Scapegoat

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Interesting. Thanks for the patient explanation. After examining, I think you are right about the two goats, but have one question. Why was the goat that was sent away treated as "unclean" if it represented Jesus?

Because what it is showing is that all that is unclean, sin, evil etc. were taken away by Jesus.

Behold the lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world.

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

Hammster said:
No, in context, Paul is stating all types of men. Same thing Paul does in Titus 2:11.

And if you read John 10, it states the same thing in another way. Christ died for His sheep.

Hammster said:
For instance, could the use be “people from all tongues, tribes, and nations?

where in the word WORLD/kosmos do you see the definition "people from all tongues, tribes, and nations"?

Kosmos is never translated that way so what I see here is a doctrine changing the meaning of a word to suite that doctrine.

mmksparbud · Dec 16, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
Interesting. Thanks for the patient explanation. After examining, I think you are right about the two goats, but have one question. Why was the goat that was sent away treated as "unclean" if it represented Jesus?

Because it doesn't represent Jesus--Read post #74 and #47.

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

redleghunter said:
Yes I believe John 3:16 qualified “world” as those who believe in Him. So there’s a distinction there.

We must be mindful most of the NT was to a mix of Jewish and Gentile believers. The Jewish believers would be of the opinion the promises of Messiah were for Israel and not Gentiles. So by using terms as “all” and “world” John and Paul would be making the point those two terms meant Christ is the savior for all peoples. Meaning not just Jews.

I believe this is confirmed at the Council of Jerusalem where certain Jews wanted Gentiles to be circumcised and follow the Law of Moses. They believed only the promises belonged to Jews and those who “become” Jews. So there was a certain cultural bias and the apostles dealt with it by using no uncertain terms as “all” and “world.”

Nonsense. Jesus came and died for the sins of the whole world, not some people in the world.
Calvinism is a self defeating doctrine.

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

I had said

I own 3 Hebrew bibles with commentary and not one of them says this.

What they do say however is that azazel is a god that accepted as property the sins as a sacrifice to himself.

So do you believe in a god called azazel?

So much for the traditions of men

redleghunter said:
I think he is pulling our leg.

What a polite way of saying I am lying. Maybe yourself should get yourself a few Hebrew bibles and look it up for yourself before you call someone a liar.

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

DamianWarS said:
there are 2 goats, one is a sin offering and the other for atonement. Atonement as per Christianity is about reconciliation between God and man through Christ, so if any of the goats point to Christ then the scapegoat certainly should be one as it is about atonement but also the sin offering goat or the Goat for the Yahweh points to Christ.

DamianWarS said:
Hebrew confirms this of course
"But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins ... we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." (Heb 10:3-4,10)

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Scapegoat

The scapegoat carried the sin of the people away with it, thereby cleansing Israel for another year.
The English scapegoat is a compound of the archaic verb scape, which means "escape," and goat, and is modeled on a misreading of the Hebrew ʽazāzēl (which is probably the name of a demon) as ʽēz 'ōzēl , "the goat that departs." More modern translations render scapegoat in this text as Azazel, but the misreading endured and has entered the lexicon.
History and Etymology for scapegoat
Noun
scape entry 1; intended as translation of Hebrew ʽazāzēl (probably name of a demon), as if ʽēz 'ōzēl goat that departs—Leviticus 16:8 (King James Version)
Definition of SCAPEGOAT

Tyndale translated the word Asazel into "escape goat"--over time, the e was dropped.

It is now generally accepted that Tyndale got his translation of the Hebrew sources wrong. He misread ʿăzāzel' in the original and translated it as 'ez ozel', literally 'the goat that departs' or ‘the goote on which the lotte fell to scape’. Later scholars corrected the mistake and 'scapegoat' doesn't appear in the Revised Version of 1884, which has ‘Azazel’ as a proper name in the text, but by that time the word had already been established as a commonplace word. So commonplace in fact that, in the way that 'gate' is now added to form the name for any scandal, the 18th century gave us 'scape-horses', 'scape-rats' and 'scape-geese'.
'Scapegoat' - the meaning and origin of this word

You do see the word probably do you not?

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

jamesbond007 said:
If the scapegoat was Satan, then he'd probably enjoy it and take it away like it was gold coins or something valuable.

That is what I pointed out earlier and was called a liar for doing so.

Pneuma3 said:
I own 3 Hebrew bibles with commentary

What they do say however is that azazel is a god that accepted as property the sins as a sacrifice to himself.

however it does seem some are willing to believe this other god they call azazel is the one who makes atonement for our sins and takes them away. Yet we who believe in Jesus Christ know that it was Jesus Christ who did this.

Hammster · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
where in the word WORLD/kosmos do you see the definition "people from all tongues, tribes, and nations"?

Kosmos is never translated that way so what I see here is a doctrine changing the meaning of a word to suite that doctrine.

So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him." - John 12:19

By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. - Hebrews 11:7

The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. - John 7:7

Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. - John 16:20

There’s more.

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

Hammster said:
The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is. What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.

The workings of Gods wrath is the law, which is a ministration of death and a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

Many remain under the workings of law/wrath of God as their schoolmaster until that schoolmaster leads them to Christ

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

mmksparbud said:
Because it doesn't represent Jesus--Read post #74 and #47.

If it is not Jesus who makes atonement and takes away the sins of the world who do you believe it is?

