There has to be something more diabolical going on

parousia70

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Since you claim Jesus came while the 12 apostles were yet alive,what was the exact date(month ,day,year)he returned and did the resurrection take place on that day as he promised?
Do you know ofany eye witnesses that have testified of Christs second advent?

Ps,did the twelve remain in israel andnot go to the gentiles as jesus comanded those in the passage?

Well, if you need extra-biblical corroboration of Biblical truth then you have piles of scripture that you need to provide extra-biblical evidence of.

What eyewitness accounts, apart from scripture, of Jesus Life, death, burial and resurrection can you produce for us?

Outside of scripture, what eyewitness accounts of John the Baptist baptizing Jesus can you produce?

Virgin Birth? What eyewitness source outside of scripture can you provide that corroborates that Christ was born of a Virgin?

According to John, he was an eyewitness who heralded the then present arrival of the Tribulation of Jesus Christ and Day of the Lord :

Revelation 1:9-10

9 I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. 10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet,

In order to assert this did NOT happen as written, you would have to assert that this passage also did NOT happen, do you?:
Matthew 21:40-45

40 “Therefore, when the lord of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those vinedressers?”

41 They said to Him, “He will destroy those wicked men miserably, and lease his vineyard to other vinedressers who will render to him the fruits in their seasons.”

42 Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures:

‘The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone.
This was the Lord’s doing,
And it is marvelous in our eyes’?

43 “Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it. 44 And whoever falls on this stone will be broken; but on whomever it falls, it will grind him to powder.”

45 Now when the chief priests and Pharisees heard His parables, they understood that He was speaking of them.

You would be relatively alone in asserting that Matthew 21:40-45 did not come to pass in the first century, the issue for you would be that Matthew concretely cements that event with the coming of the Lord.

You would have to grab a razor blade and excise this passage from your Bible to assert this did not happen... unless you do require extra-biblical proof for everything the Bible says?
 
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parousia70

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Since you claim Jesus came while the 12 apostles were yet alive,what was the exact date(month ,day,year)he returned and did the resurrection take place on that day as he promised?
Do you know ofany eye witnesses that have testified of Christs second advent?

Ps,did the twelve remain in israel andnot go to the gentiles as jesus comanded those in the passage?


Wait... so you asked what specific group Jesus was addressing there, and I provided the Biblical answer.

Do you have a Biblical response as to why you believe my answer of WHO Jesus was specifically addressing is untrue and why you don't believe what the scriptures plainly say about WHO Jesus was SPECIFICALLY addressing?
 
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parousia70

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It is likely that not all are yet sealed. And yes, only God knows who they are, but they are certainly descendants of Israel (of whom not a seed shall fall to earth).

So whoever claims to be one of them, Christians must blindly accept their claim?

We are not allowed to test their claims against scripture and challenge the claims we find have been left wanting?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest. Paul Simon, The Boxer.
Normally we quote scripture on this forum, instead of boxers.......If you can show how people will be saved at the Second Coming, based on the context of 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and the parable of the virgins from Matthew chapter 25, feel free to do so...
.
Revelation 15:8 is interesting.
Just like the door was shut and locked in that virgins parable, so is the Sanctuary of God shut until the the last bowls of wrath are poured out on 1st century Jerusalem.
It appears only the Messengers of the Lord are inside of it?
Interesting.......


Revelation 15
5 And after these things I saw, and behold! opened was the Sanctuary of the tabernacle of the testimony in the heaven;
6 and come forth did the seven Messengers having the seven plagues, out of the Sanctuary, clothed in linen, pure and shining, and girded round the breasts with golden girdles:
8 and filled was the sanctuary with smoke from the glory of God, and from His power, and no one was able to enter into the Sanctuary till the seven plagues of the seven Messengers may be finished.
Revelation 16:
1 And I heard a great voice out of the Sanctuary saying to the seven Messengers, 'Go away, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God to the earth;
17 And the seventh Messenger did pour out his vial to the air, and there came forth a great Voice from the Sanctuary of the heaven, from the throne, saying, 'It hath finished.

