Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

ClementofA · Dec 12, 2018

Choir Loft said:
The Bible does not say every person will be saved.

Every son of Adam will be saved? What about the daughters? Are they condemned because they don't fit into your pagan myth? Your thinking is convoluted and confused.

JESUS answered this question in Luke 13:22-30

"Then Jesus traveled throughout the towns and villages, teaching as He made His way toward Jerusalem. “Lord,” someone asked Him, “will only a few people be saved?”

Jesus answered, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door. For many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able. After the master of the house gets up and shuts the door, you will stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’

But he will reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’

Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’

And he will answer, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you are from. Depart from me, all you evildoers.’

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth when you see Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves are thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will recline at the table in the kingdom of God. And indeed, some who are last will be first, and some who are first will be last.”

Luke 13:23-28
23 Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them,
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

That refers to the time of Christ's return & what happens then. It says nothing about final destiny or anyone being pointlessly, sadistically tortured or annihilated endlessly.

"Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(23) Are there few that be saved?--More accurately, that are being saved, or, that are in the way of salvation. The Greek participle is present, not perfect, and this sense should
be borne in mind..."

Luke 13:22-24 . . And he went through the cities and villages, teaching, and journeying toward Jerusalem. Then said one unto him, master, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them: Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35
Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

??? said:
Luke 13:24 explains the true meaning when Christ has shut up the door he has shut up your confusion. Luke 13:25

Does that say the door is shut forever? Compare:

Rev.21:25a Its gates will never be closed...

https://www.amazon.ca/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823

Der Alte · Dec 12, 2018

Choir Loft said:
begin

<CL>Actually there are several verses that refer to a temporary resurrection of sinners for the purpose of judgment. Principle among these is Revelation 20.
Read it.
The resurrection of the sinners is temporary. Sinners are resurrected for the purpose of being present at their judgment. Following final judgment, sinners are sentenced to the Second Death, the Lake of Fire - total annihilation.<end>

end

Please show me the verse in Rev 20 or any other chapter which states that anyone, anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LoF] then they are totally annihilated? The only activity I see being described in the LoF is tormenting.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

If we are to believe Rev 21:4-8 in vs. 4 "no more death", In vs. 8 several groups of people are thrown into the LoF which is [still] the second death.

Rev 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

CL said:
The principle of temporary resurrection is best demonstrated in the gospels in three incidents. The best known incident is that of Lazarus. The friend of Jesus was temporarily resurrected so as to demonstrate Jesus' power over death. Lazarus eventually died again.

Did Lazarus remain dead after his resurrection? Or did he die a second time? How about the other two resurrections in the NT? Do they die a second time?

CL said:
So it shall be unto those who refuse to accept Christ Jesus as their Lord and savior. They shall be sentenced to the Lake of Fire - permanent and absolute annihilation. FOREVER.
Forever means that the sentence of destruction will NOT be reversed. There are no second chances following divine judgment.
Wishes and arguments don't make it so. Neither do lies concocted out of thin air inspired by a spirit not of God.
REPENT. Now is the time to seek peace with God. There will not be another opportunity after death.
Most will not be saved because of foolishness like this 'delayed decision' theology.
that's me, hollering from the choir loft

CL said:
...

I'm still waiting for a verse which states that anyone/anything is thrown into the LoF then they die or are destroyed?

Jair Crawford · Dec 12, 2018

So far what I’ve gleaned from this discussion and biblical verses is that, some passages imply an anihhilationist depiction, while other passages imply ECT.

Choir Loft · Dec 13, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear choir boy:

The identical mass (the polus) "made sinners" in Adam1 are the polus "made righteous" in the Last, the Lord Jesus Christ!

“It is love alone in the holy Deity that will allow no peace to the wicked, nor ever cease its judgments till every sinner is forced to confess that it is good for him that he has been in trouble, and thankfully own that not the wrath but the love of God has plucked out that right eye, cut off that right band, which he ought to have done but would not do for himself and his own salvation.” – William Law

"It is claimed that it takes the iron out of Christianity because it removes the threat. No longer can the sinner be dangled over the pit of hell. No longer can what Burn’s called the “hangmen’s whip” of the fear of Hell be threateningly cracked over the sinner. But the kind of universalism in which I believe has not simply obliterated hell and said that everything will be all right for everyone; it has stated grimly that, if you will have it so, you can go to Heaven via Hell. – William Barclay-

No more let sin and sorrows grow,
Nor thorns infest the ground;
He comes to make His blessings flow
Far as the curse is found,
Far as the curse is found,
Far as, far as the curse is found.

The identical mass? What crowd do you refer to? Certainly not the denizens of planet earth.
The only mass you're spewing is something akin to bovine excrement.

How about quoting the Bible?

For Moses himself said, “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You are to listen to everything he tells you. Everyone who fails to listen to that prophet will be removed from the people and destroyed.”
- Acts 3:22

Again, only about one quarter of the earth's population claim to be Christian. Assuming that membership alone guarantees salvation, that still leaves out three quarters of the people of earth. Are you blind to the numbers or simply so persuaded of your Greek philosophy that you can't endure reality?

Notice the last word of Acts 3:22. The word is destroyed. According to Merriam-Webster dictionary 'destroyed' means to be put out of existence.

I'm using the Bible and a recognized authority on the English language not some pretentious Greek who's been imbibing too much Ouzo.

The Second Death, the destiny of the bulk of humanity, is the Lake of Fire where they will be totally and completely put out of existence. I'll add the word 'forever' just as the Bible does, meaning the destruction is irreversible.

