Is prohibiting female church leadership (over men) legalistic?

YeshuaFan said:

Male headship is the correct doctrine regarding spiritual leadership, but has been greatly abused by those holding to it, so their application was wrong, not the premise!

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Just because you state it is correct doctrine does not in any way make it correct when there is no scriptural basis for it that does not immediately fall apart under contextual analysis.

Kerensa said:

Since the entire concept of the Trinity is unbiblical and contrary to what Jesus clearly taught and stated about himself and the Father, that argument won't wash. But that's getting way off topic.

Or even if it was a valid argument, the idea of "equal but with different roles" is a total fallacy with regard to the notion that men can be leaders and women can't. That is inherently unequal. I think others in this discussion (including at least one or two ordained ministers) have already explained that in some detail.

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No wonder you have misunderstandings in this area of women in the roles of pastors/elders, as you have issues with God being triune, do you see Jesus as being very God then?

ICONO'CLAST said:

bekkilyn,
[the fact that God has called many women to be pastors and that he is still calling women to be pastors today makes it very clear that God himself has no issues with the idea]
God has not called any woman to be a pastor when the scripture is clearly saying the exact opposite.
1tim 3, and Titus give the qualifications for men to be pastors.
A person cannot just set aside the scriptures which are our rule for faith and practice.

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Maybe you need to inform God of this opinion because he calls women into pastoral roles every day despite your claims.

YeshuaFan said:

Women did prophesy in Acts, but none were listed as being pastors/Elders though!

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I wasn't speaking of the NT or pastors or elders. I am not advocating female pastors either, I am not so presumptious to be so definite either way. All I know is that if God called a women to preach, He'll ensure that she does.

I was thinking of Huldah, Deborah and Miriam although many other women have heard from God in both the old and new testament.

ICONO'CLAST said:

And yet you have not shown any verse of scripture to support this mistaken idea.

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Neither have you shown any verses that Chinese people are called to be pastors.

[The bible is composed of letters and other books written by a number of different people. ]
It seems many people here have a defective view of scripture
Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )

4._____ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.
( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )

5._____We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)

6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)

7._____All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.
( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)

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What bible are these statements from? A denomination's doctrinal interpretations are not necessarily factual or authoritative.

The bible is the greatest gift from God to man, without it we would not know God, or the eternal purpose of God.

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So there were no Christians whatsoever in the 200 plus years since Jesus was resurrected and before the bible was created?

3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife,

How would a woman fulfill this condition if the language does not mean what it says, as you seem to suggest?

Am I not understanding your post correctly when you suggest it could be a man or a woman? Do you see how that would be quite foolish here?

5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

then in the same context it mentions wives;
11 Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things.

12 Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well.

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This has all been discussed in the thread that you apparently haven't read.

Scripture offers examples of several women who held important leadership positions in the early church. These include Junia, Phoebe and Priscilla. Yes, Paul wrote that "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man," but his use of the term "I" would seem to me to indicate that this was a either personal view or was addressing a unique situation at a given place. Scripture also tells us "There is neither...male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."

I have said this in other threads, I will say it again here. This is an issue upon which Christians can and do disagree. If you do not believe that a woman should be a minister then by all means do not join a church that ordains women. If you that that women should be ministers then do not join a church that forbids the ordination of women. Isn't that easier than arguing over the point?

RDKirk said:

There are no passages supporting church buildings, either.

Or Christmas.

Or choir directors.

Or "youth ministries."

Or more than one congregation in a city.

But again, you're just moving the goalpost. The OP is not specifically about elders and pastors, it's about leadership positions in general.

The only position which is stated "there cannot be women" is with regard to discipleship of men.

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Isn’t being a judge of Israel the same as disciplining? Or being a teacher/shepardess in the case of Priscilla? One exception to the rule makes it not God-breathed to mean what you think it means.

YeshuaFan said:

When Paul wrote anything down to us, was the same as if Jesus spoke it to us!

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This is silly. Paul and Jesus are not the same person. Jesus is God and Paul was a created being.

