7 crowns versus 10 crowns
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Douggg
anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist
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It says four beasts in the text of Daniel 7. The word five doesn't appear anywhere in the text of Daniel 7.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.
23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first [ten kings, not the first beast], and he shall subdue three kings.
The another is another king - not another beast. The ten kings and the little horn are of the fourth kingdom.
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I believe the sea beast is representing the 10 kings[Divorced Israel/Gentiles] and the land beast is representing Judah/Jerusalem/Levitical Priesthool.
Notice the order of the 7 heads and 10 horns on the dragon:
Revelation 12:3
And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great red Dragon,
with seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads seven diadems
And the woman, Jerusalem.
Revelation 17:3
So he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness.
And I saw a Woman sitting on a scarlet Beast
which was full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
Why are the 10 kings hating the Harlot/Jerusalem?
Revelation 17:16
“And the ten horns/kings which you saw on[fn] the beast, these will hate the Harlot,
make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
How do we know it is Jerusalem? Because Ezekiel 8:3 tells us and the Jews:
"BEHOLD! YOUR HOUSE IS LEFT TO YE DESOLATE/A WILDERNESS!"
Ezekiel and John taken into wilderness
Allusions in Revelation from Old Testament
Ezekiel 8:3
He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem,
to the door of the north gate of the inner court, where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy. [Revelation 17:3]
Here is Daniel 7.
[Daniel is only mentioned in 2 verses of the entire NT and that concerning the AoD.........]
Daniel 7 (NKJV)
Daniel 7
7 “After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet.
It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns.
20 “and the ten horns that were on its head, and the other horn which came up, before which three fell, namely, that horn which had eyes and a mouth which spoke pompous words, whose appearance was greater than his fellows.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them;
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.
Mat 24:15
“Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,'[fn] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mar 13:14
“So when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,'[fn] spoken of by Daniel the prophet,[fn] standing where it ought not” (let the reader understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Will comment more later after I study more of the posts by other members.......
.
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Go back and re read your posts. In post #15 you stated:
When I asked where you got that definition from you then switched to:
Correct it was written in Greek. Since it appears we disagree on the definition of "ore" in revelation 17:9, I believe it means mountain, but you believe it means "one who arises from a plain", can you provide scripture outside of revelation 17:9 where "ore" doesn't mean mountain? How about is there any secular greek writings that use "ore" not to mean mountain?
We don't agree on the definition of ore, so you can provide scripture or secular greek writings, where the greek word "ore" ever does NOT mean mountain?
I agree. It's hard to have a discussion with someone who changes the definition of words to suit their theories.
You use a lot of personal interpretation, so I would disagree that you see it very clearly.
In your post #15, you stated "oros" means ONE WHO arises above the plain. Strong's does not say that. you added "ONE WHO" to arises above the plain. Can you provide any greek commentaries that interpret "oros" as ONE WHO arises above the plain?
Finally, a good argument supported by scripture references. Babylon was on a plain, not really mountainous, so calling Babylon a destroying mountain isn't literal, but must be symbolic for something.
Jeremiah 51:25 Behold, I am against you, O mount of destruction, declares the Lord, which destroys the whole earth;
Hebrew words for destroying mountian: Mashchit (4889) = ruin or destruction
Har (2022) = mountain or hill
Interesting enough the same Hebrew words are used in 2 kings to describe the mount of olives.
2 kings 23:13 And the king defiled the high places that were east of Jerusalem, to the south of the mount of destruction, which Solomon the king of Israel had built for Ashtoreth the abomination of the Sidonians, and for Chemosh the abomination of Moab, and for Milcom the abomination of the Ammonites.
So I would associate the term mount of destruction with idolatry.
I would partially agree. The destruction of Babylon the type, the destruction of harlot Israel in 70 ad the anti-type.
I absolutely agree.
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It's a little hypocritical that you shake your head. One person states 7 hills are rome, even though scripture does not say they are rome, making it a personal interpretation. You state they mountains represent kingdoms, even though scripture does not say they are kingdoms, making it a personal interpretation.
Yes, I will believe the angel's interpretation that the 7 heads where the woman sits are mountains over your interpretation that they are not mountains.
Please post supporting scripture, otherwise it just appears to be personal interpretation.
Jerusalem is defined as the great city in revelation 11.
There is only one great city mentioned in revelation.
I also pray and study and ask for the guidance of the Holy Spirit when studying hard passages. I don't think you're the only one that does that.
most people, that I am aware of, are not mind readers. So supporting scripture often helps opinions on interpretations.
RT what is the definition of a mountain?
based on this response, I would disagree with you.
Oh, that's how you get around all the empires that have existed in the middle east after the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. Just add a gap.
People like me just want scriptural supports for claims, not just personal interpretations without any evidence.
the gap is a false doctrine.
It's interesting that you call angels interpreting visions, false flags.
I don't think you know what personal interpretation is.
I will give you one of my personal interpretation to help you understand.
I believe Daniel 8's little horn to be Antiochus Epiphanes. Now, scripture doesn't explicitly state anywhere that the little horn of Daniel 8 is Antiochus Epiphanes. Only based on the surrounding context, and 1 and 2 Maccabees, and how it lines up perfectly with history, do I support my belief that the little horn of Daniel 8 is Antiochus. However, because Daniel 8 does not explicitly state the identity of the little horn is Antiochus epiphanies, this would be a personal interpretation.