The offer of immortal life, which alone is possessed by God, is made in the name of Jesus Christ, not William Law, not William Barclay, not Polus, not Plato and certainly not Ramasses.

The period of the offer is during life on earth. Following physical death the offer is impossible to make due to the immediate nature of Final Judgment.

Poetry won't save. Only the blood of Jesus Christ will save and then only those who accept it - according to the Law.

It is time to repent. Thinking one's self wise will only insure destruction.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Choir Loft · Dec 13, 2018

Jair Crawford said:
So far what I’ve gleaned from this discussion and biblical verses is that, some passages imply an anihhilationist depiction, while other passages imply ECT.

ECT?

Electroconvulsive Therapy?

Any argument can be made if scripture is taken out of context. Those that prefer to accept the pagan idea of hell do not consider the context of the entire Bible. They cannot logically explain how a loving God could also enjoy torturing people in a dungeon beneath the earth's crust (a location never mentioned in the Bible).

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

FineLinen · Dec 13, 2018

Choir Loft said:
The identical mass? What crowd do you refer to? Certainly not the denizens of planet earth.

Dear choir boy: you are so slow & your stay in the choir is short lived due to your discordant tone!

By entering through faith into what God has always wanted to do for us—set us right with him, make us fit for him—we have it all together with God because of our Master Jesus. And that’s not all: We throw open our doors to God and discover at the same moment that he has already thrown open his door to us. We find ourselves standing where we always hoped we might stand—out in the wide open spaces of God’s grace and glory, standing tall and shouting our praise.

There’s more to come: We continue to shout our praise even when we’re hemmed in with troubles, because we know how troubles can develop passionate patience in us, and how that patience in turn forges the tempered steel of virtue, keeping us alert for whatever God will do next. In alert expectancy such as this, we’re never left feeling shortchanged. Quite the contrary—we can’t round up enough containers to hold everything God generously pours into our lives through the Holy Spirit!

Christ arrives right on time to make this happen. He didn’t, and doesn’t, wait for us to get ready. He presented himself for this sacrificial death when we were far too weak and rebellious to do anything to get ourselves ready. And even if we hadn’t been so weak, we wouldn’t have known what to do anyway. We can understand someone dying for a person worth dying for, and we can understand how someone good and noble could inspire us to selfless sacrifice. But God put his love on the line for us by offering his Son in sacrificial death while we were of no use whatever to him.

Now that we are set right with God by means of this sacrificial death, the consummate blood sacrifice, there is no longer a question of being at odds with God in any way. If, when we were at our worst, we were put on friendly terms with God by the sacrificial death of his Son, now that we’re at our best, just think of how our lives will expand and deepen by means of his resurrection life! Now that we have actually received this amazing friendship with God, we are no longer content to simply say it in plodding prose. We sing and shout our praises to God through Jesus, the Messiah!

You know the story of how Adam landed us in the dilemma we’re in—first sin, then death, and no one exempt from either sin or death. That sin disturbed relations with God in everything and everyone, but the extent of the disturbance was not clear until God spelled it out in detail to Moses. So death, this huge abyss separating us from God, dominated the landscape from Adam to Moses. Even those who didn’t sin precisely as Adam did by disobeying a specific command of God still had to experience this termination of life, this separation from God. But Adam, who got us into this, also points ahead to the One who will get us out of it.

Yet the rescuing gift is not exactly parallel to the death-dealing sin. If one man’s sin put crowds of people at the dead-end abyss of separation from God, just think what God’s gift poured through one man, Jesus Christ, will do! There’s no comparison between that death-dealing sin and this generous, life-giving gift. The verdict on that one sin was the death sentence; the verdict on the many sins that followed was this wonderful life sentence. If death got the upper hand through one man’s wrongdoing, can you imagine the breathtaking recovery life makes, sovereign life, in those who grasp with both hands this wildly extravagant life-gift, this grand setting-everything-right, that the one man Jesus Christ provides?

Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life! One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn’t, and doesn’t, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it’s sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that’s the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life—a life that goes on and on and on, world without end.

FineLinen · Dec 13, 2018

“The Lord knows how to rescue/deliver the godly out of temptation and to reserve the unrighteous unto the day of judgement to be punished…” -2 Peter 2:9-

Punishment=Kolasis

Kolasis=

Correction.

Punishment.

Penalty.

Kolasis Rooted In Kolazo

Kolazo=

To lop or prune, as trees and wings.
To curb, check, restrain.
To chastise. To correct. Punishment .
To cause to be punished.

Correction=

Alteration that improves: An alteration that removes an error.

Punishment meant to improve: Punishment, especially meant to improve or reform the person punished.

Law treatment of offenders: The system of dealing with criminals by improvement, rehabilitation, parole, probation.

Treatment of a specific defect.

The act of offering an improvement to replace a mistake. Something substituted for an error.

A rebuke for making a mistake.

The act of punishing.

Removing of errors: The removing of errors from something or the indicating of errors in something.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Rectification/ modification/ adjustment/ amending.

Amendation.

Rectification.

Rectification=

To set right. To correct.

To purify.

To correct by removing errors.

To adjust.

A quantity applied by way of correcting.

The act or process of correcting.

Something that is substituted or proposed for what is wrong or inaccurate.

Amendation.

To correct something or make something right.

The act of rectifying or the fact of being rectified.

To correct by calculation or adjustment.

To adjust.

To fix/ repair/ remedy/ amend/ correct/ redress/ put to right/ to straighten/ to reform/ to adjust something.

The act of amending, correcting or setting right that which is wrong or erroneous.

“Vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”

Fitted= Katartizo=

To mend what has been broken or rent.

To repair.

To complete/ put in order/ to arrange/ to adjust.

To make one what he aught to be.

" In the Christian story God descends to reascend. He comes down;… down to the very roots and sea-bed of the Nature He has created. But He goes down to come up again and bring the whole ruined world up with Him. "-C.S. Lewis

Choir Loft · Dec 14, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear choir boy: you are so slow & your stay in the choir is short lived due to your discordant tone!
* * * *
Here it is in a nutshell: Just as one person did it wrong and got us in all this trouble with sin and death, another person did it right and got us out of it. But more than just getting us out of trouble, he got us into life! One man said no to God and put many people in the wrong; one man said yes to God and put many in the right.

All that passing laws against sin did was produce more lawbreakers. But sin didn’t, and doesn’t, have a chance in competition with the aggressive forgiveness we call grace. When it’s sin versus grace, grace wins hands down. All sin can do is threaten us with death, and that’s the end of it. Grace, because God is putting everything together again through the Messiah, invites us into life—a life that goes on and on and on, world without end.

You know not the Law. Consequently your perspective on grace, like most people in the post-modern church, is based on misplaced and incomplete understanding. (Proverbs 16:18)

It would be helpful if you had a modicum of faith in the ability of the Bible to instruct.

Scholars know that the Bible interprets itself. It's not necessary and is even counter-productive to quote Greek philosophy in order to establish an accurate understanding of scripture. All you have to do is read the Bible.

- Greek philosophy is subjective in nature, like building a house on sinking sand.
- The Law is objective in nature, a firm foundation upon which an undisturbed faith can be built.

SIN is not a mistake. Neither is it trouble.

"Behold, all souls are Mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is Mine. The soul who sins will die.
- Ezekiel 18:4

"The wages of sin is death."
- Romans 6:23a

Like many in the Post-modern church, your subjective philosophically based ideology relies too heavily on buzz words and religious slogans to be accurate. You're so busy quoting pointless phrases you don't see the meaning of the Law or the purpose of Grace. I fear I'm speaking over your head on this, but perhaps a tiny bit of it will sink in. I certainly hope so.

There's a big difference between a mistake and sin.

The Law defines SIN and reveals the nature of its judgment. There is no separation between Law and Grace, for without the Law grace could not be provided and without grace the Law would not be revealed.

If a boy is learning to ride a bicycle and falls off on his first few attempts, he has made a mistake. The boy did not SIN when he fell off his bicycle. He only made a mistake. He is not under sentence of death for falling from his bike. God blesses our mistakes by allowing us to learn from them. God curses our SIN by relegating it to total destruction. Either man will repent of SIN or he will be destroyed by it. One way or another, God will make an end to SIN.

The purpose of the Law is to convince us of SIN.

Knowledge of the Law shows us clearly and without error how grievous SIN is in the eyes of God. It tells us that God's view of it is so terrible that death is His answer to it. The wages of SIN isn't mere trouble. It is death!

The Law doesn't PRODUCE more lawbreakers as you've mistakenly written.

"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."
- Romans 3:23

All of us, like sheep, have strayed away. We have left God's paths to follow our own.
- Isaiah 53:6a

All mankind is guilty of SIN, but the Law begins the process of redemption by convincing us of that which God already knows - what SIN looks like and where it may be found in our lives.

The Law doesn't make more lawbreakers, it begins the process of redemption for lost humanity. The Law shows us the beginning of the path of salvation. The Law is not dead or destroyed as many believe. It is alive and well.

"I did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I came to fulfill it."
- Jesus as quoted by Matthew 5:17

Not knowing the Law, many ignorant Xians think they can live above it. The church has a form of godliness, but denies the power of it. (2 Timothy 3:5) Consequently the church is now under judgment. (1 Peter 4:17)

"All sin can do is threaten us with death," you've said. But it isn't SIN that threatens us, it's the Law that PROMISES death to those who continue in rebellion. It's God that judges SIN.

DEATH is not a threat. It's a promise.

Finally, the death a sinner suffers as the result of unrepentant SIN is eviction from the source of life itself. (Matthew 7:23) The absence of life, as any school child can tell you, is death.

Physical life ends in the grave. Spiritual life ends in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15) - the Second Death (Revelation 20:14).

Physical death is permanent and irreversible. So also is spiritual death. The Bible says the Second Death is forever, meaning there is no possibility for parole. The Bible doesn't suggest or imply there is a court of appeals for the condemned sinner. Final Judgment is final. Destruction is total complete and without reprieve.

Not for nothing is the Second Birth a gift of grace. Without it, according to the Law, redemption would be impossible - and few there are who avail themselves of the offer. (Luke 13:22-28)

I know this is a lot of information. If the church had not forsaken its duty to instruct its members in Christianity 101, we would not have to have this conversation. Unfortunately, the neglect of proper theological instruction is pandemic in America today. Like commercial slogans we get our religious beliefs from obsolete slogans and buzz words, which in turn have no meaning at all. This is why so many have fled the church.

I know this post may seem to make many unfamiliar assertions, but they are all Biblically based. Hopefully some of this may provide enlightenment.

On the other hand, you are free to reject what is written here and return to the darkness of your Greek philosophy - which cannot save BTW.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Pneuma3 · Dec 14, 2018

Choir Loft said:
You know not the Law.

hmmmm. that is more applied to you then to FL.

Tell me this, according to the law of sacrifice for sin made by the high priest, was it efficacious for ALL the Israelite's (the elect of God)?