1 Peter 4:7
Of All-things yet
The End Has-Neared; be sane then! and be sober! into the prayers,

James 5:8
be ye patient!, also stand-fast the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared;

1 Corin 15:23
Each yet in the own rank: a firstfruit Christ,
thereupon those of Christ's in the Parousia of Him
24 thereafter the End

whenever He may be giving the Kingdom to the God and Father
,..................





.
 
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BABerean2

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1 Corin 15:23
Each yet in the own rank: a firstfruit Christ,
thereupon those of Christ's in the Parousia of Him
24 thereafter the End

whenever He may be giving the Kingdom to the God and Father
,..................

Are you attempting to say that Christ left heaven, being seated at the right hand of the Father, and returned to earth during 70 AD?

.
 
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BABerean2

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During the tribulations I believe the Church will be raptured.

Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

A person cannot be under the blood of the Lamb and not be a part of the New Covenant Church of Jesus Christ.

The Capital "C" Church, as you used the word above, is not found in the entire Book of Revelation.

Individual church bodies in ancient Asia Minor are found.

.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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shilohsfoal said:
Since you claim Jesus came while the 12 apostles were yet alive,what was the exact date(month ,day,year)he returned and did the resurrection take place on that day as he promised?
Do you know ofany eye witnesses that have testified of Christs second advent?

Ps,did the twelve remain in israel andnot go to the gentiles as jesus comanded those in the passage?
Wait... so you asked what specific group Jesus was addressing there, and I provided the Biblical answer.

Do you have a Biblical response as to why you believe my answer of WHO Jesus was specifically addressing is untrue and why you don't believe what the scriptures plainly say about WHO Jesus was SPECIFICALLY addressing?
Better yet, how would those 1st century Jews interpret the "parousia" of Jesus?
Has anyone noticed that only 4 Jewish Apostles mention that word in the NT? Peter, John, James and the later Apostle Paul.


What is the "Parousia" in the New Testament

Matthew 24:
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling! to us, when? shall these be,
and what? the sign
of Thy parousia,
and together-finish<4931> of the age


Mark 13 shows only 4 Apostles coming to Him privately.

Mark 13:3
Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple,
Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately,...............


Peter, James, John and Paul are the only ones that mention the word "parousia"

1 Corinthians 15:23
23 and each in their proper order, a first-fruit Christ, afterwards those who are the Christ’s, in His parousia<3952>,
24 then — the end, when he may deliver up the reign to God, even the Father, when he may have made useless all rule, and all authority and power
1 John 2:28
And now, little children, remain in Him, that when he may be manifested, we may have boldness, and may not be ashamed before him, in His parousia<3952>;
2 Peter 1:16 -
For skilfully devised fables not having followed out, we did make known to you the power and parousian <3952> of our Lord Jesus Christ, but eye-witnesses having become of His majesty --
2 Peter 3:
4 and saying, 'Where is the promise of His parousiaV <3952>? for since the fathers did fall asleep, all things so remain from the beginning of the creation;'
12 waiting for and hasting to the parousian <3952> of the day of God, by which the heavens, being on fire, shall be dissolved, and the elements with burning heat shall melt;

James, an Apostles to the Jews/12 tribes, is telling the Jews the parousia was nigh at hand:

James 5:8
be ye patient! also stand-fast! the hearts of ye,
that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared


The end of what? The end of the OC Jewish Levitical system:

Mark 13:

7 “But when you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be troubled;
for such things must happen,
but the end is not yet.

Luke 21:9
“But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified;
for these things must come to pass first,
but the end is not immediate.”




.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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So whoever claims to be one of them, Christians must blindly accept their claim?

We are not allowed to test their claims against scripture and challenge the claims we find have been left wanting?

I believe that I am a descendant of Benjamin and Zebulon (Norwegian and Dutch), but I'm not one of the 'sealed'.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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No.

During the tribulations I believe the Church will be raptured.