You are doing the same thing. The heads of the beast are NOT explicitly defined as Egypt, Assyria, Babylone, etc. but you believe they are based on your interpretation. this would be a personal interpretation.
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The great Earthquake of Revelation 16:18 occurs on the land of Israel, not Italy
Great earthquake (NKJV)
Ezekiel 6:2
2 “Son of man, set your face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them,
3 “and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, to the hills, to the ravines, and to the valleys: “Indeed I, even I, will bring a sword against you, and I will destroy your high places.
Ezekiel 36:1
“And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, ‘O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the LORD!
Ezekiel 38:19
“For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken:
‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel,
Here He is speaking to the mountains as if they could hear:
Micah 6:2
Hear, O you mountains, the LORD's complaint, And you strong foundations of the land;
For the LORD has a complaint against His people,
And He will contend with Israel.
Revelation 16:18
And there were noises and thunderings and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake,
such a mighty and great earthquake as had not occurred since men were on the land.
Isaiah 29:6
You will be punished by the LORD of hosts
With thunder and earthquake and great noise,
With storm and tempest
And the flame of devouring fire.
.
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I posted the jews believed Herod the great and Pontius were kings and rulers of the earth. I then posted Acts 4, which has Jews, who are a part of the 1st century church, stating this truth.
Apparently you didn't read the verse I used to support the claim because you stated the following in response:
Notice both chest AND arms of silver
Daniel 2:32 its chest and arms were silver
Notice both belly AND thighs are bronze
Daniel 2:32 its belly and thighs were bronze
Notice both Legs AND feet have iron
Daniel 2:33 its legs of iron, its feet partly of iron and partly of clay
The addition of the clay in the feet is a description of the 4th kingdom and the angel explains why:
Daniel 2:42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
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we aren't given any specific names, so any names that we apply would be personal interpretation.
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this is definitely interesting considering the beast of the sea has 10 horns: 10 tribes and the beast from the land as 2 horns: 2 tribes. A possible explanation, one that I would lean toward.
revelation 17:12 might be the key to the difference in crowns between the dragon and beast
Revelation 17:12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but will receive one hour of authority as kings, along with the beast.
The horns do not have crowns yet when the dragon goes after the woman to kill her infant and thrown stars down with its tail. the crowns are on the 7 heads.
Revelation 12:3 Then another sign appeared in heaven: a huge red dragon with seven heads, ten horns, and seven royal crowns on his heads.
When the beast rises out of the sea to persecute the holy people for 42 months, the crowns are now instead on the horns
Revelation 13:1 Then I saw a beast with ten horns and seven heads rising out of the sea. There were ten royal crowns on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads.
This would indicate the horns, now have authority at this point for 1 hour with the beast. in revelation 12, the 10 kings had not yet received a kingdom, but by revelation 13 they received authority with the beast to wage war against the lamb and his people.
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Revealing Times
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Each Head represents a Beast Kingdom so they are indeed Beast Heads.
The E.U. will be the Little Horn and his 10 Kings, Rome Suffered the Mortal Wound. The Little Horn is called the Beast thus he's the 5th of the book of Daniel. It doesn't matter if you see it or not brother, nothing is going to change. He comes OUT OF the Fourth Beast.
You might need to use common sense here brother Douggg. It doesn't call the 3rd and 4rth Beasts Greece and Rome either. This is not that hard when its explained, I wish I had someone explain it to me without all of that time reading and praying. Of course you have some Roman Emperor coming back to life...
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Revealing Times
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BOTH THESE SENTENCES ARE WHAT YOU REFERRED TO...
"""Revealing Times said: ↑
The Scriptures say OROS (Greek word) which means ONE WHO ARISES ABOVE THE PLANE"""
VERSES:
"""Revealing Times said: ↑
And yes, it clearly states this OROS..........a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain)...."""
Ever heard of paraphrasing from memory ? There is ZERO DIFFERENCE in the two quotes in all reality. ONE WHO Arises above the plane {plain}
a mountain as LIFTING (same as arises) above the plain...........I have already told you that Mountains can mean Kingdoms or Kings and proven that to you in another post !! So of course I am giving you ONE THAT ARISES above the plain because I am telling you what it means, the very next verse tells us it's KINGS !! Since Mountains are shown many times as Kingdoms and Kings I am cutting to the chase.............not chasing ghosts. I know what it means, I know it's about the 7 Beast Kingdoms who ruled over Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region and I know why were are given the whole 7 KINGS with 5 who have FALLEN..........ONE IS and one WILL COME means what ? That #6 will eventually FALL also leading eventually to #7. As we see in Revelation 19:20 (and Daniel 7:11) the Little Horn/Anti-Christ/Beast is cast into hell or FALLS ALSO............We need 7 Kings who FALL to get the gist of what God is trying to show us, he LAST BEAST will be the ONLY BEAST who both ARISES & FALLS.
The reason we are given the 7 Kings is so we know the last Beast is a man just like Rev. 13 says, it's the number of a MAN/666. We need to look for A MAN...........Not a Kingdom per se !! You are getting caught up in semantics brother.