If yes, and our answer must be yes according to scripture then tell me why Christ's atonement for us and not only for us but for the sin of the world is not efficacious for the world.

Do you believe, like the other poster I spoke to concerning this, that the blood of bulls is greater in its application for sin then the blood of Christ?

FineLinen · Dec 14, 2018

Choir Loft said:
You know not the Law.

Dear choir boy: I know the purpose of the Law of the Old Covenant is to bring us to Christ, the One who IS the propitiation for our sins & the sins of the whole broken and bruised mass "made sinners" in Adam1!

ClementofA · Dec 14, 2018

Choir Loft said:
How about quoting the Bible?

For Moses himself said, “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You are to listen to everything he tells you. Everyone who fails to listen to that prophet will be removed from the people and destroyed.”
- Acts 3:22

Again, only about one quarter of the earth's population claim to be Christian. Assuming that membership alone guarantees salvation, that still leaves out three quarters of the people of earth. Are you blind to the numbers or simply so persuaded of your Greek philosophy that you can't endure reality?

Notice the last word of Acts 3:22. The word is destroyed. According to Merriam-Webster dictionary 'destroyed' means to be put out of existence.

You left out some of the other meanings of "destroy" in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, including "ruin" & "kill": Definition of DESTROY

"Peter repeats this soon after, announcing the eventual restoration, in Acts 3:24: “all the prophets […] foretold these days,” that is, those of the universal apokatastasis. In the immediate continuation of Peter’s speech, the fulfilment of this prophecy is linked to the accomplishment of the promise made to Abraham, the benediction of all families of the earth in his progeny. Now, this will be accomplished in the eschatological times as well, and will be an action of God." (Ramelli, p.14, in the following).

Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Acts 3:21 whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all, of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age.

Psa.22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the families of the nations shall adore in his sight.

Der Alte · Dec 14, 2018

Choir Loft said:
begin

<<CL>...
DEATH is not a threat. It's a promise.
Finally, the death a sinner suffers as the result of unrepentant SIN is eviction from the source of life itself. (Matthew 7:23) The absence of life, as any school child can tell you, is death.
Physical life ends in the grave. Spiritual life ends in the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:15) - the Second Death (Revelation 20:14).
Physical death is permanent and irreversible. So also is spiritual death. The Bible says the Second Death is forever, meaning there is no possibility for parole. The Bible doesn't suggest or imply there is a court of appeals for the condemned sinner. Final Judgment is final. Destruction is total complete and without reprieve.<end>

end

The second death is mentioned only 4 times in the NT. And it is never said to be forever.
Revelation 2:11, Revelation 20:6, Revelation 20:14, Revelation 21:8

FL said:
begin

<FL>[1] If the church had not forsaken its duty to instruct its members in Christianity 101, we would not have to have this conversation. [2] Unfortunately, the neglect of proper theological instruction is pandemic in America today. [3] Like commercial slogans we get our religious beliefs from obsolete slogans and buzz words, which in turn have no meaning at all. [4] This is why so many have fled the church.<end>

end

You keep repeating these mantras over and over but you provide no evidence.

Choir Loft · Dec 15, 2018

Pneuma3 said:
Tell me this, according to the law of sacrifice for sin made by the high priest, was it efficacious for ALL the Israelite's (the elect of God)?

If yes, and our answer must be yes according to scripture then tell me why Christ's atonement for us and not only for us but for the sin of the world is not efficacious for the world.

Do you believe, like the other poster I spoke to concerning this, that the blood of bulls is greater in its application for sin then the blood of Christ?

I'll try to provide a quick answer. To get a specific notion of what is going on I really believe the reader needs to study the Bible. There is no substitute for it.

Q: Was the sacrifice for sin made by the high priest efficacious for all the Israelites? (The Bible does NOT call them the elect. It calls them the chosen - the oracle of God.(*) Big difference.)

A: NO and NO.
Except on rare occasions(*), the sin offering was NOT made by priests: high or low.
- It did NOT apply to those who did not come forward, according to the Law.
- It did NOT apply to those who did not ask, according to the Law.

The parallels to our current time ought to be obvious. Hebrews who wanted atonement for sin HAD to come forward PERSONALLY and bring their sacrifice with them, PERSONALLY. If they didn't there was no atonement for them. It was NOT automatic for them and it's NOT automatic for us. One HAS to come forward PERSONALLY to ask forgiveness. Ask not and get it not.

Here are details;

According to Leviticus, each family had to come forward themselves. Each family entered the inner court of the Tabernacle/Temple at its East gate (there was only one way in) and stopped at the first piece of furniture, the altar. Each family brought its own sacrifice, typically a bull, lamb or bird depending upon the situation (read Leviticus - there were specific reasons for each type of animal). Each family entered the court by the east gate ONLY and proceeded to the north side of the altar where they slew, skinned and dismembered the animal themselves. Priests were present to take certain parts of the animal for themselves, according to the Law. In other words, bringing presenting and slaying the animal sacrifice was an individual duty and work assuming of course that they wanted atonement in the first place. Ask not and get it not.

At the present time there remains only one way to enter the court of God to obtain atonement. Each person must still come themselves and bring the appropriate sacrifice with them. If nobody today asks for atonement today nobody gets it, according to the Law. Ask not and get it not.

Question #2 assumed a positive answer, which was not given. Therefore I skip this one.

Question #3 - Is the blood of bulls is greater in its application for sin then the blood of Christ?

A: The tense of your question is incorrect, but I'll answer it anyway. Your question ought to have been phrased - was the blood of bulls (and lambs, goats and birds) of permanent value?