Paul also wasn't writing his letters to *us* but to the Galatians or the Ephesians, etc. and in some cases to the surrounding churches in that geographic area.

bekkilyn said:

Neither have you shown any verses that Chinese people are called to be pastors.

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As with all such doctrinal dilemmas, we have to take account of all that the Bible says on the subject, not just seize upon one verse and conclude from that.

Are there any verses that seem to prohibit Chinese people from becoming pastors? Are there any that refer to a candidate's ethnicity or nationality at all?

YeshuaFan said:

Women did prophesy in Acts, but none were listed as being pastors/Elders though!

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Hmmm...an interesting thing to encounter (and this comes from full, humble reading) is Romans chapter 16. One unavoidable lesson in this chapter is that women were very important already even in that time in the church. For the Chruch. To do the work needing doing, for the Chruch. As key for the Chruch. Consider: what is an 'elder'? Well, in our time, in some churches I visited, it is only, simply the church council, just servants in the position of serving the church. Would you think Paul was being only merely diplomatic to greet so many women? A closer reading of more passages from Paul about women would correct that idea. He is thanking and encouraging people doing key and important work in the church.
Romans 16 NIV

Phrases like "my co-workers in Christ Jesus" doesn't sound like merely a pretense, but very much a real thing.

Please do read this wonderful and encouraging chapter! It's not long or difficult in any way, and any of us could read it in just a couple of minutes.

Please see post #327 above for a key thing about Paul's message for us right now, today. You and I have duty right now, from Paul's writing, to apply it in the true way.

bekkilyn said:

This is silly. Paul and Jesus are not the same person. Jesus is God and Paul was a created being.

Paul also wasn't writing his letters to *us* but to the Galatians or the Ephesians, etc. and in some cases to the surrounding churches in that geographic area.

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The Holy Spirit inspired paul to record down to us His Epistles, and anything that Paul states to us would thus be Jesus speaking to us!

Sam91 said:

I wasn't speaking of the NT or pastors or elders. I am not advocating female pastors either, I am not so presumptious to be so definite either way. All I know is that if God called a women to preach, He'll ensure that she does.

I was thinking of Huldah, Deborah and Miriam although many other women have heard from God in both the old and new testament.

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1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon a b of the church in Cenchreae.2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

3Greet Priscilla c and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus.4They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

5Greet also the church that meets at their house.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

6Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

7Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among d the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

8Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord.

9Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

10Greet Apelles, whose fidelity to Christ has stood the test.

Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.

11Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.

Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.

12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the other brothers and sisters with them.

15Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the Lord’s people who are with them.

16Greet one another with a holy kiss.

All the churches of Christ send greetings.

17I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

21Timothy, my co-worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my fellow Jews.

22I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.

23Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings.

Erastus, who is the city’s director of public works, and our brother Quartus send you their greetings. [24] e

25Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from f faith— 27to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.


Thought Romans 16 needed posted.

In a way worthy of His people is what I never see happening in these threads

1I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon a b of the church in Cenchreae. 2I ask you to receive her in the Lord in a way worthy of his people and to give her any help she may need from you, for she has been the benefactor of many people, including me.

3Greet Priscilla c and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus. 4They risked their lives for me. Not only I but all the churches of the Gentiles are grateful to them.

5Greet also the church that meets at their house.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

6Greet Mary, who worked very hard for you.

7Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among d the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

8Greet Ampliatus, my dear friend in the Lord.

9Greet Urbanus, our co-worker in Christ, and my dear friend Stachys.

10Greet Apelles, whose fidelity to Christ has stood the test.

Greet those who belong to the household of Aristobulus.

11Greet Herodion, my fellow Jew.

Greet those in the household of Narcissus who are in the Lord.

12Greet Tryphena and Tryphosa, those women who work hard in the Lord.

Greet my dear friend Persis, another woman who has worked very hard in the Lord.

13Greet Rufus, chosen in the Lord, and his mother, who has been a mother to me, too.

14Greet Asyncritus, Phlegon, Hermes, Patrobas, Hermas and the other brothers and sisters with them.