It is often used for Kingdom/Kings and here in the book of Revelation we are in the greatest ever book of symbology. The very NEXT VERSE tells us they are ALSO KINGS !! I just can't figure out why this is difficult to understand to be honest, except of course I do know. People have to protect their Men's Traditions, this of course means a CITY on 7 Hills which in some people's minds is Rome and in other cases it's seen as Jerusalem, even though in reality it means NEITHER !! So it blows up their eschatology, so it can't be what it really is because that defeats peoples eschatology. PEOPLE NEED A BLANK MIND.
No, you just fail to understand what Mountains mean in scripture, thus I gave you what it means in Rev. 17. You not understanding how it's used throughout the bible isn't contingent on me knowing how it's used, when you see my facts about how Mountains are used it might help you out.
Again, I am telling you how it's used in that verse and why....in the very next verse it says they are also 7 King's it goes from Kingdoms to Mountains to KINGS and you don't get the transfer that was made in the passage, what can I say ? But when I tell you this is happening you say "I am changing the meaning" No, I am just telling you it's not referring to Mountains but instead to Kings......I have been doing Revelation and Daniel studies for many, many years, it's not my first rodeo on symbologies brother.
You know nothing about me and I personally don't know anything about you. Some people just aren't called to prophecy, that's a fact. Some people pick things up quick, some it takes a long time, we are all unique individuals in God. The reason I told you to always try the spirits is to not believe everything you hear. But you have to have a BLANK MIND and then God can teach you, that of course describes us all, but we in Prophecy have learned that over the years.
Explained above.......
But if we are talking Prophecy we are supposed to know these things so I just assume prophecy guys have read all of the Major Prophets in full. Rev. 17 is really easy because it tells us it's about 7 Kings, 5 who have fallen etc. etc. etc. It tells us in the very next verse who arose above the plains, 7 Kings. I challenge you to do your own studies with a blank mind, God will show you.
So I can't just tell you my conclusions I need to show you my blueprints ?
Cheers.........even though I quit drinking 31 years ago I feel like a rootbeer is in order.
Finnish up later.........Coffee time, gotta go brew some Espresso.
God Bless.
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Revealing Times
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If you ever looked at my thread here on Babylon you might understand my frustration. It seems people repeat the same mistakes over and over as per eschatology.
Babylon, The Harlot and the Seven Headed Beast Explained
The first couple of paragraphs in that thread kinda point to what you spoke of above.....
2 paragraphs of Old Blog:
I blogged a blog eight months ago and in the blog I stated that Rev. 17:18 was speaking of Rome,(from my perspective) within two months the Holy Spirit had revealed to me who Babylon was/is, who the Beast is and who the Harlot is. My opinion is my opinion, I never allow it to supersede God's revelation, in other words I do not hold on to the pride of my opinion. If you want to know who the Harlot, Beast and Babylon is read on.
To start with it is not a City, it is not Rome, Babylon proper, Jerusalem, NYC, it is not the RCC, Mecca or America. HINT: The Harlot and Babylon are two different entities. There is also NO MYSTERY BABYLON, I do not understand why we continue to say this, the Angel in 17:7 says this: Rev. 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel ? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
.......................................................................
In other words, I spent months studying and was convinced that Rev. 17:18 was Rome, I was strutting with confidence. Then, just like that, I am spoken to by the Spirit saying, YOU ARE WRONG !! I had to rewrite my blog that I spent months on. It's called hearing that small still voice. Do you know why that happened ? As I was reading the bible, I saw something and the Holy Spirit moved me, I saw the part where it says this............
18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.
And I understood in a flash, it's not about verse 18, it's about what John SAW in the vision, then I relooked and the whole vision is only FOUR VERSES, 3-6. So what did John SEE ?
He saw a Woman with the name BABYLON THE GREAT tattooed/imprinted on her forehead. That was just one of Four Descriptions on her forehead. Each description describes who the Harlot is, and it' not Rome, Jerusalem or Babylon proper. It is about a Woman who is described to a tee as ALL FALSE RELIGION.......BIRTHPLACE Babylon.......Mother of Harlots/False Religion.......and of course False Religion is an ABOMINATION unto God..........And it was a Mystery, but the Angel explained the MYSTERY UNTO US in verses 8-18, after telling us in verse 7 he was going to explain the Mystery. It is the Harlot False Religions who have always RIDEN THE BACK of these False Government Beasts who always follow Satan. The Harlot Rides the Beast !!
I didn't study for months, write a blog, and intend to go back and say, hey guys, I am pulling this blog and replacing it, I WAS WRONG !! No one intends to ever do that, but if we are willing to be wrong we can learn from God via humility, if my head was in the clouds and I had this great pride, I would have never heard the Spirit telling me, Ron, YOU ARE WRONG !!
Its OK being wrong, it means God is correcting us, the one who knows everything is taking the time to TEACH US !! How fabulous brother !!
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Revealing Times
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But it's still all about Kings, OROS is used to reduce the Kingdoms to Kings who have arisen and then fallen. There is a specific reason God told the Angel to do this, it is brilliant, but then again God is all knowing. The Last Beast will be THE ONLY BEAST to both Arise and Fall over a Beast Kingdom that Beasts over Israel, thus instead of calling the Kingdom a Beast we call THE MAN a Beast see Daniel 7:11 and Revelation 19:20...........The Beast is killed and cast into hell. (Kingdoms aren't cast into hell)
These scriptures are self evident, but I digress....I don't like posting scriptures, it's a waste of time, we are supposed to know them, especially these prophetic scriptures, but it's all good, I guess I think since I know them others should, but I should be more patient in reality.
