an easy thing to do.

HatGuy said:

If it helps, I sit in the middle somewhere.

I believe you can lose your salvation not through sin but through apostasy - by willingly, actively, consciously, and knowingly rejecting Jesus as a Christian.

To do such a thing requires tremendous effort and is exceedingly difficult. It's basically a willing decision to turn your back on Christ after you've come to a full knowledge of the truth. It's something like the Pharisees were doing - they turned their back on the saviour even when it appears they knew who He was.

This puts the whole thing firmly into the realm of faith for me, which is why it's not a work. You're not maintaining your salvation, you are simply staying in faith. Sin cannot separate you from God. It's a shipwrecking of your faith - a purposeful decision to ditch faith in Christ - that can. And that is simply not an easy thing to do.

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But I wonder if it's really that hard. Pride/self-righteousness is at the heart of it-an all too common human commodity.

HatGuy said:

If it helps, I sit in the middle somewhere.

I believe you can lose your salvation not through sin but through apostasy - by willingly, actively, consciously, and knowingly rejecting Jesus as a Christian.

To do such a thing requires tremendous effort and is exceedingly difficult.

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fhansen said:

But I wonder if it's really that hard. Pride/self-righteousness is at the heart of it-an all too common human commodity.

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What can I do but share my experience?
Pride comes before a fall. Don't wonder, it's impossible for the elect and all too easy for the rest. I recently messaged another member here that had thought he had done the unimaginable. Along with the following, I sent some questions to see what had preceded and how he may have recovered.

This may be a bit much for you or anyone to handle, and I know only God can really help me (if HE wills), so if you are overwhelmed or uncomfortable about replying just say so and I will desist. My name is Jason, and for about 6 months I have not been doing well. The crux of it is very similar to what you were describing about 8 years ago this way:

"A while ago I became a reborn christian. But later I came to a point in my life where I said no to God. After I said no to God all my longing for church and God disappeard. I no longer feel guilt when I sin against God, I even feel joy. And I feel love for evil things. For an example when I see the news I feel love for murderers and so on. My hart is hardened, and I feel evil, even I would never hurt anyone.
I'm sure I have blasphemed the holy spirit. WHen I think about it I don't even worry. I asked myself If I wanted to follow christ, the answer from my heart was no. But on some level I want to. I go to church almost every day."

It would be impossible to share all the things I'm being shown, but until fairly recently I'd been more or less been convinced I was saved by an experience 10 years ago that left me full of love, peace, and trust that God loved me no matter what and had forgiven me all my previous sins (and that was good, but what was bad was that it had taken any fear I had away completely, and, in retrospect, without fear what chance has anyone of being careful how they live? ). Unfortunately, this experience happened entirely outside the contexts of organized religion, and though i started to read the bible and tried attending a few church services that didn't continue long. My pride and foolishness had me believing I must have been very special for God to love me so much, and that most of the churchgoers just seemed like it was the rituals, and their choice to enact them, that saved them (rather than an act of God). And if God was with me everywhere I went then how could I ever leave Him, since He said he would never leave me. So instead of being very thankful, fearful, and understanding that it was a new life, and escape from my old ways, that I was being offered, I was almost immediately being deceived by the thought that He must finally want me to be happy in this life. Long story short, this did not end well; and I've finally come to a place where you may have only thought you were, but I am almost certainly at. And it's only now that I can see I have been hardened and evil, and am disgusted at all the wickedness I have done, and all after the fact. Now, though I have stopped any and all known sin, it seems like it's too little too late. Now I can't be sure if I am able to truly repent, or if my tearful prayers are only out of fear rather than contrition. The parable of the unclean spirit being removed from a man then returning with 7 more more wicked than itself was one I didn't understand at the time of my "second birth" but which has become all too clear now. But there is the likely possibility that you only thought you were being unfaithful, but it was something that brought you back into right relation to your Creator. But I am being shown I have definitely been unfaithful and from the point of Heb 6:4(having been given the taste of heaven) to Heb 10:26 and 12:16-17(having abused grace, but without realizing it or intending to). Now the best case scenario is that I'm being chastised, and the worst case scenario is I'm beyond the point of no return.

JohnB445 said:

I have seen both views on eternal security. I honestly don't know for sure.

Born Again Pentecostals will say since we have free will, it is possible for man to turn away from God after being saved, and then Born Again Calvinist will say its impossible to fall away once they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit they are eternally secure.

Although I believe we have free will, the idea of one turning away from God after being born again in the future sounds bizarre.

The weight (Importance) of the doctrine of eternal security I figured is low.
If one believes its impossible to fall away once the Holy Spirit indwells and they are born again, it results in an assurance that in the future they will persevere and that they are predestined salvation in the future.

