IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

Greg J. · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
So Jesus wasn't "sent only to the (spiritually) lost sheep of the house (the physical descendants) of Israel"?

Definitely not. Jesus died for all people. Anyone and everyone could turn to Him and He need not do anything further.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 15, 2018

Greg J. said:
Definitely not. Jesus died for all people. Anyone and everyone could turn to Him and He need not do anything further.

The church was called first out of physical Israel.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Your theme of the birthright promise was lost as you morphed into the scepter promise, as if those promises just disappeared. It's no different from the head scratching that occurs when considering the fate of the Jews (especially the Holocaust) when the prophetic curses against them are ignored.

Did you wish to elaborate a little more brother? I think the origin of the birth right was pretty well covered with the scriptures presented in post # 2 on the first page. The link to REVELATION was only an introduction to what was to follow showing God's ISRAEL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother

God bless.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 15, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Did you wish to elaborate a little more brother? I think the origin of the birth right was pretty well covered with the scriptures presented in post # 2 above. The link to REVELATION was only an introduction to what was to follow showing God's ISRAEL are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD. Thanks for sharing your thoughts brother

God bless.

You have to review the promises and prophecies concerning the birthright and scepter. They were granted to a certain family lines. The two are historical parallels but do cross each other in certain ways.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
You have to review the promises and prophecies concerning the birthright.

Thanks brother but that is shown in post # 2-3 isn't it?

OldWiseGuy · Dec 15, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Thanks brother but that is shown in post # 2-3 isn't it?

As I said it disappears as the subject turns to salvation.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Your theme of the birthright promise was lost as you morphed into the scepter promise, as if those promises just disappeared. It's no different from the head scratching that occurs when considering the fate of the Jews (especially the Holocaust) when the prophetic curses against them are ignored.

Speaking of holocaust, has anyone viewed this thread and this announcement by the leader in Israel concerning the holocaust being the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 ?

Prophecies of Ezekiel 37

In a stunning and remarkable moment, Netanyahu also declared to the people of Europe and the world that the prophecies of Ezekiel 37 have been fulfilled.

The Holocaust, he said, represented the "dry bones" and "graves" of the Jewish people, and out of that horror the State of Israel was resurrected, just as the Lord said would happen through the Hebrew Prophet Ezekiel.
Rarely has any world leader given a major address on an international stage declaring End Times prophecies from the Bible have come true. But that is exactly what Netanyahu did. - Joel Rosenberg
NTEB: God's Prophetical Promise To Return The Jews To Israel

I though this was relevant for Christians to read as a part of fulfillment of Biblical Prophecy.

The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

Achilles6129 said:
This thread is to discuss a relatively controversial subject: whether or not the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God upon the Jews. The question is a controversial one. Going into Scripture, we find examples of what God will do to the Jews if they disobey his commands:

"“‘And I will heap disasters upon them; I will spend my arrows on them; 24 they shall be wasted with hunger, and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence; I will send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom of things that crawl in the dust. 25 Outdoors the sword shall bereave, and indoors terror, for young man and woman alike, the nursing child with the man of gray hairs." Deut. 32:23-25 (ESV)

We clearly see in Scripture that God is not a God who is incompatible with a Holocaust. The main argument is actually not a Biblical one but rather a moral one: any God who would punish someone with something like the Holocaust is unjust and cruel. This is particularly true when considering the fact that many children died in the Holocaust and they could not have been in conscious rebellion against God.

I guess I could simplify this thread into three questions:

1) Do you believe that the Holocaust is incompatible with the revealed Scripture of the Judaeo-Christian God?

2) Do you believe that any God who would use the Holocaust as punishment is cruel?

3) Is it possible that the Holocaust was the wrath and judgment of God?

I'll leave the rest open. Thoughts?

.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
As I said it disappears as the subject turns to salvation.

Thanks for your thoughts brother but salvation is linked to ISRAEL who are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD - the Church. How can you saparate salvation to the identity of God's ISRAEL who salvation is with and for?

LoveGodsWord · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
But who but the Jews (the only 'Israel' at the time) stumbled over the advent of Christ? Paul was talking about the Jews, not the rest of Israel.

Are not the JEWS a part of ISRAEL? Actually, PAUL is talking to us today - the Church *2 TIMOTHY 3:16; MATTHEW 4:4. All of the scriptures are for God's Church. In the days of JESUS and the apostles their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. Everything we have in the NEW TESTAMENT comes from the OLD. Together these are the two great witnesses of the Word of God.

God bless.

Hieronymus · Dec 15, 2018

I said:
Only 144,000 eventually

Greg J. said:
A profound error that disregards many direct verses and indirectly "half" of Scripture in an attempt to explain a verse. No verse can be understood outside of the whole context of Scripture, which is all a revelation of God's nature.

Well, you're right.
I should have added "apparently" and maybe "at some point" rather than "eventually".
This is before the 1000 years under Christ.
I assume they will grow in numbers in those 1000 years.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 15, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Speaking of holocaust, has anyone viewed this thread and this announcement by the leader in Israel concerning the holocaust being the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37 ?