The only people left will be the 144,000 and the unsaved.
I believe that I am a descendant of Benjamin and Zebulon (Norwegian and Dutch), but I'm not one of the 'sealed'.
Interesting. How did you find that out?
I am German, Dutch [mother's side] and Lithuanian[father's side]. How do I find out which tribe they were from?

Luke 21:28
7 Yet they inquire<1905> of Him, saying, “Teacher!
when? then shall these be

28 Beginning yet these-things to be becoming, up-bend ye! and lift-up! the heads of ye, thru-that is nigh at hand the deliverence/redemption<629> of ye. {Daniel 12}

Ephesians 4:30
and no be ye sorrowing the Holy Spirit of the God
in which ye were sealed into a day of redemption<629>.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ; and it is deserving of the very particular attention of the reader, that this was the anniversary of that memorable period in which the Jews crucified their Messiah !

At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival. How suitable and how kind, then, was the prophetic admonition of our LORD, and how clearly he into futurity when he said "Let not them that are in the countries enter into Jerusalem." Luke xxi. 21.........................

.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Interesting. How did you find that out?
I am German, Dutch [mother's side] and Lithuanian[father's side]. How do I find out which tribe they were from?

It is part of the beliefs of British Israelism, some of which I believe.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Wait... so you asked what specific group Jesus was addressing there, and I provided the Biblical answer.

Do you have a Biblical response as to why you believe my answer of WHO Jesus was specifically addressing is untrue and why you don't believe what the scriptures plainly say about WHO Jesus was SPECIFICALLY addressing?

I asked someone else a question .Not you.But you answerd anyway.So then i asked you questions since you felt the need to answer.Now you are ignoring the questions i specifically ask you.
 
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shilohsfoal

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Stone-n-Steel

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The problem with this eschatology is that it is only good for those who live during the supposed dispensational view of the 7 year tribulation period. It leaves out all the other Jews for the past 2000 plus years that rejected Christ. If God has a plan for the unrepentant Jew, it would have to encompass all of them which means you believe in the John Hagee , " all Jews are saved" no matter what. This is not only not true..see Old testament, but it is unjust and leading the chosen people to the wide road of destruction. Has God "given up"?? NO . Jesus Christ of Nazareth came out of their loins and if they chose/choose not to accept Him as their Messiah, it has certainly come with great sorrow. See Christ's LAMENT.

"Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

I would have to say that anyone who identifies them self as a Jew or comes from a direct lineage of one of the tribes is in the same boat as you and I. They need to believe Jesus died just for them because they had no other salvation. They would need to set aside their OT religion and be a NT saint.
 
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parousia70

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I asked someone else a question .Not you.But you answerd anyway.

That's what happens on these public forums. Anyone is free and welcome to respond to any post. CF provides a private message feature for use by folks who only want their questions answered by the specific people addressed.

So then i asked you questions since you felt the need to answer.

Instead of showing why you disagree with the scriptures I posted. Correct.

Now you are ignoring the questions i specifically ask you.

I give what I get.
When my questions are ignored and instead met with completely different questions, I have no reason to do anything but the same.

When someone gives the courtesy of explaining to me, with scripture, why the scriptures I provide do not mean what I contend, it then becomes a constructive dialogue that edifies many.

If, in contrast, after I provide a well reasoned, Bible-based exegesis, and instead of a Bible-based exegetical rebuttal i receive more rabbit trail questions, yes, I'll ignore them. Enough evidence has already been provided for the honest Bible expositor to reach their own conclusions on whos position has the greater weight of scriptural evidence in support.