The answer to my edited form of your question is NO. Why? The Law says so.

According to the Law, animal sacrifices had to be offered repeatedly and continually. Atonement by means of animal sacrifice was temporary, according to the Law.

Important points

This is why St. Paul, a Jew writing to Jewish believers in Yahweh (the Hebrew name of the Son of God), who knew about the Law's requirements of animal sacrifice, wrote two important points about the sacrifice of animals in Hebrews 8:13 and Hebrews 9:11-14. Read it!

The Law regarding the TEMPORARY atonement of animal blood was fulfilled by Yeshuah when He offered His own blood upon the cross. (Matthew 5:17) Again, the blood sacrifice by Yeshuah upon the cross is permanent since it was only necessary to be accomplished once.

It is applicable for anyone who personally approaches the throne of divine mercy, according to the Law, and who brings the sacrifice of Christ with them, according to the Law. In other words, one must believe the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to provide atonement for their sins. Finally, NO priest can do this on your behalf. You must do it yourself, according to the Law.

The difference between the terms Old Covenant and New Covenant is basically derived from the form of sacrifice for sin. The Old Covenant was based upon a temporary animal sacrifice, according to the Law. The New Covenant is based upon a permanent sacrifice by God Himself, according to the Law.

This is why Paul writes the old Law (about sacrifice for sin) is obsolete. It's been replaced by a new Law of permanent sacrifice for sin. Paul wrote that the old Law was passing away because at the time he wrote it animal sacrifices were still being performed. They were unnecessary and the practice passed away, exactly as Paul said it would.

We call this act of forgiveness, based upon the sacrifice of Yeshuah, grace.

Again, neither ancient Hebrew nor modern day man or woman, can obtain atonement for sins of and by themselves, according to the Law. We must go to God, bringing the appropriate sacrifice with us, to ask - by the Law. God's provision for atonement for sin, by the Law, is called grace. Grace is not lawLESSness. Grace is the full application of the Law for our undeserved benefit.

I hope this clears a few things up...

* * *

As an aside, the Xian church has generally distorted and usurped the Law for its own purposes. Some Xian churches appoint their own priests to repeatedly crucify Christ at every opportunity upon their altars and to claim by extension that they alone possess the right to forgive. Did Yeshuah die once or must He be re-murdered every Sunday morning at mass?

My question here is to ask, if Christ died once for the sins of all why then do Xian churches insist upon crucifying Him again upon their own altars for the exclusive forgiveness of their members only?

If Yeshuah died once for all, then why restrict the opportunity for all to ask?

Just asking......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
(*) "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance." - Hebrews 9:7

Notice the specific reference to sins committed in ignorance as well as the necessity to perform the offering every year. The annual work of the high priest had to be repeated, meaning it was temporary, according to the Law.

The meaning of the term "oracle of God" suggests that Hebrews were used of God to transmit His Word to all people in the form of the written revelation of the Word of God on paper. Please remember that all the apostles of Yeshuah were also Jews. All scripture was written by Jews in Hebrew with the exception of Luke who wrote two books only.

The words 'chosen' or 'oracle of God' implies an office, not a condition.
For example, a President is an office. Many men may be a president.

The word 'elect' implies a position, not an office or a condition.
For example, the Biblical position of 'elect' suggests a position of redemption granted by God, according to the Law. One is not of the 'elect' by way of Xian membership. It is determined by the blood sacrifice of Yeshuah and whether it is applied to the individual or not.

FineLinen · Dec 15, 2018

Dear choir boy: my friend Pneuma never reads his Bible, but he sings in a chord that is wonderful to hear!

LittleLambofJesus · Dec 15, 2018

ClementofA said:
You left out some of the other meanings of "destroy" in the Merriam-Webster dictionary, including "ruin" & "kill": Definition of DESTROY
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp.)

Psa.22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember, and shall be converted to the Lord: And all the families of the nations shall adore in his sight.

I have just recently started a thread on Luke and Matthew' "1 taken, the other left"..

What was interesting is this member brought up the word "destroy" and if you look at Luke 17:27, destroy is used in that verse [instead of "taken away" used in Matthew 24:39].
I could use some more views on the Noah and Lot events if any are interested.
Thanks and blessings,

MATT 24 LUKE 17 "ONE TAKEN AND ONE LEFT" DISCUSSION
Post #17 Luke 17:27

Long Beard said:
Isaiah 57:13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee; but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them: but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and shall inherit my holy mountain;
... and many more as "take away" is a Hebrew idiom for destroying something or someone...

Again, thanks very a nice informative post.

I found this to be of interest.

Luke's 70ad Jerusalem discourse actually mentions the Greek word for "destroy/ruin" #622 concerning that event:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

G622 (NKJV)

622. apollumi from 575 and the base of 3639;
to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
3639. olethros from a primary ollumi
(to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. death, punishment:--destruction.
G622 ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi), occurs 100 times in 86 verses

Luke 17:
26 “Just as it was in the days of Noah,† so it will be in the days of the Son of Man:
27 People went on eating, drinking, marrying and giving in marriage† until the day Noah boarded the ark,†
and the flood came and destroyed<622 apollumi> all.

A form of #622 is used for the "Destroyer" in Revelation 9:11.

Revelaton 9:11
and they are having of them a king the Messenger of the Abyss, name to him to Hebrew abaddwn <3>,
and in the Greecian name is having Destroyer<623 apolluwn>

The LXX uses a form of G622 concerning the Passover Destroyer in Exodus:

Exodus 12:23
And Yahweh passes to strike the Egyptians and He sees the blood on the lintel and on two of the jambs and Yahweh passes-over the portal
and not He shall allow the ruiner/destroyer/<1842 oleqreuonta> to come to houses of ye to strike.