Rev. 17:18 And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth. {So what did John SEE ? Let's look......the total vision is 4 verses }
Rev. 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
5 And upon her forehead was a name written, Mystery, Babylon The Great, The Mother Of Harlots And Abominations Of The Earth.
6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
1.) In the first verse above (verse 3) we see that the Harlot (False Religion) sat upon the Beast (Apollyon = the Scarlet Colored Beast) thus she was in each Beast Kingdom, from Babylon to Rome, but False Religion (The Harlot) flourished in Babylon over all of the Kingdoms, Babylon was known for its false deities, it gave us the Horoscope and the Mystery Religions that spread unto all the world.
2.) In verse 4 she is shown as a Religious Entity via the Colors, but as a Harlot via the gold, silver etc. etc. We see this picture in Daniel chapter 5, the MENE, MENE, TEKEL chapter that shows Babylon falling to Persia, God took the Kingdom from Belshazzar because he and his court drank from the gold and silver cups/chalices from the Temple of God thus the ABOMINATIONS !!
3.) In verse 5 we see the Harlot is described via FOUR DESCRIPTORS on her forehead. Mystery, Babylon the Great, Mother of Harlots and Abominations of the Earth. This describes the Harlot which is ALL FALSE RELIGION.......So False Religion was a MYSTERY, but the Angel showed us who the Harlot and the Beast were in Rev. 17:8-18........Babylon the Great is where she flourished and was at her zenith !! She was most grand in Babylon........Of course she was the Mother of all False Religions since it was the place God had to confuse the tongues at.......and False Religion is an Abomination unto God.
4.) In verse 6 we see that she has the blood of both THE SAINTS.......AND......THE MARTYRS of Jesus on her hands, meaning she has been around from times of old.
So what did John SEE ? He saw a False Religious Harlot co-mingled with Government Beasts who Apollyon the Demon was over, and it all started in Babylon, thus THAT GREAT CITY being spoken of in Rev. 17:18 is the Wicked City of Babylon, which now represents the Dark Kingdoms of all the earth under Satan, and I CAN PROVE THIS via Scriptures in Rev. 16 as per Armageddon.
{If you would have just clicked onto my Babylon thread on this site you could have seen this....My Blueprints to why I see this as such. I am not just guessing brother, but you want to see, I dig it. Remember, there were MANY Great Cities, Damascus, Jerusalem, Rome, Babylon etc. etc.}
Rev. 16:19 And the great city(Jerusalem/EARTHQUAKE) was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell {Babylon FALLS} and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
So who are the CITIES of the Nations that Fall ? The ones that God Almighty calls GREAT BABYLON in verse 19, who receives the Wrath of God's Winepress (Revelation 14:18-20). Let's look back to vial #6 to find out, it actually tells us who they are, then we will know who God sees as Babylon !
Rev. 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
So who does God see as Babylon in verse 19 ? The ones He gives the Wrath unto !! Lets look !!
The Kings of the East I see as Iraq and Iran which represent the first two Beasts. Not China, God is painting a Masterpiece here, wait for it. We have without saying the Beast and hs 10 Kings who are from the European Union IMHO, and thus we get both Rome and Greece (the other 2 Beasts), then we get the grand finale that explains it all in verse 14.
The Spirits of Devils from the Dragon, Beast (Anti-Christ) and False Prophet (Jewish High priest in my opinion) go forth unto the KINGS/LEADERS of the WHOLE WORLD !!! This is why I say Babylon is the WHOLE WORLD, the scriptures say so.
So we have THE NATIONS that come against God/Jesus at the battle of Armageddon being called GREAT BABYLON in Rev. 16:19, and God/Jesus DEFEATS THEM........And gives them His Wrath. So who is Babylon ? Satan's Dark Kingdom on Earth, all men who follow him = Babylon, they are CONFUSED thus the root word Babel means Confusion. Satan has deceived the masses and thus God sees them as Babylon, and thus when He defeats them he calls them Babylon.
In Rev. 14 we see Babylon FALLS.............Rev. 14 ends with Armageddon also. Rev. 18 is Babylon or the WHOLE WORLD being hit with the Seal, Trumpet and Vial Judgments !! Thus Babylon FALLS.
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Revealing Times
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This is how we go down wrong rabbit holes. There are MANY Great Cities, that should be self evident. The Major Cities of the day were described as Great Cities. We can't pigeonhole God's vocabulary.
Not so, in Revelation 16:19 we see Great Babylon....in Rev. 17:18 we see Great City in which Babylon is being spoken of in verses 3-6. Revelation is about Holy vs. unholy. So we get Jerusalem vs. Babylon as per the Great battles between Satan and God, it's like prose. God is not going to burn Jerusalem just before Jesus returns to reign from Jerusalem brother. The WHOLE WORLD (Babylon) is what burns, 1/3 of the trees and all the grasses of the WHOLE WORLD Burn, Babylon is a Metaphor for Satan's Kingdom on earth !! Babylon will fall, and Jesus will take over.
Babylon is the HEAD OF GOLD !!