Prophecies of Ezekiel 37

The Holocaust: Was it the wrath and judgment of God?

.

Ezekiel 37 occurs in the millennium and involves all of Israel, not just the Jews. It is part of the second resurrection.

The other curses against the Jews are well known but largely ignored, and have yet to be lifted.

Hieronymus · Dec 15, 2018

Greg J. said:
Definitely not. Jesus died for all people. Anyone and everyone could turn to Him and He need not do anything further.

But it says that He did come for Jacob but they rejected Him and THAT is our (gentiles) blessing.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 15, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Thanks for your thoughts brother but salvation is linked to ISRAEL who are all those who BELIEVE and FOLLOW God's WORD - the Church. How can you saparate salvation to the identity of God's ISRAEL who salvation is for?

Sure, but the birthright promises are not the promise of general grace, but specific to the descendants of Israel.

Hieronymus · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Ezekiel 37 occurs in the millennium and involves all of Israel, not just the Jews. It is part of the second resurrection.

The other curses against the Jews are well known but largely ignored, and have yet to be lifted.

This touches on very controversial territory...
Jews and their Talmudic Judaism has caused a lot of the hate people have had for them.
I'm not buying the victim narrative anymore.
But it's off topic here, sorry..

OldWiseGuy · Dec 15, 2018

LoveGodsWord said:
Are not the JEWS a part of ISRAEL? Actually, PAUL is talking to us today - the Church *2 TIMOTHY 3:16; MATTHEW 4:4. All of the scriptures are for God's Church. In the days of JESUS and the apostles their bible was the OLD TESTAMENT scriptures. Everything we have in the NEW TESTAMENT comes from the OLD. Together these are the two great witnesses of the Word of God.

God bless.

Much of what is supposedly for all ages is really just history or instruction for that day.

OldWiseGuy · Dec 15, 2018

Hieronymus said:
This touches on very controversial territory...
Jews and their Talmudic Judaism has caused a lot of the hate people have had for them.
I'm not buying the victim narrative anymore.
But it's off topic here, sorry..

One has to understand what the Jews think of Christ. God isn't pleased.

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Ezekiel 37 occurs in the millennium and involves all of Israel, not just the Jews. It is part of the second resurrection.

The other curses against the Jews are well known but largely ignored, and have yet to be lifted.

OldWiseGuy said:
One has to understand what the Jews think of Christ. God isn't pleased.

NTEB: God's Prophetical Promise To Return The Jews To Israel
It appears a lot of Deuteronomy 28 was fulfilled in the holocaust of 70ad Jerusalem........
I wonder what PM B Netanyahu would say to this?......

Luke 21
22 That days of vengeance these are, of the to be fulfilled all the having been written, 23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be Great Distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
24 And they shall be falling to mouth of sword and they shall be being led captive into all the nations,
and Jerusalem will be trampled<3961> by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.”

Revelation 11:2
and the Court/fold<833>[water lavar/Altar of Sacrifice], without of the Sanctuary, be Casting-Out!<1544> out-side, and no it thou should be measuring, that it was given to the nations
and the holy City they shall be trampling<3961 forty two months.

Revelation 13:10
If any to-captivity into captivity is going away.
If any in sword to be killed, is binding him in sword to be killed.
Here is the endurance and the faith of the Saints.

Notice the captives of 70ad Jerusalem after the destruction and compare it with Deuteronomy 28. Pretty fascinating..:

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover................

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, .................
Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND.

........the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves,or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ;
whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.[Deuteronomy 28:68]

Deuteronomy 28:
15 If, however, you do not obey Yahweh thy Elohim by carefully following all His commandments and statutes I am giving you today,
all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

67 In the morning you will say, ‘If only it were evening!’ and in the evening you will say, ‘If only it were morning!’—because of the dread in your hearts of the terrifying sights you will see.
68 “And Yahweh will take you back to Egypt in ships, by the way of which I said to you, ‘You shall never see it again.'
And there you shall be offered for sale to your enemies as male and female slaves, but no one will buy you.”

.

LoveGodsWord · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
Sure, but the birthright promises are not the promise of general grace, but specific to the descendants of Israel.

Thanks for your thoughts brother. However I believe the scriptures provided in the OP (post # 2; 3 and 4) actually show that God's true purpose of ISRAEL is beyond the bloodline are they not? I know you do agree as you have already stated you believe God's ISRAEL in the NEW COVENANT are the Church so I still do not understand your point. Forgive my slowness. You may need to elaborate your throughts further. Thanks for sharing brother.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Dec 15, 2018

I assume by Israel you mean the Jews in general. I would say no, since they have not accepted the new covenant they are not within the New covenant community.

Greg J. · Dec 15, 2018

OldWiseGuy said:
The church was called first out of physical Israel.

Hieronymus said:
But it says that He did come for Jacob but they rejected Him and THAT is our (gentiles) blessing.

Which had nothing to do with how a person was saved at any point in time.

IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Wake me when it's soup.

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Wake me when it's soup.

Wake me when it's soup.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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