Coincidentally, Titus started the siege of 70ad Jerusalem on the feast of the Passover!

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

At this critical and alarming conjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman army was approaching the City.
The Jews were petrified with astonishment and fear; there was no time for counsel, no hope of pacification, no means of flight:-- all was wild disorder and perplexity nothing to be expected from the Romans but signal and exemplary vengeance......

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized
POST #53 DAYS OF NOAH

.............

..............

.

Choir Loft · Dec 16, 2018

FineLinen said:
Dear choir boy: my friend Pneuma never reads his Bible, but he sings in a chord that is wonderful to hear!

What are you trying to say?

If your friend is singing a chord that God doesn't want to hear, then he is exercising his talent in a futile direction. He sings in an empty room. He may even be singing his own durge.

The purpose of the Bible and the Law within it is to get fallen humanity focused upon the Kingdom of God instead of themselves - God's Law instead of human sin. The Kingdom of God is not all inclusive because it has its own standards, forms of expression and goal. The wise seek it diligently. Fools mock it and are soon caught in a trap of their own making.

My posts were constructed in haste and brevity. Much more can be gleaned from a study of the Law and its application. I am speaking to the wise here. Fools refuse to consider any part of this conversation.

The post-modern church now suffers from centuries of subjective philosophical mind games.

Secular society changes its philosophy every ten to fifteen years and leaders of the Xian church feel they must adjust their philosophical approach to the gospel accordingly. As a result we often hear that the presentation of the gospel must be made relevant. It can never be relevant if subjective philosophy is used as a basis for understanding. That way lies a sort of mental quicksand. It swallows everything put in its way.

The Law never changes.

Members of the Xian church (*) are being sold a false god with feet of philosophical clay that changes with the winds of secular interest. The Law never changes. Failure to study the Law and how it applies to the gospel of Jesus Christ is a major disservice to one's self and fellow members of the faith.

The Law is good and permanent. Praise God for giving us His Torah (Law - 1st 5 books of the Bible). The wise will seek it. Fools rush away. The choice is given to all mankind - to gain immortal life through the blood of Jesus Christ or to be destroyed permanently and without possibility of reprieve.......according to the Law.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....

(*) My use of the term Xian is meant to convey the idea that the church no longer follows the Biblical Jesus. In the largest denominations, the human priesthood has displaced the savior with religious fabrications and ideological constructions that even their own theologians fail to understand. Smaller denominations suffer from economic and social pressures that either rip them apart or contribute to a form of spiritual debauchery. They do not represent the Man from Nazareth nor do they teach their members to seek God in any meaningful way. They seek only donations. They are Ichabod - Xian - apart from Christ and without the Law.

FineLinen · Dec 16, 2018

Choir Loft said:
What are you trying to say?

If your friend is singing a chord that God doesn't want to hear, then he is exercising his talent in a futile direction. He sings in an empty room.

Dear choir boy: I assure you, my friend Pneuma is singing a chord that delights the Father of all fathers. Perhaps if you were to consult a voice specialist your discordant tone can be enhanced.

From Him the all, thru Him the all, in Him the all

Pneuma3 · Dec 16, 2018

Choir Loft said:
I'll try to provide a quick answer. To get a specific notion of what is going on I really believe the reader needs to study the Bible. There is no substitute for it.

Q: Was the sacrifice for sin made by the high priest efficacious for all the Israelites? (The Bible does NOT call them the elect. It calls them the chosen - the oracle of God.(*) Big difference.)

A: NO and NO.
Except on rare occasions(*), the sin offering was NOT made by priests: high or low.
- It did NOT apply to those who did not come forward, according to the Law.
- It did NOT apply to those who did not ask, according to the Law.

The parallels to our current time ought to be obvious. Hebrews who wanted atonement for sin HAD to come forward PERSONALLY and bring their sacrifice with them, PERSONALLY. If they didn't there was no atonement for them. It was NOT automatic for them and it's NOT automatic for us. One HAS to come forward PERSONALLY to ask forgiveness. Ask not and get it not.

Here are details;

According to Leviticus, each family had to come forward themselves. Each family entered the inner court of the Tabernacle/Temple at its East gate (there was only one way in) and stopped at the first piece of furniture, the altar. Each family brought its own sacrifice, typically a bull, lamb or bird depending upon the situation (read Leviticus - there were specific reasons for each type of animal). Each family entered the court by the east gate ONLY and proceeded to the north side of the altar where they slew, skinned and dismembered the animal themselves. Priests were present to take certain parts of the animal for themselves, according to the Law. In other words, bringing presenting and slaying the animal sacrifice was an individual duty and work assuming of course that they wanted atonement in the first place. Ask not and get it not.

At the present time there remains only one way to enter the court of God to obtain atonement. Each person must still come themselves and bring the appropriate sacrifice with them. If nobody today asks for atonement today nobody gets it, according to the Law. Ask not and get it not.

Question #2 assumed a positive answer, which was not given. Therefore I skip this one.

Question #3 - Is the blood of bulls is greater in its application for sin then the blood of Christ?

A: The tense of your question is incorrect, but I'll answer it anyway. Your question ought to have been phrased - was the blood of bulls (and lambs, goats and birds) of permanent value?

The answer to my edited form of your question is NO. Why? The Law says so.

According to the Law, animal sacrifices had to be offered repeatedly and continually. Atonement by means of animal sacrifice was temporary, according to the Law.