But I do know how to hear "YOU ARE WRONG" from God....It's very important we understand how to hear that voice brother. We get tunnel vision, I was called to Prophecy and in a rut for about 20-25 years until I understood why I was in the rut. God couldn't teach me because I had all the answers I got them from other men !! So I couldn't hear the full truth, it blocked out the true voice of God from being able to teach me Prophetic uttering's, now I could hear the Gospel of Christ etc. etc. because those are always God reaching our hearts. But these deep, hidden things I seemed to be blocked on, not totally of course, but I am saying it seemed I reached a dead end, and God never stops teaching us new things. I had to deprogram myself. I once believed the Pope was probably the False Prophet also, that was something that had to be deprogrammed, there is no truth to it at all.
I get you brother, I shoulda done the grunt work. I been feeling down with my diabetes, sorry.
I think I have covered this above.......God's transitioning from Kingdoms to Kings.
Passages have to be put together and mesh like the Rev. 16:19 scripture meshes with Vial #6. I have a knack for it brother, ever since I went with the BLANK MIND approach it seems like things are just flooding in. I can't explain it, it seems God wants clay to mold, so a blank mind is kinda like fresh clay....that is the only way I can explain it, I get things now, BOOM, BOOM BOOM.
No, that is a fact brother. Remember, everything in the Old Testament is about Israel. The Beasts from the Sea thus oppressed Israel, many times for God's own purposes. God used them as a stick to try and correct Israel. Why do you think Ezekiel prophesies that Israel will be as Dead Men's Bones for nigh 2000 years, and then God will breathe life back into them and raise those bones back to life as a Nation in the latter times ? How can there be a BEAST OVER Israel if there is no Israel? It's God's viewpoint, not ours here. Israel were as Dead.
This is why we get the Mortal Wound of the Seven Headed Beast, one of the heads is as wounded, the Beast stops Beasting over Israel because they are as Dead Men's Bones in God's eyes. The Church Age is inserted by God, the gates of hell can't prevail against the Church. The Beast is thus dormant in the Mediterranean Sea Region as per oppressing Israel for nigh 2000 years. When Israel is REBORN, and the Church is Raptured, then and only then can the BEAST ARISE again when Jesus allows it by opening the First Seal. Then the Beast goes forth conquering and to Conquer, he comes against Jerusalem/Israel and the MANY NATIONS in the Mediterranean Sea Region all at once, reneging on his former Agreements (Covenants only mean Agreements).
There are gaps in Israel's existence in God's eyes. That is why if we take out the Church Age guess what happens !! This is so brilliant by God. The Statue fits together perfectly, the BEASTS also fit together perfectly. Israel's punishment fits perfectly, she must repent by the 70th Week, God thus inserted the Church Age and the 70th week was put off, after the Rapture of the Church the 70th week will begin, Israel will thus repent in that last 7 year period, at least 1/3 do anyway. The Church is in Heaven, marrying the Lamb (see Rev. 19) during that time, Amen.
Yea, I can tell, to start with I thought you might be trolling, but no one reads and answers all of these replies just to troll someone. I find a lot of atheists on certain sites who sneak in and troll, plus I am on some debate religion sites, Disqus and Quora etc. etc. So my apologies there.
It's actually not a gap theory brother, it's a fact. Why would Gabriel give Daniel THREE DIFFERENT PROPHECIES ? A 7 x 7 and 62 x 7 and a 1 x 7. It's not one prophecy, its three prophecies !! You see it as a Gap, God sees it as THREE PROPHECIES !! Jesus died and there was one week left to be fulfilled. It is about Israel however not the Church.
Only when men interpret what they interpreted wrongly.
There is a Holy Spirit brother, when He confirms something as true we are supposed to know it. I understand what a personal belief is, when the Spirit confirms something it is a totally different thing. Just like the Little Horn of Daniel 8, the Spirit specificaly has shown me/confirmed to me he is the End Time Anti-Christ, via history I PERSONALLY THINK Jason was the forerunner to the False Prophet, thus I think the False Prophet will likewise be a High Priest, I can't prove this, but I believe it to be so, it seems the Holy Spirit is guiding me this way, but he has not confirmed it to me yet.
The Little Horn being the coming Anti-Christ IS CONFIRMED by Scriptures in Daniel ch. 8. He comes against the Prince of princes (Jesus) who DESTROYS him WITHOUT HAND just like the ROCK in Dan. ch. 2 destroys the Statue (WITHOUT HAND), meaning Jesus SPEAKS VICTORY by the Sword of his Mouth or the Holy Spirit. The Daniel chapter 8 Little Horn also matches the Rev. 13 Beast.
The Heads of the Beast are most certainly defined brother, all one has to do is compare Rev. ch. 13 with Dan. ch. 7. God's not trying to confuse us, that's why he uses Old Testament verbiage 289 times out of the 404 verses in the book of Revelation.
NOTICE THE COMPARISONS OF VERBIAGE: I will add in some Dan. 8 verbiage that matches!
