Pastors and Lamborghinis

W2L · Dec 17, 2018

DamianWarS said:
How can anyone justify spending in excess when there are starving children in the world.

That question will not get answered

Bobber · Dec 17, 2018

Second Coming said:
Exactly. The rich man lived lavishly while Lazarus suffered. That is exactly what the Pastor has done. He’s living lavishly when he could be helping others instead.

Is everything a simple as that? For example Bill Gates it's said gives tremendous amount of money away to charity with the Gates Foundation. What if that rich man about Lazarus wasn't a giver at all? Wouldn't God look upon these two different rich men differently?

BNR32FAN · Dec 17, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
I'm not even discussing charity here. He could be giving 100 million to charity for all I know - this isn't the issue to me.

When the woman put in two pennies into the offering plate she was praised by Jesus, and when the Pharisees put in far more they were shown the woman and her two pennies...

Why? Because they were patting themselves on the back for giving 10% in tithing even on items that tithe was not required on. They had gone above and beyond in service to God, or so they believed so they were proud of what they did.

Yet, God pointed out this old widow woman who gave far far far less than any of them. Why? Because she gave ALL she had to God..

God doesn't require a set dollar amount in tithes under the new covenant, He requires our all, whatever that all is. He requires our trust, our faithfulness in service, our love for all around us, an open door to all. He asks us to go above and beyond in trust in all our ways.

This Pastor might be a terrific guy who gives lots to charity and more.. but the reflection of Christ isn't in material extravagancy on self... the reflection of Christ is in giving, love and sharing, a gift and love and a sharin that's difficult to see when it's being obfuscated by grand homes and luxury cars and other unnecessary material items.

And if your obfuscating the Gift your really not able to say you've giving your all for Christ such as the widow woman and her two pennies.. sometimes self control is required of us, sometimes we just need to ask, is this something Christ would do?

Sometimes just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I don’t see that in the story of the poor widow. I simply see that she had given more than anyone else because she gave all she had. I don’t see Jesus rebuking the others at all. Please correct me if I am mistaken my friend.

“Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins. Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she had to live on.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:41-44‬ ‭

“While Jesus was in the Temple, he watched the rich people dropping their gifts in the collection box. Then a poor widow came by and dropped in two small coins. “I tell you the truth,” Jesus said, “this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them. For they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she has.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:1-4

Joy · Dec 17, 2018

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DamianWarS · Dec 17, 2018

W2L said:
That question will not get answered

we are comfortable in pointing the finger at the ones who live lives beyond our reach but don't want to point out our own failures in the same areas (in case we have to give up something). We may not have Lamborghinis but we all have things that exist out of pure luxury where money could have gone elsewhere to help those in need.

How much is really too much? I have a feeling that our 21st century western mindset on the matter has a very high bar that a 1st century follower of Christ would not be so generous with. These are in the moments just before Christmas and I think we all can appreciate the feeling of spending too much but we tend to sweep it under the Christmas tree skirt and say in the new year we will be better at it.

Rather than wag the finger at the pastor I would rather direct it at myself because I know I am as guilty as him even if it is fraction of a fraction of what he spent.

RDKirk · Dec 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I wouldn’t either. Who wants to boast and give up their treasures in heaven?

Driving a $200,000 sports car is a boast.

Dave L · Dec 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
So then all Christians should have no luxuries only what we need to survive despite how much we give. We should all have the cheapest house, the cheapest car, the cheapest clothes, no television or any other type of entertainment, no jewelry, only what is needed to survive? Where do we draw the line? Can you honestly say this is how you live your life brother?

It depends on how much you love others as yourself..........

BNR32FAN · Dec 17, 2018

RDKirk said:
Driving a $200,000 sports car is a boast.

What about Job who owned 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen, and 500 female donkeys. Was he boasting? Owning an expensive car is not boasting. Did the preacher boast about the car?

RDKirk · Dec 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
What about Job who owned 7,000 sheep, 3,000 camels, 500 teams of oxen, and 500 female donkeys. Was he boasting? Owning an expensive car is not boasting. Did the preacher boast about the car?

Job was neither a Christian nor a leader in the Body of Christ.

Being a leader in the Body of Christ has requirements.

Being Job didn't.

Hazelelponi · Dec 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t see that in the story of the poor widow. I simply see that she had given more than anyone else because she gave all she had. I don’t see Jesus rebuking the others at all. Please correct me if I am mistaken my friend.