Ever patient, I'm always ready to hear why and how the scriptures I provided do not mean what I contend they do, namely a very detailed answer to your question of "Who specifically was Jesus Addressing here"

I showed where the Bible answers the question in excruciating detail, down to the very names of the 12 people He was specifically addressing in that passage.
You are free to disagree with the scriptures I provided, but until you offer a sober, reasoned, scriptural rebuttal, my answer stands as unrefuted.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I would have to say that anyone who identifies them self as a Jew or comes from a direct lineage of one of the tribes is in the same boat as you and I. They need to believe Jesus died just for them because they had no other salvation. They would need to set aside their OT religion and be a NT saint.
CORRECTOMUNDO!
And be ready to suffer, endure and die for that Faith in Him.
I am an Idealist Partial Preterist and believe Revelation 1-19 is showing the fulfillment of the Olivet Discourse in 70ad.

https://www.preteristarchive.com/?s=revelation+and+70ad&id=m


Revelation 14:12
Here is the endurance<5281> of the Saints;
here are those[fn] who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.


Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance<5281> and the faith of the Saints


Luke 21:24
And they shall be falling to mouth of sword
and they shall be being led captive into all the nations.

And Jerusalem shall be being trodden by nations until which may be being filled times of nations.



.

 
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shilohsfoal

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That's what happens on these public forums. Anyone is free and welcome to respond to any post. CF provides a private message feature for use by folks who only want their questions answered by the specific people addressed.



Instead of showing why you disagree with the scriptures I posted. Correct.



I give what I get.
When my questions are ignored and instead met with completely different questions, I have no reason to do anything but the same.

When someone gives the courtesy of explaining to me, with scripture, why the scriptures I provide do not mean what I contend, it then becomes a constructive dialogue that edifies many.

If, in contrast, after I provide a well reasoned, Bible-based exegesis, and instead of a Bible-based exegetical rebuttal i receive more rabbit trail questions, yes, I'll ignore them. Enough evidence has already been provided for the honest Bible expositor to reach their own conclusions on whos position has the greater weight of scriptural evidence in support.

Ever patient, I'm always ready to hear why and how the scriptures I provided do not mean what I contend they do, namely a very detailed answer to your question of "Who specifically was Jesus Addressing here"

I showed where the Bible answers the question in excruciating detail, down to the very names of the 12 people He was specifically addressing in that passage.
You are free to disagree with the scriptures I provided, but until you offer a sober, reasoned, scriptural rebuttal, my answer stands as unrefuted.

As i said.I was not asking you the question.I quoted the person i was speaking too.You just assumed i was asking anyone.
You was wrong, as you often are.
 
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parousia70

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You was wrong, as you often are.

I've let go of my attachment to the need to be right.
It's very liberating.
Everyone should try it.

Now if you could only demonstrate HOW I'm wrong, we might start to get somewhere.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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parousia70 said:
I'm wondering what you think constitutes a "Jew" in God's eyes?
The 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Isreal. The Elect that will be saved from tribulation.
Yes, those of the faith of Jesus........

Rom 3:22
and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
Gal 2:16
having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
Gal 3:22
but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.

This verse doesn't say "or" but "and".........

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the Saints;
here are those who keep the commandments of God AND the faith of Jesus.

History of God's Holy Bible and the so-called Jews
The Etymology of the Word "Jew" In his classic Facts are Facts, Jewish historian, researcher and scholar Benjamin Freedman writes:

What is a Jew?

Speaking to His elect Church Jesus said, "I know your affliction and your poverty, but you have heavenly riches, and I know the blasphemy of them who say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan . . .
Take note, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews, but are impostors who lie,
to come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you"
(Revelation 2:9; 3:9).

Speaking to the so-called Jews who were of the sect of the Pharisees (or Judaism) Jesus said, "You serpents, offspring of vipers, how can you escape being sentenced to hell fire? Therefore take notice, I will send you prophets, and wise men, and scribes, some of whom you will kill and crucify; and some of whom you will flog in your synagogues, and persecute from town to town, that upon you may come all the righteous blood that has been shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zachariah the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. I assure you, all these things shall come upon this race" (Matthew 23:33-36).

Jesus identified these so-called Jews as the descendants of Cain.

Speaking to Cain God said, "What have you done? the voice of your brother's blood cries to Me from the ground. And now you are cursed from the earth, which has opened her mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand" (Genesis 4:10-11).