Dan. 7:2 Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea. 3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
Rev. 13:1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
{{{ The Beasts in both instances arise from the great [mediterranean] Sea. Both speak of 10 Horns, one speaks of the Little Horn but the other doesn't, WHY ? Because one of the 7 Heads is the Little Horn, else there would be 11 Horns not 10 (ever thought of that ? Ever wondered where the missing Little Horn is ? We have to do these things). One has Seven Heads the other is called Four Beasts, in both cases they arise from the Sea. }}}
Dan. 7:4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings:......5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear,........6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard,....7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth:
and it had ten horns. 8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
Rev. 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power(Dan. 8:24 Matches this), and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death (Rome, there was NO BEAST after Rome over Israel); and his deadly wound was healed {The Anti-Christ becomes THE BEAST when he Conquers Jerusalem and MANY Nations in the Region} and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
{{{ So let's compare scriptures here, we have both Dan. 7 and Rev. 13 speaking about Beasts from a Sea and they both mention the Lion, Leopard and Bear telling us it's the same Beasts !! One has a Fourth Beast that is fierce (Rome) and the other has a Head that suffers a Mortal Wound, and we know there was NO ISRAEL to Beast over after the Jews were dispersed, and the Church turned Rome from a Beast into THE CENTER of Christendom !! So as per A BEAST Rome suffered the Mortal Wound. How do we know Rome was the Mortal Wound for sure ? The Anti-Christ by CONQUERING Jerusalem/Israel becomes THE BEAST which has not been around for nigh 2000 years, thus he is the one that HEALED THE WOUND by Beasting over Israel, remember, this is a FIGURATIVE SEVEN HEADED BEAST !! A collective of Nations/Kingdoms that Beasted over Israel.
Dan. 7 and Rev. 13 has 10 Horns, but there is no Little Horn in Rev. 13 thus he has to be one of the Seven Beast Heads !! Of course, Eureka !! The Dragon gave him his power, Daniel 8:24 says his power shall be MIGHTY but not by his own power !! In Dan. 7 this MAN/Beast has Eyes and speaks Blasphemous things against God as does the Beast in Rev. 13. We see he rules for 42 Months in Rev. 13 which is a Time, times and a half [time], as Daniel 7:25 says will happen. }}}
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
{{{ We see here that this end time Beast will wear out the Saints and rule for 42 Months. }}}
Dan. 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
{{{ This Little Horn in Daniel ch. 8 is also the coming Anti-Christ/Beast. It happens in the LATTER TIME when mankind's transgressions are come full, or God's Bowls of Wrath are filled up/overflowing. He has a fierce countenance, AND understands DARK SENTENCES meaning how to solve riddles and conundrums. He gets power from Satan (Not of himself) who gives him his power and seat (Rev. 13). He will demand to be worshiped as God (Magnifies himself) and via PEACE destroys MANY [Nations] just as Dan. 9:27 and Dan. 11:40-43 says !! And lastly he fights against Jesus (Prince of princes) and is defeated without hands by the Holy Spirit. }}}
So we know the Beasts of Dan. 7 are the same as the ones mentioned in Rev. 13. We also see the 10 Horns but don't see the Little Horn, telling us he is one of the 7 Heads, we know this because both Daniel 7:11 and Revelation 19:20 tells us the Little Horn is a BEAST who is CAST into hell fire. The reason Jesus/John gives us the Bear/Leopard/Lion is so we know its the same Beasts, whereas Daniel saw them coming up as individual Beasts, John was shown these Beasts for the ENTITY THEY ARE, ruled by Satan (Rev. 13) and Apollyon (Rev. 17) and thus the LAST BEAST HEAD (Rev. 13) is a MAN who brings this figurative Seven Headed Beast back to life. Since we know Rev. 13 are all EARTHLY KINGS we understand all 7 had to have Conquered, Enslaved or Ruled over Israel in order to have been a Beast, thus we only have to look to Rev. 17 and see that FIVE HAD FALLEN in order to figure out who they are. Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece.........and Rome of course WAS.........And of course the coming Anti-Christ or End Time Beast is the Dan. 7, Dan. 8 Little Horn.
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Correct
maybe don't paraphrase definitions of words, especially when the paraphrase is not the definition of the word.
There is huge difference. Adding "ONE WHO", which is not in the definition, changes the actual meaning of the word from the definition of a mountain to a person (one who).
You do understand that this: (as lifting itself above the plain), is the literal definition of a mountain right?
I agree, that is the definition or ore (mountain)
You're not cutting to the chase, your adding to scripture. The angel simply defines the heads as mountains upon whom the harlot sits and kings. anything other than that is personal interpretation.
Again, we disagree on the meaning of ore in revelation 17:9. I believe it means mountain, you believe it means "one who arises above a plain". So in order to prove your point, just provide any scripture or greek writings that use "ore" as not meaning an actual mountain.
in the mean time, i'll post evidence of "ore" meaning mountain. The exact word for mountain in revelation 17:9 is "ore". It's used only 6 other times in the NT. Each time it means mountain
Matthew 18:12 What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go in search of the one that went astray
Mark 13:14 But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Matthew 24:16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
Luke 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it,
1 Corinthians 13:2 if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing
Revelation 16:20 20And every island fled away, and no mountains were to be found
I know exactly how its used. Ore means montains, exactly as strong defines it and how it's used in scripture. But you are changing the definition of a word to suit your own theories. Because of this the burden of proof comes on you. If you don't want to provide any evidence of why you changed the definition of a word, that's on you, and the readers can clearly see that.