“Jesus sat down near the collection box in the Temple and watched as the crowds dropped in their money. Many rich people put in large amounts. Then a poor widow came and dropped in two small coins. Jesus called his disciples to him and said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has given more than all the others who are making contributions. For they gave a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she had to live on.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭12:41-44‬ ‭

“While Jesus was in the Temple, he watched the rich people dropping their gifts in the collection box. Then a poor widow came by and dropped in two small coins. “I tell you the truth,” Jesus said, “this poor widow has given more than all the rest of them. For they have given a tiny part of their surplus, but she, poor as she is, has given everything she has.””
‭‭Luke‬ ‭21:1-4

I'm beginning to feel as if your intentionally misunderstanding my points.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” (Matthew 23:23-26)

Spices were not items that people were obligated to tithe on, so by doing so the Pharisees were doing more than what was required with their tithing. Made them feel good I'm sure to do so.

God wasn't so impressed..for the stated reasons.

FAST FORWARD to the widow. The set up for that was in Luke 20:45-47

If you notice it was while all the people were listening that a condemnation of Pharisees who enjoyed the respect of the people, making grand shows of piety while other more important matters were neglected.

That led to Christ pointing out the widow giving all she had..

We always recognize wealthy donations publicly, usually because the money does big things...Jesus is telling the story to illustrate what God sees as sacrifice. The widow gave all of herself to God without expectation of anything. The wealthy held most of themselves in reserve only giving a portion to God. The scriptures often reference God’s desire that we give all of ourselves and promises we will be taken care of in return. The widow demonstrated by her sacrifice that she holds nothing in material value above God, unlike other Biblical personas like the wealthy man who refused to sell all he had and follow Jesus.

I don't believe all Christians are required to live in abject poverty.. but I do believe all Christians should demonstrate the teachings of Jesus in their lives.

The material/physical Temple has been torn down, and the more weighty Temple now exists. It's up to us whether or not we enter in...

BNR32FAN · Dec 17, 2018

RDKirk said:
Job was neither a Christian nor a leader in the Body of Christ.

Being a leader in the Body of Christ has requirements.

Being Job didn't.

Job was a servant of God. I don’t see any commandments of God to leaders of the church that don’t apply to every Christian.

RDKirk · Dec 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
Job was a servant of God. I don’t see any commandments of God to leaders of the church that don’t apply to every Christian.

Job was not a member of the Body of Christ, which has been given a specific mission in the world and specific instructions in how to carry out that mission, with each member of the Body having a specific role with specific tasks to carry out.

Of course, most Western Christians think being a Christian is like being a passenger on a Caribbean cruise ship, when it's actually more like being a crewman on an aircraft carrier.

And I see a lot of that former pattern of thinking being displayed here.

Bobber · Dec 17, 2018

As for me I wonder why anyone would want a car like this. A lot of people get jealous and some wouldn't hesitate to scrap a key down it's side. Also wherever you go I'm sure there'd always be people standing around your car looking at it. Plus insurance considerations. And wouldn't there be more of a chance it might be subject to theft?

Bobber · Dec 17, 2018

RDKirk said:
Of course, most Western Christians think being a Christian is like being a passenger on a Caribbean cruise ship, when it's actually more like being a crewman on an aircraft carrier.

Good statement but I live in a town with a military base and some of the top brass have some very nice homes.

BNR32FAN · Dec 17, 2018

Hazelelponi said:
I'm beginning to feel as if your intentionally misunderstanding my points.

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel! Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you cleanse the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of extortion and self-indulgence. Blind Pharisee, first cleanse the inside of the cup and dish, that the outside of them may be clean also.” (Matthew 23:23-26)

Spices were not items that people were obligated to tithe on, so by doing so the Pharisees were doing more than what was required with their tithing. Made them feel good I'm sure to do so.

God wasn't so impressed..for the stated reasons.

FAST FORWARD to the widow. The set up for that was in Luke 20:45-47

If you notice it was while all the people were listening that a condemnation of Pharisees who enjoyed the respect of the people, making grand shows of piety while other more important matters were neglected.

That led to Christ pointing out the widow giving all she had..

We always recognize wealthy donations publicly, usually because the money does big things...Jesus is telling the story to illustrate what God sees as sacrifice. The widow gave all of herself to God without expectation of anything. The wealthy held most of themselves in reserve only giving a portion to God. The scriptures often reference God’s desire that we give all of ourselves and promises we will be taken care of in return. The widow demonstrated by her sacrifice that she holds nothing in material value above God, unlike other Biblical personas like the wealthy man who refused to sell all he had and follow Jesus.

I don't believe all Christians are required to live in abject poverty.. but I do believe all Christians should demonstrate the teachings of Jesus in their lives.

The material/physical Temple has been torn down, and the more weighty Temple now exists. It's up to us whether or not we enter in...