Important points

This is why St. Paul, a Jew writing to Jewish believers in Yahweh (the Hebrew name of the Son of God), who knew about the Law's requirements of animal sacrifice, wrote two important points about the sacrifice of animals in Hebrews 8:13 and Hebrews 9:11-14. Read it!

The Law regarding the TEMPORARY atonement of animal blood was fulfilled by Yeshuah when He offered His own blood upon the cross. (Matthew 5:17) Again, the blood sacrifice by Yeshuah upon the cross is permanent since it was only necessary to be accomplished once.

It is applicable for anyone who personally approaches the throne of divine mercy, according to the Law, and who brings the sacrifice of Christ with them, according to the Law. In other words, one must believe the sacrifice of Christ is sufficient to provide atonement for their sins. Finally, NO priest can do this on your behalf. You must do it yourself, according to the Law.

The difference between the terms Old Covenant and New Covenant is basically derived from the form of sacrifice for sin. The Old Covenant was based upon a temporary animal sacrifice, according to the Law. The New Covenant is based upon a permanent sacrifice by God Himself, according to the Law.

This is why Paul writes the old Law (about sacrifice for sin) is obsolete. It's been replaced by a new Law of permanent sacrifice for sin. Paul wrote that the old Law was passing away because at the time he wrote it animal sacrifices were still being performed. They were unnecessary and the practice passed away, exactly as Paul said it would.

We call this act of forgiveness, based upon the sacrifice of Yeshuah, grace.

Again, neither ancient Hebrew nor modern day man or woman, can obtain atonement for sins of and by themselves, according to the Law. We must go to God, bringing the appropriate sacrifice with us, to ask - by the Law. God's provision for atonement for sin, by the Law, is called grace. Grace is not lawLESSness. Grace is the full application of the Law for our undeserved benefit.

I hope this clears a few things up...

* * *

As an aside, the Xian church has generally distorted and usurped the Law for its own purposes. Some Xian churches appoint their own priests to repeatedly crucify Christ at every opportunity upon their altars and to claim by extension that they alone possess the right to forgive. Did Yeshuah die once or must He be re-murdered every Sunday morning at mass?

My question here is to ask, if Christ died once for the sins of all why then do Xian churches insist upon crucifying Him again upon their own altars for the exclusive forgiveness of their members only?

If Yeshuah died once for all, then why restrict the opportunity for all to ask?

Just asking......

that's me, hollering from the choir loft....
(*) "But only the high priest entered the inner room, and then only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance." - Hebrews 9:7

Notice the specific reference to sins committed in ignorance as well as the necessity to perform the offering every year. The annual work of the high priest had to be repeated, meaning it was temporary, according to the Law.

The meaning of the term "oracle of God" suggests that Hebrews were used of God to transmit His Word to all people in the form of the written revelation of the Word of God on paper. Please remember that all the apostles of Yeshuah were also Jews. All scripture was written by Jews in Hebrew with the exception of Luke who wrote two books only.

The words 'chosen' or 'oracle of God' implies an office, not a condition.
For example, a President is an office. Many men may be a president.

The word 'elect' implies a position, not an office or a condition.
For example, the Biblical position of 'elect' suggests a position of redemption granted by God, according to the Law. One is not of the 'elect' by way of Xian membership. It is determined by the blood sacrifice of Yeshuah and whether it is applied to the individual or not.

Your mixing up individual sacrifices with Yom kipper in which the High priest alone entered into the Holy of holies and made atonement for ALL

Choir Loft · Dec 20, 2018

ClementofA said:
That refers to the time of Christ's return & what happens then. It says nothing about final destiny or anyone being pointlessly, sadistically tortured or annihilated endlessly.

"Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(23) Are there few that be saved?--More accurately, that are being saved, or, that are in the way of salvation. The Greek participle is present, not perfect, and this sense should
be borne in mind..."

Are there few that BE saved? Present tense. It does not speak of final destiny.

23 and a certain one said to him, `Sir, are those saved few?' (YLT)
23 And one said unto him, Lord, are they few that are saved? (NASB)
23 Now someone said to Him, "Lord, are few being saved? (CLV)
23 Said and one to him: O lord, are few those being saved? (Diaglott)

Jesus doesn't answer the question directly. He says many will seek to enter "at the straight gate" and shall not "be able". It seems they were trying to enter but, for some reason, didn't have the ability. Jesus does not say the "many" will *never* be able to enter or never be saved. To the contrary, Paul says "many", not few, shall be saved, by which He means all:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for ALL MANKIND for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for ALL MANKIND for life's justifying."
Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, THE MANY were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, THE MANY shall be constituted just."

Paul makes a parallel between "the many" who were condemned & sinners and those who will be justified & constituted just.

“In Romans 5, the justification is co-extensive with the condemnation. Since all share in one, all share in the other. If only a certain portion of the human race had partaken of the sin of Adam, only a certain portion would partake of the justification of Christ. But St. Paul affirms all to have been involved in one, and all to be included in the other.”

Therefore there is salvation after death. And corrective punishment.

Jesus shall see of the travail of His soul & be satisfied. Not satisfied a little bit, but the vast majority fried alive forever.

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities." (Isa.53:11).

For how "many" (not few) did He "bear their iniquities"? All.