Should I just trust that snake oil can cure all my diseases or should I ask for proof?
the angel interprets the heads as mountains and as kings. you on the otherhand say they are not mountains. I'll stick with the angel's interpretation over yours.
Revelation 17:9 calls for a mind with wisdom: the seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman is seated
You added "one who" to the definition. So yes, you did change it.
I agree
And I am testing your "spirit" of understanding prophecy. As you should you mine.
I agree. I would add especially on those that don't provide scriptural evidence for their claims.
You know what assuming does
But in reality not everyone agrees with your interpretation, so providing scripture can help us see where you are getting your ideas from.
Correct. Teaching people scripture involves using actual scripture, not just opinions.
Cheers.........even though I quit drinking 31 years ago I feel like a rootbeer is in order.
Finnish up later.........Coffee time, gotta go brew some Espresso.
God Bless.
At least we can agree on something
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revelation only mentions 1 great city
God only provided 1 great city in revelation.
Babylon the great is the woman riding on the beast
Babylon the great is written on the forehead of the woman
Revelation 17:5 And on her forehead was written a name of mystery: “Babylon the great, mother of prostitutes and of earth’s abominations
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Kings and dwellers of the earth have become drunk and committed sexual immorality with the woman
Revelation 17:2 with whom the kings of the earth have committed sexual immorality, and with the wine of whose sexual immorality the dwellers on earth have become drunk
Kings and naitons of the earth have become drunk and committed sexual immorality with the Babylon the great
Revelation 18:3,9 3For all nations have drunka the wine of the passion of her sexual immorality,
and the kings of the earth have committed immorality with her, Then the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her will weep
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The woman is the great city
Revelation 17:18 And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.”
Babylon is the great city
revelation 18:21 “So will Babylon the great city be thrown down with violence, and will be found no more;
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The woman killed the saints and martyrs of Jesus
Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints, the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
Babylon the great killed the saints
Revelation 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all who have been slain on earth.”
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The woman is dressed in purple, scarlet, gold, precious stones, and pearls
revelation 17:4 And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls
Babylon the great city is dress in purple, scarlet, gold precious stones, and pearls
Revelation 18:16 Woe, woe to the great city, clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls!
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It cannot be any clearer based on the descriptions of the woman and Babylon the great provided in scripture, that they are one in the same. The woman, who is Babylon the great, is the great city.
So how do we determine the identity of this great city? Using scripture to interpret scripture
The great city is where Jesus was crucified- Jerusalem
Revelation 11:8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.
Luke 13:33 Nevertheless, I must keep going today and tomorrow and the next day, for it is not admissible for a prophet to perish outside of Jerusalem.
Babylon the great/the great prostitute was responsible for the blood of God's servants. Since Jesus told Jerusalem that ALL the righteous blood shed on the earth would come upon their generation, we know that that first century Jerusalem = Babylon the great/the great prostitute.
Revelation 18:24 And there was found in her the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who had been slain on the earth
revelation 19:2 For His judgments are true and just. He has judged the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her immorality. He has avenged the blood of His servants that was poured out by her hand.”
Matthew 23:34-36 Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.
There is only 1 great city in revelation and it is Jerusalem.
False, that is not the definition of a mountain
In fact, God did destroy Jerusalem upon his coming down from heaven.
The parable of the wicked tenants: When the vineyard owner RETURNS, he would destroy the wicked tenants who killed his son.
Matthew 21:40-41 Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard RETURNS, what will he do to those tenants?” “He will bring those wretches to a wretched end,” they declared, “and will rent out the vineyard to other tenants who will give him his share of the fruit at harvest time.”
The parable of the wedding feast. The king would kill the original wedding guests who murdered his servants.
Matthew 22:7 The king was enraged. He sent his troops to destroy those murderers and burn their city.
Immediately after the great tribulation of Jerusalem which resulted in the destruction of the temple, the son of man would come on the clouds.
Matthew 24:29-30 Immediately after the tribulation of those days: ‘The sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.’b At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven
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According to the angel, Daniel's people and holy city had 70 weeks for 6 things to be accomplished.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) stop their transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to make atonement for iniquity, 4.)to bring in everlasting righteousness,5.) to seal up vision and prophecy, 6. and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
If one is going to insert gaps, then the 6 items of Daniel 9:24 must be accomplished within the 70 prophetic weeks. I'll give you a story to help explain:
I tell you I promise to build you a house in 12 months. I then proceed to work on the house one month out of the year (let's say june) with 11 month gaps of "no work" in between the junes. It takes me 12 years (12 junes) to finish your house. Now, even though the house was finished in 12 years, technically my promise was true, as I built the house in 12 months (12 junes).
This same "gap" principle can be applied to the 70 week prophecy. As long as the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 are fulfilled within the 70 prophetic weeks, even if there is a 2000 year gap in between in the weeks, the promise in Daniel 9:24 is true, as God worked within those 70 weeks to accomplish his promise.
However, even if 1 of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled outside of the prophetic weeks, in a gap, Daniel 9:24 becomes a false statement. I'll use the same story to explain:
I tell you I promise to build you a house in 12 months. I then proceed to work on the house one month out of the year (let's say june) with 11 month gaps of no work in between the junes. It takes me 12 years (12 junes) to finish your house. Now, even though the house was finished in 12 years, technically my promise was true as I built the house in 12 months (12 junes). HOWEVER, if I worked on the house at any point in 11 month gap "of no work" in addition to the month of June, my promise becomes false, as it actually took longer than 12 months to build your house.