15Greet Philologus, Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas and all the Lord’s people who are with them.

16Greet one another with a holy kiss.

All the churches of Christ send greetings.

17I urge you, brothers and sisters, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I rejoice because of you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

20The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet.

The grace of our Lord Jesus be with you.

21Timothy, my co-worker, sends his greetings to you, as do Lucius, Jason and Sosipater, my fellow Jews.

22I, Tertius, who wrote down this letter, greet you in the Lord.

23Gaius, whose hospitality I and the whole church here enjoy, sends you his greetings.

Erastus, who is the city’s director of public works, and our brother Quartus send you their greetings. [24]e

25Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past, 26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes from f faith— 27to the only wise God be glory forever through Jesus Christ! Amen.

Doctor.Sphinx said:

Many of the women I have seen clamouring to get a church leadership position are either single, divorced, or do not respect their husbands.

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My experience from my own church is the two female pastors we've had over time have had good relationships with their husband and of which were also supportive of their wife's vocation.

bekkilyn said:

This is silly. Paul and Jesus are not the same person. Jesus is God and Paul was a created being.

Paul also wasn't writing his letters to *us* but to the Galatians or the Ephesians, etc. and in some cases to the surrounding churches in that geographic area.

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My experience has been those who wish to see Women pastors and elders have NO scriptures they use to support it, but appeal to our cultural/society views, and also try to make Paul not really be inspired, as times they see him more as giving personal opinions and not infallible truth... His opinions were inspired truths though!

Albion said:

As with all such doctrinal dilemmas, we have to take account of all that the Bible says on the subject, not just seize upon one verse and conclude from that.

Are there any verses that seem to prohibit Chinese people from becoming pastors? Are there any that refer to a candidate's ethnicity or nationality at all?

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Let's repeat this part: we have to take account of all that the Bible says on the subject, not just seize upon one verse and conclude from that.

If someone has decided that because women aren't mentioned in a passage means that they aren't included, then it's the same as deciding that anyone else who isn't mentioned in that same passage isn't included. Really, the only people who are defintely included are those who Paul (or psuedo-Paul in some cases) is addressing the letter to.

bekkilyn said:

Let's repeat this part: we have to take account of all that the Bible says on the subject, not just seize upon one verse and conclude from that.

If someone has decided that because women aren't mentioned in a passage means that they aren't included, then it's the same as deciding that anyone else who isn't mentioned in that same passage isn't included. Really, the only people who are defintely included are those who Paul (or psuedo-Paul in some cases) is addressing the letter to.

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EVERY time Paul listed though who should be a pastor/elder. always was referring to male!

YeshuaFan said:

The Holy Spirit inspired paul to record down to us His Epistles, and anything that Paul states to us would thus be Jesus speaking to us!

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While Paul was indeed inspired by the Holy Spirit in writing to the particular audiences he was addressing (not us), Paul is Paul (created) and Jesus is Jesus (creator). They are not the same and Paul was not some Oracle of Delphi in Christian form.

YeshuaFan said:

My experience has been those who wish to see Women pastors and elders have NO scriptures they use to support it, but appeal to our cultural/society views, and also try to make Paul not really be inspired, as times they see him more as giving personal opinions and not infallible truth... His opinions were inspired truths though!

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So does your entire faith in Jesus and the *event* of his resurrection (which is TRUTH) fall completely apart whenever someone points out an obvious contradiction in scripture? Or do you bury your head in the sand and keep insisting, despite all evidence to the contrary, that there are none?

bekkilyn said:

Let's repeat this part: we have to take account of all that the Bible says on the subject, not just seize upon one verse and conclude from that.

If someone has decided that because women aren't mentioned in a passage means that they aren't included, then it's the same as deciding that anyone else who isn't mentioned in that same passage isn't included.

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At best...it's a maybe. But only if no other people are included by that verse and, also, if we assume (wrongly) that any other references in Scripture to the same issue are not to be considered. On both of those accounts, your conclusion is premature.