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

Hammster said:
So the Pharisees said to one another, "You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him." - John 12:19

By faith Noah, being warned by God concerning events as yet unseen, in reverent fear constructed an ark for the saving of his household. By this he condemned the world and became an heir of the righteousness that comes by faith. - Hebrews 11:7

The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil. - John 7:7

Truly, truly, I say to you, you will weep and lament, but the world will rejoice. You will be sorrowful, but your sorrow will turn into joy. - John 16:20

There’s more.

and what is wrong with translating those as all the ungoldy mass of humanity?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

mmksparbud · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
You do see the word probably do you not?

You do see that only one goat is for YHWH ---

8 and~he~did~GIVE(Verb) (וְנָתַן / wê'na'tan) Aharon (אַהֲרֹן / a'ha'ron) UPON (עַל / al) TWO (שְׁנֵי / shê'ney) the~HAIRY.GOAT ~s (הַשְּׂעִירִם / has'i'rim) LOT ~s (גּוֹרָלוֹת / go'ra'lot) LOT (גּוֹרָל / go'ral) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad) to~YHWH (לַיהוָה / la'YHWH) and~LOT (וְגוֹרָל / wê'go'ral) UNIT (אֶחָד / e'hhad) to~Azazeyl (לַעֲזָאזֵל / la'a'za'zeyl) [713]

and Aharon will place upon the two hairy goats lots, one lot is for YHWH and one lot is for Azazeyl,

9 and~he~did~make~COME.NEAR(Verb) (וְהִקְרִיב / wê'hiq'riv) Aharon (אַהֲרֹן / a'ha'ron) AT (אֶת / et) the~HAIRY.GOAT (הַשָּׂעִיר / ha'sa'ir) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~GO.UP(Verb) (עָלָה / a'lah) [714] UPON ~him (עָלָיו / a'law) the~LOT (הַגּוֹרָל / ha'go'ral) to~YHWH (לַיהוָה / la'YHWH) and~he~did~DO(Verb)~him (וְעָשָׂהוּ / wê'a'sa'hu) [715] FAILURE (חַטָּאת / hha'tat)

and Aharon will bring near the hairy goat, which went up upon him the lot for YHWH, and he will do him as a failure,
10 and~the~HAIRY.GOAT (וְהַשָּׂעִיר / wê'ha'sa'ir) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~GO.UP(Verb) (עָלָה / a'lah) [716] UPON ~him (עָלָיו / a'law) the~LOT (הַגּוֹרָל / ha'go'ral) to~Azazeyl (לַעֲזָאזֵל / la'a'za'zeyl) he~will~be~much~STAND(Verb) (יָעֳמַד / ya'a'mad) LIVING (חַי / hhai) to~FACE ~s (לִפְנֵי / liph'ney) YHWH (יְהוָה / YHWH) to~>~much~COVER(Verb) (לְכַפֵּר / lê'kha'peyr) UPON ~him (עָלָיו / a'law) to~>~much~SEND(Verb) (לְשַׁלַּח / lê'sha'lahh) AT ~him (אֹתוֹ / o'to) to~Azazeyl (לַעֲזָאזֵל / la'a'za'zeyl) the~WILDERNESS ~unto (הַמִּדְבָּרָה / ha'mid'ba'rah)

and the hairy goat which went up upon him the lot for Azazeyl, he will stand living to the face of YHWH to make a covering upon him, to send him for Azazeyl unto the wilderness,

The Torah: Leviticus 16
azazel: entire removal
Original Word: עֲזָאזֵל
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: azazel
Phonetic Spelling: (az-aw-zale')
Definition: entire removal

the One Slain is for YHWH.

Jesus paid the price----Satan will bear the blame. As long as Satan exists---sin will exist---is total destruction will be the final removal.
We are forgiven by the blood of Jesus for those sins, but Satan will one day stand before God and all blame for sin will be his--including the sin of the death of Christ. And he will be destroyed.
Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.
Eze 28:18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

mmksparbud · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
If it is not Jesus who makes atonement and takes away the sins of the world who do you believe it is?

'I very clearly said that it is Jesus that takes away the sin of the world. His blood was shed to cleanse us from sin---Satan bares the blames for it. He is the originator of it.

Hammster · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
The workings of Gods wrath is the law, which is a ministration of death and a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ.

Many remain under the workings of law/wrath of God as their schoolmaster until that schoolmaster leads them to Christ

How can they remain if, according to your understanding of 1 John 2:2, God’s wrath is satisfied for the whole world?

Hammster · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
and what is wrong with translating those as all the ungoldy mass of humanity?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.

You mean folks from every tongue, tribe, and nation?

redleghunter · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
Nonsense. Jesus came and died for the sins of the whole world, not some people in the world.
Calvinism is a self defeating doctrine.

I didn’t mention Calvinism.

The Scriptures tell us not all believe in Christ.

redleghunter · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
What a polite way of saying I am lying. Maybe yourself should get yourself a few Hebrew bibles and look it up for yourself before you call someone a liar.

I believe I was responding to another poster who put the scapegoat as Satan.

redleghunter · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
where in the word WORLD/kosmos do you see the definition "people from all tongues, tribes, and nations"?

Kosmos is never translated that way so what I see here is a doctrine changing the meaning of a word to suite that doctrine.

Can you point out the Apostolic teaching (meaning expository and not isolated verses) where all will be saved?

redleghunter · Dec 16, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
Nonsense. Jesus came and died for the sins of the whole world, not some people in the world.
Calvinism is a self defeating doctrine.

Yet the “whosoever” is qualified by those who believe. Read the whole chapter. There’s clear teaching that some people don’t come to the Light because they don’t want their evil deeds exposed. What about those people?

Scapegoat

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