We might also want to consider these passages in the same book of Luke's gospel:

Fear not, said the angel who announced it, for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people. Luke 2:10.
Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. Luke 2:14.
Luke 3:5 Every valley shall be filled,
and every mountain and hill shall be made low,
and the crooked shall be made straight,
and the rough ways made smooth;
Luke 3:6 and all flesh shall see the salvation of God.’”
Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised.
But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Luke 6:35
Luke 15:3 And he spake this parable unto them, saying, 4What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
Luke 15:8 Either what woman having ten pieces of silver, if she lose one piece, doth not light a candle, and sweep the house, and seek diligently till she find it?
Lk17:4 Even if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times returns to say, ‘I repent,’ you must forgive him.”

Does that say the door is shut forever? Compare:

Rev.21:25a Its gates will never be closed...

https://www.amazon.ca/Her-Gates-Will-Never-Shut/dp/1606088823

Revelation 21 speaks to the just, since sinners have already been destroyed.
Do you leave the door to your home open always? Perhaps not, because sinners abound and doors are meant to keep them out.

On the other hand, why don't you just go ahead and leave your doors wide open. Tell us what happens then.......

Your scripture quotes from Luke serve no purpose to support or detract from the specific issue at hand;

ONLY GOD IS IMMORTAL

“who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light” - 1 Timothy 6:16

The Bible nowhere says otherwise. I challenge anyone to prove that someone or something else is immortal by use of Bible text. You can't because it isn't there. References to secular pagan myth and philosophy is meaningless because it doesn't agree with scripture.

MAN IS MORTAL

Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3a

Only a person who wishes to promote doctrines of demons would blatantly argue against physical evidence that fills cemeteries. Only a person who hates the Word of God would debauch and dilute its message of spiritual mortality. Appeals to secular philosophy and ancient myths were invented by a nation that God destroyed. The truth of the Bible stands forever. Man is mortal. Man dies. Only fools, con artists and liars would have us believe otherwise.

Joshua 24:15 presents a choice - to choose whom one will serve, God or the fantasies of self-delusion and the false gods of the opposer.

JESUS CHRIST speaks plainly and openly in Matthew 7:14 when He tells everyone "small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

I don't know about the rest of the world, but I personally believe that JESUS CHRIST is an authority on the subject. Attempts to promote some other gospel are cursed, both upon those that believe it and those who promote it. In Genesis 3:1 the serpent speaks to Eve and accuses God of lying about life and death and obedience and choices to be made. The servants of satan continue to do so to this very day !!!

SIN is in the world. All are guilty (Romans 3:23) and are condemned to death - spiritual death as well as physical death. It is the nature of man to die (Genesis 6:3a) because the wages of SIN is death (Romans 6:23). Those that refuse to repent of their SIN are judged and sentenced to spiritual and physical destruction.

For Moshe himself said, “Adonai will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your brothers. You are to listen to everything he tells you. Everyone who fails to listen to that prophet will be removed from the people and destroyed.” - Acts 3:22

Who is THAT PROPHET? Yesahua ha-mashiach, Jesus Christ of Nazareth. Is Moses now a liar as well as the Father and the Son? May it never be.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ETERNAL EVERLASTING SIN.

The Bible NEVER suggests or implies the existence of eternal everlasting sin, but those who believe in Hell think so. God is not a socio-path who enjoys eternal torture. The Bible says He is merciful even unto SINNERS who reject Him. He sentences them to death. Which of us, who has owned and loved a pet for many years will not respond to a terminal condition and give the animal a merciful relief in the arms of death?

God has demonstrated in the Bible as well as in history that He intends to eradicate SIN totally. By totally, the Bible suggests that even the ashes of the condemned are consumed. When Adonai rained death and destruction upon the Kingdom of Sodom there weren't even any ashes left. So it teaches us and so it shall be for the sinners. Not even the ashes of their destruction will be left as a reminder of their short tenure upon this planet.

The mercy of Adonai offers mankind the opportunity to repent and to live according to His righteous Law. His mercy also requires Him to annihilate those who refuse to part with their SIN and rebellion. God intends to put an end to SIN one way or the other. The Bible NEVER says that God intends to promote the continuation of SIN forever. Never.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS ETERNAL EVERLASTING SIN.

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A LICENSE TO SIN.

It is time to repent of SIN. Those that promote excuses or fake license to continue in it by suggesting they can change their hearts later, after death, are selling snake oil to the gullible and the simple minded. The Lake of Fire destroys all that are thrown into it forever. Forever means no court of appeals, no remedial college course to take, no opportunity to repent - ever.

The Bible says SIN is to be destroyed totally and utterly. Those that attest otherwise are promoting lies of the devil. Do you not know that God will hold you responsible for promoting a gospel not in accord with the context of the entire Bible?

The real issue here isn't Bible clips and quotes. The real issue is a false secular philosophy being promoted in opposition to the context of the Holy Bible. There is no contest here because the Law of God stands forever. Philosophy changes with the wind.

It is time to repent. Now.

Only the just, the forgiven, those of the Second Birth, will inherit eternal life. The Bible does not say SINNERS will get a thing - even what they have will be taken from them.

that's me, hollering from the choir loft...

Der Alte · Dec 20, 2018

Choir Loft said:
...
Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal;
- Genesis 6:3...

The word translated "mortal" in Gen 6:3 does not mean mortal. It means,

flesh (from its freshness); by extension body, person; also (by euphemism) the pudenda of a man: - body, [fat, lean] flesh [-ed], kin, [man-] kind, + nakedness, self, skin.

It is translated as "flesh" in the 1917 Jewish Publishing Society translation of the OT. It is translated as σάρκας/sarkas, "flesh" in the 225 BC Septuagint.

Why are so many Christians against annihilation in hell when scripture supports it?

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Active Member

Active Member

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Active Member

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Similar threads