If one believes by free will they can apostatize after being born again, that will result in them being more steadfast in their faith as opposed to absolute comfort when it comes to the future.

Both come up with good arguments, don't know which one.

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My question is "why does it matter"?

You can argue theology till the cows come home. In the end.. I have no desire to turn away.
Those that do are going to face God. God, who knows their hearts and what caused them to turn.

Did God not say that "no man will snatch you from my grasp"?

JohnB445 said:

I have seen both views on eternal security. I honestly don't know for sure.

Born Again Pentecostals will say since we have free will, it is possible for man to turn away from God after being saved, and then Born Again Calvinist will say its impossible to fall away once they are born again and sealed by the Holy Spirit they are eternally secure.

Although I believe we have free will, the idea of one turning away from God after being born again in the future sounds bizarre.

The weight (Importance) of the doctrine of eternal security I figured is low.
If one believes its impossible to fall away once the Holy Spirit indwells and they are born again, it results in an assurance that in the future they will persevere and that they are predestined salvation in the future.

If one believes by free will they can apostatize after being born again, that will result in them being more steadfast in their faith as opposed to absolute comfort when it comes to the future.

Both come up with good arguments, don't know which one.

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I would just like to encourage you to read the Scriptures, and pay special attention where they pertain to this issue you're struggling with. Put all the he said she said this denomination this theologian say's to the side, and conscience along with the Holy Spirit be your guide. After you've done this, then you might look into these doctrines through the lens of Christian history or the history of these doctrines and the thoughts of trusted theologians of the past found in commentaries, confessions, etc. There are differences between eternal security, once saved always saved, and perseverance of the Saints. Eternal security actually supports the other two, because it entails whether or not our salvation is secure in Heaven (eternity), whether or not we can/could fall away via free will in Heaven, which I think most would consider absurd, although some might point to the fallen angels as a parallel/example. I personally believe the overall context of Scripture should eventually lead a person in the direction of perseverance of the Saints, not because of anything in them, but because of Christ and His merits, for His sake, for the glory of God.

HatGuy said:

If it helps, I sit in the middle somewhere.

I believe you can lose your salvation not through sin but through apostasy - by willingly, actively, consciously, and knowingly rejecting Jesus as a Christian.

To do such a thing requires tremendous effort and is exceedingly difficult. It's basically a willing decision to turn your back on Christ after you've come to a full knowledge of the truth. It's something like the Pharisees were doing - they turned their back on the saviour even when it appears they knew who He was.

This puts the whole thing firmly into the realm of faith for me, which is why it's not a work. You're not maintaining your salvation, you are simply staying in faith. Sin cannot separate you from God. It's a shipwrecking of your faith - a purposeful decision to ditch faith in Christ - that can. And that is simply not an easy thing to do.

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One can indeed no longer believe and reject what one once believed. However, since you believe you cannot lose your salvation through sin, how do you reconcile Rom 8:13?

bcbsr said:

The issue there is where one's trust gets directed. The Pro-Eternal Security people will direct their trust in the Lord to save them, while the anti-Eternal Security people will tend to put their trust in themselves and their works to maintain their salvation status.

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I don't think this is true at all. I never believed in eternal security, yet I have always put my trust in Jesus for my salvation.

zoidar said:

I don't think this is true at all. I never believed in eternal security, yet I have always put my trust in Jesus for my salvation.

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I believe this is a contradiction. To believe Eternal life is in Christ IS to believe one is eternally secure and forgiven in Him forever. If you are resting in Christ, then you would be fully assured and confident of your security in Him. I believe the statement made by Bcbsr is right on. The doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ stems from unbelief.

Nicolaus Mourer said:

Impossible to be saved again because once a person is already saved, they’re still saved. Everlasting life is just that: it lasts forever from the point of receiving it.

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Hi Nic,
fwiw Eternal Life is a quality of Life, not a length of time.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:1-3

Blessings,
In Him

There are arguments in Scripture for both viewpoints butbitbisnnotvworthvdividingbthe body of Christ over the two doctrine! At least, that’s the way so see it.

JohnB445 said:

The weight (Importance) of the doctrine of eternal security I figured is low.
If one believes its impossible to fall away once the Holy Spirit indwells and they are born again, it results in an assurance that in the future they will persevere and that they are predestined salvation in the future.

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Being secure in one's adoption into God's family is extremely important. Chronic uncertainty about one's eternal destiny, living in constant fear one may lose one's salvation, produces the craven obedience of slaves under a hard and cruel Master, not the joyful obedience of loving sons and daughters. This ought to be of great concern in light of the following:

Matthew 22:36-38
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.