Speaking to Christ's end-time Bride regarding the Words of Jesus, the prophet William Branham said, "Here is a verse that will bear considerable thought, not only because it is most peculiar in its contents, but also it is virtually repeated in an age that is over a thousand years later. . . To begin with, the word, Jews, does not describe the religion of the Jewish people. It refers only to the people of Judah and has the same precise meaning if I were to say I am Irish born. These people were saying that they were actually Jews, real Jews by birth. They were liars. They were not Jews by birth and they weren't Jews by religion."

(The word Jew was coined by Nebuchadnezzar's troops as an abbreviation of the word "Judean." A Jew or Judean is one who is a resident of Judea regardless of his religion, race, or nationality. Every resident of Palestine is a "Jew" whereas the so-called Jews living abroad are not Jews at all, neither by residence, nor by birth, nor by religion. This is confirmed by the Bible in the Old and New Testaments, Jewish historians such as Josephus, Professor of Medieval Jewish History at Tel Aviv University, A. N. Poliak in his book Khazaria (1944, 1951); American historian Professor Dunlop of Columbia University in his article on the Khazars in the Encyclopaedia Judaica (1971); Noam Chomsky in his book, Fateful Triangle, Arthur Koestler in his masterpiece, The Thirteenth Tribe; Professor Heinrich H. Graetz in his History of the Jews, p. 141 (1891-98); Soviet archaeologist M. I. Artamonov in Istoria Khazar, Benjamin Freedman in Facts are Facts, Chief Rabbi of the United States, the late Steven S. Wise, the Message of William Branham the Prophet of Malachi 4:5-6 and Revelation 10:7, every Jewish and all Gentile encyclopaedias affirm that barely any so-called Jew is an Israelite let alone Semitic.
Note also that Judaism is Pharisaism based on the Talmud, which is the antithesis of pre-exilic Yahweh Torah or Yahwism, the Law and the Prophets, and accursed of God in Matthew 15:1-9, and Moses in Deuteronomy 5:22; 12:32).

"If all this is true, what were they? They were a deceived people who were already part of the church. They belonged to the false vine."

(Brother Branham is explaining how the Roman Catholic church, which organized at the Hegelian dialectic of the First Nicea Council in AD325, had its beginnings as the First Church of Rome founded in AD36 by the apostles Junias and Andronicus (Romans 16:7). This church apostatised when the elders, who had emigrated from Judea to escape the persecution of the Jews (Acts 8:1), were subsequently expelled from Rome by Emperor Claudius along with all Judeans (Acts 18:2). It was thirteen years before the Judeans could return, and when the Christian elders returned they found the First Church of Rome would not repent).

"They were not of the true church, but of the false church because God said "they were the synagogue of Satan." Now the word for synagogue is not the same word we use for church. In the Bible, church means, "the called out ones," or the "summoned ones." The Psalmist said of these elect people, "Blessed is the man whom THOU CHOOSEST, and CAUSEST to approach unto Thee, that he may dwell in Thy courts" (Psalms 65:4). But the meaning of synagogue is "assembly or gathering." This can be good or bad, but in this case it is bad, for these are they whose assembling is not of God but of their own selves. Isaiah said of them, "Behold, they shall surely gather together, but NOT BY ME: whosoever shall gather together against Thee shall fall for Thy sake" (Isaiah 54:15). And since these were surely against the true vine, God will one day deal with them in destruction."
 
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mark kennedy

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I don't believe that God completely gave up Jews or Isreal. I think there is a future plan and the 144,000 from the 12 tribes are the lucky people of Isreal that will be saved. Don't mistake this as me saying all Jews will be saved for simply being Jewish because that is not my claim. People of Jacob need the Gospel just as much as Muslims and atheists need the Gospel. The 144,000 from the 12 tribes the Elect still need to believe in their messiah.

For centuries people tried to exterminate the Jews, why? Because God has a plan for them. It seems apparently so.

What is replacement theology / supersessionism?
I couldn't agree more, God never has and never will give up on Israel. The Gentiles are the wild branch grafted into the vine. We are supposed to makes them jealous, not replace them.
 
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