I understand what your saying but these are two different teachings. Jesus’ point in Matthew 23 is the Pharisees we’re acting righteous outwardly but inwardly they were deceitful. They were hypocrites. The message of the poor widow is a completely different teaching. The point Jesus was making is that it is not how much we give but that we honor and trust God. It’s about our level of faith and devotion to Him. Jesus didn’t rebuke the others who gave more money than the widow. He simply said even tho she only gave two coins she actually gave more than anyone else. So far I haven’t seen anything indicating that brother John is acting like the Pharisees in this respect and I don’t think it’s fair to him that he should be compared to such people. Would it be better if he came out and boasted about his charity and tithing? I might be completely wrong about brother John but I won’t condemn him or persecute him without knowing the full story. If I knew that he only gave $50,000 in tithes and charity and bought a $200,000 car I would probably agree with you. But so far it appears that no one knows what he has done to honor God and help others and are focusing on the negative aspect saying he could’ve done more. Who here can say they have done all they can and can’t do more to honor God? I would remind everyone Jesus said get the log out of your own eye then you can get the speck out of your brother’s eye. I’m in no position to judge this man. I’m a sinner. Or perhaps I’m wrong and everyone here is righteous.

BNR32FAN · Dec 17, 2018

RDKirk said:
Job was not a member of the Body of Christ, which has been given a specific mission in the world and specific instructions in how to carry out that mission, with each member of the Body having a specific role with specific tasks to carry out.

Of course, most Western Christians think being a Christian is like being a passenger on a Caribbean cruise ship, when it's actually more like being a crewman on an aircraft carrier.

And I see a lot of that former pattern of thinking being displayed here.

Can you please elaborate by showing some scriptures stating this “specific mission” that is not expected of all Christians?

RaymondG · Dec 17, 2018

This guy should be ashamed of himself! I would NEVER buy myself a Lamborghini!

I would rent it for three years and then trade it in for a different car after that. These aren't the type of vehicles you want to keep for long periods of time....unless you are a collector.......

Lost4words · Dec 17, 2018

Oscarr said:
Maybe he should go one further like some American TV evangelists. Buy his own jet plane plus a helicopter. He could use the jet plane for the larger parishes with airports, and the helicopter for the rural churches where he could land right in the front yard!

Or a space shuttle!

RaymondG · Dec 17, 2018

It is not materialistic to buy an expensive car......it can actually be the opposite....It shows that you dont care about hoarding and counting dollars in the bank....you are willing to let it go to get something you can actually use.

It IS materialistic, however, to look at the material possessions of another and then Judge their social or spiritual status based solely on the materials we see with our eyes. We should be able to look pass these materials if, in fact, we are not materialistic and care more about things in heaven, than those on the earth.....

Hazelelponi · Dec 17, 2018

BNR32FAN said:
I understand what your saying but these are two different teachings. Jesus’ point in Matthew 23 is the Pharisees we’re acting righteous outwardly but inwardly they were deceitful. They were hypocrites. The message of the poor widow is a completely different teaching. The point Jesus was making is that it is not how much we give but that we honor and trust God. It’s about our level of faith and devotion to Him. Jesus didn’t rebuke the others who gave more money than the widow. He simply said even tho she only gave two coins she actually gave more than anyone else. So far I haven’t seen anything indicating that brother John is acting like the Pharisees in this respect and I don’t think it’s fair to him that he should be compared to such people. Would it be better if he came out and boasted about his charity and tithing? I might be completely wrong about brother John but I won’t condemn him or persecute him without knowing the full story. If I knew that he only gave $50,000 in tithes and charity and bought a $200,000 car I would probably agree with you. But so far it appears that no one knows what he has done to honor God and help others and are focusing on the negative aspect saying he could’ve done more. Who here can say they have done all they can and can’t do more to honor God? I would remind everyone Jesus said get the log out of your own eye then you can get the speck out of your brother’s eye. I’m in no position to judge this man. I’m a sinner. Or perhaps I’m wrong and everyone here is righteous.

If you don't see those verses in Luke as a rebuke then I can't help you.

As for the log in my eye, I'm not sitting speaking from the lap of luxury, nor am I speaking against wealth - wealth is not a sin.

The Bible makes certain demands upon us as Christians, and one is self control, the other is to be living examples of Christ.

Christ could have stayed with the wealthy Pharisees, certainly everyone expected the Messiah to sit with the scholars of the faith and those of means on a regular basis but instead He chose the sinners, the lowly, the average Joe and gave a message of hope for our salvation.

Look in the Bible for how we aren't to be lover's of money, and how we are supposed to act as Christians, our behavior, and how we are to place nothing in this world before God.

The optics are this man who calls himself a man of God prizes material things when he spends 200,000 on a car. It doesn't show the Messiah to anyone. It shows to the world how being wealthy and having material things is "cool", its not showing the Messiah.

It most certainly doesn't show that he's read in the Bible what an elder and Pastor need to be, let alone fulfills those qualifications.

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