1 John 4:16-19
16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.
17 Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may hav

e boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.
19 We love Him because He first loved us.

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

What is at the bottom of the fear of lost salvation? A desire to please God? No. Self-preservation. It is a concern for one's Self, for one's well-being, that is provoked by the prospect of losing one's salvation. Such a preoccupation, however, is exactly the opposite of what the believer is called to make their central focus: Christ. (Hebrews 12:2-3) Never can a child of God enjoy their Heavenly Father fully when they are at every turn absorbed with keeping Self safe. No, true fellowship with God is only achieved when Self is removed from the throne of one's heart and put to death on the cross of Christ. (Matthew 16:24-25; Galatians 2:20; Galatians 5:24)

JohnB445 said:

If one believes by free will they can apostatize after being born again, that will result in them being more steadfast in their faith as opposed to absolute comfort when it comes to the future.

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Thinking you can undo the work of salvation God initiated (Ephesians 2:4-5; 2 Timothy 2:25), enabled (John 6:44), and maintains (1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Philippians 1:6) is to misunderstand how and unto what one is saved. Yes, the lost person can and must freely choose to be saved but their arrival at the place where this is possible is God's doing, not the product of the lost person's effort. And the eternal work of salvation that God has done no man can undo. Believing one has the power to dismantle God's work, or even to hand it back to Him, is to elevate oneself far above one's place - even, perhaps, above God. With such an inflated sense of one's own importance and power, it is no wonder that so many who take a saved-and-lost view become legalistic, and hypocritical, and icy-cold spiritually.

Kenny'sID said:

Here is one way.

1 Timothy 4:1 - Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

I'd love to hear how the Calvinists explain that is not saying we can lose salvation. Maybe they aren't reading their bibles, or are so deep into denial that their mind just won't allow them to see what is right there in front of them, just as I've seen happen here before. It's really quite creepy.

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I am not a Calvinist but this is what John says about the ones who fall away
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Again I say...if you give your life to Christ, it no longer belongs to you. You gave it to Him. You cannot take it back. That is why He says nothing (not even you) can take you out of His hands.

MDC said:

I believe this is a contradiction. To believe Eternal life is in Christ IS to believe one is eternally secure and forgiven in Him forever. If you are resting in Christ, then you would be fully assured and confident of your security in Him. I believe the statement made by Bcbsr is right on. The doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ stems from unbelief.

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Maybe in theory, but not in real life.

Lutherans for an example are proud to solely trust in Christ for salvation. They are very much against our deeds have anything to do with salvation, yet the vast mayority of Lutherans believe a saved person can fall away.

MDC said:

I believe this is a contradiction. To believe Eternal life is in Christ IS to believe one is eternally secure and forgiven in Him forever. If you are resting in Christ, then you would be fully assured and confident of your security in Him. I believe the statement made by Bcbsr is right on. The doctrine of losing eternal life in Christ stems from unbelief.

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Food for thought. Are you married? If so are you secure in your marriage? If your reasoning is correct, how can you be, since there is always a possibilty of divorce.

1st.. WHY NO ONE IS ASKING ..."until the cows come home" [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] am I the ONLY ONE that asks.. WHO left the gate open? YEAH HELLO!

You know.. before many left Him.. He knew of them the ones that did not believe. Some like to think they(or the one) always believed yet later walked away.. Our brother said "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life, and we have believed, and have come to know, that you are the Holy One of God.”

See this is not of this world. Its not something you or I had a hand in.. Look at Saul then later Paul..You think Paul just ..a it about time I act nicer to the people I KNOW were not of GOD that I killed and what not. No.. something was made NEW..something that was not..something that was dead. Adam and Eve..before and after. Flip it..

When I got saved. I still listen to acid rock music.... No one was telling me to stop. I didnt feel guilty.. I cant explain it.. something in me.. it just stopped.. I have never wanted it back. See.. when you make that choice..what HE not you.. what HE not you what HE started HE WILL FINISH! Can GOD lie?

Stop running with things that are NOT written..didnt say we can want to leave.. haha...ok so lets go look for those cows now

aiki said:

it is no wonder that so many who take a saved-and-lost view become legalistic, and hypocritical, and icy-cold spiritually.

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Based on your conclusion, you are also describing the Apostle Paul since he also took a saved-and-lost view himself. Rom 8:13.

Handmaid for Jesus said:

Again I say...if you give your life to Christ, it no longer belongs to you. You gave it to Him. You cannot take it back. That is why He says nothing (not even you) can take you out of His hands.

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You fail to notice that it only applies to sheep who listen and follow (Jn 10:27). Sheep who are disobedient by not listening and following are not promised that nothing can take them out of His hands.