So in order for the gap theory to work, none of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 can be fulfilled in a gap. They must all be fulfilled within the 70 weeks.
If there is a gap, that means Christ was crucified in it, AFTER the 69th but before the 70th
Daniel 9:26 AFTER the sixty-two weeks, the Messiah will be cut off and will have nothing
If there is a gap 2000+ year gap between the 69th and 70th week (church age), that means NONE of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 can be fulfilled by Christ's death, otherwise it falsifies Daniel 9:24.
However, I believe Christ death, resurrection, and ascension fulfilled the 6 points of Daniel 9:24. Here are 2 of the 6 and scripture to support:
1.)Jesus put away sin by his sacrifice
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) stop their transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to make atonement for iniquity, 4.)to bring in everlasting righteousness,5.) to seal up vision and prophecy, 6. and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
Hebrews 9:26 But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
2.) Jesus made atonement for sin by his sacrifice.
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city to 1.) stop their transgression, 2.) to put an end to sin, 3.) to make atonement for iniquity, 4.)to bring in everlasting righteousness,5.) to seal up vision and prophecy, 6. and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
Hebrews 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make atonement for the sins of the people
So if you believe Jesus fulfilled any of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 in a "gap" then you falsify Daniel 9:24.
**So there are only 2 ways to make the gap theory work, as to avoid a logical contradiction:
1.) Jesus did not fulfill any of the 6 points of Daniel 9:24 by his death, resurrection, and ascension
OR
2.) Daniel 9:24 is a separate 70 week prophecy from the 70 weeks of Daniel 9:25-27
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Douggg
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The little horn emerges out of the kingdom of the fourth beast. The four beasts coming out of the sea represent four kingdoms.
The four kingdoms are:
1. Babylonian
2. Medes-Persians
3. Greek
4. Roman
In Daniel 7, the four beasts also represents four kings. Daniel 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.
Those kings are:
1. Nebuchadnezzar
2. Cyrus
3. Alexander
5. Little horn person
There is no fifth.
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Revealing Times
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I don't get the gist of the point.........Most people speak to me about what the Jews believe as per endtime happenings, and my reply is why should I care, they are not in tune with God so their opinions on hse things carries no weight with me. As per your point, I don't understand the context, repost the point in full or I can't digest it in full.
I got you, , King Herod was actually a vassal of the Roman Empire, expected to support the interests of his Roman patrons. The Roman Senate granted him the title "King of Judea".
So these were titles given by men, in the end it matters not what men are doing as per God's prophecies, that is the point. These two have nothing to do with the 7 Headed Beast per se. Rome was a Beast overall, the King who WAS was Domitian, who ruled from like 81 AD to 96 AD if my memory serves me well. Augustus died before Jesus died. Herod supposedly died around 4 BC according to scholars, but we know they seemingly discount scriptures, the thing is he died well before Jesus died. These have nothing to do with the Beast per se except each Roman "King" was a part of the overall Beast Government that ruled over Israel, the Kings of Rev. 17 speak about Kings who AROSE and then Kings who FALL. The Last Beast will both arise and fall.
Dan. 2:32 This image's 1.)head was of fine gold, his 2.)breast and his arms of silver, 3.)his belly and his thighs of brass,
33 4.)His legs of iron, 5.)his feet part of iron and part of clay.
35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors;
Iron Legs are not Iron & Clay Feet with 10 toes.
Dan. 2:38............................................1.)Thou art this head of gold. 39 And after thee shall 2.)arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and 3.)another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth. 40 And the 4.)fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
41 And 5.)whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken. 43 And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
What makes the Statue weak ? Have you ever thought about this ?
It has no foundation !! Jesus is the ROCK but this Statue has CLAY mixed at the bottom with Iron which makes the Statue UNSTABLE !! The Clay represents Demonic Authority, rule. Men have followed Satan and his ways over God and His ways. Thus the Iron representing the last Kingdom on earth MIXES with the CLAY (Demonic Rule) and is thus the LAST BEAST Kingdom on earth, with humans and Demonic rule combined, thus we get the IMAGE of the Beast that COMES ALIVE in the Temple of God !! It's Supernatural, he has POWER.......But not of himself !! He understands DARK SENTENCES !! Satan is cast down to earth, and the last Kingdom is thus a MIX of Humans and Demonic rule !! But men can not follow ways of Satan and be built on a solid Rock Foundation, the STATUE WILL FALL !! We must build our houses on the Rock of Jesus or else we will fail as humans.
So Jesus SMASHES the Statue at the VERY POINT where it is weak, at the FEET, watch this brother.
Dan. 2:34 Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out(Jesus) without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces.
Jesus destroys the Statue (World Government under Satan) at the FEET where the Clay (Demonic) and Iron (Humans) mixed together at the END TIMES to try and defeat God at Armageddon.
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Douggg
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Where in Revelation 17 are you reading about Kings who "arose" - then Kings who "fall" ?
It says 5 have fallen - meaning 5 have died. It does talk about them "arising".
What overall beast government are you talking about ? You write in ambiguities. Are you referring to the Roman Empire?
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